Alien Hitboxes In Ns

Dread · July 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">and hitboxes in half-life engine</div> How HL hitboxes work? I remember that in singleplayer all theAI monsters had hitboxes excactly the right shape and size. That's why I'm wondering if mod makers can actually customize and make hitboxes themselves, or are they forced to use normal human/crouching human hitbox? Is it somehow different in multiplayer and singleplayer? Does it have something to do with player turning and moving with tweaked hitboxes?

I guess if it were easy to do, Skulks and Oni would have right shaped hitboxes but I really want to know how things work. If devs can't make hitboxes themselves, is it possible to combine two hitboxes that share the same health and move together with the model/player(for Onos)?

Just yearning for information and some discussion on the subject <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Frogg2 · July 2003

ns marine hitboxes

<img src='http://www.froggeh.com/images/marinebox.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

and the rest...

<img src='http://www.froggeh.com/images/habox.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.froggeh.com/images/skulkbox.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.froggeh.com/images/gorgebox.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.froggeh.com/images/lerkbox.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.froggeh.com/images/fadebox.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.froggeh.com/images/onosbox.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

Not to mention all the diff structures have hitboxes too...

Dread · July 2003

So devs actually built hitboxes for marines themselves or not? What keeps them from doing the same thing for Kharaa? Movement issues?

Brad_R · July 2003

yes they make their own hitboxes. Notice how the marine back is huge? Thats for when he has a jetpack, which is rather NS specific <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Dread · July 2003

Now I don't understand, when I shoot at skulks butt, it doesn't take damage. Wth?

Am I crazy or what?

TeoH · July 2003

And if you've played the game you'll notice the boxes indicated above have nothing to do with where the hits register.

*Looks at onos*

heh

Dread · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Jul 23 2003, 07:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> And if you've played the game you'll notice the boxes indicated above have nothing to do with where the hits register.

*Looks at onos*

heh </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Im a nub. If hitboxes don't have anything to do with the hits registered, what are they used for? And what are those boxes where hits register called then? Hit-register-boxes? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Anyway, I wanted to talk about the <b>sizes and shapes where the damage is received</b>, and how they work in HL/NS.

Those hitboxes Frogg posted look like <b>ideal</b> hitboxes. I don't think NS has that accurate damage models. If I'm not completely mistaken hitboxes(where the damage is calculated) are shaped of small box(crouch) and big box(size of two crouch boxes; standing) and a big box lifted a bit in the air(Onos).

Frogg2 · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Jul 23 2003, 12:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I don't think NS has that accurate damage models. If I'm not completely mistaken hitboxes(where the damage is calculated) are shaped of small box(crouch) and big box(size of two crouch boxes; standing) and a big box lifted a bit in the air(Onos).  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Some hitboxes are bugged yes :\

What you are talking about above is player hull, which is used for collision detection.

TeoH · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frogg2 @ Jul 23 2003, 12:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> What you are talking about above is player hull, which is used for collision detection.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Yea and unfortunately it also appears to be used for calculating hits landed against the player (Sorry if that's what you meant).

For example, here's that Onos picture again, except i've marked the 'hittable' area in green:

<img src='http://www.oclube.com/usuarios/teoh/onosbox.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

If that's not very clear, basically you can only land shots on a narrow pillar in the center of the onos that is positioned roughly over the torso, and extends down to the ground. Stand side-on to the onos and shoot it in the head and you will hit nothing but air. The hit registration for all the models seems to be done against these hulls, for example, skulks can be hit by shots aimed around a foot above their rear end, while shooting them in the eye socket from side on will do nothing.

Dread · July 2003

Teoh: That's what I'm talking about. Also it seems that the green narrow pillar is the only thing that can not travel through walls/buildings/players. Onos model and those "player hulls" still merge with obstacles, where as the green pillar is the only thing that can be shot at and that actually collides with obstacles. Am I right?

So what I'm wondering here is: can devs/modders in general make their own hitboxes excactly shaped of their creatures?

meatball · July 2003

...and i thougt that I couldn't aim b/c sometimes i cant hit a onos from point blank

TeoH · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Jul 23 2003, 01:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Teoh: That's what I'm talking about. Also it seems that the green narrow pillar is the only thing that can not travel through walls/buildings/players. Onos model and those "collision hulls" still merge with obstacles, where as the green pillar is the only thing that can be shot at and that actually collides with obstacles. Am I right?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Yep that's correct.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
So what I'm wondering here is: can devs/modders in general make their own hitboxes excactly shaped of their creatures?
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

While the hull obviously can't be the shape of a creature, i'm unsure if the hit registration could be unlinked from the hull in this way. I'm not exactly a coder here, i only have the player's perspective on the issue. If it was possible, it would bring up some interesting anomlies, such as being able to shoot player models that were clipping through walls :)

Frogg2 · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Jul 23 2003, 01:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Jul 23 2003, 01:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Teoh: That's what I'm talking about. Also it seems that the green narrow pillar is the only thing that can not travel through walls/buildings/players. Onos model and those "collision hulls" still merge with obstacles, where as the green pillar is the only thing that can be shot at and that actually collides with obstacles. Am I right? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yep that's correct.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
So what I'm wondering here is: can devs/modders in general make their own hitboxes excactly shaped of their creatures?
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

While the hull obviously can't be the shape of a creature, i'm unsure if the hit registration could be unlinked from the hull in this way. I'm not exactly a coder here, i only have the player's perspective on the issue. If it was possible, it would bring up some interesting anomlies, such as being able to shoot player models that were clipping through walls <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Teo Have you tested that in 2.0, I know thats how it was in 1.0x but I heard that it was fixed.

TeoH · July 2003

I tested the skulk and semi-tested the onos, both appeared identical to their 1.04 counterparts and since i heard nothing about a 'fix' i was under the impression nothing has changed.

The skulk still works exactly as it did in 1.04, the front part of the body will not register hits, while hits can be landed a good distance above the back of the model. The hittable area still appears to be the hull. I'm not actually sure if this issue really is 'fixable', and if 2.0 still exhibits the same behaviour as 1.04, fixing it at this stage would be a huge balance change that i wouldnt like to have to deal with.

Just so the new players don't freak out, the onos is by far the most exaggerated example of this, most of the alien models are relatively accurate.

Dread · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Jul 23 2003, 08:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If it was possible, it would bring up some interesting anomlies, such as being able to shoot player models that were clipping through walls <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
But it would be still much better than not being able to shoot at all.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Just so the new players don't freak out, the onos is by far the most exaggerated example of this, most of the alien models are relatively accurate. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Yep, most of the people have already learned to deal with it but fixing(if possible) the issue would be just plain awesome. Btw, other hitboxes are:

Marine crouch, Fade crouch, Skulk, Gorge, Lerk, all the buildings

Marine, Fade, Onos crouch

Onos

Kwil · July 2003

Ugh. Now that's not really fair at all, but it's good to know.

Perhaps it would be a good thing to mention this in the manual: "Don't bother shooting at the side of the Onos' head.. those horns block anything." Not sure what you could say for its butt, though.

The guys at the Monkey Strike mod (http://www.monkeystrike.com/) talk about their smallest monkey: "His advantage is the high speed and the small size which make him hard to hit." If they've actually figured out how to adjust the size that can be hit, maybe they could be persuaded to share code?

Maveric · July 2003

The hitboxes for non-human models or prone-human models really should be fixed in NS and other games. i dont know how many times i've gone prone in games like DoD, tried to crawl into a hole that <b>really</b> looks like i'm able to go into when prone, only to be stopped due to the fact that when you're prone you're considered "crouched" by the engine; and only your model changes. (thus someone can head-shot you in DoD when you're safely out of sight, prone behind something; the game consider's you crouched, and your prone head hit box is actually where the crouched head hit box is.)

Also if you jumped into a garg model (dual-flame thrower creature in single player and Sven Coop) you'd go into the actual model and float in mid-air on a player-sized block; just like the onos in NS, you go into the model and get stopped by a player-sized block (again).

also the fade's crouched model gets cliped into the minimum-sized vent; basically its head gets clipped through the brush.

I guess HL just isn't made for bigger-than-human models. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'> For sure though, HL2 will have some biiig monsters; and thus better hit boxes and model physics (no more hiding inside that res node, gorgie!). <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Dread · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Jul 23 2003, 09:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The guys at the Monkey Strike mod (http://www.monkeystrike.com/) talk about their smallest monkey: "His advantage is the high speed and the small size which make him hard to hit." If they've actually figured out how to adjust the size that can be hit, maybe they could be persuaded to share code?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I'm not sure but my guess is that the mini-monkey uses the same crouch hitbox as Skulk.

Applicator · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Jul 23 2003, 02:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Perhaps it would be a good thing to mention this in the manual: "Don't bother shooting at the side of the Onos' head.. those horns block anything." Not sure what you could say for its butt, though.
 </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I'm guessing that this isn't something that the devs want to advertise....

criminal · July 2003

Hey, I suggest one of you guys go over to www.digitalpaintball.net and get into contact with one of their coders. They created a whole new system to detect collisions and hits, making it the only half-life mod where you can shoot between the person's legs and have it not be a hit.

Hitbox bugs were plaguing them too, I seriously suggest one of the devs gets together with them and asks how they did it.

Ph0enix · July 2003

IIRC HL ony supports 3 hitboxes/hullsboxes. For garden variety reality Mods this isn't a problem. You need a crouched human and a standing human. Job done.

For NS it's a problem and I guess this is the best they can do at the moment.

TeoH · July 2003

There's a deeper problem to having appropriate hull shapes in NS:

NS Aliens are elongated

Skulks, gorges, Onos are longer than they are wide. This means the space they occupy changes drastically as they turn. To model this accurately, the bounding box that collisions are calculated from would also have to rotate with the model - And you cannot have rotating bounding boxes in HL. The reason for this is quite simple when you think about it, HL allows the player to pivot instantly on the spot at any time, this can only be possible when bounding boxes do not rotate. Otherwise what happens when a long-yet-narrow skulk runs into a narrow vent, and decides to turn sideways?

Human styled models have no problem with this since the space they occupy doesn't really change as they turn, there is no problem with human characters having a static, non-rotating bounding box. For the aliens, a compromise has to be reached, and a single marine-like hull that does not rotate is stuck in the center of the model.

Kwil · July 2003

Heh! That'd be hilarious..

Two skulks facing each other down in the vent.. "I can't turn around, go back!" "I can't either.. you back up!" "I ain't backin' into that marine base" "Well I've got turrets behind me!"
Turn on friendly fire and watch'em fight like dogs. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Ph0enix · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Jul 23 2003, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Heh! That'd be hilarious..

Two skulks facing each other down in the vent.. "I can't turn around, go back!" "I can't either.. you back up!" "I ain't backin' into that marine base" "Well I've got turrets behind me!"
Turn on friendly fire and watch'em fight like dogs. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Well the one at the back would win, cos the front skulk couldn't turn around.... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Snidely · July 2003

Yeah, but the one at the back might be a bit reluctant to bite...

The fixed hitboxes/hit detection/whatever was one of the things I was looking forward to most in 2.0; it sounded as though the problem had been fixed. Oh well. ):

Elderwyrm · July 2003

In HL2 I remembering hearing the skeleton of the model is used as the hitbox, or something to that extent.

Bogglesteinsky · July 2003

yeah

the polygons of the model are the hitboxes

Mystiqq · July 2003

hmm...
i didn't know the hitbox problem was this big...
i mean if i shoot onos in the head and dont do damage. thats just isnt right <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

but if its engine problem... it really sucks :/

cheers
mystiqq

MonsieurEvil · July 2003

It's not - it's a lot of people making a big deal out of something that is not big. Not one single person here has the C++ and HL background to understand the differences between 'hitbox issues' and tracehull issues, for example, which most of these problems have been backtracked to and in many cases fixed. Instead of fretting, sit back, relax, and play NS on July 31st and don't worry so much - that's for your grannie.

Alien Hitboxes In Ns

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