<!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Jul 21 2003, 06:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Jul 21 2003, 06:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This thread confuses me. You people do know that FF is already implemented into NS in tournament mode? So why the debate? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I'm just posting on why Dread's idea is good.
Simply put: No. ... It doesn't fit into the FriendlyFire systems that are in the backstory of NS. I do not see it fit for me to quote it, only explain it in a sentence. ... All bullets are Nanites, and are programmed to disintgrate on impact harmlessly if it comes in contact with a fellow marine. Thus, FF is off. Read the manual, pleash. Unless Flarya wishes to do something about it and change the story. ... Tourny mode is also good. No need to make it a public default to have FF on. Besides, that would just give Llamas a new way to do some more llamaing. ... Marines taking cover in their own artillery/grenade splash = Use long range attacks such as acidrocket/bilebomb/spikes/acidspit/etc. Grenade Launchers and Sieges mean its mid game, and if you have no 2nd hive, joo = screwed unless the marines suck hard.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Tourny mode is also good. No need to make it a public default to have FF on. Besides, that would just give Llamas a new way to do some more llamaing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. In any ordinary pub that will almost always happen. Even in CS, can't go around in a FF enabled game without some llama coming in every 15 minutes or so.
EDIT: And in a game like NS, you can't afford to have a llama come in and shoot & kill the advanced armory or proto lab. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
no it gives the wrong enviornment in it, seriously whenever i join a server that has FF on all the marines do is tst new weaps to kill eachother with, its almsot like a "Fun time" to get ur mind off a serious play
<!--QuoteBegin--ZERG!!+Jul 21 2003, 09:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Jul 21 2003, 09:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Tourny mode is also good. No need to make it a public default to have FF on. Besides, that would just give Llamas a new way to do some more llamaing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. In any ordinary pub that will almost always happen. Even in CS, can't go around in a FF enabled game without some llama coming in every 15 minutes or so.
EDIT: And in a game like NS, you can't afford to have a llama come in and shoot & kill the advanced armory or proto lab. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> When Dread's FF is on, structures would still be invincible to other players. Only players can be hurt from FF.
<!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Jul 21 2003, 11:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Jul 21 2003, 11:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All FF does is add frustration. Who wants frustration? No one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It prevents spam and marine's must learn how to shoot. How is this bad?
I still like the idea of having the server have the option of having ff or not. Perhaps to combat the problem with ff servers not being titled such, make it automatically put ff at the beginning of the server's name when it is on. I'm in favor of the OPTION of ff since I know there are people out there you like it. As long as FF isn't mandatory, it shouldn't be a bad thing. Servers that want it can have it and everyone else who hates FF can avoid the servers. Thus all are happy.
Um, wow. I read this, and I couldn't find anything to nit-pick. Nothing. Nothing at all.
FF on pub servers is what I've been dreaming of since this first started. And this system makes in possible, complete with an anti-pk system. Toss this on every gun in NS, and people will actually learn how to cover each other, rather than the current "walk in a straight line, bunny-hop and spray when a skulk comes."
<!--QuoteBegin--Kaniran+Jul 22 2003, 01:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kaniran @ Jul 22 2003, 01:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Um, wow. I read this, and I couldn't find anything to nit-pick. Nothing. Nothing at all.
FF on pub servers is what I've been dreaming of since this first started. And this system makes in possible, complete with an anti-pk system. Toss this on every gun in NS, and people will actually learn how to cover each other, rather than the current "walk in a straight line, bunny-hop and spray when a skulk comes."
This is beautiful. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you dear lord, you are the second one in this thread to actually respond to Dread's idea...?
And only 3 pages down the thread? Wow, we are truely blessed. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <sigh...>
The only good FF is the kind that only damages yourself. I've seen this in a lot of good FF CS servers. Llamas always start the round off by headshotting a teammate quickly and this plug-in makes the damage reflect 100% on you and 0% on your teammate. So funny to see llamas HS themselves.
<!--QuoteBegin--ZERG!!+Jul 22 2003, 01:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Jul 22 2003, 01:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The only good FF is the kind that only damages yourself. I've seen this in a lot of good FF CS servers. Llamas always start the round off by headshotting a teammate quickly and this plug-in makes the damage reflect 100% on you and 0% on your teammate. So funny to see llamas HS themselves. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So what do you think of dread's idea?
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited July 2003
I WOULD like to play with friendly fire on sometimes. I don't think you should be able to hurt your own buildings just teammates. A friendly fire server would have to be heavily admined and could not allow very new players. Seems like a hassle, but it would add a new option for gameplay
In short, I like Dread's idea as a pub version of friendlyfire becuase I would like to see ff in SOME pub games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So what do you think of dread's idea? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with his idea is that it prevents teamkilling, but doesn't do anything about llamas that chip away life so that you end up being fodder for the enemy. With his system, a llama can still chip 1 teammate to half his health. And since he can respawn for free, he would just come back and continue to chip away HP.
EDIT: When its 0% to your teammate, the only person you're hurting is yourself and gives a bigger reason to not play sloppily since your will directly effecting yourself.
<!--QuoteBegin--ZERG!!+Jul 21 2003, 11:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Jul 21 2003, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem with his idea is that it prevents teamkilling, but doesn't do anything about llamas that chip away life so that you end up being fodder for the enemy. With his system, a llama can still chip 1 teammate to half his health. And since he can respawn for free, he would just come back and continue to chip away HP. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright, I just bugged my roommate about this thread, and I shall post his idea, since I have none of my own to add.
Paraphrased and badly edited from the mouth of ****** (name removed):
"I hate this idea. If FF is going to be placed onto public servers in this fashion, there should be a maximum amount of damage that needs to be dealt before this 2x returned damage is activated. It is a nice counter to PKers, but I'd hate to frag myself because I let off a few rounds into the guy blocking the hallway."
I guess he makes a good point, sorta. He doesn't like the 2x damage to affect people who aren't llamas. I think its still a great idea though, and I disagree totally with what he has said. I just thought this might make some nice discussion.
Edit: Removed name. He's a forum member, and won't make this post himself, so I guess he can remain anonymous.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 21 2003, 03:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 21 2003, 03:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Marine's who want to be a$$'s can just run into his teammate's fire, thus screwing them over. While this is obviously easy to counter(just stop firing), it is just a possible situation I'd thought you should know about. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Unfortunately, you can't prevent your grenades from exploding.
Perhaps the comm could have an option to make a certain marine receive more feedback damage when he shoots a teammate, if there would ever be a lamer. Like... 100%, then he can't shoot anyone anymore. If a lamer comm takes control, they can always kick him.
No. In a word, no. The comm shouldn't have direct control over marines. The comm thinks this guy didnt follow orders, he waits for him to find an alien and boom, no shooting?
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Jul 21 2003, 03:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Jul 21 2003, 03:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--wizard@psu+Jul 21 2003, 12:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Jul 21 2003, 12:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not necessarily. I have played on many public servers with tournament mode on and never had a real problem with it. If it is a solid server with an admin on it you will be fine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then you get a guy with the tag [champions] joining and we shall see how much fun that server is with out being able to survive a teammate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> True, there are lamers such as the 'champions' but even if FF is off they would find some way to raise hell. That is also why I suggested that FF only be used on well managed (adminned) servers.
<!--QuoteBegin--MrMojo+Jul 22 2003, 07:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Jul 22 2003, 07:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No. In a word, no. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No no no no no no no no no no no no no. I was referring to Friendly Fire.
Looking back I realize I didn't address Dread's idea, so I will remedy that now.
While I appreciate the idea and how it does seem to handle pk'ing issues, I think it simultaneously would be nearly unplayable for marines. Let's say for the sake of argument you have no llamas what-so-ever on marines. Now, you're using good teamwork and a squard of ha/hmg head for the hive. On the way, they get waylaid by skulks and a fade. In the chaos of trying to shoot the aliens in a tight corridor, how many innocent ff shots do you think will occur? I myself on the current games hit my teammates in those situations all the time when trying to track and shoot the elusive skulks, so I could see this not working there. But, the counter-argument could be made that this would force people to take more care when aiming.
I like the idea in principle, but I think 200% reflected damage is too high. Yes, this would work for llamas pk'ers, but would be terrible for honest mistakes. I do think with some tweaking, this idea could work. The idea of having to do so much damage before reflected damage kicks in sounds like a nice fix to me.
Sooner or later, they'll figure out a way to get around your technical measures. Heck, even with the modified system, the true griefer doesn't really care if he gets killed.
Great suggestion, Dread. I also like Forlorn's suggestion to apply a small percentage of the damage to marines and then double that damage for the shooter. However, there's still two big issues:
1) If not enough damage is reflected back at the shooter, you'll have llamas that just do damage to weaken his teammates... not enough to kill his teammate or himself... enough to just annoy. Then he'll probably turn around and spam medpack requests to the comm.
2) If too much damage is reflected back at the shooter, you'll punish those accidental instances where you unload an entire clip in the back of your teammate during the heat of battle.
My suggestion is this... why not make the system graduated? The numbers aren't really important, but I'll just use the example of an level 0 LMG and our marine buddies, Goofus and Gallant.
Goofus decides to shoot Gallant with one LMG round (10 damage). Gallant takes 10% of the damage (1 hp), while Goofus takes 20% of the damage (2). Not factoring in armor, after 50 rounds Goofus would be dead and Gallant would be annoyed.
Instead, after inflicting a certain threshold of damage (say 5hp), Goofus' reflected damage doubles to 40%. Now he puts another 5 rounds into Gallant and suffers a 20hp in damage. Then the reflected damage changes to 80%. Now he's suffering a whopping 40hp damage after 5 LMG rounds. Then 160%... so on. Eventually Goofus is dying really quickly after hurting his teammates, and Gallant can laugh mercilessly at him (and kindly request a medpack from the comm).
Now let's say that Goofus decides to behave himself (unlikely, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt). Then after a period of time (maybe 30 seconds or something), the reflected damage is cut in half. He's not entirely off the hook yet and can go right back to large amounts of reflected damage if necessary, but he's also given the opportunity to redeem himself.
Let's say Gallant and Goofus are trying to take a hive, and Goofus jumps in front of Gallant during the battle. Gallant accidentally places some shots into Goofus. He realizes his error, apologizes (of course), and makes an effort to avoid shooting Goofus in the back, thus allowing his damage threshold to reduce back to it's normal setting (20%).
friendly fire is not a very bright idea....In a map situation, where all there are corridors and long hallways, there would be massive damage everywhere...The aliens I suspect would have it worse, because they have so many units that do splash damage. The marines would also suffer a lot, because stupid nubs will shoot grenades everywhere damaging their own teammates and hell it would be chaos if you just think about it.
If they did allow this, it would have to be optional on each server....
LoTech, you have a good idea. Let me appy it to Dread's/my own.
Make it so for shooting a teammate with any weapon(You can't shoot buildings by the by), you deal 5% of the weapons damage to him, and %5 of the weapons damage to yourself.
However, deal enough damage to someone(how about 150 hp), then it increases 10% damage back to yourself. Deal 150 hp again, then the reflected damage goes up to 20%! This process continues up to 50% points of damage reflected. Every 5 min, your reflected % of damage is lowered by 10% untill at 5% again.
Not so much a hole in the system, but it's an issue we can't really deal with easily. What about people who don't actively deal damage to teammates, but intentionally throw themselves in the way of someone else's line of fire?
Even though they take damage, the reduced damage to them is not going to be much of a hindrance. If it's not one thing, it's another, I guess. There's no accounting for intention... once again, it goes back to having good admins and a good playerbase.
Sorry for not posting sooner, I haven't been able to come here untill now.
1) I'm rather sad that so many actually ignored the starting post. Thanks for those who read it.
2) So we are getting some discussion here:
Civilian: I thought about the possibility of lamers running in to grenade fire on purpose. The positive aspect would be that they would get hurt themselves too and hence it would happen less. Anyway, I did say that the system is not llama-proof...yet <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Forlorn/LoTech: Seems like a great way to implement the idea but maybe too complex? I had the impression that devs are trying to make NS easy to understand without difficult numbers and formulas to remember.
So let's think of something else...
- FF for mines: whatever devs decide, doesn't have an impact on this idea - No FF for Knife/Welder(duh) - No FF for Kharaa(doesn't sound very realistic that aliens would hit accidentically each other with their animal reflexes etc. Also harder to implement due to several melee weapons) - Siege deals 25damage to marines?
<b>- Bullet weapons(Pistol, LMG, Shotty, HMG): every 4th(stc) bullet you hit friendly deals damage to you. Effect: You can take short bursts at friendlies(in case there is a skulk in their face) with no penalty but spraying like hell will damage yourself. Llama-proof.
- 'Artillery' weapons(GL): every 3rd grenade that hits friendly deals damage to you and him. Effect: marines can still run past grenade storms but can't stay and put up a camp in them. Partially llama-proof because a llamer can still run to your grenades but at least now you have bigger chance to stop firing.
- FF can not kill. It can reduce hp to 1 but not kill.</b>
These three last might solve something because they end grenade camping and crazy spraying. Just an idea so tweak it because it still seems to lack something, I just don't know what.
Now this is changing in to suggestion which I never meant. Well maybe some friendly mod will boot this to correct forum <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So what do you think of dread's idea? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with his idea is that it prevents teamkilling, but doesn't do anything about llamas that chip away life so that you end up being fodder for the enemy. With his system, a llama can still chip 1 teammate to half his health. And since he can respawn for free, he would just come back and continue to chip away HP.
EDIT: When its 0% to your teammate, the only person you're hurting is yourself and gives a bigger reason to not play sloppily since your will directly effecting yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My only problem with the 0% rule is it's easily abused by lamers walking into your line of fire...
If you are down in front and stand up, you should take some damage....
There's 2 sides to this, griefers who will allow themselves to be shot, and griefers who will shoot.. Both are bad, and both would exist....
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> i dont think there is any simple solution to the problem of the FF. I believe that if it works now y should u change it?
Comments
Well, I'm just posting on why Dread's idea is good.
...
It doesn't fit into the FriendlyFire systems that are in the backstory of NS. I do not see it fit for me to quote it, only explain it in a sentence.
...
All bullets are Nanites, and are programmed to disintgrate on impact harmlessly if it comes in contact with a fellow marine. Thus, FF is off. Read the manual, pleash. Unless Flarya wishes to do something about it and change the story.
...
Tourny mode is also good. No need to make it a public default to have FF on. Besides, that would just give Llamas a new way to do some more llamaing.
...
Marines taking cover in their own artillery/grenade splash = Use long range attacks such as acidrocket/bilebomb/spikes/acidspit/etc. Grenade Launchers and Sieges mean its mid game, and if you have no 2nd hive, joo = screwed unless the marines suck hard.
Exactly. In any ordinary pub that will almost always happen. Even in CS, can't go around in a FF enabled game without some llama coming in every 15 minutes or so.
EDIT: And in a game like NS, you can't afford to have a llama come in and shoot & kill the advanced armory or proto lab. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Exactly. In any ordinary pub that will almost always happen. Even in CS, can't go around in a FF enabled game without some llama coming in every 15 minutes or so.
EDIT: And in a game like NS, you can't afford to have a llama come in and shoot & kill the advanced armory or proto lab. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
When Dread's FF is on, structures would still be invincible to other players. Only players can be hurt from FF.
It prevents spam and marine's must learn how to shoot. How is this bad?
FF on pub servers is what I've been dreaming of since this first started. And this system makes in possible, complete with an anti-pk system. Toss this on every gun in NS, and people will actually learn how to cover each other, rather than the current "walk in a straight line, bunny-hop and spray when a skulk comes."
This is beautiful.
FF on pub servers is what I've been dreaming of since this first started. And this system makes in possible, complete with an anti-pk system. Toss this on every gun in NS, and people will actually learn how to cover each other, rather than the current "walk in a straight line, bunny-hop and spray when a skulk comes."
This is beautiful. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you dear lord, you are the second one in this thread to actually respond to Dread's idea...?
And only 3 pages down the thread? Wow, we are truely blessed. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <sigh...>
So what do you think of dread's idea?
In short, I like Dread's idea as a pub version of friendlyfire becuase I would like to see ff in SOME pub games.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with his idea is that it prevents teamkilling, but doesn't do anything about llamas that chip away life so that you end up being fodder for the enemy. With his system, a llama can still chip 1 teammate to half his health. And since he can respawn for free, he would just come back and continue to chip away HP.
EDIT: When its 0% to your teammate, the only person you're hurting is yourself and gives a bigger reason to not play sloppily since your will directly effecting yourself.
Alright, I just bugged my roommate about this thread, and I shall post his idea, since I have none of my own to add.
Paraphrased and badly edited from the mouth of ****** (name removed):
"I hate this idea. If FF is going to be placed onto public servers in this fashion, there should be a maximum amount of damage that needs to be dealt before this 2x returned damage is activated. It is a nice counter to PKers, but I'd hate to frag myself because I let off a few rounds into the guy blocking the hallway."
I guess he makes a good point, sorta. He doesn't like the 2x damage to affect people who aren't llamas. I think its still a great idea though, and I disagree totally with what he has said. I just thought this might make some nice discussion.
Edit: Removed name. He's a forum member, and won't make this post himself, so I guess he can remain anonymous.
Unfortunately, you can't prevent your grenades from exploding.
Not necessarily. I have played on many public servers with tournament mode on and never had a real problem with it. If it is a solid server with an admin on it you will be fine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you get a guy with the tag [champions] joining and we shall see how much fun that server is with out being able to survive a teammate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, there are lamers such as the 'champions' but even if FF is off
they would find some way to raise hell. That is also why I suggested
that FF only be used on well managed (adminned) servers.
No no no no no no no no no no no no no.
I was referring to Friendly Fire.
While I appreciate the idea and how it does seem to handle pk'ing issues, I think it simultaneously would be nearly unplayable for marines. Let's say for the sake of argument you have no llamas what-so-ever on marines. Now, you're using good teamwork and a squard of ha/hmg head for the hive. On the way, they get waylaid by skulks and a fade. In the chaos of trying to shoot the aliens in a tight corridor, how many innocent ff shots do you think will occur? I myself on the current games hit my teammates in those situations all the time when trying to track and shoot the elusive skulks, so I could see this not working there. But, the counter-argument could be made that this would force people to take more care when aiming.
I like the idea in principle, but I think 200% reflected damage is too high. Yes, this would work for llamas pk'ers, but would be terrible for honest mistakes. I do think with some tweaking, this idea could work. The idea of having to do so much damage before reflected damage kicks in sounds like a nice fix to me.
FF does 5% damage to the marines being shot at, and 10% to the marine who committed the FF crime. This makes it less punitive.
Civilian pointed out that marines could intentionally run into other marine's nades... any solutions to this idea?
Sooner or later, they'll figure out a way to get around your technical measures.
Heck, even with the modified system, the true griefer doesn't really care if he gets killed.
So the best answer is always back to good admins.
1) If not enough damage is reflected back at the shooter, you'll have llamas that just do damage to weaken his teammates... not enough to kill his teammate or himself... enough to just annoy. Then he'll probably turn around and spam medpack requests to the comm.
2) If too much damage is reflected back at the shooter, you'll punish those accidental instances where you unload an entire clip in the back of your teammate during the heat of battle.
My suggestion is this... why not make the system graduated? The numbers aren't really important, but I'll just use the example of an level 0 LMG and our marine buddies, Goofus and Gallant.
Goofus decides to shoot Gallant with one LMG round (10 damage).
Gallant takes 10% of the damage (1 hp), while Goofus takes 20% of the damage (2).
Not factoring in armor, after 50 rounds Goofus would be dead and Gallant would be annoyed.
Instead, after inflicting a certain threshold of damage (say 5hp), Goofus' reflected damage doubles to 40%. Now he puts another 5 rounds into Gallant and suffers a 20hp in damage. Then the reflected damage changes to 80%. Now he's suffering a whopping 40hp damage after 5 LMG rounds. Then 160%... so on. Eventually Goofus is dying really quickly after hurting his teammates, and Gallant can laugh mercilessly at him (and kindly request a medpack from the comm).
Now let's say that Goofus decides to behave himself (unlikely, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt). Then after a period of time (maybe 30 seconds or something), the reflected damage is cut in half. He's not entirely off the hook yet and can go right back to large amounts of reflected damage if necessary, but he's also given the opportunity to redeem himself.
Let's say Gallant and Goofus are trying to take a hive, and Goofus jumps in front of Gallant during the battle. Gallant accidentally places some shots into Goofus. He realizes his error, apologizes (of course), and makes an effort to avoid shooting Goofus in the back, thus allowing his damage threshold to reduce back to it's normal setting (20%).
If they did allow this, it would have to be optional on each server....
But your guy's ideas sound reasonable..
Make it so for shooting a teammate with any weapon(You can't shoot buildings by the by), you deal 5% of the weapons damage to him, and %5 of the weapons damage to yourself.
However, deal enough damage to someone(how about 150 hp), then it increases 10% damage back to yourself. Deal 150 hp again, then the reflected damage goes up to 20%! This process continues up to 50% points of damage reflected. Every 5 min, your reflected % of damage is lowered by 10% untill at 5% again.
Can anyone see any holes in my system?
Even though they take damage, the reduced damage to them is not going to be much of a hindrance. If it's not one thing, it's another, I guess. There's no accounting for intention... once again, it goes back to having good admins and a good playerbase.
1) I'm rather sad that so many actually ignored the starting post. Thanks for those who read it.
2) So we are getting some discussion here:
Civilian: I thought about the possibility of lamers running in to grenade fire on purpose. The positive aspect would be that they would get hurt themselves too and hence it would happen less. Anyway, I did say that the system is not llama-proof...yet <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Forlorn/LoTech: Seems like a great way to implement the idea but maybe too complex? I had the impression that devs are trying to make NS easy to understand without difficult numbers and formulas to remember.
So let's think of something else...
- FF for mines: whatever devs decide, doesn't have an impact on this idea
- No FF for Knife/Welder(duh)
- No FF for Kharaa(doesn't sound very realistic that aliens would hit accidentically each other with their animal reflexes etc. Also harder to implement due to several melee weapons)
- Siege deals 25damage to marines?
<b>- Bullet weapons(Pistol, LMG, Shotty, HMG): every 4th(stc) bullet you hit friendly deals damage to you.
Effect: You can take short bursts at friendlies(in case there is a skulk in their face) with no penalty but spraying like hell will damage yourself. Llama-proof.
- 'Artillery' weapons(GL): every 3rd grenade that hits friendly deals damage to you and him.
Effect: marines can still run past grenade storms but can't stay and put up a camp in them. Partially llama-proof because a llamer can still run to your grenades but at least now you have bigger chance to stop firing.
- FF can not kill. It can reduce hp to 1 but not kill.</b>
These three last might solve something because they end grenade camping and crazy spraying. Just an idea so tweak it because it still seems to lack something, I just don't know what.
Now this is changing in to suggestion which I never meant. Well maybe some friendly mod will boot this to correct forum <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
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The problem with his idea is that it prevents teamkilling, but doesn't do anything about llamas that chip away life so that you end up being fodder for the enemy. With his system, a llama can still chip 1 teammate to half his health. And since he can respawn for free, he would just come back and continue to chip away HP.
EDIT: When its 0% to your teammate, the only person you're hurting is yourself and gives a bigger reason to not play sloppily since your will directly effecting yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My only problem with the 0% rule is it's easily abused by lamers walking into your line of fire...
If you are down in front and stand up, you should take some damage....
There's 2 sides to this, griefers who will allow themselves to be shot, and griefers who will shoot..
Both are bad, and both would exist....