Static Defense In Ns
Pege
Join Date: 2002-11-27 Member: 10088Members
Join Date: 2002-11-27 Member: 10088Members
<div class="IPBDescription">How do you feel?</div> I was reading through Beta Information when I came across a topic named "Linear Hive Building". In it I found good discussion, but there were some posts which made me quite nervous. Savant stated that:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->OCs and turrets HAVE to be an alternative to player defense since you can't be everywhere on the map at all times. No one is suggesting that an OC or turret defense should be so strong that a player cannot breach it, but it SHOULD be a lethal defense or there is no reason to have it in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This argument got me thinking about static defense in NS and it’s purpose. I’ve never had problems with marine sentry farms, because I’ve always been able to get around them (skulks can use vents, roof, high speed etc. to get around just about any defense). Destroying them hasn’t been a big problem, because I’ve always tried to find a blind spot at the TF or created one if necessary. If I have been alone, I have asked gorge/s to set up a small 2-DC outpost or asked another skulk to help me take out some sentries. I’ve liked the way NS handles marine defense from the first days I started playing… With NS 2.0, marines can electrify TFs so skulks can’t take them out so easily, but gorges on the other hand can use bilebomb, heal nearby aliens, build hives, RTs, upgrades etc. so there shouldn’t be a problem.
With aliens’ static defense my story is entirely different. When I first saw a WoL, I thought ”Whoa, this doesn’t look… natural”. I considered it to be somesort of an exploit from day one judging by how silly it looked. People were cursing all over the place how they got stuck in a WoL with an onos and NSPlayers were screaming how lame WoLs were since they couldn’t get past them or take them out with their LMGs. Everyone was new and hated WoLs. This is probably why they were named "Walls of Lame" and that name still doesn't bring warm feeling of love to my heart.
Many times I have been near a WoL setting a siege base when some unlucky skulk has come across, got shot, told his friends and soon every skulk around the map has come to slaughter us (without PGs, marines can’t reinforce bases well). Just a few days ago I had JP/GL and 2 JP/LMG friends and I was supposed to play an inter-galactic bulldozer yet again. I unloaded 30 granades to a WoL, but it just didn’t die because of too many DCs around and a gorge healing. Then skulks came and killed me and my friends. Every shot with the GL wasn’t direct, but they all landed at least next to the WoL. Aliens’ WoLs have always brought a half-complete feeling of NS, like the mod wasn’t complete at all and this was a large bug in need of a fix. I mean, I and many others (judging by people swearing and exiting) don’t find it very fun if aliens block Foreboding lift with OCs when we really need to get a HA/HMG squad to Powersilo or put a WoL to Mess Hall and practically pin marines down to 2 RTs, because Auxiliary is so perfect skulk terrain.
My opinion of static defense has always been that it should be a way to slow down, not kill or halt completely. It’s purpose is purely to give a warning and hold an area for a while (like an RT). It isn’t even supposed to be able to cope with a single lvl 0 LMG marine getting a medpack every now and then. It takes a player to kill a player. It isn’t supposed to hold on it’s own against a single soldier forever (although a very long time if there are multiple OCs). In my opinion, that is exactly what is wrong with aliens’ static defense now. I’ve always thought that the marine equivalent of a WoL is not a sentry farm, but a CC wall with a welder guy behind (both look kind of silly and are impossible to get past without nearly whole team or high tech). I’ve found killing aliens far more exciting and fun than crouching next to a corner and unloading a LMG clip after clip with a teammate or two only to be killed when reloading. Structure destroying is one of the most boring features of NS: nowadays people don’t even bother (except me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->) to destroy marine CC when they have relocated or when marine base has been destroyed and the last survivor is walking around the map. In RTS games where you can build heavy defense structures, your soldiers don’t whine if they have to spend 30 minutes destroying some godforsaken bunker on their way to enemy base. In NS real people have to play the bulldozers and spend their time being crouched and shooting a ”wall”. The cheap cost of OC comes from it’s ability to buy TIME and give minor harm, not because it’s supposed to be an efficient killer. The GL, in my opinion, has to be a very quick way of cutting trough any number of static defense, even if one LA marine can jump over it and take little damage (but a HA probably can’t get trough 8 OCs without taking serious damage and requiring a weld).
This is my opinion of static defense. It should under no circumstances be deadly on it's own or an efficient map blocker giving other team map control. Gorges naturally find it fun to get easy kills without risk from WoLs just as marines like getting easy kills from mines, but this kind of playing should not be encouraged by boosting up OCs. Any differing thoughts?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->OCs and turrets HAVE to be an alternative to player defense since you can't be everywhere on the map at all times. No one is suggesting that an OC or turret defense should be so strong that a player cannot breach it, but it SHOULD be a lethal defense or there is no reason to have it in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This argument got me thinking about static defense in NS and it’s purpose. I’ve never had problems with marine sentry farms, because I’ve always been able to get around them (skulks can use vents, roof, high speed etc. to get around just about any defense). Destroying them hasn’t been a big problem, because I’ve always tried to find a blind spot at the TF or created one if necessary. If I have been alone, I have asked gorge/s to set up a small 2-DC outpost or asked another skulk to help me take out some sentries. I’ve liked the way NS handles marine defense from the first days I started playing… With NS 2.0, marines can electrify TFs so skulks can’t take them out so easily, but gorges on the other hand can use bilebomb, heal nearby aliens, build hives, RTs, upgrades etc. so there shouldn’t be a problem.
With aliens’ static defense my story is entirely different. When I first saw a WoL, I thought ”Whoa, this doesn’t look… natural”. I considered it to be somesort of an exploit from day one judging by how silly it looked. People were cursing all over the place how they got stuck in a WoL with an onos and NSPlayers were screaming how lame WoLs were since they couldn’t get past them or take them out with their LMGs. Everyone was new and hated WoLs. This is probably why they were named "Walls of Lame" and that name still doesn't bring warm feeling of love to my heart.
Many times I have been near a WoL setting a siege base when some unlucky skulk has come across, got shot, told his friends and soon every skulk around the map has come to slaughter us (without PGs, marines can’t reinforce bases well). Just a few days ago I had JP/GL and 2 JP/LMG friends and I was supposed to play an inter-galactic bulldozer yet again. I unloaded 30 granades to a WoL, but it just didn’t die because of too many DCs around and a gorge healing. Then skulks came and killed me and my friends. Every shot with the GL wasn’t direct, but they all landed at least next to the WoL. Aliens’ WoLs have always brought a half-complete feeling of NS, like the mod wasn’t complete at all and this was a large bug in need of a fix. I mean, I and many others (judging by people swearing and exiting) don’t find it very fun if aliens block Foreboding lift with OCs when we really need to get a HA/HMG squad to Powersilo or put a WoL to Mess Hall and practically pin marines down to 2 RTs, because Auxiliary is so perfect skulk terrain.
My opinion of static defense has always been that it should be a way to slow down, not kill or halt completely. It’s purpose is purely to give a warning and hold an area for a while (like an RT). It isn’t even supposed to be able to cope with a single lvl 0 LMG marine getting a medpack every now and then. It takes a player to kill a player. It isn’t supposed to hold on it’s own against a single soldier forever (although a very long time if there are multiple OCs). In my opinion, that is exactly what is wrong with aliens’ static defense now. I’ve always thought that the marine equivalent of a WoL is not a sentry farm, but a CC wall with a welder guy behind (both look kind of silly and are impossible to get past without nearly whole team or high tech). I’ve found killing aliens far more exciting and fun than crouching next to a corner and unloading a LMG clip after clip with a teammate or two only to be killed when reloading. Structure destroying is one of the most boring features of NS: nowadays people don’t even bother (except me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->) to destroy marine CC when they have relocated or when marine base has been destroyed and the last survivor is walking around the map. In RTS games where you can build heavy defense structures, your soldiers don’t whine if they have to spend 30 minutes destroying some godforsaken bunker on their way to enemy base. In NS real people have to play the bulldozers and spend their time being crouched and shooting a ”wall”. The cheap cost of OC comes from it’s ability to buy TIME and give minor harm, not because it’s supposed to be an efficient killer. The GL, in my opinion, has to be a very quick way of cutting trough any number of static defense, even if one LA marine can jump over it and take little damage (but a HA probably can’t get trough 8 OCs without taking serious damage and requiring a weld).
This is my opinion of static defense. It should under no circumstances be deadly on it's own or an efficient map blocker giving other team map control. Gorges naturally find it fun to get easy kills without risk from WoLs just as marines like getting easy kills from mines, but this kind of playing should not be encouraged by boosting up OCs. Any differing thoughts?
Comments
They could have eliminated this tactic altogether by requiring structures to be based so far apart from each other. Since they didn't do that, I can only assume the ability of gorges to seal off hive rooms by building defs side-by-side with OCs in front of and on top of them is considered by the developers to be a perfectly valid tactic. Any other defense style is certianly frowned upon by veteran teammates.
I'd like to remind you that a squad of 4 or more stock marines, a patient HMGer, or a single Seige Cannon can whittle down a Wall of Lame in relatively short order.
I'd like to remind you that a squad of 4 or more stock marines, a patient HMGer, or a single Seige Cannon can whittle down a Wall of Lame in relatively short order. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I wasn't really suggesting that they would be nerfed any more. Just that they aren't boosted from the state they are in (in 2.0 that is). <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
A squad of 4 or more marines is so large it's pretty unforgiving if such a squad could ever get near a hive without anyone noticing. The absence of WoLs (and weak static defense overall) promotes more stealthy surprise attacks and forces aliens to leave at least some 200 ping skulk near their hive to check out if theres a squad coming. A WoL is a pretty sure way to remove any surprise in 1.04 , because it's so strong you'll have plenty of time to gather your entire team for counter-attack.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just a few days ago I had JP/GL and 2 JP/LMG friends and I was supposed to play an inter-galactic bulldozer yet again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Count up how much res was invested in you and your friends. Then count up how much is invested in a typical WOL. Add a 13 res gorge (with adrenaline possibly ? ) and you can see why you couldn't (and shouldn't I might add) take that WOL down.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They limited the number of alien structures that could be built in an area to reduce the overwhelming power of alien WOLs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There has always been a limit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It isn’t even supposed to be able to cope with a single lvl 0 LMG marine getting a medpack every now and then.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't it ? Why not ? Again, if you think a 100+ res WOL should be able to be taken down by a 0 res marine getting an occasional 2 res medpack, you're not seeing the bigger picture.
Isn't it ? Why not ? Again, if you think a 100+ res WOL should be able to be taken down by a 0 res marine getting an occasional 2 res medpack, you're not seeing the bigger picture. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it's a TIME investment, not a kill investment! Which is exactly my point. A WoL will buy aliens time to assemble/spawn against a single lvl 0 LMG marine. The marine will destroy it <b>eventually</b> unless even one skulk notices their structure is under attack and bothers to go and kill. The bigger WoL you build, the more time you have to react. In 1.04 you don't even have a theoretical chance to destroy a WoL with one LMG nor even jump over it. If you could jump over it and there wasn't anyone guarding, you could get past just like a skulk who can run past a sentry farm. This is stealth. This is also what whole static defense in NS in my opinion should be about. Buying time and supporting, not to produce casualties. Skulks are for killing marines, not OCs.
P.S. I'm not going to argue whether it's truly "lame" or not. It's just one overpowered strategy overshadowed by even more overpowered strategies (like JP/HMG).
My conclusion is that WoLs are fine. They are certainly not overpowered, I don't see them quite as much anymore, and if the marines want them to go down, they go down unless the aliens do something about it. Np here.
Originally, Wall of Lame = a large wall of Offensive Chambers with a large amount of Defensive Chambers backing it up AND was in the proximity of 1 or more siege cannons. Having a wall of ocs did not make it lame, what made this setup 'lame' was that the siege cannons would keep hitting the wall, causing a shockwave that would hurt either team that approaches it (keep in mind that siege cannons before did not require scanning or a line of sight to shoot stuff AND that FF=on). After the siege cannons did their damage, the obscene amount of defence chambers would heal the 'wall' back to full heal in a matter of seconds, and the cycle repeats itself. What made this wall 'lame' was the fact that it effectively locks that section of the map from BOTH teams.
just some background info for you young'uns <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT: Anyway, WOLs aren't really lame anymore, don't be fooled by the name. It's just something that stuck to it even after the problem was solved.
This was due to DC's and the way they healed things. Code was added to keep DC's from healing themselves and to limit the number of structures they could heal at once. True WOL's haven't been seen since. The were termed "lame" because you needed more sieges than DC's in order for the sieges to gain any ground. This has changed now and one skilled GL user can pretty much decimate a WOL today.
On a side note I feel that the Marine equivilent to WOL's is not Turret farms but mass minings.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Imagine on tanith your team of 6 would simply evolve 4 gorges and within the first two minutes every exit on the marine start would be blocked off. By the time marines reacted with a siege the aliens would have map dominance and the marine tech would be screwed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That can happen now. On bast a group of two gorges built 4 OCs by the rotating door. With 2 skulks assisting they were able to lock down that entrance. What the OCs didn't kill the skulks did. (with heal spray.) The marines eventually sieged.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Compare that to the marines rushing to Maintenance and building an armory at South Loop or at the upper entrance, and covering the floors/walls with mines. The results are the same.
I've never seen a true WoL then <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Best one I've ever seen was a WoL that lasted against 4 sieges, but the 5th took it down. Couldn't you just build so many sieges the WoL will either go down or the server crashes?
There is a vent/s leading from Maintenance to South Loop to stop that as far as I know. I think they gave every hive a vent. Not sure if they are all unreachable by marines.
There is a vent/s leading from Maintenance to South Loop to stop that as far as I know. I think they gave every hive a vent. Not sure if they are all unreachable by marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats gonna be in the 2.0 version of Eclipse by all accounts, it's not in the current 1.04 build.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to add insult to the crazy healing goin on, siege and GL damages vs. structures was borked in pre 1.04 versions, obviously magnifying the problem somewhat <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Static defense are supposed to delay the enemy and keep them from reaching/destroying the primary targets. They are effective against large masses ONLY when an inordinate amount of res is spent on making the defenses. They give the advantage to the defending team if players on both sides are at the scene.
Size also has to be taken into account. There's a difference between 10 OCs and 1 fictitious "super OC" that has deals the same damage as the former.
Static defense are supposed to delay the enemy and keep them from reaching/destroying the primary targets. They are effective against large masses ONLY when an inordinate amount of res is spent on making the defenses. They give the advantage to the defending team if players on both sides are at the scene.
Size also has to be taken into account. There's a difference between 10 OCs and 1 fictitious "super OC" that has deals the same damage as the former.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose I am a fan of the softer system, since hard counters tend to be very detrimental fun-wise. Being the "paper" unit and fighting against the "scissor" unit is not much fun. In an FPS/RTS game like NS, players should always matter more than structures or auto-defenses. I don't really like the idea of static defense so strong it equals a player in efficiency. Those kind of static defense are not very enjoyable to fight against, since you don't get the pleasure of killing like you get when killing players (sounds a bit sadistic, but it's a fun-thing. Honest! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->).
Eh. Ok, I just can't see the problem here. Aliens found out (good information) what you were doing and stopped it by using teamwork. If you had built a PG as you said, you might have made it, and now it is the games fault that you didn't build one?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just a few days ago I had JP/GL and 2 JP/LMG friends and I was supposed to play an inter-galactic bulldozer yet again. I unloaded 30 granades to a WoL, but it just didn’t die because of too many DCs around and a gorge healing. Then skulks came and killed me and my friends. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A skilled and hyperactive gorge with adrenaline might help prolong a WoL's life against a GL, but correctly used a single GL can take down any and all WoL's.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I mean, I and many others (judging by people swearing and exiting) don’t find it very fun if aliens block Foreboding lift with OCs when we really need to get a HA/HMG squad to Powersilo or put a WoL to Mess Hall and practically pin marines down to 2 RTs, because Auxiliary is so perfect skulk terrain.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to be rude but if your friends don't think it is fun to be pinned down and limited to 2 RT's, maybe they should play better and not let the Aliens domaniate you tactically. Seriously, build a damn Siege Cannon.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My opinion of static defense has always been that it should be a way to slow down, not kill or halt completely.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that is exactly how it works right now. Maybe what you mean is that it should slow it down less right now. Anything but a totally absurd amount of resources spent on static defense (max OC/DC = 224 res) will only server to slow down a competent player or team. Siege Cannons make short work of any Alien defenses and if Aliesn get at least 2 hives they can break through any Marine resource investment as well, with 3 hives it's so easy it's not even funny (Onos and Bile Bombs).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It isn’t even supposed to be able to cope with a single lvl 0 LMG marine getting a medpack every now and then.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course. It makes sense that a 0 res investment such as a Marine with a LMG who gets a couple of 2 res drops should be able to take down an unlimited amount of defense. Not. And in actuality, it is still a fact most of the time. If a COM drops ammo and health a LMG Marine can take down anything but an extreme fortification himself, given enough time. Boring? Yeah. So it should be both quick and fun to take down a static defense that the opponent spent immense resources as well as time to put up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It takes a player to kill a player. It isn’t supposed to hold on it’s own against a single soldier forever (although a very long time if there are multiple OCs). In my opinion, that is exactly what is wrong with aliens’ static defense now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It takes an incompetent player to get killed by defense structures as it is right now. You should know better then to get killed by them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Any differing thoughts? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Plenty.
I was fooled by the length and proper spelling of the post but after reading it I see not a single valid argument. I've quoted the main points and argued against them. I am of the diametrically opposite opinion of the original author. To me, static defense is what makes this game about strategy and not just teamwork and shooter skills. There was a time when Siege Cannons didn't function properly and WoL's were all but indestructible, but that was fixed. Now, it works perfectly. You're basically arguing for a deathmatch game with some alternative obstacle courses.
Building a good and strategically useful static defense is a matter of intelligence, teamwork and skill. An investment that should pay off. The scenarios described above wreaks of marine incompetence. Can't hold an outpost lonng enough to get a sige up, blame the game. Can't destroy a WoL with JP/GL, blame the game. Can't figure out that a siege placed outside Mess Hall will clear it, THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE GAME!
Lastly, what's the point? 2.0 is due out soon and if anything, it has been made more static-defense friendly. OC's and Turrets cost less, TF's can be elctrified. Does not this tell you something? The whole idea of the game is tactics and strategy, and static defenses are an integral part of that.
Its called a supply depot wall w/ bunkers behind filled w/ marines and maybe seige mode'd seige tanks. It costs a very large amount of res, yes, however like in the current (and future) versions of NS it has a weakness.
In NS the WOL's weakness is the GL attacking the DCs or highly concentrated fire.
In SC the Supply Depot wall can be taken out with ease from long-range air units OR seiges attacking the Supply depots either forcing the player to come out or bust the wall; the tanks die first, then the supply wall, then the bunkers w/ the units inside of them. Corsair can use its disruption web, Guardians can make quick work of any static defense, and the Yamoto Cannon on the BC or cloaked wraiths can all easilly take out the supply depot wall.
Now, also, lets take a look at the claimed point that it should be taken out by a single freebie/near freebie unit. Riiight. A single marine runs into a single sunken colony; the colony still stands after taking very minor damage which it heals quickly. A single zergling runs into a bunker filled with marines; the zergling is cut to shreds and does no damage. The same as in NS. A single skulk cannot take out a turret farm; a single marine cannot take down a WOL (unless that marine has a GL)
Yes, the defences are meant to slow strong units; but since it slows strong units it suggests it KILLS weak units! Think about it! If you have 500 HP and you're slowed by it, something with 70 HP is gonna die very quickly! i just think someone had a bad experiance... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Although I didn't mean this thread to be about "WoL or not to WoL" I can say that the map where I failed to destroy a "WoL" with my GL was ns_caged. I was going from Sewer Vestibule Sublevel resource nozzle towards Sewer hive with my teammates as we stumbled upon the joyful WoL at the pipe. You see, if you put the DCs to the other end of the pipe where the big room next to Sewer is, nobody can spam granades there. Then put the OCs to the pipe leading to the resource nozzle and tadaa: marines go siege or don't go this way. Asking our commander to put a siege with his nearly destroyed economy would have been unreasonable so I decided to try to the GL. I don't know how many DCs he had hidden there, but it was enough to stop us.
As for Stoneburg, I got this feeling of hurting you deeply (don't ask me how) so please accept my most sincere apologies if this is the case. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Eh. Ok, I just can't see the problem here. Aliens found out (good information) what you were doing and stopped it by using teamwork. If you had built a PG as you said, you might have made it, and now it is the games fault that you didn't build one?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Noooo, I didn't say "it is the games fault". Please re-read.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A skilled and hyperactive gorge with adrenaline might help prolong a WoL's life against a GL, but correctly used a single GL can take down any and all WoL's.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Put the DCs/OCs around a corner and it's harder. One alien skulk backing up the WoL and attacking the GLer and it's 10x harder.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And that is exactly how it works right now. Maybe what you mean is that it should slow it down less right now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One could see it as a "slowdown", but I see it more as a "halt" in 1.04. I do mean it should slow down "less" than now if you like to thing a WoL is only a slowdown.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It takes an incompetent player to get killed by defense structures as it is right now. You should know better then to get killed by them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, umm, you jump over 5-6 OCs without getting killed? I know I can maybe get over them but I'll be shot in the back and die. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As a skulk I haven't died to sentries for ages (nor seen them), but they are not really in comparison with OCs, since avoiding sentries as a skulk is so easy compared to how easy it is to avoid OCs as a marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So it should be both quick and fun to take down a static defense that the opponent spent immense resources as well as time to put up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey! You got it! People play for fun! And the less time you spend holding your Fire key and pointing a wall, the more time for the actual fun stuff you have! Yippee! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes, of course, OCs should by built faster than they are destroyed (they cost 5 RP in 2.0 afterall!). With the limit of OCs currently in, gorges can't spam so many OCs it would take 30 minutes for marines to reach the hive. When marines really attack with HA/HMG/GL, they "should" go to the hive fast and static defense shouldn't have chance to do anything to stop it. It then needs strong alien counter-force. This is what I hope from 2.0 anyway...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was fooled by the length and proper spelling of the post but after reading it I see not a single valid argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How was it that you were actually fooled? What were you expecting? I carefully planted "in my opinion" to several sentences to avoid people misinterpering my "points" as "arguments".
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Building a good and strategically useful static defense is a matter of intelligence, teamwork and skill. An investment that should pay off<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, thats nice. How "pay off" exactly? My entire static defense opinions revolves around static defense "paying itself off" by providing aliens time to react. Could you please tell me what you mean by "paying off"? Is wasting marine time by forcing them to destroy structures in an area worth nothing? If nothing else, at least they have to pay off their phonebills increased by destroying useless junk-structures in a useless corridor <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can't hold an outpost lonng enough to get a sige up, blame the game. Can't destroy a WoL with JP/GL, blame the game. Can't figure out that a siege placed outside Mess Hall will clear it, THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE GAME!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It brings warmth to my heart to know you have found so much joy from my invisible ink.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lastly, what's the point? 2.0 is due out soon and if anything, it has been made more static-defense friendly. OC's and Turrets cost less, TF's can be elctrified. Does not this tell you something? The whole idea of the game is tactics and strategy, and static defenses are an integral part of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is that I wanted to raise discussion over what is static defense's purpose is NS. Do you think it's cool theres defense or not and do you find destroying structures fun? The counters for static defense have also been strenghtened (GL cost, damage), bilebomb is now 2 hives to counter sentry farming so I don't really get it when you say "does this tell you something?"... No it doesn't? Yes it does? Hmm...
Urph.. This has to be the longest post I've written yet.
Latest addition:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A single zergling runs into a bunker filled with marines; the zergling is cut to shreds and does no damage. The same as in NS. A single skulk cannot take out a turret farm; a single marine cannot take down a WOL (unless that marine has a GL)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would you like to be that zergling to run across the entire map only to be cut to pieces in 0.1 seconds after seeing a turret farm? Besides, a single skulk can take out a turret farm solo if the farm is poorly built and you can create a blind spot. Not that that happens often, but I just wanted to make a correction.
'nuff said
Ok, Ive been playing NS for what now...about a month? Anyways, 'WoLs' are fine in my thoughts. I think stoneburg pointed out all of the faults in your argument/post better than I, or anyone for that matter could possibly think of writing down.
All I can say here is "Only the strong survive." <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I cant believe somone stole my game name on the fourms #Ha.Ze^_^ but oh well. Didnt think anyone would actually make that name as an account.
Interesting post.
One viewpoint that I haven't noticed being specifically mentioned is the problem of dealing with smaller team sizes.
In a 4 v 4 game for example, it simply is not possible for players to be everywhere they need to be all the time. I don't think the game would be much fun if you could not rely on static defense to do a decent job of protecting a base for example. Would make it so that both teams would have a difficult time expanding IMO. And while "guard duty" might be fun now and then... would you want to have to do it constantly for lack of turrets for example ?
My understanding of the game is basically: Aliens have a quick grass-like expansion system, but marines have a lawn-mower <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Put the DCs/OCs around a corner and it's harder. One alien skulk backing up the WoL and attacking the GLer and it's 10x harder.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It takes an incompetent player to get killed by defense structures as it is right now. You should know better then to get killed by them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, umm, you jump over 5-6 OCs without getting killed? I know I can maybe get over them but I'll be shot in the back and die. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As a skulk I haven't died to sentries for ages (nor seen them), but they are not really in comparison with OCs, since avoiding sentries as a skulk is so easy compared to how easy it is to avoid OCs as a marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Building a good and strategically useful static defense is a matter of intelligence, teamwork and skill. An investment that should pay off<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, thats nice. How "pay off" exactly? My entire static defense opinions revolves around static defense "paying itself off" by providing aliens time to react. Could you please tell me what you mean by "paying off"? Is wasting marine time by forcing them to destroy structures in an area worth nothing? If nothing else, at least they have to pay off their phonebills increased by destroying useless junk-structures in a useless corridor <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A single zergling runs into a bunker filled with marines; the zergling is cut to shreds and does no damage. The same as in NS. A single skulk cannot take out a turret farm; a single marine cannot take down a WOL (unless that marine has a GL)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would you like to be that zergling to run across the entire map only to be cut to pieces in 0.1 seconds after seeing a turret farm? Besides, a single skulk can take out a turret farm solo if the farm is poorly built and you can create a blind spot. Not that that happens often, but I just wanted to make a correction. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok, well I tried to shorten this to cover the importants. You're ignoring the issue, aren't you. D chambers, regardless of where they are, could not POSSIBLY have healed those O chambers fast enough to keep them alive that long. If there were 8, then you should have just gone another way anyways, or tried to siege them out. But why should 3 jp/hmg/gl marines get through something that costs over 150 res to build? What are the aliens doing with enough time to build "100s" of such WoL? The marines lost that game, if the aliens controlled that much res.
That covers your WoL issue. Meh.
On to other topics! "Never been killed by a turret in forever." Wow, you must play on really weird servers. We have games where 4 skulks suicide rush themselves so that we can MAKE a blindspot on the TF. I guess you're the lucky guy who sees the "poorly built TF+defenses" after many of your teammates sacrifice themselves to make such an opening available. I'm sorry, but the amount of times a TF have cut me down are much higher than this 0 count of yours.
On to the argument about the marines being FORCED to destroy WoL. In the extreme case of the aliens holding a chokepoint, then yeah, kill that WoL you bum! That's why it's called a chokepoint. If it's not a chokepoint, why are you wasting your time on something that can be walked around some other way?
And as frustrating as that little zergling must have it, it's the fact he keeps doing the same thing over and over again without thinking of a new strategy that makes him an idiot, not the fact that he got slaughtered the first time.
I might edit this again soon for size, but we'll see.
If there was a gorge there healing stuff, then it is no longer static defense but active player defense.
If the area you were trying to get through was so unimportant, why waste time being blocked by defenses, why not go to a more important area?
And if you want things changed in the game because of your experiences, then yes, you are blaming the game in invisible ink for poor marine tactics.
Oh, and IMO skulks are minesweepers and meat puppets, skulks who hide to preserve their frag/death ratio are not helping the team. Skulks die, its what they do, and sometimes they get chompy and have happy times.
And as frustrating as that little zergling must have it, it's the fact he keeps doing the same thing over and over again without thinking of a new strategy that makes him an idiot, not the fact that he got slaughtered the first time.
... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that made <i>me</i> laugh!
True, in starcraft your units are mindless and will do very suicidal things; compared to NS, SC is a commander's heaven! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
What the little zergling should do is save up res and evolve into a ultra and take the bunker out that way. same in NS 2.0. see a turret farm? save res, and go fade/onos; also remember that there is no hive restriction on evolutions in 2.0 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
so, turret farms wont really matter in 2.0 for the aliens (hold us back and dont finish us off? we have hella res and go ONOS! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and WoLs wont be that bad for marines in 2.0 since everything will be somewhat cheaper so that means more GL's and seiges. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->