Skulks Vrs End Game?

SnoopBob · July 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Is it worth it?</div> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'>
I passed introducing myself on the new player forum because i have been reading the forums for a while and played ns since when it was just a gestating egg...

Anyway, i have read many posts concerning the debate of the versatility of the skulk in a mid/end game scenario and have thus pondered about it many a time...
The skulk in respect is my most favourable "class" because of the abiltiy it possesses to be stealthy and deadly, a cloak and dagger if you will. Its abilty to attack with speed and surprise to make even the most experianced marine question his faith is unmatched, but...
When heavy armour or jetpacks enter the game, the skulk loses its tactical advantage as a swift "precision" weapon unable stand up to the protection/manunverbiltity that the later game offers marines. not to mention the motion tracking taking the abiltiy to go unnoticed preparing to strike is rendered almost useless...
I do however relise the usefulness of the xenocide but only as an endgame tactic where victory is sealed.
No i'm not saying the skulk should be able to single handedly take down HA's like an onos on steriods i am just mentioning a issue that from my POV needs to be addressed.

I have read the changelogs for 2.0x looking for some hint of this being addressed and as far as my slightly obscured vision shows there are not many changes that address this.
Correct me if what i have said is wrong etc

<b>My possible solution...</b>
As the game progress the aliens inevitably gain multiple hives and with it the bonusses that come with it... the skulk could be slightly boosted with each new have giving it increased damage or maybe more health...

Thanks for ya time!
SnoopBob
ps Be nice <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'>

a_civilian · July 2003

I think that increasing the effectiveness of alien upgrades would solve this problem, as well as solving the problem of upgrade chambers being too unviable when compared with a second hive.

th0r0n · July 2003

Yeah I agree, I'm not a big fan of anything other than skulk/lerk, and they are made pretty redundant at the endgame.

I don't know if it's just me, but I hate Fades/Onos, its just no fun.

Zek · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As the game progress the aliens inevitably gain multiple hives and with it the bonusses that come with it... the skulk could be slightly boosted with each new have</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Yeah, it's called Leap and Xenocide. Both are very useful with what you're usually up against when you get them; leap is exceedingly useful against non-HA marines for closing the distance and biting before hitting the ground, and Xeno works wonders against HA trains if it's coordinated. Skulks are still the 1st tier class no matter how you look at it, and getting level 3 weapons and armor for a stock marine is much more expensive than upgrading your skulk. It's only fair that they have the upper hand late game...

Iced_Eagle · July 2003

and btw its been suggested before by vets/pts that skulks health be tied to number of hives and it didn't work.... but that is why you get extra abilities <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Mastodon · July 2003

I think that skulks are perfectly viable, it just depends on what traits you choose and how mad your skr1||z are. I've seen JP/HMG 'Rines taken down by a wild, leaping skulk. It's not as if they're totally useless.

Mythr1l · July 2003

with the new jetpacks, skulks should be able to kill them easyer, and especially if they have leap they can take them out. as for HA, well it would be a bit unfair for your run of the mill skulk to be able to kill a 60 res HA marine :/

matso · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jul 22 2003, 02:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As the game progress the aliens inevitably gain multiple hives and with it the bonusses that come with it... the skulk could be slightly boosted with each new have</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Yeah, it's called Leap and Xenocide. Both are very useful with what you're usually up against when you get them; leap is exceedingly useful against non-HA marines for closing the distance and biting before hitting the ground, and Xeno works wonders against HA trains if it's coordinated.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Leap is good ... however, when you get xenocide/primal scream/charge/web, the game is over. A pity, really, but map constraints means that if the aliens hold three hives, they can't avoid holding a fair amount of resources as well. Thus, you will seldom see any game-deciding battles at hive 3.

Skulk/marine power balance seesaws quite a bit:

Phase 1, vanilla skulks vs vanilla marines: marine advantage.
Phase 2, upgraded skulks vs vanilla marines: skulk advantage.
Phase 3, upgraded LA/LMG marines vs upgraded hive 1 skulks: marine advantage
Phase 4, hive 2 skulks vs upgraded LA/LMG marines: parity
Phase 5, upgraded marines with HA/HMG/JP/GL etc: skulks are dead meat.
Phase 6, hive 3 aliens. Cleanup time.

All phases except for #5 averages a few minutes each.

Phase 5 is where the game usually stalemates, and can last for hours. At this point, few if any skulks can do much. In addition, as they are no longer getting any kills, and there is no overflow from those fades/onoses actually getting kills, they may well have to STAY skulk for quite a long time.

Sooty · July 2003

Mebbe... a 'level 2/3 hive skulk'?

Gargamel · July 2003

I would say, when Marines have HA, you should have Fades... or try sacrificing 3 skulks to kill one HA... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>
1 skulky could hold the left arm, one the right and the 3rd chomp his head off <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>
(watch out though, he could still have the strength to knock you on the ground and stomp you with his large feet <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

SnoopBob · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Yeah, it's called Leap and Xenocide. Both are very useful with what you're usually up against when you get them; leap is exceedingly useful against non-HA marines for closing the distance and biting before hitting the ground, and Xeno works wonders against HA trains if it's coordinated.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

but there is the problem of xenociding a ha train with your fully upgraded armed to the teeth skulk then on respawn having to upgrade again so you at least stand a chance of runing when you turn the corner to find a ha with a hmg looking at you. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'>
But look at it in a 2 hive scenario no xenocide...
leap i find is only useful on covering distance especial against stock marines but once you hit the wall that is HA again ure royally screwed...
jetpacks are another story a skilled "elite" (lol) skulk can mince a jper, give the jper a hmg and you better hope he is blind in one eye....

lolfighter · July 2003

Well, as a skulk does not cost you any resources (except the optional upgrades), it is best compared to a vanilla marine. Even an upgraded skulk however does not stand a chance against a L3/L3 vanilla marine. At level three, the lmg dishes out far too much damage for even xenocide to be worth its money. I do not see much of an issue here though, as the aliens do not have to rely on the attention of another player to be able to access higher-level evolutions. A comm that is busy (or forsakes you in favor of more skilled players) means that you don't get any equipemt, so you're basically stuck with your lmg. A skulk however can just use his resources to upgrade to a higher lifeform. In other words, in a late game we see far more vanilla marines than skulks, so to preserve balance, the late-game vanilla marine must have some use still. Since vanilla marines are the only ones that skulks can tackle with good rates of succes, it follows that skulks are pretty useless in the late game.
If you absolutely have to skulk in the late game (due to personal taste or lack of resources), you'll have to work together with other lifeforms. A fade or onos is a much more inviting target than a skulk, so if you attack from a different direction, chances are that you can get in and do quite some damage. After all, a skulk can deal quite a lot of damage if you let him, his weakness is the hitpoints (not like the late-game vanilla marines, which are relatively tough but have trouble doing enough damage to the higher lifeforms).

Turkey2 · July 2003

I actually have done quite a bit of skulking to endgame lately because leap is so powerful. Short of web and onos, leap is your most powerful weapon against heavies. And of course when used in conjunction with web it ridiculously easy to kill things. HA/HMG are quite slow so they are perfect targets for leap. That and skulks are best for jumping in to the base and taking down buildings quickly. That and of course most heavies are hilarious when they have a leaper on them, they start hopping trying to get away and you just know they are screaming at their computers, "WTH why m I dying?!?!?!?!!??!"

hehe good times

DarkFrost · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (matso42 @ Jul 22 2003, 11:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Skulk/marine power balance seesaws quite a bit:

Phase 1, vanilla skulks vs vanilla marines: marine advantage.
Phase 2, upgraded skulks vs vanilla marines: skulk advantage.
Phase 3, upgraded LA/LMG marines vs upgraded hive 1 skulks: marine advantage
Phase 4, hive 2 skulks vs upgraded LA/LMG marines: parity
Phase 5, upgraded marines with HA/HMG/JP/GL etc: skulks are dead meat.
Phase 6, hive 3 aliens. Cleanup time.

All phases except for #5 averages a few minutes each.

 </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I agree with all but phase 2, that one is highly ping dependant aswell as other things (numbers of marines-aliens), fully upgraded skulks can only take 3-4 more bullets to die, to be fair id say its even, but in my eyes its still marines who have the advantage.

Zunni · July 2003

I've never had a problem with Skulks as they stand now for end game...

Let the lerks, fades deal with the marines head on, you sneak quickly behind and chomp their base....

Generally Fades have taken care of the mines so you can chomp the hell out of the IP's long before any one even knows you are there, and that's where the skulks are potent for end game, they are small, they easily slip by GL fire and can cause havoc with a base since people aren't expecting them there..

Ahnteis · July 2003

Leap is a mini version of charge. A bit harder to use, but you can honestly take down HA with a leap or two if you know what you're doing (or are lucky).

Wodin · July 2003

In addition to everything already mentioned, late game skulks are useful scouts. Tagging marines with parasites and munching unguarded res towers are perfectly skulkish tasks.

MonKeyTurD · July 2003

skulks are always useful, you just have to be careful with them at particular points of the game
for example at the start, when upgrades are low you gotta be careful, then when you just get 3rd lvl upgrades you can be a bit more aggressive, then when you see jps/hmg/ha, you gotta be smarter, i think thats a point alot of people are missing when they say "i cant rambo into 3 HA/hmgs with a skulk and win, thus they are useless end game"
skulks do 70damage(unless they changed it) which is still a hell of a lot, and when everyone is focusing on onos/fade/lerk the skulk is about the last target but can be the deadliest if used correctly

Skulks Vrs End Game?

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