2.0, The Hmg And Flayra..
Catpoker
Join Date: 2002-06-25 Member: 816Members
Join Date: 2002-06-25 Member: 816Members
<div class="IPBDescription">no comment?</div> i read the beta fourm almost every day, and it seems that almost every vet and playtester wants the HMG vs buildings to be cut in half..
yet i dont think flayra has even commented on trying it out.
i was just wondering why it has not been tried, becuase it sounds like a good idea.
GL, shotguns and seige could be taken over just the marines swiss army knife, the HMG, allowing more possibilities for driffrent gameplay
i just want to know what flayra thinks of the issue
yet i dont think flayra has even commented on trying it out.
i was just wondering why it has not been tried, becuase it sounds like a good idea.
GL, shotguns and seige could be taken over just the marines swiss army knife, the HMG, allowing more possibilities for driffrent gameplay
i just want to know what flayra thinks of the issue
Comments
As a matter of fact, I want you cut in half.
I prefer cats & pokers seperate.
Use GL?
I haven't played 2.0, so I can only speculate, but I don't see any reason to cripple marines any more when they're already hurting in the win/loss ratio.
Anyway, I very much like the idea of reducing the marine reliance on the HMG by nerfing them vs. structures, but they would definitely need boosts in other areas to compensate since they're not exactly overpowering the aliens in 2.0 right now from what I've heard. What if nade launcher damage vs. buildings was increased, but the splash damage vs. players is dramatically reduced? I'm not sure whether or not structure killing is too fast having never played 2.0, but I definitely like the idea of forcing some teamwork and versatility in HA trains. Nade launchers clearing out buildings and hives while the HMGs stand guard for units sounds a lot more fun than what goes on right now if you ask me.
In my opinion the main objective here should be to increase the specialization of the guns, thereby causing marines to have to divide into separate roles when pushing on a hive and actually work together. I've never liked the fact that the HMG is basically the silver bullet against all things alien while the GL is just a nice little convenience to clear out the concentrated OC farms. It also adds a little more strategy to both sides; the marines have to take care of eachother and fulfill their roles, and the aliens have to try to get past the HMGs take out the relatively defenseless GLs and save their structures.
Obviously it needs balancing, and as the game is right now I think such a severe nerf to HMGs would be a serious mistake. I'm not sure Flayra has enough time to do this right, so there's no use pushing for it anymore...
Why aren't they with other marines armed with HMG/Shotgun etc?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->siege still isn't all that good and requires too much res. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this on its own or compared against the far more effective swiss army knife rush?
you don't need anything but hmgs anyway so why confuse new commandos with options?
That's why you wouldn't want to equip <i>all</i> your marines with grenade launchers.
<!--QuoteBegin--criminal+Jul 21 2003, 02:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (criminal @ Jul 21 2003, 02:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->siege still isn't all that good and requires too much res.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then perhaps the siege cannon needs improvement.
<!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Jul 21 2003, 03:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jul 21 2003, 03:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What if nade launcher damage vs. buildings was increased, but the splash damage vs. players is dramatically reduced?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd rather not remove the grenade launcher's area denial role.
However I think NS 2.0 will be so different, it might be quite possible that the marines suddenly need all the firepower they can get, cus that damn leet skulk with too many kills has just evolved into an Onos and now hes ****!
<!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
90 base damage, double to structures (in 1.04).
this change simply isn't needed, theres plenty of threads on the beta forum about why and why not to put in this change, so im not gona regurgitate them here.
Use GL? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or as others said siege? But woudlnt this be doing the opposet of what you had intended? To create new tactics, or strats? This would only remove one and force you to use others. By leaving it as it is the players can use GL, siege, HMGS, what ever. They have several options open to them.
Just my Opinion. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
And, yes, I agree that marines should have a huge number of options for taking down hives. There were pretty much 3 strats in 1.04 : jp /hmg ( more preferable, least res, gl used), siege ( takes long time to set up and if they know you're there...), and HA trains ( also a lot of res, but also pretty much unstoppable unless they had fades).
It's no wonder a lot of people chose jp/hmg. But by having a lot of strategies that are simply different and not better or worse, we'll see some variety in the gameplay.
Why aren't they with other marines armed with HMG/Shotgun etc?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->siege still isn't all that good and requires too much res. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this on its own or compared against the far more effective swiss army knife rush? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why aren't they with other marines armed with HMG/Shotgun etc?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They <i>are</i>. Notice how I said "picked off".
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is this on its own or compared against the far more effective swiss army knife rush?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Compared, it's gotten signifigantly better, but it still is much much easier to supply equipment.
They <i>are</i>. Notice how I said "picked off". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why weren't the HMGers/shotgunners protecting them?
Yeah, it would take an excrutiatingly long... ten seconds. I don't think that's really a big deal. I LIKE in 1.04 how it takes some real work to knock out a hive, and I'm almost always a marine. Taking out a hive instantly with a ton of HMGs is nowhere near as satisfying as maintaining a seige position or managing to escort a GL to the hive.
In a faster, cheaper-hive game like 2.0, the hives of course have to fall faster, but even the people who DON'T want something done about the HMG seem to admit that hives and chambers are like paper to the 2.0 HMG rushes. In fact, they don't seem to have any serious arguments as to why the HMG should own over everything or why hives and chambers should collapse so easily (the comm spends the res, and then all it takes are some marginally non-retarded rines to stumble over to the hive, and it's down before the alien team is halfway across the map). I've read the vet threads: there's nothing to re-iterate on that side. It's all vague general complaints about how marines are so put upon and why must something be done to our precious marine team! But that's not the point at all. The point isn't what team is getting owned, because that can be fixed in so many other ways. The point is making the game INTERESTING. This is not Quake, where priority #1 is always to get yourself a rocketlauncher and go frag. This is supposed to be part RTS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->GLs get picked off by skulks with ease<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact that you REALLY need to keep an eye on that GL guy is part of what makes it so fun to work as a team: to sometimes succeed in getting him there and feel great, or sometimes fail and at least feel like you lost as a good faith team effort. If you lose a GL sometimes, well sorry: the game isn't called "Marines win every single time and can never fail at anything." The absolute best games I've played as a marine are those where we've had one or two strategies fail from time to time.
Furthermore, if skulks are picking him off so easily then IME, it's almost always because a) you didn't give him a jp to quickly get out of the firefight b) he is walking around with the GL enabled instead of his pistol (a gamble of the GL, to be sure, but often worth it when an unexpected fire-fight breaks out ahead of the team) and c) the "escorts" were too busy looking after their rambo-cred to babysit him properly. In fact, all this complaining about GLs getting picked off only serves to prove the point: people aren't using GLs enough to make them viable and interesting parts of the game, it's back to HMG, HMG, HMG. Maybe the problem lies in the GL there, but more than likely (since the GL isn't MEANT to be a great scrim weapon, but rather a portable mini-siege) it lies in the fact that there is just no point with wasting ones time with anything but a HMG.
The reality, is, spreading out the tech tree by giving the HMG some strengths AND some weaknesses doesn't necessarily make marines any weaker at all: it just adds another layer to the game. Even if it did make rines a little weaker overall, making the game less linear is far more important than any temporary cause of weakness in a race, because there are million other ways to beef up a race's overall chances without simply giving them an uber-weapon and calling it a day ("Hey, I'll just have everyone in the game start with a HMG, case closed, NS 3.0 released!")
As it is, the main problem is that HMGs completely ruin the idea of marines having complex strategies with real choice as to what weapons suit different sorts of tasks. This is totally the case in 1.04 Most of the people complaining about any change of focus to the HMG are the sorts of people who think of nothing other than getting their HMG and just forgetting about the rest of the weaponry: the sort of people who stand around in base saying "HMG???" "OMG, I need a HMG, I'll take out the hive if you give me a HMG." This is why it's so much more fun to play aliens at higher levels: you get gorges, lerks, fades, and even skulks all supporting each other's strengths and weaknesses, and it feels great. On marines, if you don't get a HMG, you just feel like a neglected loser, and you are: you're just a less powerful marine. You have nothing else to add to a sqaud. What's the point of that?
There is no need to nerf the HMG in terms of being the 100% awesome alien-pwner. But should it really dominate everything else on the marine tech tree? Shouldn't some of the other weapons at least have SOME comparative advantage to it? If the way hives go down 80% of the time is to HMG rushes, then I have to say: that blows. The other methods are really fun, if not more fun (since they are a little more RTS oriented than straight-ahead FPS oriented), and they certainly shouldn't be an occasional occurance.
Sure, but there's a difference between playing NS for the first time and playing HMG-arena for the first time. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Maybe I'm just a GL/shotty fan: I just want to see other weapons get their due.
Sure, but there's a difference between playing NS for the first time and playing HMG-arena for the first time. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Maybe I'm just a GL/shotty fan: I just want to see other weapons get their due. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
I don't picticularly like the vet's reasoning of keeping the HMG:
Vet: "Sure, it's imbalanced, and it competely kills all other weapon usage for the most part, but it helps to keep overall balance, so therefore keep it."
This is wrong. Nerf the HMG to it's role, and boost other weapons to their role. What is the problem with that? Overall balance should be achieved, but not at the sake of watering down the game.
You don't make it so marines get to choose between 5 different weapons but only 1 of them is really viable.