<!--QuoteBegin--Pege+Jul 8 2003, 05:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pege @ Jul 8 2003, 05:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Many times I have been near a WoL setting a siege base when some unlucky skulk has come across, got shot, told his friends and soon every skulk around the map has come to slaughter us (without PGs, marines can’t reinforce bases well). Just a few days ago I had JP/GL and 2 JP/LMG friends and I was supposed to play an inter-galactic bulldozer yet again. I unloaded 30 granades to a WoL, but it just didn’t die because of too many DCs around and a gorge healing. Then skulks came and killed me and my friends. Every shot with the GL wasn’t direct, but they all landed at least next to the WoL. Aliens’ WoLs have always brought a half-complete feeling of NS, like the mod wasn’t complete at all and this was a large bug in need of a fix. I mean, I and many others (judging by people swearing and exiting) don’t find it very fun if aliens block Foreboding lift with OCs when we really need to get a HA/HMG squad to Powersilo or put a WoL to Mess Hall and practically pin marines down to 2 RTs, because Auxiliary is so perfect skulk terrain. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> something just doesn't sound right to me when reading this. are you saying the kharaa should let the marines wander around haplessy and only build OCs seperate so they can be mauled easily by LMGers? shouldn't the first priority in siege outposts be setting up PGs so it can be reinforced? can't we kill you when we catch you building siege outposts or are gonna demolish our defense? i think your reasoning has a few flaws. according to you it's wrong we put massive amounts of defensive structures together, slow enemy movement and kill you building sieges/destroying our defense. and what about your turret farms? shouldn't they be declared lame too then?
<!--QuoteBegin--Pege+Jul 8 2003, 12:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pege @ Jul 8 2003, 12:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Noooo, I didn't say "it is the games fault". Please re-read.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And that is exactly how it works right now. Maybe what you mean is that it should slow it down less right now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One could see it as a "slowdown", but I see it more as a "halt" in 1.04. I do mean it should slow down "less" than now if you like to thing a WoL is only a slowdown.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It takes an incompetent player to get killed by defense structures as it is right now. You should know better then to get killed by them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, umm, you jump over 5-6 OCs without getting killed? I know I can maybe get over them but I'll be shot in the back and die. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> As a skulk I haven't died to sentries for ages (nor seen them), but they are not really in comparison with OCs, since avoiding sentries as a skulk is so easy compared to how easy it is to avoid OCs as a marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was fooled by the length and proper spelling of the post but after reading it I see not a single valid argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How was it that you were actually fooled? What were you expecting? I carefully planted "in my opinion" to several sentences to avoid people misinterpering my "points" as "arguments".
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Firstly, yes you are indeed saying it's the games fault. Since you imply that the current thing is wrong or doesn't meet with your approval. Throughout your post you point at things that you think is wrong and unless you mean the particular players then it has to be the game.
I don't get killed by jumping over 5-6 OC's because I am competent to know I will die if I try, so I don't. If I have a JP it is easy, a GL or siege the same. If I don't, I will probably walk around it. It's at a choke point? Holy crap! I let the enemy enforce a choke point! Maybe I should actually be punished somehow, like by having to build a TF or spend some time shooting at the chambers...
Just because you insert "it's my opinion" into your post doesn't give you immunity. We're not discussing ice cream here. If your opinion is based on false assumptions or lack of knowledge or understanding, it will be attacked. What did you expect? My opinion is that your opinion is totally and utterly... wrong. And I base that on my previous arguments. Since your defense is "it's my opinion" I doubt I'll have to spend much energy defending mine <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Please remember that the thread this post supposedly replies to was not discussing 1.04 defences.
Turrets in 1.04 are practically worthless, and 1.04 OCs are only useful later in the game as a desperate attempt to defend a hive location against JPs. These defences are hardly a part of 1.04 at all when played at a decent level.
In 2.0 on the other hand, these defences are:
a) Considerably more accurate b) Only 5 res a piece, with a 10 res turret factory
Think about that for a second. The 2.0 static defences are now strong enough and cheap enough that both OCs and TF/turrets are being used in almost all matchplay. The beta forum thread asked if 2.0 OCs should be buffed or not, 1.04 OCs don't come into it. The 1.04 defences are not worth their cost.
My own opinion on non-player defence is that it should:
- Provide a worthwhile combat advantage in any battle that occurs within its range. - Serve as a light defence that can delay small scale attacks and/or provide warnings - On its own, do very little to prevent a large scale attack or an attack that has a comparable amount of resources invested in it. (3 Players carrying 40 res of equpiment should NOT fight a stalemate with 40 res of non-player defence)
As much as some people would hate to admit it, NS is not a pure RTS, there are more people playing the game than the commander, and the game has to challenge and reward these players equally. Players are not mindless starcraft drones, and individual skill is a factor that is rewarded. Because of this, an emphasis has to be placed on the players. Sentries and OCs are automated, computer controlled defences. Since dealing with them as an outfield player is more likely to test your patience than your combat ability, a game based around player versus mindless automated defence structure isnt exactly rewarding for anyone other than the commander. The first point in my list should be noted - defence structures as combat support. This is by far the most rewarding way for defence structures to be implimented into the game. Combat is still focused on the players, and the commander still has to make sure he keeps track of the opposing team and positions players appropriately - but the use of static defence to hold important locations / chokes / whatever <b>in conjuction with player-units</b> is encouraged.
I do not believe completely automated defence, on its own, should be strong enough to seriously hinder anything more than a light attack.
Let me add my two cents here (since I was the one originally quoted)
As noted, there is a HUGE difference between 1.04 OCs and 2.0 OCs. Yes they are more deadly now, but only when you are standing still or in the same area. The idea is that once the OC 'locks on' it is suposed to be more accurate.
The counter for OCs has always been to go AROUND them instead of engaging them, and it is no different now.
Even though OCs only cost 5 res, the res system is completely different. Gorges no longer get an extra share of res, and there are many other things to buy as well. I rarely if ever see WOLs in 2.0 and when I do see them, it's usually because I built them to see how they will impact the marines.
The other thing to consider is that the D chamber is rarely built first anymore. However it does usually come in at #2 on a consistent basis. As such, OCs don't get the 'healing' that they do in 1.04 . OC kills are RARE on the 2.0 servers, while turret kills are more common. (skulks can no longer down a turret farm if the TF is electrified) You can't run in front of a turret farm as a skulk and survive.
Grenades will roast OCs but the HMG will kill them in 2 seconds. Once marines have HMGs OCs are no longer a threat. (WOL or not)
I remember the original WoL back in the dark old days of 1.0. They couldn't be taken out at all no matter what you used, not even 25 siege cannons could take them down because of them blasted DCs healing faster than you could damage it. Bast was the worse map for this, within 10 minutes of the round starting there would be unkillable WoL of lame at the bottom of the lift and on the otherside of the rotating airlock practicaly locking the rines in base.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I rarely if ever see WOLs in 2.0 and when I do see them, it's usually because I built them to see how they will impact the marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only reason we ever saw WOLs in 1.04 was because some people didn't know any better. The standard of play on the test servers is much higher than an average pub game, which means people build things because they know they are worthwhile, not just for the hell of it. The fact that we are seeing sentrys and OCs at all in the arranged matches indicates a significant change from 1.04.
Upon release of 2.0, i'm sure we'll see WOLs in every pub game, and i'm sure they'll be a more effective use of resources than WOLs in 1.04 ever where. That's not to say either was ever particularly effective.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Even though OCs only cost 5 res, the res system is completely different. Gorges no longer get an extra share of res, and there are many other things to buy as well. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the new res system means an individual gorge does not get the same massive input of resources, but using additional gorges and spending several player's resources on structures is now a replacement for the overflow. Ultimately you have about the same amount of resources to spend, you'll just require co-operation from a few more people in order to do it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Grenades will roast OCs but the HMG will kill them in 2 seconds. Once marines have HMGs OCs are no longer a threat. (WOL or not) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this, in my opinion, is the way things should be. Lone static defences doing little to prevent a large attacking force once they have higher level technology and have spent an appropriate amount of resources. These OCs still provide combat support if you fight among them, but marines with high level weaponry will only be delayed slightly by unmanned static defences. This is mirrored on the alien team by gorge's bilebomb.
Beginning - Def Chamber built In this sectione marines still lmg, maybe they have 1st weap upgrade or blink. They have no chance to break around the map if the aliens use vents to hide and strike in the nuts.
Def Chamber built - 2nd hive Now... some commanders instead of investing on upgrades brings JP. In any case, we need some offence chamber to protect our res. Tempgorging and building a Res+Offence is the first static def. As the gorge builds 2nd hive he starts to OC and webbing. From now on, it's all about static.
Marines have access to a pool of offensive methods, from GL, to Siege, to PG. Against them they have wandering fades and lerks.
now, in such an environement... are you so fool to go outside the base on your own only with lmg? These are scouts. They are for building a res or for dying. They are not to break down a defence. Just like a skulk, he can tear down a turret... maybe... but if he isn't supported by his team he'll get screwed by the first lmg passing by. Same apply for marines. Yeah, they can annoy the WOL, but if they dont have good weaponery or team support or PG near they'll get chomped by a skulk leaping from above the WOL.
"slowing" static defence is viable for the first part of the game (where anyway, an OC can be a real nuisance) . As the teams grow in power <b>(and resources)</b> they become fundamental for hive defence. Try to stop a JP/HMG in Refinery. Probably, the most important part of static defence is to allow your team to play in an advantaging environement.
i stopped reading and ignored the noob ....... here: "nowadays people don’t even bother (except me ) to destroy marine CC when they have relocated or when marine base has been destroyed and the last survivor is walking around the map."
<!--QuoteBegin--Stoneburg+Jul 8 2003, 11:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Jul 8 2003, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To me, static defense is what makes this game about strategy and not just teamwork and shooter skills
Building a good and strategically useful static defense is a matter of intelligence, teamwork and skill. An investment that should pay off.
Lastly, what's the point? 2.0 is due out soon and if anything, it has been made more static-defense friendly. OC's and Turrets cost less, TF's can be elctrified. Does not this tell you something? The whole idea of the game is tactics and strategy, and static defenses are an integral part of that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The Floating Scorpion speaks the truth! I am with Stone on this 100%
The Aliens need to be able to set up defenses that can kill, or a Wall of Lame(WoL) if you want to call it. With in 10 minuets of a game starting the commander should have one or two of the following built, researched, ready: -Heavy Armor -Jep Packs -Level 2 Guns and Armor -HMGs -Nade Launchers
The reason is the fact the Marines work as a team, The commander places something, 2 or 3 marines build it and guard it for a bit. The Aliens on the other hand have 1 player, just one, the gorge. The Player has to save up for 13 res (about 30 seconds after start) then he has to build up enough res to place his FIRST res tower (takes about 3 to 4 mins depending), then he has to build it (another min), then he has to save up again. In the time it takes the Gorge to make just one Res nozzle, the Marines should have about 2 and Motion tracking or something like that.
Now if the Gorge didn't have a way of setting up a baracade, the Marines would stomp over his new res towers and kick the hive and gorge in the **** in a matter of minutes. A Lone OC can be taken down with 3 clips from a LMG, and if the Marine has a wall to duck behind, he'll never even be hit once! Even placing 2 or 3 OC can't hold against a small team of 2 or 3 marines with LMGs (if they have cover).
When the gorge places a Wall of OCs backed up by a Wall of DC's hes only able to do it because he has caped enough res towers. He has spent a ton of time getting res towers and setting up defences, His team chances of survival depend on the Wall being able to keep the maines (with Fresh up grades) from taking the res away. OC and DC as they are now are not impassable, when you turn them into a wall, they become a roadblock, just as they should! A row of turrets will take down attacker after attacker, alot quicker then a OC could kill a marine.
A Wall of OCs and Dcs isn't ment to slow you down, its ment to Stop you until you have a team with the weps needed to destroy it. 2 HMGS can make swiss cheese out of any WoL in a matter of Seconds, if you toss a GL into that picture, you have a Road Block Runner and nothing short of better classes of Kharaa will stop you from comming to the hive. That WoL bought the Gorge time to get the Res needed to put the next hive up.
The Points in that original post are flawed, if you read the BETA LOGS you would see that the 2.0u OCs have a real problem when it come to HMGs, many of the PLS and Vets have said that the Power needs to be cut in Half vs Structures. OCs are the only defense a Kharaa team has against the Marines and the quick upgrades they get. I think everyone needs to read the Chance Logs and the BETA LOGS before they comment on OCs and DCs and use the term WoL!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Points in that original post are flawed, if you read the BETA LOGS you would see that the 2.0u OCs have a real problem when it come to HMGs, many of the PLS and Vets have said that the Power needs to be cut in Half vs Structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They're not complaining that defenses suck; they think the GL is relatively useless compared to the HMG because the HMG can do the same thing.
My personal preference in a RTS/FPS hybrid is soft counters. In a pure RTS, I think harder counters would be more interesting, but with the FPS aspect involved, the limitations would just be frustrating.
TeoH:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I do not believe completely automated defence, on its own, should be strong enough to seriously hinder anything more than a light attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I think they should if a LOT of res is spent. Automated defenses should just be far less efficient than players.
they should just have alot of RATS on the map, and you can place bombs on the rats (like a Mine coat on a player). The rats walk around and head to Kharaa movments and BOOOM!
in my opinion, base defence should be able to halt the enemy who is foolish enough to underestimate them. defensive structures have the roles of support,roadblock, gaurdian and marine-killer.
they should be not of PANG-PANG and they are down nor be a simple OC, turret be a fortress of doom. they should be strong enough to take those JP/lerk-and-skulk rambo's down, but to weak to halt a HA/fade train. they should be able to take more damage of heavy weapons/aliens instead of getting creamed by 2-5 shots, but still be easy to take out with them.
base defence should be a factor, not a annoyance. of course, many will say things to prove me wrong. defensive structures will be a big decision in the future of NS. if they are made too strong the enemy will siege alot or simply rush and if they are made too weak its back to locking down a hive and teching up. of course our ever so friendly community wil have a thing or two to say about this issue.
Actually, I wouldn't mind if JPs can get past OCs easily. As long as they can't take down hives easily and are overpowered against skulks, they would serve as useful scouts/outpost builders.
It should be mentioned that much of NS revolves around territorial control. The res system for both teams, and tech for Kharaa involve capturing (and controlling) positions. If defenses are unable to repel a light attack, players will have to defend these positions themselves. You think taking down OCs and turrets is boring? Imagine standing by a res node for the entire match. For that matter, imagine 5 players per team as designated "turrets" just to provide a viable defense for res nodes. I find the progression of <b>attack-->defend-->build--->move</b> to be about right.
Comments
something just doesn't sound right to me when reading this. are you saying the kharaa should let the marines wander around haplessy and only build OCs seperate so they can be mauled easily by LMGers? shouldn't the first priority in siege outposts be setting up PGs so it can be reinforced? can't we kill you when we catch you building siege outposts or are gonna demolish our defense?
i think your reasoning has a few flaws. according to you it's wrong we put massive amounts of defensive structures together, slow enemy movement and kill you building sieges/destroying our defense. and what about your turret farms? shouldn't they be declared lame too then?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And that is exactly how it works right now. Maybe what you mean is that it should slow it down less right now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One could see it as a "slowdown", but I see it more as a "halt" in 1.04. I do mean it should slow down "less" than now if you like to thing a WoL is only a slowdown.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It takes an incompetent player to get killed by defense structures as it is right now. You should know better then to get killed by them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, umm, you jump over 5-6 OCs without getting killed? I know I can maybe get over them but I'll be shot in the back and die. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As a skulk I haven't died to sentries for ages (nor seen them), but they are not really in comparison with OCs, since avoiding sentries as a skulk is so easy compared to how easy it is to avoid OCs as a marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was fooled by the length and proper spelling of the post but after reading it I see not a single valid argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How was it that you were actually fooled? What were you expecting? I carefully planted "in my opinion" to several sentences to avoid people misinterpering my "points" as "arguments".
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, yes you are indeed saying it's the games fault. Since you imply that the current thing is wrong or doesn't meet with your approval. Throughout your post you point at things that you think is wrong and unless you mean the particular players then it has to be the game.
I don't get killed by jumping over 5-6 OC's because I am competent to know I will die if I try, so I don't. If I have a JP it is easy, a GL or siege the same. If I don't, I will probably walk around it. It's at a choke point? Holy crap! I let the enemy enforce a choke point! Maybe I should actually be punished somehow, like by having to build a TF or spend some time shooting at the chambers...
Just because you insert "it's my opinion" into your post doesn't give you immunity. We're not discussing ice cream here. If your opinion is based on false assumptions or lack of knowledge or understanding, it will be attacked. What did you expect? My opinion is that your opinion is totally and utterly... wrong. And I base that on my previous arguments. Since your defense is "it's my opinion" I doubt I'll have to spend much energy defending mine <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Turrets in 1.04 are practically worthless, and 1.04 OCs are only useful later in the game as a desperate attempt to defend a hive location against JPs. These defences are hardly a part of 1.04 at all when played at a decent level.
In 2.0 on the other hand, these defences are:
a) Considerably more accurate
b) Only 5 res a piece, with a 10 res turret factory
Think about that for a second. The 2.0 static defences are now strong enough and cheap enough that both OCs and TF/turrets are being used in almost all matchplay. The beta forum thread asked if 2.0 OCs should be buffed or not, 1.04 OCs don't come into it. The 1.04 defences are not worth their cost.
My own opinion on non-player defence is that it should:
- Provide a worthwhile combat advantage in any battle that occurs within its range.
- Serve as a light defence that can delay small scale attacks and/or provide warnings
- On its own, do very little to prevent a large scale attack or an attack that has a comparable amount of resources invested in it. (3 Players carrying 40 res of equpiment should NOT fight a stalemate with 40 res of non-player defence)
As much as some people would hate to admit it, NS is not a pure RTS, there are more people playing the game than the commander, and the game has to challenge and reward these players equally. Players are not mindless starcraft drones, and individual skill is a factor that is rewarded. Because of this, an emphasis has to be placed on the players. Sentries and OCs are automated, computer controlled defences. Since dealing with them as an outfield player is more likely to test your patience than your combat ability, a game based around player versus mindless automated defence structure isnt exactly rewarding for anyone other than the commander. The first point in my list should be noted - defence structures as combat support. This is by far the most rewarding way for defence structures to be implimented into the game. Combat is still focused on the players, and the commander still has to make sure he keeps track of the opposing team and positions players appropriately - but the use of static defence to hold important locations / chokes / whatever <b>in conjuction with player-units</b> is encouraged.
I do not believe completely automated defence, on its own, should be strong enough to seriously hinder anything more than a light attack.
As noted, there is a HUGE difference between 1.04 OCs and 2.0 OCs. Yes they are more deadly now, but only when you are standing still or in the same area. The idea is that once the OC 'locks on' it is suposed to be more accurate.
The counter for OCs has always been to go AROUND them instead of engaging them, and it is no different now.
Even though OCs only cost 5 res, the res system is completely different. Gorges no longer get an extra share of res, and there are many other things to buy as well. I rarely if ever see WOLs in 2.0 and when I do see them, it's usually because I built them to see how they will impact the marines.
The other thing to consider is that the D chamber is rarely built first anymore. However it does usually come in at #2 on a consistent basis. As such, OCs don't get the 'healing' that they do in 1.04 . OC kills are RARE on the 2.0 servers, while turret kills are more common. (skulks can no longer down a turret farm if the TF is electrified) You can't run in front of a turret farm as a skulk and survive.
Grenades will roast OCs but the HMG will kill them in 2 seconds. Once marines have HMGs OCs are no longer a threat. (WOL or not)
Regards,
Savant
I rarely if ever see WOLs in 2.0 and when I do see them, it's usually because I built them to see how they will impact the marines.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only reason we ever saw WOLs in 1.04 was because some people didn't know any better. The standard of play on the test servers is much higher than an average pub game, which means people build things because they know they are worthwhile, not just for the hell of it. The fact that we are seeing sentrys and OCs at all in the arranged matches indicates a significant change from 1.04.
Upon release of 2.0, i'm sure we'll see WOLs in every pub game, and i'm sure they'll be a more effective use of resources than WOLs in 1.04 ever where. That's not to say either was ever particularly effective.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Even though OCs only cost 5 res, the res system is completely different. Gorges no longer get an extra share of res, and there are many other things to buy as well.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the new res system means an individual gorge does not get the same massive input of resources, but using additional gorges and spending several player's resources on structures is now a replacement for the overflow. Ultimately you have about the same amount of resources to spend, you'll just require co-operation from a few more people in order to do it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Grenades will roast OCs but the HMG will kill them in 2 seconds. Once marines have HMGs OCs are no longer a threat. (WOL or not)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this, in my opinion, is the way things should be. Lone static defences doing little to prevent a large attacking force once they have higher level technology and have spent an appropriate amount of resources. These OCs still provide combat support if you fight among them, but marines with high level weaponry will only be delayed slightly by unmanned static defences. This is mirrored on the alien team by gorge's bilebomb.
Beginning - Def Chamber built
In this sectione marines still lmg, maybe they have 1st weap upgrade or blink. They have no chance to break around the map if the aliens use vents to hide and strike in the nuts.
Def Chamber built - 2nd hive
Now... some commanders instead of investing on upgrades brings JP. In any case, we need some offence chamber to protect our res. Tempgorging and building a Res+Offence is the first static def. As the gorge builds 2nd hive he starts to OC and webbing. From now on, it's all about static.
Marines have access to a pool of offensive methods, from GL, to Siege, to PG.
Against them they have wandering fades and lerks.
now, in such an environement... are you so fool to go outside the base on your own only with lmg?
These are scouts. They are for building a res or for dying. They are not to break down a defence. Just like a skulk, he can tear down a turret... maybe... but if he isn't supported by his team he'll get screwed by the first lmg passing by.
Same apply for marines. Yeah, they can annoy the WOL, but if they dont have good weaponery or team support or PG near they'll get chomped by a skulk leaping from above the WOL.
"slowing" static defence is viable for the first part of the game (where anyway, an OC can be a real nuisance) . As the teams grow in power <b>(and resources)</b> they become fundamental for hive defence. Try to stop a JP/HMG in Refinery.
Probably, the most important part of static defence is to allow your team to play in an advantaging environement.
where did you all stop reading ??!!?!?!?!?
Building a good and strategically useful static defense is a matter of intelligence, teamwork and skill. An investment that should pay off.
Lastly, what's the point? 2.0 is due out soon and if anything, it has been made more static-defense friendly. OC's and Turrets cost less, TF's can be elctrified. Does not this tell you something? The whole idea of the game is tactics and strategy, and static defenses are an integral part of that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Floating Scorpion speaks the truth!
I am with Stone on this 100%
The Aliens need to be able to set up defenses that can kill, or a Wall of Lame(WoL) if you want to call it. With in 10 minuets of a game starting the commander should have one or two of the following built, researched, ready:
-Heavy Armor
-Jep Packs
-Level 2 Guns and Armor
-HMGs
-Nade Launchers
The reason is the fact the Marines work as a team, The commander places something, 2 or 3 marines build it and guard it for a bit.
The Aliens on the other hand have 1 player, just one, the gorge. The Player has to save up for 13 res (about 30 seconds after start) then he has to build up enough res to place his FIRST res tower (takes about 3 to 4 mins depending), then he has to build it (another min), then he has to save up again. In the time it takes the Gorge to make just one Res nozzle, the Marines should have about 2 and Motion tracking or something like that.
Now if the Gorge didn't have a way of setting up a baracade, the Marines would stomp over his new res towers and kick the hive and gorge in the **** in a matter of minutes. A Lone OC can be taken down with 3 clips from a LMG, and if the Marine has a wall to duck behind, he'll never even be hit once! Even placing 2 or 3 OC can't hold against a small team of 2 or 3 marines with LMGs (if they have cover).
When the gorge places a Wall of OCs backed up by a Wall of DC's hes only able to do it because he has caped enough res towers. He has spent a ton of time getting res towers and setting up defences, His team chances of survival depend on the Wall being able to keep the maines (with Fresh up grades) from taking the res away. OC and DC as they are now are not impassable, when you turn them into a wall, they become a roadblock, just as they should! A row of turrets will take down attacker after attacker, alot quicker then a OC could kill a marine.
A Wall of OCs and Dcs isn't ment to slow you down, its ment to Stop you until you have a team with the weps needed to destroy it. 2 HMGS can make swiss cheese out of any WoL in a matter of Seconds, if you toss a GL into that picture, you have a Road Block Runner and nothing short of better classes of Kharaa will stop you from comming to the hive. That WoL bought the Gorge time to get the Res needed to put the next hive up.
The Points in that original post are flawed, if you read the BETA LOGS you would see that the 2.0u OCs have a real problem when it come to HMGs, many of the PLS and Vets have said that the Power needs to be cut in Half vs Structures. OCs are the only defense a Kharaa team has against the Marines and the quick upgrades they get. I think everyone needs to read the Chance Logs and the BETA LOGS before they comment on OCs and DCs and use the term WoL!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Points in that original post are flawed, if you read the BETA LOGS you would see that the 2.0u OCs have a real problem when it come to HMGs, many of the PLS and Vets have said that the Power needs to be cut in Half vs Structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They're not complaining that defenses suck; they think the GL is relatively useless compared to the HMG because the HMG can do the same thing.
My personal preference in a RTS/FPS hybrid is soft counters. In a pure RTS, I think harder counters would be more interesting, but with the FPS aspect involved, the limitations would just be frustrating.
TeoH:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I do not believe completely automated defence, on its own, should be strong enough to seriously hinder anything more than a light attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I think they should if a LOT of res is spent. Automated defenses should just be far less efficient than players.
they should be not of PANG-PANG and they are down nor be a simple OC, turret be a fortress of doom.
they should be strong enough to take those JP/lerk-and-skulk rambo's down, but to weak to halt a HA/fade train.
they should be able to take more damage of heavy weapons/aliens instead of getting creamed by 2-5 shots, but still be easy to take out with them.
base defence should be a factor, not a annoyance. of course, many will say things to prove me wrong.
defensive structures will be a big decision in the future of NS. if they are made too strong the enemy will siege alot or simply rush and if they are made too weak its back to locking down a hive and teching up. of course our ever so friendly community wil have a thing or two to say about this issue.