I don't know what game you're playing, Zek. But I have not once been rescued by my team inside of an Onos. Solo or not. And I've been devoured at least 20 times today alone.
<!--QuoteBegin--eggmac+Aug 2 2003, 05:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Aug 2 2003, 05:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I doubt that devour will be adressed, neither will redemption. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure it will. It is obviously the biggest balance problem in the current version, and although balance problems may be adressable with the right tactics and good teamplay, they continue to **** people off. I mean remember the JP/HMG rush. In theory, it was counterable, too (and I do remember certain people telling complainers to shut up and play), but that didn't stop it from starting a decline in the number of NS players that didn't stop till the day before yesterday.
<!--QuoteBegin--eggmac+Aug 2 2003, 05:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Aug 2 2003, 05:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I doubt that devour will be adressed, neither will redemption. Stop bitching and learn to play <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well they are actually <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Nobody will have to learn how to play, because it's being changed <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
a. If you actually stay next to your teammates and you all have upgraded shotties or HMGs, an Onos will not be able to devour you and get away. If he has redemption you can kill him before he reaches you, if not maybe he'll get one of you and be killed. Marines just have to pay attention; I usually see marines get rescued from an onos at least once or twice in a long game.
b. JETPACKS are the Onos counter. You can not devour a jetpacker who is in the air. A JP/Shotty is pretty cheap and is almost untouchable by an Onos, and shotguns do a crapload of damage to an onos since almost all of the pellets usually hit. I know no one likes JPs anymore since they can't solo hives, but think about it next time. Onoses are the official Alien HA counter, and even then they're easily killable as I said above. Try playing a Onos and just charging into a group of HAs, see how fast you die.
And guys, straight from Flayra in the 2.0 FAQ: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The aliens are too strong now! You nerfed the jetpack! Shotties are over-powered! (etc.)</b> We've had a over 100 very astute and very skilled people that have been playing 2.0 for over three months. Please don't post ANY balance feedback for a couple weeks, as it's just too new for you guys to judge. Balance will not be flip-flopping quickly after release, like in 1.0x. Please post other feedback though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please give the balance complaints a rest for a while, okay?
if i recall there has been a collection of dedicated experienced gamers working to balance this out and ensure that there's a counter for every level of tech.
maybe it's <i>too</i> balanced?
well, who knows...but i know that after 3 days of playing it, none of us would be experts on this....although it's our first impressions, be aware that it'll drastically change over a few weeks....we're all n00bs at the moment <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
compare the first week of 1.04 (shortly after i started playing ns), to the strats developed towards the end of it, it's all gonna establish itself sooner or later, just a matter of developing these various strats.
-----------------------------
onto my impressions:
WICKED!!!
this game looks so much more professional now, everything looks much more incorporated (i.e. sounds/crosshairs/sprites etc.), and it indeed makes 1.04 seem like a beta.
Alien techs are cool, rearranging of weapons are cool, it's just so much more immersive. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
gw to flayra & co.
although the games are fairly long-winded at the moment, i'm sure this will change once everyone gets a feel for what's possible in 2.0, once everyone gets over the OMG ONOS AT 1 HIVE!! stage, we'll see a more diverse array of alien species combining their attacks....there's a lot of potential in this, and i'm sure we'll start to notice how good it can be once the initial hype is over.
i've killed more onii/fades in the past few days than ever before too! they are definately killable...especially with a <b>pack</b> of marines rather than a rambo
<!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Aug 2 2003, 05:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Aug 2 2003, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's getting very easy to get onos within 10-11minutes GAMETIME, this is gonna be a serious issue, since onos can help destroy hives any marines have... And at 10-11 minutes, marines are still too weak to battle onos. =/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines are more than capable of killing an Onos by the time the alien team is capable of producing them, assuming they have a decent amount of res. Concentrated fire from upgraded LMGs will down an Onos, and it is extremely foolish of an Onos to devour a stock marine that is not worth any res since it only makes him easier to kill. A couple upgraded shotguns will annihilate an Onos, especially if they don't have D upgrades(they very rarely do before the second hive).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If everything is so counterable (which it should be), how do you counter the 9-10 minute onos? Besides the obvious "OMG don't let them get onos j00 nub, kill teh hivez0rs", which is quite hard, especially if they get sensory. Yes, I am aware that you could just scan the hive, but it doesnt last forever, and there is ALWAYS more than one sensory in a hive. So far, the only "counter" the marines have to a 10 minute onos is to just end the game before it happens. Yeah, you could scream "OMG JETPACKS YOU NUB!", but when you think about how much res it takes to just TECH (not to mention the time it takes) to jetpacks, then add in the cost of a few RT's, there's almost no possble way to get jetpacks before the 10 minute onos. (Flame shield enabled.) Even still, jetpacks are still not that great, cost quite a bit of res, and yes you can devour a flying marine (done it before, so don't even try changing my opinion). Most hallways are so small, the onos can jump to the ceiling and eat/claw the marine. One jetpacker pretty much cant kill an onos with just an lmg, so you could safely add in the cost of a shotgun. So, you're looking at alot of res, and around a 13-15 minute timelimit (if you're TRYING for jetpacks). Which brings me to my next point. If the whole strategy is to go straight to jetpacks, JUST TO COUNTER THE ONOS. Its just ONE alien class, and there is no point for the whole game to be so centered around onos.
Maybe I just havn't played 2.0 enough, but I've thought this pretty well through. I'm glad there is no "end game" marine strat, but, it would help to have a set plan.
I'd like some responses from the other point of view, that arn't flames, because I think I've made some interesting points (that i'm sure have been made before), and I'd like to see what you say.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If everything is so counterable (which it should be), how do you counter the 9-10 minute onos? Besides the obvious "OMG don't let them get onos j00 nub, kill teh hivez0rs", which is quite hard, especially if they get sensory.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To counter the onos use shotguns with a couple of levels of upgrades. These things ANNIHILATE pretty much any close assault alien. Sensory is a little more tricky but you can use scanner sweep from the comm and building forward observatories (which cancel cloaking completely in a certain area). The onos isn't too much of a problem as I would have first thought.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, I am aware that you could just scan the hive, but it doesnt last forever, and there is ALWAYS more than one sensory in a hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then build more than one observatory, they aren't overly expensive and are massively useful against a sensory first alien team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, you could scream "OMG JETPACKS YOU NUB!", but when you think about how much res it takes to just TECH (not to mention the time it takes) to jetpacks, then add in the cost of a few RT's, there's almost no possble way to get jetpacks before the 10 minute onos. (Flame shield enabled.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the other hand you can get shotguns straight from 1 minute into the game and those murder all aliens (except lerks). The jetpack isn't very useful right now because the maps don't really favour them all the time and nobody knows how to use them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and yes you can devour a flying marine (done it before, so don't even try changing my opinion). Most hallways are so small, the onos can jump to the ceiling and eat/claw the marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it's really a battle of the stupid. If the onos goes into a large room the JP wins, if the JP is in a corridor the onos wins. Hardly a counter. However, shotguns and HA have apparently been working very well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To counter the onos use shotguns with a couple of levels of upgrades. These things ANNIHILATE pretty much any close assault alien. Sensory is a little more tricky but you can use scanner sweep from the comm and building forward observatories (which cancel cloaking completely in a certain area). The onos isn't too much of a problem as I would have first thought<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotguns and upgrades cost lots. Add in the cost of the RT's to support that, and it's tough. Add in at least one t fac and three turrets, to support some random area (probably the base, or a dual node), and the cost keeps adding up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then build more than one observatory, they aren't overly expensive and are massively useful against a sensory first alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They arn't overly expensive if you have resources to spare. If your team is low on res, probably because what goes with sensory is usually a mass alien res node containment, you can't spare the res. They are massively useful though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On the other hand you can get shotguns straight from 1 minute into the game and those murder all aliens (except lerks). The jetpack isn't very useful right now because the maps don't really favour them all the time and nobody knows how to use them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but they still cost res, and at one minute into the game, you don't have res to spare on shotguns for the team to go kill the hive. This IS coming from a shotgun lover, I'd love to agree with you, but I just can't. Shotgun is my preferred weapon though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> . Agreed that jetpacks are useless though. I first used one in my match tonight, I couldnt get in the vent 10 feet above me for the life of me. (Really, I was trying to escape the evil onos biting at my heels. I didn't survive.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, it's really a battle of the stupid. If the onos goes into a large room the JP wins, if the JP is in a corridor the onos wins. Hardly a counter. However, shotguns and HA have apparently been working very well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LoL. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Yeah, shotguns do waste any onos trying devour, but you can't get HA Shotgun in ten minutes. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> And it still depends on how the map is, I'm imagining the reactor room - cargo hallway on Tanith, seeing a team of shotguns blowing the crap out of an onos fleeing with a marine. The onos dies.
People ask me all the time, 'is it (NS2) any better'? The answer I say is yes because it's fun with more people and it's new, but it's not a lot better. It looks a little nicer with the new toys like the minimap and overviews and crosshairs, but it has the same issues plus more nagging ones.
Comm interface issues: Using Hotkeys does not cancel current selection. Select a health pack, now I should be able to select observatory instead, but I'm trapped till I intentionally cancel. I've seen multiple buildings placed because someone is too new or too frustrated to think it thru. It should be natural.
Alien tech issues: Why wouldn't you go sensory first on almost every single map? It defeats tier2 tech MT, gives other buildings a boost (like def chamber does) is near impossible to find and kill (much moreso than DC) and makes all aliens better by leaps and bounds. Pheremone trail is terrible.
Marine tech issues: Redeeming Onos HMG Ammo (related) - HA marine can barely take an OT. God forbid 2 OTs and a SC. ~30 resources > marines 30 res.
Organization issues: There is no incentive to stay together. You "get together" to take care of problems, but there is no reason to stay together. Some mods give a bonus to damage (or something of that nature) when you are near other friendlies (squadmates). 1 good person can still take up to 5 newbs. This means that shooting/bhopping is still > anything else. Now that the game is very complicated, at a simple level it is no longer straight fun. This is a huge problem. Many mods have simply disappeared over time because of it (wizwars for the exact opposite reason).
Technical issues: Texture load failures and overflows that crash CS retail clients out. Other small memory issues. I have not run a server yet. Collision issues (much much better) Map issues (Holo RT is all that I have seen) but overall lack of map-specific strategy is the big one. Most maps do have a double res node making maps all-or-nothing.
Balance issues: Alien teamwork requires more players for less results than marine teamwork. Fades are so weak now, is there a point? There is the lerk for vanilla marines, onos for HA. Marine's GL still seems redundant if it weren't for the fact HMGs have so little ammo (hack-job on the balance). The marine weapon selection seems rather...silly and limited.
That's it. Will I be rejoining a clan, hell no. Will I or any of the 50 customers come in and play NS anymore, for a week maybe. Oh well. Good try.
NS is still buggy, structures still go through floors, medpacks still cannot be dropped on anything but a flat, solid, hard surface, the chair is still buggy, they didnt fix many a hitbox errors, the list goes on. But 2.0 is a step in the right direction. And is worth playing for much, much longer than a week. Why, I stopped playing 1.04 two weeks before 2.0's release, because i finnaly just got tired of it. It lasted over, what, 5 months? The game can only improve, you're just seeing the glass half empty. Give it longer than a week, and NS will warm up to you.
WOW!!! i already got saved from an onos which was cool <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> we are havin a difficult time makin marines win tho... We are tryin a variety of strats but aliens once they get onos seem to conquer...
So far I cant find much to complain about... I didnt expect it to be this fun. Cloaking is fun but it only cloaks you 99% if you are right up to it or within like 3 feet you can see faint outline... guess that needed for a bit of balance
I enjoy 2.0. Lots of new sounds, maps, strategies, etc. But there are some things that I dislike about it.
1) Onos Devouer. Sure, it is interesting the first few times when you're inside an onos stomach, but it seems to be 'abused' a lot <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> . What I usually see it an onos with redemption running into a marine base, devouering a poor marine then redeeming back to the hive to repeat the process again. I have to admit, I do this too and it usually never fails <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> .
2) On average, most games (that I've played anyway) seem to take longer to finish than they did in 1.04.
Having Onos devour problems? Research weap lvl's and give your marines shotguns and grenade launchers. Lvl 3 gren launcher does something like <u>+</u>280 damage so on clip should take care of the onos...
Or
Drop turret factories, electrify them and bild lvl 2 - 3 turrets. No onos will get a marine over there.
Or
Abuse electrify. Build three TF's in a small corridor and electrify these.
Or
Give you marines mine packs and let them drop these randomly in the map. This will discourage onos because they can't maneuver easely around them.
Or
Think something new...like mining the redemption spot in a hive...
<!--QuoteBegin--severijn+Aug 3 2003, 08:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (severijn @ Aug 3 2003, 08:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Abuse electrify. Build three TF's in a small corridor and electrify these. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is <b>not</b> an abusive tactic. Flayra specifically referred to it when introducing the upgrade.
It was taken out because it essentially made hive assaults impossible until tier 3 tech was researched.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To counter the onos use shotguns with a couple of levels of upgrades. These things ANNIHILATE pretty much any close assault alien. Sensory is a little more tricky but you can use scanner sweep from the comm and building forward observatories (which cancel cloaking completely in a certain area). The onos isn't too much of a problem as I would have first thought.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just became twice as sympathetic to me <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
By the way, quick maths: Three shotguns (10 RP each): 30 RP. These three, fired at point blank, are enough to <i>kill</i> a careless Onos (100 RP each). Now add that the marines have the more effective resource management, and you can't really tell me 10 min Onos is uncounterable. It takes intelligent approaching because the Onos can stomp, yes, but you have the chance of a 70 RP net gain here; it can't be too easy.
I admit I was bored for the first few days but the reason was I was stuck in the ns1.04 timewarp. Because I started my first game as a comm and found difficult because some of the maps have changed and upgrades are different. All you need to do is start back as a 'newbie' as it is fun <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I started as marines got 2 of us organised into groups and got used to all new things like crosshair and stuff. I then went aliens and tryed ALL abilities for ALL classes o see how I can be effective. I m still avoiding comm may practice with RCbots but everyone just get out of your darn timewarp! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I've noticed that no sane onos gets any defense upgrade other than redemption. They devour a marine, the victim's teammates desperately try to get him out, and the onos gets a free ride back home to digest his food. It's virtually impossible to rescue someone from an onos without five+ marines with heavy weapons all pounding away at it to kill it before it redeems. I think oni should either be unable to redeem while digesting, or redemption should expel whoever's being eaten.
<span style='color:white'>Admins notes:
<li>There's already a few topics on this subject, please discuss it in one of them. <li>Flayra will change redemption, this has little to do with this specific strategy, however, so stop dancing, Aegri <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <li>Use weapons with very high damage potentials (best example: shotgun, multiple HMGs) to reduce the chances of redemption kicking in.</span>
Marines NEED a good comm, and basically none of us are good yet. This will change, but right now it sucks.
A Redeeming onos is annoying, I wish the devoured person would drop out when they redeemed.
Love the new sounds.
A also love the new crosshairs.
Not so sure about the GL, since it doesn't seem as powerful as it looks, but I've only played about 10-15 rounds.
I agree with the comment about double resource nodes. Since marines have to pay so much to reinforce an area, taking the double node first is especially important. That said, while I like most of the changes to caged, I don't like the new double node.
I love the minimap that pops up.
I see people complaining about how games are so long, but then I think back to when right after 1.0 came out. No one knows how to really use stuff right.
I wish the fade had a little more life and/or armor.
Blink flying is rediculously fun. I want to take my headphones off the noise is so loud and annoying, but using blink to fly across the map and back and through the marine spawn is so much fun. I encourage you to try in next chance you get, all you need is adrenaline, though if you go through hostile territory, regen/carapace is a really good idea.
Marines can tech up so much more easily now, its great.
Something needs to be done about turret farms. I don't mean to say they work too well, just that there should be a way to keep investing res without making everyone's ping and fps really bad.
Maybe I've been playing on servers with residential broadband, but I keep getting horrible horrible lag spikes once a certain number of people (different for each server) join. And really really bad loss/choke to others. Sorry if this has nothing to do with play, but I have yet to find a good server.
I like that my shortcut works now.
I do believe that the balance is there, just that most of us haven't caught up yet.
I think its a great game, and I can't wait until I know how to play it as well as I did 1.0X.
Comments
I'm sure it will. It is obviously the biggest balance problem in the current version, and although balance problems may be adressable with the right tactics and good teamplay, they continue to **** people off. I mean remember the JP/HMG rush. In theory, it was counterable, too (and I do remember certain people telling complainers to shut up and play), but that didn't stop it from starting a decline in the number of NS players that didn't stop till the day before yesterday.
Well they are actually <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Nobody will have to learn how to play, because it's being changed <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
b. JETPACKS are the Onos counter. You can not devour a jetpacker who is in the air. A JP/Shotty is pretty cheap and is almost untouchable by an Onos, and shotguns do a crapload of damage to an onos since almost all of the pellets usually hit. I know no one likes JPs anymore since they can't solo hives, but think about it next time. Onoses are the official Alien HA counter, and even then they're easily killable as I said above. Try playing a Onos and just charging into a group of HAs, see how fast you die.
And guys, straight from Flayra in the 2.0 FAQ:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The aliens are too strong now! You nerfed the jetpack! Shotties are over-powered! (etc.)</b>
We've had a over 100 very astute and very skilled people that have been playing 2.0 for over three months. Please don't post ANY balance feedback for a couple weeks, as it's just too new for you guys to judge. Balance will not be flip-flopping quickly after release, like in 1.0x. Please post other feedback though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please give the balance complaints a rest for a while, okay?
I can click on that FAQ link myself, you do not have to make yourself the great banner carrier of the FAQ.
all these so called 'balance issues'
if i recall there has been a collection of dedicated experienced gamers working to balance this out and ensure that there's a counter for every level of tech.
maybe it's <i>too</i> balanced?
well, who knows...but i know that after 3 days of playing it, none of us would be experts on this....although it's our first impressions, be aware that it'll drastically change over a few weeks....we're all n00bs at the moment <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
compare the first week of 1.04 (shortly after i started playing ns), to the strats developed towards the end of it, it's all gonna establish itself sooner or later, just a matter of developing these various strats.
-----------------------------
onto my impressions:
WICKED!!!
this game looks so much more professional now, everything looks much more incorporated (i.e. sounds/crosshairs/sprites etc.), and it indeed makes 1.04 seem like a beta.
Alien techs are cool, rearranging of weapons are cool, it's just so much more immersive. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
gw to flayra & co.
although the games are fairly long-winded at the moment, i'm sure this will change once everyone gets a feel for what's possible in 2.0, once everyone gets over the OMG ONOS AT 1 HIVE!! stage, we'll see a more diverse array of alien species combining their attacks....there's a lot of potential in this, and i'm sure we'll start to notice how good it can be once the initial hype is over.
i've killed more onii/fades in the past few days than ever before too! they are definately killable...especially with a <b>pack</b> of marines rather than a rambo
w00t
teamplay is the key...'nuff said
Marines are more than capable of killing an Onos by the time the alien team is capable of producing them, assuming they have a decent amount of res. Concentrated fire from upgraded LMGs will down an Onos, and it is extremely foolish of an Onos to devour a stock marine that is not worth any res since it only makes him easier to kill. A couple upgraded shotguns will annihilate an Onos, especially if they don't have D upgrades(they very rarely do before the second hive).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If everything is so counterable (which it should be), how do you counter the 9-10 minute onos? Besides the obvious "OMG don't let them get onos j00 nub, kill teh hivez0rs", which is quite hard, especially if they get sensory. Yes, I am aware that you could just scan the hive, but it doesnt last forever, and there is ALWAYS more than one sensory in a hive. So far, the only "counter" the marines have to a 10 minute onos is to just end the game before it happens. Yeah, you could scream "OMG JETPACKS YOU NUB!", but when you think about how much res it takes to just TECH (not to mention the time it takes) to jetpacks, then add in the cost of a few RT's, there's almost no possble way to get jetpacks before the 10 minute onos. (Flame shield enabled.) Even still, jetpacks are still not that great, cost quite a bit of res, and yes you can devour a flying marine (done it before, so don't even try changing my opinion). Most hallways are so small, the onos can jump to the ceiling and eat/claw the marine. One jetpacker pretty much cant kill an onos with just an lmg, so you could safely add in the cost of a shotgun. So, you're looking at alot of res, and around a 13-15 minute timelimit (if you're TRYING for jetpacks). Which brings me to my next point. If the whole strategy is to go straight to jetpacks, JUST TO COUNTER THE ONOS. Its just ONE alien class, and there is no point for the whole game to be so centered around onos.
Maybe I just havn't played 2.0 enough, but I've thought this pretty well through. I'm glad there is no "end game" marine strat, but, it would help to have a set plan.
I'd like some responses from the other point of view, that arn't flames, because I think I've made some interesting points (that i'm sure have been made before), and I'd like to see what you say.
To counter the onos use shotguns with a couple of levels of upgrades. These things ANNIHILATE pretty much any close assault alien. Sensory is a little more tricky but you can use scanner sweep from the comm and building forward observatories (which cancel cloaking completely in a certain area). The onos isn't too much of a problem as I would have first thought.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, I am aware that you could just scan the hive, but it doesnt last forever, and there is ALWAYS more than one sensory in a hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then build more than one observatory, they aren't overly expensive and are massively useful against a sensory first alien team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, you could scream "OMG JETPACKS YOU NUB!", but when you think about how much res it takes to just TECH (not to mention the time it takes) to jetpacks, then add in the cost of a few RT's, there's almost no possble way to get jetpacks before the 10 minute onos. (Flame shield enabled.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the other hand you can get shotguns straight from 1 minute into the game and those murder all aliens (except lerks). The jetpack isn't very useful right now because the maps don't really favour them all the time and nobody knows how to use them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and yes you can devour a flying marine (done it before, so don't even try changing my opinion). Most hallways are so small, the onos can jump to the ceiling and eat/claw the marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it's really a battle of the stupid. If the onos goes into a large room the JP wins, if the JP is in a corridor the onos wins. Hardly a counter. However, shotguns and HA have apparently been working very well.
Shotguns and upgrades cost lots. Add in the cost of the RT's to support that, and it's tough. Add in at least one t fac and three turrets, to support some random area (probably the base, or a dual node), and the cost keeps adding up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then build more than one observatory, they aren't overly expensive and are massively useful against a sensory first alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They arn't overly expensive if you have resources to spare. If your team is low on res, probably because what goes with sensory is usually a mass alien res node containment, you can't spare the res. They are massively useful though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On the other hand you can get shotguns straight from 1 minute into the game and those murder all aliens (except lerks). The jetpack isn't very useful right now because the maps don't really favour them all the time and nobody knows how to use them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but they still cost res, and at one minute into the game, you don't have res to spare on shotguns for the team to go kill the hive. This IS coming from a shotgun lover, I'd love to agree with you, but I just can't. Shotgun is my preferred weapon though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> . Agreed that jetpacks are useless though. I first used one in my match tonight, I couldnt get in the vent 10 feet above me for the life of me. (Really, I was trying to escape the evil onos biting at my heels. I didn't survive.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, it's really a battle of the stupid. If the onos goes into a large room the JP wins, if the JP is in a corridor the onos wins. Hardly a counter. However, shotguns and HA have apparently been working very well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LoL. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Yeah, shotguns do waste any onos trying devour, but you can't get HA Shotgun in ten minutes. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> And it still depends on how the map is, I'm imagining the reactor room - cargo hallway on Tanith, seeing a team of shotguns blowing the crap out of an onos fleeing with a marine. The onos dies.
Comm interface issues:
Using Hotkeys does not cancel current selection. Select a health pack, now I should be able to select observatory instead, but I'm trapped till I intentionally cancel. I've seen multiple buildings placed because someone is too new or too frustrated to think it thru. It should be natural.
Alien tech issues:
Why wouldn't you go sensory first on almost every single map? It defeats tier2 tech MT, gives other buildings a boost (like def chamber does) is near impossible to find and kill (much moreso than DC) and makes all aliens better by leaps and bounds. Pheremone trail is terrible.
Marine tech issues:
Redeeming Onos
HMG Ammo (related) - HA marine can barely take an OT. God forbid 2 OTs and a SC. ~30 resources > marines 30 res.
Organization issues:
There is no incentive to stay together. You "get together" to take care of problems, but there is no reason to stay together. Some mods give a bonus to damage (or something of that nature) when you are near other friendlies (squadmates). 1 good person can still take up to 5 newbs. This means that shooting/bhopping is still > anything else. Now that the game is very complicated, at a simple level it is no longer straight fun. This is a huge problem. Many mods have simply disappeared over time because of it (wizwars for the exact opposite reason).
Technical issues:
Texture load failures and overflows that crash CS retail clients out. Other small memory issues. I have not run a server yet.
Collision issues (much much better)
Map issues (Holo RT is all that I have seen) but overall lack of map-specific strategy is the big one. Most maps do have a double res node making maps all-or-nothing.
Balance issues:
Alien teamwork requires more players for less results than marine teamwork. Fades are so weak now, is there a point? There is the lerk for vanilla marines, onos for HA. Marine's GL still seems redundant if it weren't for the fact HMGs have so little ammo (hack-job on the balance). The marine weapon selection seems rather...silly and limited.
That's it. Will I be rejoining a clan, hell no. Will I or any of the 50 customers come in and play NS anymore, for a week maybe. Oh well. Good try.
So far I cant find much to complain about... I didnt expect it to be this fun. Cloaking is fun but it only cloaks you 99% if you are right up to it or within like 3 feet you can see faint outline... guess that needed for a bit of balance
I <3 2.0
1) Onos Devouer. Sure, it is interesting the first few times when you're inside an onos stomach, but it seems to be 'abused' a lot <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> . What I usually see it an onos with redemption running into a marine base, devouering a poor marine then redeeming back to the hive to repeat the process again. I have to admit, I do this too and it usually never fails <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> .
2) On average, most games (that I've played anyway) seem to take longer to finish than they did in 1.04.
Research weap lvl's and give your marines shotguns and grenade launchers.
Lvl 3 gren launcher does something like <u>+</u>280 damage so on clip should take care of the onos...
Or
Drop turret factories, electrify them and bild lvl 2 - 3 turrets. No onos will get a marine over there.
Or
Abuse electrify. Build three TF's in a small corridor and electrify these.
Or
Give you marines mine packs and let them drop these randomly in the map. This will discourage onos because they can't maneuver easely around them.
Or
Think something new...like mining the redemption spot in a hive...
This is <b>not</b> an abusive tactic. Flayra specifically referred to it when introducing the upgrade.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->.......WHAT HAPPENED TO UMBRASPAWN!? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was taken out because it essentially made hive assaults impossible until tier 3 tech was researched.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To counter the onos use shotguns with a couple of levels of upgrades. These things ANNIHILATE pretty much any close assault alien. Sensory is a little more tricky but you can use scanner sweep from the comm and building forward observatories (which cancel cloaking completely in a certain area). The onos isn't too much of a problem as I would have first thought.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just became twice as sympathetic to me <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
By the way, quick maths: Three shotguns (10 RP each): 30 RP. These three, fired at point blank, are enough to <i>kill</i> a careless Onos (100 RP each). Now add that the marines have the more effective resource management, and you can't really tell me 10 min Onos is uncounterable.
It takes intelligent approaching because the Onos can stomp, yes, but you have the chance of a 70 RP net gain here; it can't be too easy.
<span style='color:white'>Admins notes:
<li>There's already a few topics on this subject, please discuss it in one of them.
<li>Flayra will change redemption, this has little to do with this specific strategy, however, so stop dancing, Aegri <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<li>Use weapons with very high damage potentials (best example: shotgun, multiple HMGs) to reduce the chances of redemption kicking in.</span>
Marines NEED a good comm, and basically none of us are good yet. This will change, but right now it sucks.
A Redeeming onos is annoying, I wish the devoured person would drop out when they redeemed.
Love the new sounds.
A also love the new crosshairs.
Not so sure about the GL, since it doesn't seem as powerful as it looks, but I've only played about 10-15 rounds.
I agree with the comment about double resource nodes. Since marines have to pay so much to reinforce an area, taking the double node first is especially important. That said, while I like most of the changes to caged, I don't like the new double node.
I love the minimap that pops up.
I see people complaining about how games are so long, but then I think back to when right after 1.0 came out. No one knows how to really use stuff right.
I wish the fade had a little more life and/or armor.
Blink flying is rediculously fun. I want to take my headphones off the noise is so loud and annoying, but using blink to fly across the map and back and through the marine spawn is so much fun. I encourage you to try in next chance you get, all you need is adrenaline, though if you go through hostile territory, regen/carapace is a really good idea.
Marines can tech up so much more easily now, its great.
Something needs to be done about turret farms. I don't mean to say they work too well, just that there should be a way to keep investing res without making everyone's ping and fps really bad.
Maybe I've been playing on servers with residential broadband, but I keep getting horrible horrible lag spikes once a certain number of people (different for each server) join. And really really bad loss/choke to others. Sorry if this has nothing to do with play, but I have yet to find a good server.
I like that my shortcut works now.
I do believe that the balance is there, just that most of us haven't caught up yet.
I think its a great game, and I can't wait until I know how to play it as well as I did 1.0X.