<!--QuoteBegin--Rennex+Jul 16 2003, 08:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex @ Jul 16 2003, 08:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 16 2003, 01:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 16 2003, 01:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And what about the aliens? Going for the second hive ASAP seems to be the predominant strat right now!
More importantly, how would you go about fixing this? Is it a really big issue?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm gonna give you a scenario:
8 on 8, ns_eclipse. Aliens start in comp core. Right off the bat, three guys go gorge. One caps south loop node, one caps maint, and one starts to lays two OC's in maintenance. All this right off the bat since aliens start with 25 res.
Within two minutes, you will have three active nodes and the start of a defense for the unbuilt hive. With the current res system, a skulk will hit 45 res very rapidly as the game goes on and he gets kills. Usually as soon as a skulk hits 45, he goes gorge and drops a hive, since a hive costs 30 and morphing into a gorge costs 15.
The benefits of an extra hive = faster spawning, another spawn point incase the original hive dies, another level of attacks, and the ability to build another type of upgrade chamber.
Hives still take a little bit of time to complete building, so its just smarter to drop the hive before you drop upgrades. Once that hive starts to build, however, a skulk will go gorge to drop three of an upgrade chamber. The thing is, skulks don't really *need* an upgrade early game. Plus players are more inclined to spend their hard earned res throwin up a hive than dropping three chambers I've noticed.
"Going for the second hive ASAP seems to be the predominant strat right now!" Doesn't everyone go for the war factory right after the barracks in CnC games? Teching up is where you get the big toys and usually more fun.
Sidenote, this is the longest post I've made yet. GG. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> longest post and very innaccurate. I'm assuming this was all a big lame joke. 30 rez for 2nd hive?
<!--QuoteBegin--Butt monkey salad+Jul 16 2003, 08:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Butt monkey salad @ Jul 16 2003, 08:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Rennex+Jul 16 2003, 08:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex @ Jul 16 2003, 08:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 16 2003, 01:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 16 2003, 01:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And what about the aliens? Going for the second hive ASAP seems to be the predominant strat right now!
More importantly, how would you go about fixing this? Is it a really big issue?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm gonna give you a scenario:
8 on 8, ns_eclipse. Aliens start in comp core. Right off the bat, three guys go gorge. One caps south loop node, one caps maint, and one starts to lays two OC's in maintenance. All this right off the bat since aliens start with 25 res.
Within two minutes, you will have three active nodes and the start of a defense for the unbuilt hive. With the current res system, a skulk will hit 45 res very rapidly as the game goes on and he gets kills. Usually as soon as a skulk hits 45, he goes gorge and drops a hive, since a hive costs 30 and morphing into a gorge costs 15.
The benefits of an extra hive = faster spawning, another spawn point incase the original hive dies, another level of attacks, and the ability to build another type of upgrade chamber.
Hives still take a little bit of time to complete building, so its just smarter to drop the hive before you drop upgrades. Once that hive starts to build, however, a skulk will go gorge to drop three of an upgrade chamber. The thing is, skulks don't really *need* an upgrade early game. Plus players are more inclined to spend their hard earned res throwin up a hive than dropping three chambers I've noticed.
"Going for the second hive ASAP seems to be the predominant strat right now!" Doesn't everyone go for the war factory right after the barracks in CnC games? Teching up is where you get the big toys and usually more fun.
Sidenote, this is the longest post I've made yet. GG. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> longest post and very innaccurate. I'm assuming this was all a big lame joke. 30 rez for 2nd hive? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah 30 Res for a hive in 2.0
<!--QuoteBegin--Rennex+Jul 16 2003, 09:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex @ Jul 16 2003, 09:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "Going for the second hive ASAP seems to be the predominant strat right now!" Doesn't everyone go for the war factory right after the barracks in CnC games? Teching up is where you get the big toys and usually more fun. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In Warcraft 3, I immediatly do NOT tech to teir 2 the majority of the times. Why should it be that aliens immediatly tech to their second hives ASAP?
Similarly, why should the marines tech up to the ultimate weapon ASAP every time as well?
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Salad was gone for a VERY long time. He doesn't know what's going on.
Anyways, you want more diverse games? Beef up stuff (like the seige, for example) that can match the power and speed of the HMG and GL. Right now aliens can throw up defensive sturctures really quickly and cheeply, and the HMG and GL does the job that the seige is SUPPOSED to do (take down structures), except a lot better. Remove LOS requirement and it'll be popular again.
Let's see...give the hmg a spin-up time to make it slightly less effective against maurading skulks. Give the shottie a damage boost (so people will consider using that more instead of the HMG all the time). Maybe make a new upgrade available at the armory that upgrades the lmg to 75/300 to make the LMG still stay competive even midgame.
And for God's sake fix bilebomb so once hive two comes up all marine bases won't go *poof* so marines can actually hold ground and hold nodes.
Forlorn, are you talking about ideas and suggestions to add more strategic depth to the tech tree? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, or, should there be this kind of depth to the tech tree?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In Warcraft 3, I immediatly do NOT tech to teir 2 the majority of the times. Why should it be that aliens immediatly tech to their second hives ASAP?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't, but many people do at least in Reign of Chaos anyway...
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 16 2003, 10:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 16 2003, 10:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Similarly, why should the marines tech up to the ultimate weapon ASAP every time as well? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines don't have to tech up to the "ultimate weapon" everytime. You have no insight into the game yet, you have no idea what you are talking about.
I have some insight into 2.0, but I'll be the first to admit, its probably alot deeper that I know.. we'll all find out a few months after release just how things are panning out.
I really wish people would stop makeing bird-brained conclusions about 2.0 before its even out! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From what I am reading in the beta forums everyday now, the rush for the HMG seems to be the prevailing strat<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wrong, unfortunately i think your reading a few too many of savants posts.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 16 2003, 10:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 16 2003, 10:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In Warcraft 3, I immediatly do NOT tech to teir 2 the majority of the times. Why should it be that aliens immediatly tech to their second hives ASAP?
Similarly, why should the marines tech up to the ultimate weapon ASAP every time as well? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Jeez read Forlorn. I listed reasons why its better to tech to a second hive, but you have the freedom to build whatever the hell you want. You don't NEED to build a second hive before chambers, but it certainly is a good investment.
<!--QuoteBegin--Rennex+Jul 16 2003, 11:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex @ Jul 16 2003, 11:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 16 2003, 10:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 16 2003, 10:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In Warcraft 3, I immediatly do NOT tech to teir 2 the majority of the times. Why should it be that aliens immediatly tech to their second hives ASAP?
Similarly, why should the marines tech up to the ultimate weapon ASAP every time as well? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Jeez read Forlorn. I listed reasons why its better to tech to a second hive, but you have the freedom to build whatever the hell you want. You don't NEED to build a second hive before chambers, but it certainly is a good investment. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But that is what I'm talking about. You guys have obviously found the best way to approach things as the aliens.
The question remains:
Why should there be a "best" build order to aliens?
Instead of having a D/M/S chamber build of 1.04, you guys now have build hive/chamber of choice method.
I like how all chambers are viable now, but the hive rushing is what seems bad to me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You don't, but many people do at least in Reign of Chaos anyway... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are serious disadvantages and advantages to that method. I know if a person quick techs and I can kill his workers, he's gonna be screwed because he will be in the process of teching up and will have to cancel construction if he wants more workers. I know I've won a game already because they quick teched and I just rushed their workers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why should there be a "best" build order to aliens?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because there is always a most efficient path. NS and games in general are based on a mathematical system. Look at Starcraft: the process you have to follow in a Terran VS protoss is well known: it s a most efficient path using maximum efficiency units (vultures and tanks). Another question is <i>how</i> you apply that strategy. It is the same thing for Kharaa in 2.0. And as starcraft, alternative strategies exist.
And, as stated before HMG rush is not the only way to win. Aliens can really see it coming and prepare themselves with lerks and gorges. If the aliens lose because of a hmg rush, it is not because of the rush but because of their lack of scouting.
Statements like "Marines can not win without HMG rush" as Forlorn said earlier is completely false and unfounded. If the aliens do nothing to see the rush coming, and only react when they see "our hive is under attack" then they deserve to lose.
I kind of agree what your principles Forlorn, but I think you're taking comments in the beta discussion forum too seriously. Ideally there should never be a single "best path". The best path should only be best for a couple situations, not all. For ex, rushing is best when aliens are expanding. Rushing is NOT best when aliens are defending <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> A best versatile path should only be marginally better other versatile paths.
<!--QuoteBegin--Draconis+Jul 17 2003, 10:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Draconis @ Jul 17 2003, 10:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why should there be a "best" build order to aliens?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because there is always a most efficient path. NS and games in general are based on a mathematical system. Look at Starcraft: the process you have to follow in a Terran VS protoss is well known: it s a most efficient path using maximum efficiency units (vultures and tanks). Another question is <i>how</i> you apply that strategy. It is the same thing for Kharaa in 2.0. And as starcraft, alternative strategies exist.
And, as stated before HMG rush is not the only way to win. Aliens can really see it coming and prepare themselves with lerks and gorges. If the aliens lose because of a hmg rush, it is not because of the rush but because of their lack of scouting.
Statements like "Marines can not win without HMG rush" as Forlorn said earlier is completely false and unfounded. If the aliens do nothing to see the rush coming, and only react when they see "our hive is under attack" then they deserve to lose. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> When there is a most efficient path, this is a sign of imbalance. I don't think that when there is a most effecient path it is a gamebreaking problem, however, if we all want 2.0 to be as good as possible, then all paths should be just as efficient as each other.
If you think that it isn't possible to come out with damn near perfectly balanced system, you are <b>wrong</b>. It is because these games are mostly based on mathematical systems that I can faithfully say it can be balanced.
I do realize how you apply these paths is the real game making situations that we will live by, but again, my concern is that having these most efficient paths is what made 1.04 so boring after 3-4 months.
Now, for the last time, I am not referring to a HMG rush where a bunch of marines sit at base waiting for their HMG's to pop into their hands. No. No. No. No. <---- No.
What I speak of is that the first major tech marines go for, nearly EVERY time, is an HMG. The marines run around capping nodes, killing aliens, but the first major purchase marines make is the HMG in most cases. They have to in order to win. They don't go for any weapon or armor upgrades, or HA or JP, or the GL. Now if you say this is false then I must be imagining the tons of posts where people are offering solutions on how to make the HMG not the only really viable tech to go for.
One final thing: Just because other games such as Starcraft have paths of least resistance, doesn't mean that it is right. Look at Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne, blizzard has done a pretty damn good job of making nearly all strats viable and no particular path has advantages over all others. (Well, none that I am aware of at this time)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Look at Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne, blizzard has done a pretty damn good job of making nearly all strats viable and no particular path has advantages over all others. (Well, none that I am aware of at this time)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First thing first, Warcraft 3 is not balanced at the moment and is very far from it. Just look at NE vs Undead a bit. Starcraft has proven through time to be the only RTS to have 3 totally different sides balanced. /end side note
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When there is a most efficient path, this is a sign of imbalance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. There is imbalance when <i>only</i> that most efficient path remains compared to other strategies. Look at Starcraft and strategies like the Stove. Which was why 1.04 was imbalanced: jp/hmg overshadowed every other strategies. Which i can assure, and i am sure most of Vets/PTs, isnt the case of 2.0.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They have to in order to win. They don't go for any weapon or armor upgrades, or HA or JP, or the GL.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the alien team is smart enough, they can counter it easily. Lerks again level 0 armor soften the marines a lot. Enough for skulks to go and finish them slowly. Now if the marines seriously outnumber the lerks/gorges with hmg, it looks they won the ressource war, and thus deserve to win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I speak of is that the first major tech marines go for, nearly EVERY time, is an HMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont want be rude, but HMG is <i>part of</i> the marine tech tree: you cant build a protolab without the ability to drop HMG. Saying that is a completely obvious statement, it is the same than saying "building an IP is necessary to win". Yes, marines are forced to tech to HMG, not because it is an uber-cannon , but because it is in their tech tree, and necessary for proto-lab.
Sorry but I don't really get how you can say that Adv Armory is the 1st thing teched every game if you haven't even watched a game. It's really up to the comm. I've seen comms go for weapon/armor upgrades first/ adv armory 1st/ both at the same time.
Again the only problem I see with marine tech is that HA overshadows JPs as the 3rd Tier Tech, but hopefully that will be addressed before release.
<!--QuoteBegin--Draconis+Jul 17 2003, 02:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Draconis @ Jul 17 2003, 02:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Look at Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne, blizzard has done a pretty damn good job of making nearly all strats viable and no particular path has advantages over all others. (Well, none that I am aware of at this time)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First thing first, Warcraft 3 is not balanced at the moment and is very far from it. Just look at NE vs Undead a bit. Starcraft has proven through time to be the only RTS to have 3 totally different sides balanced. /end side note
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When there is a most efficient path, this is a sign of imbalance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. There is imbalance when <i>only</i> that most efficient path remains compared to other strategies. Look at Starcraft and strategies like the Stove. Which was why 1.04 was imbalanced: jp/hmg overshadowed every other strategies. Which i can assure, and i am sure most of Vets/PTs, isnt the case of 2.0.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They have to in order to win. They don't go for any weapon or armor upgrades, or HA or JP, or the GL.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the alien team is smart enough, they can counter it easily. Lerks again level 0 armor soften the marines a lot. Enough for skulks to go and finish them slowly. Now if the marines seriously outnumber the lerks/gorges with hmg, it looks they won the ressource war, and thus deserve to win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I speak of is that the first major tech marines go for, nearly EVERY time, is an HMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont want be rude, but HMG is <i>part of</i> the marine tech tree: you cant build a protolab without the ability to drop HMG. Saying that is a completely obvious statement, it is the same than saying "building an IP is necessary to win". Yes, marines are forced to tech to HMG, not because it is an uber-cannon ™, but because it is in their tech tree, and necessary for proto-lab. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To your first point:
You haven't played the expansion to Warcraft 3 yet, have you? And even in the orginal, UD vs. NE was nearly perfectly balanced. In fact, all the sides were. Proof of this was that all the top players were a mix of all the races, however the majority of the top players were UD and Human(slightly, and this was right before TFT was released). I do believe the least top players were the orc.
To your next point:
If one strategy is safer to use (in other words, most efficient) in terms of counterability then you most certainly have balance issues.
To your last point:
Well, if HMG is along the natural path of teching up, then I guess I can't have any qualms about it. It seems a more diverse marine tech tree is subject for another NS version. Thank you for calming my fears.
Now, about the aliens going for two hives ASAP:
Is that wrong/right? Is it a big issue, or a problem that should be fixed before 2.0 is released? Any possible solutions for this tech tree stagnation?
Hey Forlorn! I've got an idea!!! Use your amazing knowledge and go design your own game! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Forlorn, are you talking about ideas and suggestions to add more strategic depth to the tech tree? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, or, should there be this kind of depth to the tech tree?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've been thinking about this Forlorn.
I think there can definately be more depth in the NS tech tree but it will be done gradually over several major version updates. Take a glance at the changelogs for v2.0 and I think why it'll take time to achieve depth becomes quite obvious. The current weapons, upgrades, and tech are still being tweaked. These <i>Foundation Elements</i> must be balanced and rebalanced to achieve the basic gameplay equilibrium Flayra has in mind for NS. (NOTE: Which I think is particularly difficult because NS is an FPS/RTS)
I don't think it would be sensible to add a whole bunch of tech levels and weapons <b>until</b> the <i>Baseline Gameplay Balance</i> has been established. Balancing gameplay, I suspect, can be like the scientific method in ways; once the baseline has been established you don't want to change a whole bunch of variables at once because it'll be very difficult to know what variables influenced what changes when you put it to a test. But the first step will be to establish the baseline variables.
In the case of NS, I think Flayra is still tweaking the <i>Foundation Elements</i> in order to establish a <i>Baseline Gameplay Balance</i> that compliments the FPS, RTS, and teamplay aspects. I reckon it'll take a slew of minor updates after v2.0 to get it just like Flay wants it.
So to make a long arse story short, yes I think there should and will be greater strategic depth to the tech tree. I don't think there is a shortage of ideas to deepen NS strategically but it'll have to wait until the <i>baseline gameplay balance</i> has been established first. What may seem like a shallow tech tree right now is literally just the beginning. It's gonna be one helluva ride I can tell you that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Tell me if you think I'm blowing smoke.
PS: Oh, all those "terms" I italicized are kinda made up because I'm not a game designer and I wasn't quite sure what the proper term was. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I hope you kinda get what I mean.
<!--QuoteBegin--Fantasmo+Jul 17 2003, 10:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Jul 17 2003, 10:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In the case of NS, I think Flayra is still tweaking the <i>Foundation Elements</i> in order to establish a <i>Baseline Gameplay Balance</i> that compliments the FPS, RTS, and teamplay aspects. I reckon it'll take a slew of minor updates after v2.0 to get it just like Flay wants it.
So to make a long arse story short, yes I think there should and will be greater strategic depth to the tech tree. I don't think there is a shortage of ideas to deepen NS strategically but it'll have to wait until the <i>baseline gameplay balance</i> has been established first. What may seem like a shallow tech tree right now is literally just the beginning. It's gonna be one helluva ride I can tell you that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes exactly.
Forlorn, are you talking about ideas and suggestions to add more strategic depth to the tech tree? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, or, should there be this kind of depth to the tech tree?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've been thinking about this Forlorn.
I think there can definately be more depth in the NS tech tree but it will be done gradually over several major versions updates. Take a glance at the changelogs for v2.0 and I think why it'll take time to achieve depth becomes quite obvious. The current weapons, upgrades, and tech are still being tweaked. These <i>Foundation Elements</i> must be balancing and rebalancing to achieve the basic gameplay equilibrium Flayra has in mind for NS. (NOTE: Which I think is particularly difficult because NS is an FPS/RTS)
I don't think it would be sensible to add a whole bunch of tech levels and weapons <b>until</b> the <i>Baseline Gameplay Balance</i> has been established. Balancing gameplay, I suspect, can be like the scientific method in ways; once the baseline has been established you don't want to change a whole bunch of variables at once because it'll be very difficult to know what variables influenced what changes when you put it to a test. But the first step will be to establish the baseline variables.
In the case of NS, I think Flayra is still tweaking the <i>Foundation Elements</i> in order to establish a <i>Baseline Gameplay Balance</i> that compliments the FPS, RTS, and teamplay aspects. I reckon it'll take a slew of minor updates after v2.0 to get it just like Flay wants it.
So to make a long arse story short, yes I think there should and will be greater strategic depth to the tech tree. I don't think there is a shortage of ideas to deepen NS strategically but it'll have to wait until the <i>baseline gameplay balance</i> has been established first. What may seem like a shallow tech tree right now is literally just the beginning. It's gonna be one helluva ride I can tell you that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Tell me if you think I'm blowing smoke.
PS: Oh, all those "terms" I italicized are kinda made up because I'm not a game designer and I wasn't quite sure what the proper term was. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I hope you kinda get what I mean. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, I realize that the marine tech tree must stay the way it is right now. The vets reminded me how linear the marine tech tree is, so there isn't any point in nerfing the HMG too much right now or making any other changes. That was a good analyzation, though.
However, what about the aliens? Should nabbing one hive before any chamber remain the predominant strat it is now? Should it stay the same for simplicity's sake, or should it be changed for possible diversity?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hey Forlorn! I've got an idea!!! Use your amazing knowledge and go design your own game! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
postcount++; goto Forum Rules;
Forum Rules: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please stay on topic. Rambling or off-topic topics may be deleted without warning.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Frogg2+Jul 18 2003, 12:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frogg2 @ Jul 18 2003, 12:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I know Flayra doesn't want the next client patch to take 5months.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure all of these "imbalance" issues will be dealt with in the future, if really necessary, and the history will repeat itself here(like in previous versions of NS).
The biggest balancing factor are imho the minds of the people playing. If we could somehow create bots that would act in the best possible way in every situation, then we could probably see if some feature in the game was truly imbalanced...which we unfortunately cannot(sorry PTs <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->). And even then, the game would become impossible to balance, since there would always be a Path Of Least Resistance <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> .
Aww, I get headache reading these balancing threads...
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Jul 16 2003, 02:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Jul 16 2003, 02:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sense when did it take a team of Kharaa to take down a marine or 2? In 1.04 1 v 1 in an Open enviroment or hall is always going to be the Human, 1 v 1 in a closed enviroment whit no stright aways, the Alien should always win it.
If in 2.0 basic LMG vs 2 Skulks is going to end up becomming a team of lerks and Skulks vs 2 Marines, I will be some what sad!
But I have no ide what 2.0 will be like except what I have read.
15 Days <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Where did you get the idea that I was talking about 1 or 2 marines? Quit reading things into my post that aren't there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, what about the aliens? Should nabbing one hive before any chamber remain the predominant strat it is now? Should it stay the same for simplicity's sake, or should it be changed for possible diversity?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, grabbing one hive before upgrades is really worth it, and i agree kinda sad. But it wont take long to balance it: part of the problems is that upgrades chambers are expensive at beginning, and skulk dont really need upgrades now.
As said earlier, Flayra will add some patch to add complexity in the game. Keep faith in Flay! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Draconis+Jul 18 2003, 04:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Draconis @ Jul 18 2003, 04:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, what about the aliens? Should nabbing one hive before any chamber remain the predominant strat it is now? Should it stay the same for simplicity's sake, or should it be changed for possible diversity?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, grabbing one hive before upgrades is really worth it, and i agree kinda sad. But it wont take long to balance it: part of the problems is that upgrades chambers are expensive at beginning, and skulk dont really need upgrades now.
As said earlier, Flayra will add some patch to add complexity in the game. Keep faith in Flay! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> /me keeps the faith alive, prays to his natural-selection folder to prove it
Comments
And what about the aliens? Going for the second hive ASAP seems to be the predominant strat right now!
More importantly, how would you go about fixing this? Is it a really big issue?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm gonna give you a scenario:
8 on 8, ns_eclipse. Aliens start in comp core. Right off the bat, three guys go gorge. One caps south loop node, one caps maint, and one starts to lays two OC's in maintenance. All this right off the bat since aliens start with 25 res.
Within two minutes, you will have three active nodes and the start of a defense for the unbuilt hive. With the current res system, a skulk will hit 45 res very rapidly as the game goes on and he gets kills. Usually as soon as a skulk hits 45, he goes gorge and drops a hive, since a hive costs 30 and morphing into a gorge costs 15.
The benefits of an extra hive = faster spawning, another spawn point incase the original hive dies, another level of attacks, and the ability to build another type of upgrade chamber.
Hives still take a little bit of time to complete building, so its just smarter to drop the hive before you drop upgrades. Once that hive starts to build, however, a skulk will go gorge to drop three of an upgrade chamber. The thing is, skulks don't really *need* an upgrade early game. Plus players are more inclined to spend their hard earned res throwin up a hive than dropping three chambers I've noticed.
"Going for the second hive ASAP seems to be the predominant strat right now!" Doesn't everyone go for the war factory right after the barracks in CnC games? Teching up is where you get the big toys and usually more fun.
Sidenote, this is the longest post I've made yet. GG. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
longest post and very innaccurate. I'm assuming this was all a big lame joke. 30 rez for 2nd hive?
And what about the aliens? Going for the second hive ASAP seems to be the predominant strat right now!
More importantly, how would you go about fixing this? Is it a really big issue?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm gonna give you a scenario:
8 on 8, ns_eclipse. Aliens start in comp core. Right off the bat, three guys go gorge. One caps south loop node, one caps maint, and one starts to lays two OC's in maintenance. All this right off the bat since aliens start with 25 res.
Within two minutes, you will have three active nodes and the start of a defense for the unbuilt hive. With the current res system, a skulk will hit 45 res very rapidly as the game goes on and he gets kills. Usually as soon as a skulk hits 45, he goes gorge and drops a hive, since a hive costs 30 and morphing into a gorge costs 15.
The benefits of an extra hive = faster spawning, another spawn point incase the original hive dies, another level of attacks, and the ability to build another type of upgrade chamber.
Hives still take a little bit of time to complete building, so its just smarter to drop the hive before you drop upgrades. Once that hive starts to build, however, a skulk will go gorge to drop three of an upgrade chamber. The thing is, skulks don't really *need* an upgrade early game. Plus players are more inclined to spend their hard earned res throwin up a hive than dropping three chambers I've noticed.
"Going for the second hive ASAP seems to be the predominant strat right now!" Doesn't everyone go for the war factory right after the barracks in CnC games? Teching up is where you get the big toys and usually more fun.
Sidenote, this is the longest post I've made yet. GG. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
longest post and very innaccurate. I'm assuming this was all a big lame joke. 30 rez for 2nd hive? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah 30 Res for a hive in 2.0
Forlorn, are you talking about ideas and suggestions to add more strategic depth to the tech tree?
In Warcraft 3, I immediatly do NOT tech to teir 2 the majority of the times. Why should it be that aliens immediatly tech to their second hives ASAP?
Similarly, why should the marines tech up to the ultimate weapon ASAP every time as well?
Anyways, you want more diverse games? Beef up stuff (like the seige, for example) that can match the power and speed of the HMG and GL. Right now aliens can throw up defensive sturctures really quickly and cheeply, and the HMG and GL does the job that the seige is SUPPOSED to do (take down structures), except a lot better. Remove LOS requirement and it'll be popular again.
Let's see...give the hmg a spin-up time to make it slightly less effective against maurading skulks. Give the shottie a damage boost (so people will consider using that more instead of the HMG all the time). Maybe make a new upgrade available at the armory that upgrades the lmg to 75/300 to make the LMG still stay competive even midgame.
And for God's sake fix bilebomb so once hive two comes up all marine bases won't go *poof* so marines can actually hold ground and hold nodes.
Forlorn, are you talking about ideas and suggestions to add more strategic depth to the tech tree? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, or, should there be this kind of depth to the tech tree?
You don't, but many people do at least in Reign of Chaos anyway...
Marines don't have to tech up to the "ultimate weapon" everytime. You have no insight into the game yet, you have no idea what you are talking about.
I have some insight into 2.0, but I'll be the first to admit, its probably alot deeper that I know.. we'll all find out a few months after release just how things are panning out.
I really wish people would stop makeing bird-brained conclusions about 2.0 before its even out! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
wrong, unfortunately i think your reading a few too many of savants posts.
In Warcraft 3, I immediatly do NOT tech to teir 2 the majority of the times. Why should it be that aliens immediatly tech to their second hives ASAP?
Similarly, why should the marines tech up to the ultimate weapon ASAP every time as well? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jeez read Forlorn. I listed reasons why its better to tech to a second hive, but you have the freedom to build whatever the hell you want. You don't NEED to build a second hive before chambers, but it certainly is a good investment.
In Warcraft 3, I immediatly do NOT tech to teir 2 the majority of the times. Why should it be that aliens immediatly tech to their second hives ASAP?
Similarly, why should the marines tech up to the ultimate weapon ASAP every time as well? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jeez read Forlorn. I listed reasons why its better to tech to a second hive, but you have the freedom to build whatever the hell you want. You don't NEED to build a second hive before chambers, but it certainly is a good investment. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that is what I'm talking about. You guys have obviously found the best way to approach things as the aliens.
The question remains:
Why should there be a "best" build order to aliens?
Instead of having a D/M/S chamber build of 1.04, you guys now have build hive/chamber of choice method.
I like how all chambers are viable now, but the hive rushing is what seems bad to me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You don't, but many people do at least in Reign of Chaos anyway... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are serious disadvantages and advantages to that method. I know if a person quick techs and I can kill his workers, he's gonna be screwed because he will be in the process of teching up and will have to cancel construction if he wants more workers. I know I've won a game already because they quick teched and I just rushed their workers.
Because there is always a most efficient path. NS and games in general are based on a mathematical system. Look at Starcraft: the process you have to follow in a Terran VS protoss is well known: it s a most efficient path using maximum efficiency units (vultures and tanks). Another question is <i>how</i> you apply that strategy. It is the same thing for Kharaa in 2.0. And as starcraft, alternative strategies exist.
And, as stated before HMG rush is not the only way to win. Aliens can really see it coming and prepare themselves with lerks and gorges. If the aliens lose because of a hmg rush, it is not because of the rush but because of their lack of scouting.
Statements like "Marines can not win without HMG rush" as Forlorn said earlier is completely false and unfounded. If the aliens do nothing to see the rush coming, and only react when they see "our hive is under attack" then they deserve to lose.
Because there is always a most efficient path. NS and games in general are based on a mathematical system. Look at Starcraft: the process you have to follow in a Terran VS protoss is well known: it s a most efficient path using maximum efficiency units (vultures and tanks). Another question is <i>how</i> you apply that strategy. It is the same thing for Kharaa in 2.0. And as starcraft, alternative strategies exist.
And, as stated before HMG rush is not the only way to win. Aliens can really see it coming and prepare themselves with lerks and gorges. If the aliens lose because of a hmg rush, it is not because of the rush but because of their lack of scouting.
Statements like "Marines can not win without HMG rush" as Forlorn said earlier is completely false and unfounded. If the aliens do nothing to see the rush coming, and only react when they see "our hive is under attack" then they deserve to lose. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
When there is a most efficient path, this is a sign of imbalance. I don't think that when there is a most effecient path it is a gamebreaking problem, however, if we all want 2.0 to be as good as possible, then all paths should be just as efficient as each other.
If you think that it isn't possible to come out with damn near perfectly balanced system, you are <b>wrong</b>. It is because these games are mostly based on mathematical systems that I can faithfully say it can be balanced.
I do realize how you apply these paths is the real game making situations that we will live by, but again, my concern is that having these most efficient paths is what made 1.04 so boring after 3-4 months.
Now, for the last time, I am not referring to a HMG rush where a bunch of marines sit at base waiting for their HMG's to pop into their hands. No. No. No. No. <---- No.
What I speak of is that the first major tech marines go for, nearly EVERY time, is an HMG. The marines run around capping nodes, killing aliens, but the first major purchase marines make is the HMG in most cases. They have to in order to win. They don't go for any weapon or armor upgrades, or HA or JP, or the GL. Now if you say this is false then I must be imagining the tons of posts where people are offering solutions on how to make the HMG not the only really viable tech to go for.
One final thing: Just because other games such as Starcraft have paths of least resistance, doesn't mean that it is right. Look at Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne, blizzard has done a pretty damn good job of making nearly all strats viable and no particular path has advantages over all others. (Well, none that I am aware of at this time)
First thing first, Warcraft 3 is not balanced at the moment and is very far from it. Just look at NE vs Undead a bit. Starcraft has proven through time to be the only RTS to have 3 totally different sides balanced. /end side note
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When there is a most efficient path, this is a sign of imbalance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. There is imbalance when <i>only</i> that most efficient path remains compared to other strategies. Look at Starcraft and strategies like the Stove. Which was why 1.04 was imbalanced: jp/hmg overshadowed every other strategies. Which i can assure, and i am sure most of Vets/PTs, isnt the case of 2.0.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They have to in order to win. They don't go for any weapon or armor upgrades, or HA or JP, or the GL.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the alien team is smart enough, they can counter it easily. Lerks again level 0 armor soften the marines a lot. Enough for skulks to go and finish them slowly. Now if the marines seriously outnumber the lerks/gorges with hmg, it looks they won the ressource war, and thus deserve to win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I speak of is that the first major tech marines go for, nearly EVERY time, is an HMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont want be rude, but HMG is <i>part of</i> the marine tech tree: you cant build a protolab without the ability to drop HMG. Saying that is a completely obvious statement, it is the same than saying "building an IP is necessary to win". Yes, marines are forced to tech to HMG, not because it is an uber-cannon , but because it is in their tech tree, and necessary for proto-lab.
Sorry but I don't really get how you can say that Adv Armory is the 1st thing teched every game if you haven't even watched a game. It's really up to the comm. I've seen comms go for weapon/armor upgrades first/ adv armory 1st/ both at the same time.
Again the only problem I see with marine tech is that HA overshadows JPs as the 3rd Tier Tech, but hopefully that will be addressed before release.
First thing first, Warcraft 3 is not balanced at the moment and is very far from it. Just look at NE vs Undead a bit. Starcraft has proven through time to be the only RTS to have 3 totally different sides balanced. /end side note
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When there is a most efficient path, this is a sign of imbalance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. There is imbalance when <i>only</i> that most efficient path remains compared to other strategies. Look at Starcraft and strategies like the Stove. Which was why 1.04 was imbalanced: jp/hmg overshadowed every other strategies. Which i can assure, and i am sure most of Vets/PTs, isnt the case of 2.0.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They have to in order to win. They don't go for any weapon or armor upgrades, or HA or JP, or the GL.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the alien team is smart enough, they can counter it easily. Lerks again level 0 armor soften the marines a lot. Enough for skulks to go and finish them slowly. Now if the marines seriously outnumber the lerks/gorges with hmg, it looks they won the ressource war, and thus deserve to win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I speak of is that the first major tech marines go for, nearly EVERY time, is an HMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont want be rude, but HMG is <i>part of</i> the marine tech tree: you cant build a protolab without the ability to drop HMG. Saying that is a completely obvious statement, it is the same than saying "building an IP is necessary to win". Yes, marines are forced to tech to HMG, not because it is an uber-cannon ™, but because it is in their tech tree, and necessary for proto-lab. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
To your first point:
You haven't played the expansion to Warcraft 3 yet, have you? And even in the orginal, UD vs. NE was nearly perfectly balanced. In fact, all the sides were. Proof of this was that all the top players were a mix of all the races, however the majority of the top players were UD and Human(slightly, and this was right before TFT was released). I do believe the least top players were the orc.
To your next point:
If one strategy is safer to use (in other words, most efficient) in terms of counterability then you most certainly have balance issues.
To your last point:
Well, if HMG is along the natural path of teching up, then I guess I can't have any qualms about it. It seems a more diverse marine tech tree is subject for another NS version. Thank you for calming my fears.
Now, about the aliens going for two hives ASAP:
Is that wrong/right? Is it a big issue, or a problem that should be fixed before 2.0 is released? Any possible solutions for this tech tree stagnation?
Forlorn, are you talking about ideas and suggestions to add more strategic depth to the tech tree? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, or, should there be this kind of depth to the tech tree?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been thinking about this Forlorn.
I think there can definately be more depth in the NS tech tree but it will be done gradually over several major version updates. Take a glance at the changelogs for v2.0 and I think why it'll take time to achieve depth becomes quite obvious. The current weapons, upgrades, and tech are still being tweaked. These <i>Foundation Elements</i> must be balanced and rebalanced to achieve the basic gameplay equilibrium Flayra has in mind for NS. (NOTE: Which I think is particularly difficult because NS is an FPS/RTS)
I don't think it would be sensible to add a whole bunch of tech levels and weapons <b>until</b> the <i>Baseline Gameplay Balance</i> has been established. Balancing gameplay, I suspect, can be like the scientific method in ways; once the baseline has been established you don't want to change a whole bunch of variables at once because it'll be very difficult to know what variables influenced what changes when you put it to a test. But the first step will be to establish the baseline variables.
In the case of NS, I think Flayra is still tweaking the <i>Foundation Elements</i> in order to establish a <i>Baseline Gameplay Balance</i> that compliments the FPS, RTS, and teamplay aspects. I reckon it'll take a slew of minor updates after v2.0 to get it just like Flay wants it.
So to make a long arse story short, yes I think there should and will be greater strategic depth to the tech tree. I don't think there is a shortage of ideas to deepen NS strategically but it'll have to wait until the <i>baseline gameplay balance</i> has been established first. What may seem like a shallow tech tree right now is literally just the beginning. It's gonna be one helluva ride I can tell you that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Tell me if you think I'm blowing smoke.
PS: Oh, all those "terms" I italicized are kinda made up because I'm not a game designer and I wasn't quite sure what the proper term was. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I hope you kinda get what I mean.
EDiT: .
So to make a long arse story short, yes I think there should and will be greater strategic depth to the tech tree. I don't think there is a shortage of ideas to deepen NS strategically but it'll have to wait until the <i>baseline gameplay balance</i> has been established first. What may seem like a shallow tech tree right now is literally just the beginning. It's gonna be one helluva ride I can tell you that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes exactly.
Forlorn, are you talking about ideas and suggestions to add more strategic depth to the tech tree? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, or, should there be this kind of depth to the tech tree?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been thinking about this Forlorn.
I think there can definately be more depth in the NS tech tree but it will be done gradually over several major versions updates. Take a glance at the changelogs for v2.0 and I think why it'll take time to achieve depth becomes quite obvious. The current weapons, upgrades, and tech are still being tweaked. These <i>Foundation Elements</i> must be balancing and rebalancing to achieve the basic gameplay equilibrium Flayra has in mind for NS. (NOTE: Which I think is particularly difficult because NS is an FPS/RTS)
I don't think it would be sensible to add a whole bunch of tech levels and weapons <b>until</b> the <i>Baseline Gameplay Balance</i> has been established. Balancing gameplay, I suspect, can be like the scientific method in ways; once the baseline has been established you don't want to change a whole bunch of variables at once because it'll be very difficult to know what variables influenced what changes when you put it to a test. But the first step will be to establish the baseline variables.
In the case of NS, I think Flayra is still tweaking the <i>Foundation Elements</i> in order to establish a <i>Baseline Gameplay Balance</i> that compliments the FPS, RTS, and teamplay aspects. I reckon it'll take a slew of minor updates after v2.0 to get it just like Flay wants it.
So to make a long arse story short, yes I think there should and will be greater strategic depth to the tech tree. I don't think there is a shortage of ideas to deepen NS strategically but it'll have to wait until the <i>baseline gameplay balance</i> has been established first. What may seem like a shallow tech tree right now is literally just the beginning. It's gonna be one helluva ride I can tell you that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Tell me if you think I'm blowing smoke.
PS: Oh, all those "terms" I italicized are kinda made up because I'm not a game designer and I wasn't quite sure what the proper term was. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I hope you kinda get what I mean. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I realize that the marine tech tree must stay the way it is right now. The vets reminded me how linear the marine tech tree is, so there isn't any point in nerfing the HMG too much right now or making any other changes. That was a good analyzation, though.
However, what about the aliens? Should nabbing one hive before any chamber remain the predominant strat it is now? Should it stay the same for simplicity's sake, or should it be changed for possible diversity?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hey Forlorn! I've got an idea!!! Use your amazing knowledge and go design your own game! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
postcount++; goto Forum Rules;
Forum Rules:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please stay on topic. Rambling or off-topic topics may be deleted without warning.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2.0 won't be perfect, but it will be a significant improvement.
There isn't much that is going to change before release, there will be more patches that add depth/balance later.
I know Flayra doesn't want the next client patch to take 5months.
I'm sure all of these "imbalance" issues will be dealt with in the future, if really necessary, and the history will repeat itself here(like in previous versions of NS).
The biggest balancing factor are imho the minds of the people playing. If we could somehow create bots that would act in the best possible way in every situation, then we could probably see if some feature in the game was truly imbalanced...which we unfortunately cannot(sorry PTs <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->). And even then, the game would become impossible to balance, since there would always be a Path Of Least Resistance <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> .
Aww, I get headache reading these balancing threads...
In 1.04 1 v 1 in an Open enviroment or hall is always going to be the Human, 1 v 1 in a closed enviroment whit no stright aways, the Alien should always win it.
If in 2.0 basic LMG vs 2 Skulks is going to end up becomming a team of lerks and Skulks vs 2 Marines, I will be some what sad!
But I have no ide what 2.0 will be like except what I have read.
15 Days <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where did you get the idea that I was talking about 1 or 2 marines? Quit reading things into my post that aren't there.
Yeah, grabbing one hive before upgrades is really worth it, and i agree kinda sad. But it wont take long to balance it: part of the problems is that upgrades chambers are expensive at beginning, and skulk dont really need upgrades now.
As said earlier, Flayra will add some patch to add complexity in the game. Keep faith in Flay! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yeah, grabbing one hive before upgrades is really worth it, and i agree kinda sad. But it wont take long to balance it: part of the problems is that upgrades chambers are expensive at beginning, and skulk dont really need upgrades now.
As said earlier, Flayra will add some patch to add complexity in the game. Keep faith in Flay! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
/me keeps the faith alive, prays to his natural-selection folder to prove it