Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Frogg2+Jul 10 2003, 11:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frogg2 @ Jul 10 2003, 11:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You get money in cs for killing players, but no one seems to mind even when it's a <i>realism</i> mod...
No i'm not comparing cs to ns.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> maybe because THERE ARE NO RESOURCE NODES IN CS
you have to get money somehow (achieving strategic goals also gives you money)
Anyway, I don't consider CS a "realism" mod at all. DoD maybe, FireArms maybe, Hostile Intent if it every comes out...but not bunny hopping friendly, snipe-while-running-and-jumping CS.
The issue isn't realism, it's sticking to gameplay and atmosphere.
Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
<!--QuoteBegin--romano+Jul 10 2003, 07:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (romano @ Jul 10 2003, 07:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5. Will promote "slippery slope", IE harder to come back in a slightly losing situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats basically the entire point of res-for-kills. Flayra wanted a way for the winning team to finish off the other team quickly. In builds where there was no res-for-kills, we were getting HORRIBLY long end games, where the team which was VERY clearly going to win was unable to do so because res flow was simply too slow to allow massing of high tech for the final push. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe i'm perverse...but I sort of like the longish games (well, games in which highest level upgrades are actually useful). 1.04 seems to be susceptible to the opposite: skulk rush vs. marine JP/shotgun rush, 2 minutes, GG
I think that everyone just needs to stop picking things out of the changelog and then complaining or commenting on them continuously. I have some doubts about 2.0, but I am not expresssing them simply because I have never played it. I have no idea how the gameplay is going to be in 2.0 and no matter how much I read, I will not know until I play the game myself. All we are doing in these threads is rejected changes that we haven't even seen in action yet, and only for the reason that they sound outlandish or unbalanced. I know that these features wouldn't be in unless they worked.
We just need to keep an open mind, read the changelogs, and wait until the 31st. I really only keep up with the changelogs because I don't want to be completely suprised on the release day. I would much rather have some idea of what is going on. As the vets have said Trust in Flayra.
<!--QuoteBegin--Vash7h3Stampede+Jul 11 2003, 02:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Vash7h3Stampede @ Jul 11 2003, 02:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think that everyone just needs to stop picking things out of the changelog and then complaining or commenting on them continuously<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->O All buttons highlight<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> OMG MARIENS LOSE!!!111 ALEINS DOn'T HIGHLIUGHT
This post was never meant to be a "Omg ns 2.0 will suxor because of this, I just know it, even though I haven't played it." type of post. This post is me voicing <i>possible</i> problems with an announced feature, and asking for an <i>explanation</i> as to why the feature will be good. I'm not complaining or whining here, as most people posting in this thread seem to think.
I thought this was pretty clear, for example, the first two words of the post being "I think" as opposed to "I know", and the entire last sentence being a question asking for an explanation. Apparently not. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
If a feature has this many <i>possible</i> problems, then there at least has to be a good way in which the feature is beneficial to the game. <i>One</i> (1) poster in this thread has actually tried to give an explanation of a beneficial part of res-for-kills. /me replies to that post.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thats basically the entire point of res-for-kills. Flayra wanted a way for the winning team to finish off the other team quickly. In builds where there was no res-for-kills, we were getting HORRIBLY long end games, where the team which was VERY clearly going to win was unable to do so because res flow was simply too slow to allow massing of high tech for the final push.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Personally, I enjoy long back-and-forth games. I've seen many games where my realistic side said "oh, that team VERY clearly has it won, there's no <i>way</i> they're going to lose now" and the other team manages, through exceptional skill, teamwork, or whatever, to actually win the game anyway. That's the beauty of ns, in my opinion. Those are the games when you really feel you've accomplished something.
To lessen the chance of comebacks in favor of quicker endgames, where there would normally still be a chance for comebacks, however small, sounds just plain silly in my humble opinion, and I think most would agree. Not to mention that there might very well be other problems (in my original post), which I still haven't all seen good counterarguments to.
So anyway, I still see no good reason why res for kills is beneficial, and it still seems to me like it will be detrimental to the athmosphere.
I suppose I'll have to live with the "trust me, it works" replies, and wait and see... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> However, I'd still love to see someone explain <i>why</i> it's good... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
There has to be something <i>good</i> about it, right? A feature can't be added just because there's nothing bad about it. (of which I am not yet convinced <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
By design, the RFK system will only prevent a comeback against a skilled team. Having more res will do little to help the winning team if they can't use it well. Think of it as the advantage of momentum. Defensive victories result in counterattacks, offensive victories result in furthur offense. The only possible concern is that the winning team may simply use this res to entrench, rather than push. Either way, every lost battle will make things more difficult for the losing team. My guess: this is exactly what Flayra wanted.
My biggest problem is with the declaration of no more useless kamikazes. Given that skulks have been made meatier in 2.0, I choose to believe it won't be that bad.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At first I liked this idea. I even mentioned it in another thread a while ago. However, this means that marines have no chance in a 2v2 game since they never get res for kills and aliens do (not that NS will be balanced for 2v2 when it is made for larger teams, but it is a point to make anyway). It is worth trying for a later version.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just have a code that lowers/cuts the green circles when a number of marines/players are playing. I still think my idea is golden.
Speaking about res... does this really apply? <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It now takes 120 seconds before any resource tower starts giving resources for the team<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If so, res for kills would just... <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... promote ... generally more interaction with the enemy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Do I get something wrong maybe? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Res towers are VERY important in this new version if you couldnt have seen by now. It takes two minutes to get one 'online,' at which a hive could be up, and HMGs would be upgraded. Res for kills is good I think...but the only way they can really tweak is some more is to have all the little people play NS in its new version and give feedback.
Thats right...all those <b><i><u>Tiny...insignificant...people...</u></i></b>
obuhNot Quite Smart at NSJoin Date: 2003-03-31Member: 15072Members, Constellation
RTs activate in 90 seconds now
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->O It now takes 90 seconds before any resource tower (besides the one at round start) starts giving resources for the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think any possible concerns about the game becoming ruined is completely unfounded. Furthermore, it appears you are reading a bullet-point in the changelog, evaluate it on 1.0x basis and move on to the next bulletpoint, forgetting about the previous one, and don't seem to get an image of the whole extent of the changes in 2. From what I have heard, there will be some major changes in gameplay, bigger than rfk. As stated before, we're just talking 1-3 res per kill. To me this seems like yet another minor feature causing an outcry among the casual players. Just wait until you have played the game before you sound the alarm.
<!--QuoteBegin--Gargamel+Jul 11 2003, 10:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gargamel @ Jul 11 2003, 10:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "Skill" should not be ANY kind of discrimination EVER. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> "Skill" is why I started playing games back in '94. No skill, you're going to lose. Doesn't matter what kind of game, unless you're gambling.
Anyways, I don't know how this system will work until I try it out. I think this would actually encourage more strategy on the alien team but lessen the teamwork of the Marine team. An alien would be doing wonders for the team if he willingly camped one crucial area for the team simply because it's heavily trafficked by Marines. For example, on ns_caged at Stability Monitoring. I once stayed there as Skulk until the second hive was up; the Marines would simply not stop coming, and I got about 20 kills from staying there. I guess they were trying to get to our hive in Generator. There are just to many excellent ambush spots in Stability Monitoring. Though I have an "excuse" for how the Marines collect the res from dead aliens (the nanites "eat" the dead body and convert it into res), I don't quite like the idea of Marine res-for-kills. Commander-endorsed rambos are BAD. They're already a fact of life on public servers, why compound the problem? If Marine res-for-kills were implemented I would at least like to see a proportionate amount of res given for each type of alien; say 2 for Skulk, 4 for Gorge, 3 for Lerk, 6 for Fade, 10 for Onos. Same goes for the alien side, you kill a JP'er you get 4 res. A heavy gets you 6.
I havent played 2.0 (obviosuly) so i dont know how it plays, but this face <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> shows my gut reaction to it.
I really cant see it being a good thing, i cant see how it promotes good/friendly team work. Which to me is the best part of the game.
To me NS is a good game becuase it counts less on whos best at pointing and clicking, and more on tactics and team work.
But having said that it might not be so bad in clan play.
Either way im willing to wait and see before i decide for definate good or bad.
My next point i dont really want to get into but its worth considering..... The Aimbotters will LOVE it.
2 base units <b>are</b> greater than 1 base unit in 2.0, unlike 1.04 where a marine can take on multiple skulks
res for kills is supposed to promote teamplay in that by ramboing you are improving the other teams chances of winning, once people realize this you will see lots of teamwork on both sides.
Personally, I think Res-for-Kills will be a fine addition to the game. One thing a lot of NS players don't realize is that short of a JP/HMG rush, the marines must maintain an agressive stance to be successful against skilled aliens. This will be doubly true in NS 2.0, as aliens will be able to expand very quickly if left unpressured. A portion of the marine team must make every effort to prevent gorges from building and generally keep the aliens on the defensive.
Knowing this, removing marine res-for-kills would be counter-intuitive. If aliens get a bonus for kills and marines don't, logically marines should not do anything that risks them getting killed. Their own kills provide nothing, right? If your three man search-and-destroy squad ends up killing eight skulks before dying, the benefits are not obvious. The aliens have made a concrete gain (6 res), the marines have not. Your average player might conclude that the attack was a complete failure and thus be reluctant to attack again. Without marine RfK, the marines are encouraged to always stay on defense.
A lot of people in this thread are concerned that RfK will promote ramboing, and that's understandable. But don't forget that the balance between the basic tier-one units has been tweaked significantly. Skulks have improved health and armor, bite knockback has been removed, hitbox bugs have been resolved, players can move silently by walking, and marine bunnyhopping is gone. The result is that as long as the skulks are smart enough to exploit their advantages (e.g. they don't just charge the marine at first sighting), the rambo should lose every time. RfK will actually encourage grouping, since to attack alone will result in a quick and unproductive death.
So please folks, stop applying 1.04 logic to 2.0. Always look at the big picture.
just one thing you may wanna think about: some of you started saying "this isn't realistic at all" ... how do the marines actually get the resources....
well quickly think about your handy siege cannon - works by creating gravitic anomalies. heh, hate to burst your bubble, but you're on a spaceship in most of these maps. gravitic anomalies inside a spaceship would prolly do some scructural damage? :x try to overlook the "realism" and actually look at the matter at hand.
i think there are equal arguements for and against res for kills, although i'd rather see it only on one team. adds more of the varierty, but nevermind.
<!--QuoteBegin--shanks+Jul 12 2003, 06:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (shanks @ Jul 12 2003, 06:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> just one thing you may wanna think about: some of you started saying "this isn't realistic at all" ... how do the marines actually get the resources....
well quickly think about your handy siege cannon - works by creating gravitic anomalies. heh, hate to burst your bubble, but you're on a spaceship in most of these maps. gravitic anomalies inside a spaceship would prolly do some scructural damage? :x try to overlook the "realism" and actually look at the matter at hand.
i think there are equal arguements for and against res for kills, although i'd rather see it only on one team. adds more of the varierty, but nevermind. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> owned
Yes,yEs,yeS, we will see in 3 weeks MUHEHEHE. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> But please stop saying that "people are whining" and "play then complain" Noone is whining or complaining here in my opinion. We are just discussing if rfk might have good or bad impact on the community. And what else can we do other than guessing? Its just concerns, nothing else. And like Hungry Hippo said, we might get a nicely new ns, but isnt this also opening a door and welcoming the exploiters/cheaters? Those people do exactly that because they get PERSONAL benefits from this, be it score or be it res (applying more to aliens here). Just think about CS. A teamgame? Not in my eyes. And if skill is why you like ns, well, I like to think ns is a teamgame, not deathmatch. Of course the better team should win, but not because it has 2 elite players. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> It should win because of superior teamwork. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> I started playing computer games from the dark ages of spectrum128K. I now play ns because of the team factor and foremost: FUN mates, just pure damn FUN! Have FUN! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hmm the creating gravitic anomalies would make your face turn inside out if your were near it thus meaning it would be worst to be a Assualting marine on a spaceship attacking a key hive location.
Then a seige goes off <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> Breaking your bones and turning your skin inside out dieing from body failure. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes i have nfi what im talking about <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Catpoker+Jul 12 2003, 01:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Catpoker @ Jul 12 2003, 01:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> what happens when you mix high skill and noobs together? you guys are basicly playtesting a clan war
i am just worryed about public servers where people are not of the same skill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What happens? The team with the highest level of skill will probably win. That's what's <i>meant</i> to happen.
SinSpawnHarbinger of SufferingJoin Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8359Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Snidely+Jul 13 2003, 12:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Jul 13 2003, 12:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Catpoker+Jul 12 2003, 01:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Catpoker @ Jul 12 2003, 01:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> what happens when you mix high skill and noobs together? you guys are basicly playtesting a clan war
i am just worryed about public servers where people are not of the same skill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What happens? The team with the highest level of skill will probably win. That's what's <i>meant</i> to happen. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Doesn't this happen in all games, if one team is better than the other, obviously the other team will win.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
Resource bounties basically promote teamplay.
Failure to stick together and stay alive just benefits the other team. Sticking together and getting a better kill ratio will seriously improve your chances.
It doesn't stop suicide attacks from being viable, it just makes you think as to whether such a suicide run will end up benefiting yourself or the other team more.
From a kharaa perspective, it also means that a good or careful or sneaky player can rapidly accumulate resources to assist in either gorging & building a hive, or quickly evolving to Onos. It adds lots of depth.
From a marine perspective, it allows marines to defend more effectively. A wasteful skulk assault on a base will provide enough resources to ensure that next time they turn up, there are two or three more turrets waiting for them.
Finally, it's also the only way for a team without a node to get enough resources to build, since there is no base resource income anymore. If a team has no node, it has no income apart from kills.
Failure to stick together and stay alive just benefits the other team. Sticking together and getting a better kill ratio will seriously improve your chances.
It doesn't stop suicide attacks from being viable, it just makes you think as to whether such a suicide run will end up benefiting yourself or the other team more.
From a kharaa perspective, it also means that a good or careful or sneaky player can rapidly accumulate resources to assist in either gorging & building a hive, or quickly evolving to Onos. It adds lots of depth.
From a marine perspective, it allows marines to defend more effectively. A wasteful skulk assault on a base will provide enough resources to ensure that next time they turn up, there are two or three more turrets waiting for them.
Finally, it's also the only way for a team without a node to get enough resources to build, since there is no base resource income anymore. If a team has no node, it has no income apart from kills. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OMG!!!! PLAYTEST LEAD <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> OK PEOPLE, YOU HEARD THE MAN! (btw forget my other posts in here)
GOGOGO 2.0!!!!!
(if you re thinking I m a psycho, well, maybe I am, but more important: I JUST REALISED I LL BE THE QUICKEST ONOS ANYWAY! MUHARHARHARHAR! WHO CARES ABOUT THE REST? MUHARHAR I LL STAY AT MARINE BASE AND KILL ALL MARINES TILL I GROW ROOTS ON MY LEFGS AND BECOME A HIVE MYSELF! /me selfish little ****)
Well the thing is, in 2.0, alot of the things are different expecialy the res to get things (as aliens) you'll see once it's out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
But why i say it's still normal, and balanced, is because in, 1.04, alot of marines would jump and have a push-away effect when a skulk attacked them with bite, in 2.0 that is no longer an issue the push back effect is away as is the bhop for marines, so even 1 skulk could just have cloaking, and hide right near a resource node (wont be able to see you) then you just tkae them out, also it's way harder, it'll be balanced, hard to explain, but once it's released you'll see, it just... works <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
If attacking structures will give res to marines, no skulk will attack turrets until they become Fade/Onos.
These kills are not from personal skill.
Why do we have to give reward to the kill not coming from personal skill ?
No i'm not comparing cs to ns.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe because THERE ARE NO RESOURCE NODES IN CS
you have to get money somehow (achieving strategic goals also gives you money)
Anyway, I don't consider CS a "realism" mod at all. DoD maybe, FireArms maybe, Hostile Intent if it every comes out...but not bunny hopping friendly, snipe-while-running-and-jumping CS.
The issue isn't realism, it's sticking to gameplay and atmosphere.
Thats basically the entire point of res-for-kills. Flayra wanted a way for the winning team to finish off the other team quickly. In builds where there was no res-for-kills, we were getting HORRIBLY long end games, where the team which was VERY clearly going to win was unable to do so because res flow was simply too slow to allow massing of high tech for the final push.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe i'm perverse...but I sort of like the longish games (well, games in which highest level upgrades are actually useful). 1.04 seems to be susceptible to the opposite: skulk rush vs. marine JP/shotgun rush, 2 minutes, GG
We just need to keep an open mind, read the changelogs, and wait until the 31st. I really only keep up with the changelogs because I don't want to be completely suprised on the release day. I would much rather have some idea of what is going on. As the vets have said Trust in Flayra.
Go! Go! 2.0!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->O All buttons highlight<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG MARIENS LOSE!!!111 ALEINS DOn'T HIGHLIUGHT
CAN EW MAEKL THIS SEVAR SIDE!!!111?
I thought this was pretty clear, for example, the first two words of the post being "I think" as opposed to "I know", and the entire last sentence being a question asking for an explanation. Apparently not. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
If a feature has this many <i>possible</i> problems, then there at least has to be a good way in which the feature is beneficial to the game. <i>One</i> (1) poster in this thread has actually tried to give an explanation of a beneficial part of res-for-kills. /me replies to that post.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thats basically the entire point of res-for-kills. Flayra wanted a way for the winning team to finish off the other team quickly. In builds where there was no res-for-kills, we were getting HORRIBLY long end games, where the team which was VERY clearly going to win was unable to do so because res flow was simply too slow to allow massing of high tech for the final push.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Personally, I enjoy long back-and-forth games. I've seen many games where my realistic side said "oh, that team VERY clearly has it won, there's no <i>way</i> they're going to lose now" and the other team manages, through exceptional skill, teamwork, or whatever, to actually win the game anyway. That's the beauty of ns, in my opinion. Those are the games when you really feel you've accomplished something.
To lessen the chance of comebacks in favor of quicker endgames, where there would normally still be a chance for comebacks, however small, sounds just plain silly in my humble opinion, and I think most would agree. Not to mention that there might very well be other problems (in my original post), which I still haven't all seen good counterarguments to.
So anyway, I still see no good reason why res for kills is beneficial, and it still seems to me like it will be detrimental to the athmosphere.
I suppose I'll have to live with the "trust me, it works" replies, and wait and see... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
However, I'd still love to see someone explain <i>why</i> it's good... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
There has to be something <i>good</i> about it, right? A feature can't be added just because there's nothing bad about it. (of which I am not yet convinced <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
By design, the RFK system will only prevent a comeback against a skilled team. Having more res will do little to help the winning team if they can't use it well. Think of it as the advantage of momentum. Defensive victories result in counterattacks, offensive victories result in furthur offense. The only possible concern is that the winning team may simply use this res to entrench, rather than push. Either way, every lost battle will make things more difficult for the losing team. My guess: this is exactly what Flayra wanted.
My biggest problem is with the declaration of no more useless kamikazes. Given that skulks have been made meatier in 2.0, I choose to believe it won't be that bad.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At first I liked this idea. I even mentioned it in another thread a while ago. However, this means that marines have no chance in a 2v2 game since they never get res for kills and aliens do (not that NS will be balanced for 2v2 when it is made for larger teams, but it is a point to make anyway). It is worth trying for a later version.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just have a code that lowers/cuts the green circles when a number of marines/players are playing. I still think my idea is golden.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It now takes 120 seconds before any resource tower starts giving resources for the team<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If so, res for kills would just...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... promote ... generally more interaction with the enemy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Do I get something wrong maybe? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Thats right...all those <b><i><u>Tiny...insignificant...people...</u></i></b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->O It now takes 90 seconds before any resource tower (besides the one at round start) starts giving resources for the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Furthermore, it appears you are reading a bullet-point in the changelog, evaluate it on 1.0x basis
and move on to the next bulletpoint, forgetting about the previous one, and don't seem to get
an image of the whole extent of the changes in 2. From what I have heard, there will be some
major changes in gameplay, bigger than rfk. As stated before, we're just talking 1-3 res per kill. To me this seems like yet another minor feature causing an outcry among the casual players. Just wait until you have
played the game before you sound the alarm.
oh and esuna...ah forget it...
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
Go gorgerush!!
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Skill" is why I started playing games back in '94. No skill, you're going to lose. Doesn't matter what kind of game, unless you're gambling.
Anyways, I don't know how this system will work until I try it out. I think this would actually encourage more strategy on the alien team but lessen the teamwork of the Marine team. An alien would be doing wonders for the team if he willingly camped one crucial area for the team simply because it's heavily trafficked by Marines. For example, on ns_caged at Stability Monitoring. I once stayed there as Skulk until the second hive was up; the Marines would simply not stop coming, and I got about 20 kills from staying there. I guess they were trying to get to our hive in Generator. There are just to many excellent ambush spots in Stability Monitoring. Though I have an "excuse" for how the Marines collect the res from dead aliens (the nanites "eat" the dead body and convert it into res), I don't quite like the idea of Marine res-for-kills. Commander-endorsed rambos are BAD. They're already a fact of life on public servers, why compound the problem? If Marine res-for-kills were implemented I would at least like to see a proportionate amount of res given for each type of alien; say 2 for Skulk, 4 for Gorge, 3 for Lerk, 6 for Fade, 10 for Onos. Same goes for the alien side, you kill a JP'er you get 4 res. A heavy gets you 6.
/my 2 cents.
well the only problem is that the playtesters are all of high skill right? (veterans were picked from the top clans)
what happens when you mix high skill and noobs together? you guys are basicly playtesting a clan war
i am just worryed about public servers where people are not of the same skill.
PS no offence was ment to anyone
I really cant see it being a good thing, i cant see how it promotes good/friendly team work. Which to me is the best part of the game.
To me NS is a good game becuase it counts less on whos best at pointing and clicking, and more on tactics and team work.
But having said that it might not be so bad in clan play.
Either way im willing to wait and see before i decide for definate good or bad.
My next point i dont really want to get into but its worth considering..... The Aimbotters will LOVE it.
res for kills is supposed to promote teamplay in that by ramboing you are improving the other teams chances of winning, once people realize this you will see lots of teamwork on both sides.
Knowing this, removing marine res-for-kills would be counter-intuitive. If aliens get a bonus for kills and marines don't, logically marines should not do anything that risks them getting killed. Their own kills provide nothing, right? If your three man search-and-destroy squad ends up killing eight skulks before dying, the benefits are not obvious. The aliens have made a concrete gain (6 res), the marines have not. Your average player might conclude that the attack was a complete failure and thus be reluctant to attack again. Without marine RfK, the marines are encouraged to always stay on defense.
A lot of people in this thread are concerned that RfK will promote ramboing, and that's understandable. But don't forget that the balance between the basic tier-one units has been tweaked significantly. Skulks have improved health and armor, bite knockback has been removed, hitbox bugs have been resolved, players can move silently by walking, and marine bunnyhopping is gone. The result is that as long as the skulks are smart enough to exploit their advantages (e.g. they don't just charge the marine at first sighting), the rambo should lose every time. RfK will actually encourage grouping, since to attack alone will result in a quick and unproductive death.
So please folks, stop applying 1.04 logic to 2.0. Always look at the big picture.
well quickly think about your handy siege cannon - works by creating gravitic anomalies. heh, hate to burst your bubble, but you're on a spaceship in most of these maps. gravitic anomalies inside a spaceship would prolly do some scructural damage? :x try to overlook the "realism" and actually look at the matter at hand.
i think there are equal arguements for and against res for kills, although i'd rather see it only on one team. adds more of the varierty, but nevermind.
well quickly think about your handy siege cannon - works by creating gravitic anomalies. heh, hate to burst your bubble, but you're on a spaceship in most of these maps. gravitic anomalies inside a spaceship would prolly do some scructural damage? :x try to overlook the "realism" and actually look at the matter at hand.
i think there are equal arguements for and against res for kills, although i'd rather see it only on one team. adds more of the varierty, but nevermind. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> owned
But please stop saying that "people are whining" and "play then complain"
Noone is whining or complaining here in my opinion.
We are just discussing if rfk might have good or bad impact on the community.
And what else can we do other than guessing? Its just concerns, nothing else.
And like Hungry Hippo said, we might get a nicely new ns, but isnt this also opening a door and welcoming the exploiters/cheaters? Those people do exactly that because they get PERSONAL benefits from this, be it score or be it res (applying more to aliens here). Just think about CS. A teamgame? Not in my eyes.
And if skill is why you like ns, well, I like to think ns is a teamgame, not deathmatch.
Of course the better team should win, but not because it has 2 elite players. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
It should win because of superior teamwork. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
I started playing computer games from the dark ages of spectrum128K.
I now play ns because of the team factor and foremost: FUN mates, just pure damn FUN!
Have FUN! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Then a seige goes off <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> Breaking your bones and turning your skin inside out dieing from body failure. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes i have nfi what im talking about <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
i am just worryed about public servers where people are not of the same skill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What happens? The team with the highest level of skill will probably win. That's what's <i>meant</i> to happen.
i am just worryed about public servers where people are not of the same skill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What happens? The team with the highest level of skill will probably win. That's what's <i>meant</i> to happen. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't this happen in all games, if one team is better than the other, obviously the other team will win.
Failure to stick together and stay alive just benefits the other team. Sticking together and getting a better kill ratio will seriously improve your chances.
It doesn't stop suicide attacks from being viable, it just makes you think as to whether such a suicide run will end up benefiting yourself or the other team more.
From a kharaa perspective, it also means that a good or careful or sneaky player can rapidly accumulate resources to assist in either gorging & building a hive, or quickly evolving to Onos. It adds lots of depth.
From a marine perspective, it allows marines to defend more effectively. A wasteful skulk assault on a base will provide enough resources to ensure that next time they turn up, there are two or three more turrets waiting for them.
Finally, it's also the only way for a team without a node to get enough resources to build, since there is no base resource income anymore. If a team has no node, it has no income apart from kills.
Failure to stick together and stay alive just benefits the other team. Sticking together and getting a better kill ratio will seriously improve your chances.
It doesn't stop suicide attacks from being viable, it just makes you think as to whether such a suicide run will end up benefiting yourself or the other team more.
From a kharaa perspective, it also means that a good or careful or sneaky player can rapidly accumulate resources to assist in either gorging & building a hive, or quickly evolving to Onos. It adds lots of depth.
From a marine perspective, it allows marines to defend more effectively. A wasteful skulk assault on a base will provide enough resources to ensure that next time they turn up, there are two or three more turrets waiting for them.
Finally, it's also the only way for a team without a node to get enough resources to build, since there is no base resource income anymore. If a team has no node, it has no income apart from kills. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG!!!! PLAYTEST LEAD <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
OK PEOPLE, YOU HEARD THE MAN!
(btw forget my other posts in here)
GOGOGO 2.0!!!!!
(if you re thinking I m a psycho, well, maybe I am, but more important:
I JUST REALISED I LL BE THE QUICKEST ONOS ANYWAY! MUHARHARHARHAR!
WHO CARES ABOUT THE REST? MUHARHAR
I LL STAY AT MARINE BASE AND KILL ALL MARINES TILL I GROW ROOTS ON MY LEFGS AND BECOME A HIVE MYSELF! /me selfish little ****)
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Case Closed-
But why i say it's still normal, and balanced, is because in, 1.04, alot of marines would jump and have a push-away effect when a skulk attacked them with bite, in 2.0 that is no longer an issue the push back effect is away as is the bhop for marines, so even 1 skulk could just have cloaking, and hide right near a resource node (wont be able to see you) then you just tkae them out, also it's way harder, it'll be balanced, hard to explain, but once it's released you'll see, it just... works <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->