Sun Tzu Says
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Old Fogie Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12052Members, Constellation
Old Fogie Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12052Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">a lesson in war</div> As many of you know, I've been without NS for the past five weeks because I've been studying here in the grand city of London, England. It's been great fun, but to occupy the war-monger in me I've read Sun Tzu's <i>The Art of War</i> and <i>War As I Knew It</i> by George S. Patton, Jr. There are so many good tips and strategies bursting out of both of these books that I wouldn't be able to post them all here but the following are some of the ones I felt most pertain to the Marine Commander (though many of them work just as well with the Kharaa so pass them along). Enjoy and post any other snippets of wisdom you may have from the great generals of the past.
<b><u>Sun Tzu</u></b> <i>(note: </i>The Art of War<i> contains a lot of commentary so these are not all from the man himself. Also, any use of the word 'he' means 'the enemy'.)</i>
If regulations are not clear and orders not thoroughly explained, it is the commander's fault...but when they have been made clear, and are not carried out...it is a crime on the part of the officers.
If wise, commander is able to recognize changing circumstances and to act expediently. If sincere, hi smen will have no doubt of the certainty of rewards and punishments. If humane, he loves mankind, sympathizes with others, and appreciates their industry and toil. If courageous, he gains victory by seizing opportunity without hesitation. If strict, his troops are disciplined because they are in awe of him and are afraid of punishment.
All warfare is based on deception. Therefore, when capable, feign incapacity; when active, inactivity. When near, make it appear that you are far away; when far away, that you are near. Offer the enemy a bait to lure hum; feign disorder and strike him.
Where he is strong, avoid him. Anger his general and confuse him. Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance.
Attach where he is unprepared; sally out when he does not expect you.
What is of the greatest importance in war is extraordinary speed; one cannot afford to neglect opportunity.
Victory is the main object in war. If this is long delayed, weapons are blunted and morale depressed. Thus, while we have heard of blundering swiftness in war, we have not yet seen a clever operation that was prolonged.
To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (<i>and impossible in NS <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> </i>) Attack the enemy's strategy.
...the art of using troops is this: When ten to the enemy's one, surround him; When five times his strength, attack him; if double his strength divide him. If equally matched you may engage him. If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing; and if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him, for a small force is but booty for one more powerful.
He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot will be victorious.
He whose ranks are united in purpose will be victorious.
Create an invincible army and await the enemy's moment of vulnerability.
Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril.
A victory gained before the situation has crystallized is one the common man does not comprehend...therefore the skilful commander takes up a position in a which he cannot be defeated and misses no opportunity to master his enemy.
Experts in war depend especially on opportunity and expediency. They do not place the burden of accomplishment on their men alone.
Do not charge people to do what they cannot do. Select them and give them responsibilities commensurate with their abilities.
In war, numbers alone confer no advantage. Do not advance relying on sheer military power.
If orders which are consistently effective are used in instructing troops, they will be obedient. If orders which are not consistently effective are used in instructing them, they will be disobedient. When orders are trustworthy and observed, the relationship of a commander with his troops is satisfactory.
[The general] changes his methods and alters his plans so that people have no knowledge of what he is doing.
The good commander is both loved and feared.
<u><b>General George S. Patton, JR.</b></u>
...having once got the enemy started, we have not let him stop, but have, so to speak, kept on his heels.
The fact that they trusted to defensive positions reduced their power to fight.
I am glad that when I fought this battle [of El Guettar] I did not know how hard the country was...had I known how difficult it was, I might have been less bold - but it is always well to remember that the country is just as hard on the enemy as it is on you.
A pint of sweat saves a gallon of blood.
If you find a large number of big roads leading through a place, that is the place to go regardless of enemy resistance. It is useless to capture an easy place that you can't move from.
He demurred, saying if [the attack] failed, he would have nothing left. I told him that was a very good reason why it should not fail.
As to time, every day's delay meant more defenses to attack.
I believe in fighting until a lack of supplies force you to stop - then digging in.
Apparent strength sometimes produces weakness, because people are inclined not to occupy strong positions with as many men as they should.
War is not so difficult as people think.
It is better to attack with a small force at once, and attain surprise, than it is to wait and lose it.
One continues to learn about war by practicing war.
I told each Corps Commander that I expected him to get there first, so as to produce a proper feeling of rivalry.
The impossible place is usually the least well defended.
Squads should seldom be split. However, if it is necessary to split a squad, be sure that the unit separated is at least capable of mutual support.
In small operations, as in large, speed is the essential element of success.
It is much better to go over difficult ground where you are not expected than it is over good ground where you are expected.
The policy of holding the enemy by the nose with fire and kicking him in the pants with movement is just as true now as when I wrote it, some twenty years ago, and at that time it had been true since the beginning of war.
Speed is acquired by making the necessary reconnaissance, providing the proper artillery and other tactical support, bringing up every man, and then launching the attack with a predetermined plan so that the time under fire will be reduced to the minimum.
A good plan violently executed <i>now</i> is better than a perfect plan next week. War is a very simple thing, and the determining characteristics are self-confidence, speed, and audacity. None of these things can ever be perfect, but they can be good.
Never tell people <i>how</i> to do things. Tell them <i>what</i> to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.
Good commanders must remember that the issuance of an order, or the devising of a plan, is only about five per cent of the responsibility of command. The other ninety-five per cent is to insure, by personal observation, or through the interposing of staff officers, that the order is carried out.
-----
As I said, I could write a whole lot more of these because both books are chock full of good tips, but go buy the books and read them yourselves. I'll post more upon my next reading (maybe some Rommel or Napoleon?)
Cheers.
<b><u>Sun Tzu</u></b> <i>(note: </i>The Art of War<i> contains a lot of commentary so these are not all from the man himself. Also, any use of the word 'he' means 'the enemy'.)</i>
If regulations are not clear and orders not thoroughly explained, it is the commander's fault...but when they have been made clear, and are not carried out...it is a crime on the part of the officers.
If wise, commander is able to recognize changing circumstances and to act expediently. If sincere, hi smen will have no doubt of the certainty of rewards and punishments. If humane, he loves mankind, sympathizes with others, and appreciates their industry and toil. If courageous, he gains victory by seizing opportunity without hesitation. If strict, his troops are disciplined because they are in awe of him and are afraid of punishment.
All warfare is based on deception. Therefore, when capable, feign incapacity; when active, inactivity. When near, make it appear that you are far away; when far away, that you are near. Offer the enemy a bait to lure hum; feign disorder and strike him.
Where he is strong, avoid him. Anger his general and confuse him. Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance.
Attach where he is unprepared; sally out when he does not expect you.
What is of the greatest importance in war is extraordinary speed; one cannot afford to neglect opportunity.
Victory is the main object in war. If this is long delayed, weapons are blunted and morale depressed. Thus, while we have heard of blundering swiftness in war, we have not yet seen a clever operation that was prolonged.
To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (<i>and impossible in NS <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> </i>) Attack the enemy's strategy.
...the art of using troops is this: When ten to the enemy's one, surround him; When five times his strength, attack him; if double his strength divide him. If equally matched you may engage him. If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing; and if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him, for a small force is but booty for one more powerful.
He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot will be victorious.
He whose ranks are united in purpose will be victorious.
Create an invincible army and await the enemy's moment of vulnerability.
Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril.
A victory gained before the situation has crystallized is one the common man does not comprehend...therefore the skilful commander takes up a position in a which he cannot be defeated and misses no opportunity to master his enemy.
Experts in war depend especially on opportunity and expediency. They do not place the burden of accomplishment on their men alone.
Do not charge people to do what they cannot do. Select them and give them responsibilities commensurate with their abilities.
In war, numbers alone confer no advantage. Do not advance relying on sheer military power.
If orders which are consistently effective are used in instructing troops, they will be obedient. If orders which are not consistently effective are used in instructing them, they will be disobedient. When orders are trustworthy and observed, the relationship of a commander with his troops is satisfactory.
[The general] changes his methods and alters his plans so that people have no knowledge of what he is doing.
The good commander is both loved and feared.
<u><b>General George S. Patton, JR.</b></u>
...having once got the enemy started, we have not let him stop, but have, so to speak, kept on his heels.
The fact that they trusted to defensive positions reduced their power to fight.
I am glad that when I fought this battle [of El Guettar] I did not know how hard the country was...had I known how difficult it was, I might have been less bold - but it is always well to remember that the country is just as hard on the enemy as it is on you.
A pint of sweat saves a gallon of blood.
If you find a large number of big roads leading through a place, that is the place to go regardless of enemy resistance. It is useless to capture an easy place that you can't move from.
He demurred, saying if [the attack] failed, he would have nothing left. I told him that was a very good reason why it should not fail.
As to time, every day's delay meant more defenses to attack.
I believe in fighting until a lack of supplies force you to stop - then digging in.
Apparent strength sometimes produces weakness, because people are inclined not to occupy strong positions with as many men as they should.
War is not so difficult as people think.
It is better to attack with a small force at once, and attain surprise, than it is to wait and lose it.
One continues to learn about war by practicing war.
I told each Corps Commander that I expected him to get there first, so as to produce a proper feeling of rivalry.
The impossible place is usually the least well defended.
Squads should seldom be split. However, if it is necessary to split a squad, be sure that the unit separated is at least capable of mutual support.
In small operations, as in large, speed is the essential element of success.
It is much better to go over difficult ground where you are not expected than it is over good ground where you are expected.
The policy of holding the enemy by the nose with fire and kicking him in the pants with movement is just as true now as when I wrote it, some twenty years ago, and at that time it had been true since the beginning of war.
Speed is acquired by making the necessary reconnaissance, providing the proper artillery and other tactical support, bringing up every man, and then launching the attack with a predetermined plan so that the time under fire will be reduced to the minimum.
A good plan violently executed <i>now</i> is better than a perfect plan next week. War is a very simple thing, and the determining characteristics are self-confidence, speed, and audacity. None of these things can ever be perfect, but they can be good.
Never tell people <i>how</i> to do things. Tell them <i>what</i> to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.
Good commanders must remember that the issuance of an order, or the devising of a plan, is only about five per cent of the responsibility of command. The other ninety-five per cent is to insure, by personal observation, or through the interposing of staff officers, that the order is carried out.
-----
As I said, I could write a whole lot more of these because both books are chock full of good tips, but go buy the books and read them yourselves. I'll post more upon my next reading (maybe some Rommel or Napoleon?)
Cheers.
Comments
Patton, on the other hand, was a bit of a nutcase <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Think I know where I can use one of them. In ns_nothing, marines obviously secure cargo if possible, and usually send a team to secure the next hive. (Usually via).
Anyway, I was a viaduct with one other marine where we took on many skulks and the occasional gorge. This went on for about 10 minutes and we didn't even come close to getting injured (apart from single parasite shots). Anyway, we decided to knife the next skulk that came but he killed my partner so I finished the skulk off.
I asked for ammo and continued to hold viaduct. I died to the next skulk wave though and when both of us headed back (this time because the comm was ready to set up a phase...took his sweet time) a gorge had fortified the whole area with defense and offence. We lost viaduct and the game (it was our comms second time and I don't know what our other marines were doing).
I should have retreated from viaduct which is too large to defend and where they expected me, and I should have gone to the thin hallway so I could get reinforcements.
What I'm saying is, some useful strats in there.
They would be greater if I wasn't afraid to comm with more then 4 marines on my team.
<a href='http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html' target='_blank'>http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html</a>
if you want to know more about sun tzu look in
<a href='http://www.sonshi.com/' target='_blank'>http://www.sonshi.com/</a>
I think the Art of War is a lot more applicable than The Prince just because Sunt Tzu's work was strictly on war, not just governance and such. But Machiavelli has a lot of great pointers as well.
First, that translation is... eh. It doesn't sound like Sawyer's, but I may be wrong, as it's been a long time. However, if it isn't, I'd recommend Sawyer's.
In addition, taking any of the art of wars or modern memoirs in isolation is silly. It's equivalent to the hoplite phalanx in isolation, and we all know what happens to a phalanx matched against combined arms... That, and Sun Pin is actually more applicable than Sun Tzu, imho. There are also numerous other great texts that should not be ignored... My personal recommendations include Vegetius, whose "Epitome of Military Science" is the ONLY Latin art of war to survive intact (though it's somewhat tangential), and also Xenophon's works, which have a strong undercurrent of military innovation, even when not directly discussing such.
von Clauswitz pwns j00 (please forgive me for that <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> )...
I would reccomend 'On War' by von Clauswitz vol.1-3 to anyone interested...
But, the best thing to do is to read many of these, Sun Tzu's "Art Of War", Machiavelli's "The Prince", anything by Patton (a loon, but an extremely effective one!), von Clauswitz's "On War" series, and just about any other set of information on tactics and strategy. Then, one ought to go through and filter out anything that isn't important to NS, and then note any points that the above all agreed on. Also, after that is done, go back through the supposedly irrelevent information, and then see if any of it can be adapted for NS.
You guys might get annoyed at me listing 'The Prince', but I really think that it is an important book to at least read if one wishes to lead men, as it gives a lot of good advice on how to deal with people, and quite a bit of it is actually applicable if you are Comm. For instance, on the section dealing with Auxilleries and Foriegn Troops, just overwrite in your mind those terms, and replace with noobies and n00bs, respectively. It works.
Also, read Rudyard Kipling, specifically his poetry, as it does help get one into a good state of mind for this business.
Here are some books I think would be bad to read for NS's purposes:
Mein Kampf
Das Kapital (mebbe with a c, not sure...)
The Joy of Cooking
The Anarchist Cookbook (fun, but probably not applicable)
I'm ok, you're ok
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (DO READ THIS FOR ANY OTHER REASON, but not for NS's sake)
That's all for now... think on this...
-AB
Das Kapital is about economics , but not management , since aliens and marines don't "trade" there is no application whatsoever.
As for the Anarchist Cookbook... you can find ideas to survive in thoses last resort relocations <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Das Kapital is about economics , but not management , since aliens and marines don't "trade" there is no application whatsoever.
As for the Anarchist Cookbook... you can find ideas to survive in thoses last resort relocations <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
he said those are books not to read <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
You could just have them read it and build a strategic mind... Such flexes well to all situations, whether they be chess or Natural Selection (though specialized tactics will always have their place).
As far as Clausewitz, it's a give and take situation. On the one hand, he, along with Alexander the Great, essentially defined modern warfare. That said, Natural Selection isn't modern warfare.
For example, the Clausewitizian Trinity is all but worthless. Compare with the Dualism that is ancient warfare, namely troops and commander, it is very non-Natural Selection. Of course, for every similarly non-applicable idea, Clausewitz has another, essential one, such as culminating points for offensive and defensive warfare. Just... be careful with Clausewitz, he's not an easy guy (heck, he begins with absolute war).
Also, given the nature of Natural Selection combat, a knowledge of guerilla warfare (and how to combat it) is very useful.
I witnessed an awesome display of this on a pub (the aliens actually worked together), as the marine commander....
It was on hera, aliens had holoroom for most of the map, but we controlled the route from Marine Start to Vent hive, and we set up at reception. After we built a siege at reception I got most of the team to move into holo and clear it out... which they did. So we set up there too. But I was wondering why the aliens were being so quiet - holoroom fell too easily.. turns out they were building an "invincible army". At this point we only had about 5 turrets in holoroom, but I thought it'd be fine for now while we got set up for Heavy Armour...
Then came the screams of "ONOSS!!!" and in an instant holoroom was overrun with 4 ONOS and a few Gorges. They were completely unstoppable with our puny lmgs and only a few turrets. Holoroom was cleared of all marines and buildings in less than half a minute. Well we knew their next stop was reception.... but it was useless, we couldn't afford the firepower needed to stop them, hmgs were lost, reception fell..
Back at base I was madly trying to turret farm and give out more hmgs, but the pack of aliens had too much momentum. It was over fast...
I've got to read the Art of War sometime <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
1.04 fades... OMG F4 F4!!111
alternatively, rush the base once the marines leave, chew it to pieces, and... let the rest of the marines die to OC's or something <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
In the literal sense, it's impossible... But, in a more liberal interpretation, it's more along the lines of "less fighting = better". For example, Alexander had huge troop loyalty, and a large aspect of that was the fact that he tried to win with minimal fighting and casualties. In NS, it's possible to win with limited combat as well... Out maneuvering your opponent (happened to Hasdrubal, I think?) works, for example, by getting jetpacks to get a phasegate + siege combination up near their only hive (of course, they shouldn't have 1 hive in 2.0 at that point...) They'll F4. Same goes for if one or two see a shotgun train arrive in their hive... Rest often F4. However, even more liberally... Fight limited engagements with minimal casualties and maximal gain.