2.0 Stalemates
esuna
Rock Bottom Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15175Members, Constellation
Rock Bottom Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15175Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">ARRRGGGHHHHHHH!!!!</div> Ok, sorry if this has been posted before, but i have had a look through the last few pages and not seen anything. Point me towards the other topic if this already exists.
Right, first off, i love 2.0 (except the jetpacks) and i've been playing quite happily since release. I've had some of the hardest and fiercest battles from the entire time i've played NS in 2.0. This is all well and good. The problem that's occured in several games so far has been stalemates.
In 1.04 there was the standard 2 hive lockdown. Now in 2.0 it's all about the res nodes. This is, however, a pile of crap. I spent the last five minutes of a game i was just playing wandering around with 100 res. The Onos and the Fade at one hive are useless. This was on ns_nothing. The marines were holding Power Silo and the Red Room. The red room we couldn't get an Onos into, for obvious reasons, so it was only the lighter classes that could. And if you put even a cara'd Fade up against 8 turrets in such a confined space, you're dead in a second flat. Power Silo, again, turreted to buggery. You couldn't go near it.
At this point we were controlling seven res nodes whilst they controlled just two. This had been true for pretty much the entire game also.
They kept churning out JPs, HMGs and HAs constantly, on two res, they'd been acquiring res through the slaughter of Onii.
This was after about 40 minutes of roughly the same behaviour. The aliens are far underpowered on their own. There shouldn't be a marine base that 3 Onii and a lerk can't destroy, but turrets make sure that the Onii drop like flies.
Has anyone else been getting frustrated with the amount of stalemate games where the aliens just cannot do any damage, even with the highest classes?
Right, first off, i love 2.0 (except the jetpacks) and i've been playing quite happily since release. I've had some of the hardest and fiercest battles from the entire time i've played NS in 2.0. This is all well and good. The problem that's occured in several games so far has been stalemates.
In 1.04 there was the standard 2 hive lockdown. Now in 2.0 it's all about the res nodes. This is, however, a pile of crap. I spent the last five minutes of a game i was just playing wandering around with 100 res. The Onos and the Fade at one hive are useless. This was on ns_nothing. The marines were holding Power Silo and the Red Room. The red room we couldn't get an Onos into, for obvious reasons, so it was only the lighter classes that could. And if you put even a cara'd Fade up against 8 turrets in such a confined space, you're dead in a second flat. Power Silo, again, turreted to buggery. You couldn't go near it.
At this point we were controlling seven res nodes whilst they controlled just two. This had been true for pretty much the entire game also.
They kept churning out JPs, HMGs and HAs constantly, on two res, they'd been acquiring res through the slaughter of Onii.
This was after about 40 minutes of roughly the same behaviour. The aliens are far underpowered on their own. There shouldn't be a marine base that 3 Onii and a lerk can't destroy, but turrets make sure that the Onii drop like flies.
Has anyone else been getting frustrated with the amount of stalemate games where the aliens just cannot do any damage, even with the highest classes?
Comments
I've played marine in a lot of these games. I knew basically there was no way in frigging hell we could win, and the only reason we were doing this was to **** them off. My decision? take the comm and recycle. I think it's what any responsible man should do. I have NEVER. EVER. seen marines come out of these stalemates alive.
Now with lerks throwing umbra at the turret walls plus two onos the whole situation looks quite better for the alien side.
The Red Room is still an important spot to defend , the new ressource model makes tempgorging to lay OCs here easier.
b) Marine end-game fortification scan be easily knocked when you actually use your abilities. A redemption onos won't help. Use Xenociding skulks until you get enough res (and you should have 9 rts if it's the end-game). Rush with several carpace-oni at once, you will definately knock at least half of their structures (remember, the damage is doubled vs. structures!). Rush with bilebombing gorges under umbra. If you do it 2 or 3 times you will knock it, for sure.
I have joined a lot of games which lasted over an hour already and with slight organization the stalemates have been knocked. Every time.
I'll explain a little more.
What the ns community seems to think of as balance is that the fight should most of the time be reasonably fair, so that both sides still fear combat, and while for short periods of time one side may have an advantage over another, quite quickly both sides will be balanced again. This system is designed so both teams have fun, and tries to encourage comebacks, where a losing team ends up wining the game.
However the result of this type of balancing is that marines (the side which is usually playing catchup) can keep up with alien tech levels fair independant of their size, now this is something I never thought I would say but I think marine upgrade costs (lvl weapons are armor etc) need to be increased, the logic behind this is that it gives the marines something which is more size dependant for tech, however this does not solve the problem entirely, so that the aliens can overcome heavy spending by the comm, the upgrades need to be lost with the building permenantly.
Now I understand that the marines are already having a hard time in 2.0 and this wouldn't help matters, so I don't know, I also understand that I havn't played enough to fully understand 2.0 and the devs aren't going to do anything for a few weeks, and this isn't intended as a suggestion, just an observation.
The other type of balance where both sides tech level is entirely size dependant leaves us with the 1.0 aliens problem where they could spend 10 mins as just skulks not being able to do anything. (i realise my observation above leads to this very same problem)
I think in the end we have to choose between long games that are balanced and shorter games that are less balanced.
I've played marine in a lot of these games. I knew basically there was no way in frigging hell we could win, and the only reason we were doing this was to **** them off. My decision? take the comm and recycle. I think it's what any responsible man should do. I have NEVER. EVER. seen marines come out of these stalemates alive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and we all know gorges get bilebomb at hive 1...
But yes, stalemates have pretty much become a trademark of 2.0 the last days,
from marines stuck in their base, repelling swarms of Onii and Fade, to marines
turretfarming two hives, but not being able to take out the aliens due to excessive
lamewalling around the map, and the aliens not being able to break the lockdowns
due to turretfarming, and lack of bilebomb.
We'll probably see these games disappear as people become more accustomed to
the 2.0-feeling.
If you had far more res nodes them them for most of the game, <b>how</b> did they lock down 2 hives ? That should be the question you ask yourself. Did it occur to you that you went for res and the expense of the hives, and the marines vice-versa ? And you then payed the price ?
However, to your problem in hand. Several people have posted suggestions but most forgot Esuna mentioned they were 1 hive aliens.
Did you try an onos backed up by several, and by several I mean like 4 or 5, gorges spamming heal spray ? If you had loads of res then again several lerks could spike the place to bits. Backed up by gorges it's very do-able.
You didn't mention what your first chamber was. Sensories are very viable now, but it takes effort to use them in an forward assault such as a locked down hive.
All I can advise is that get in that same situation again <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
b) Marine end-game fortification scan be easily knocked when you actually use your abilities. A redemption onos won't help. Use Xenociding skulks until you get enough res (and you should have 9 rts if it's the end-game). Rush with several carpace-oni at once, you will definately knock at least half of their structures (remember, the damage is doubled vs. structures!). Rush with bilebombing gorges under umbra. If you do it 2 or 3 times you will knock it, for sure.
I have joined a lot of games which lasted over an hour already and with slight organization the stalemates have been knocked. Every time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine's end-game fortification can't easily be knocked out, especially if the marines have the hive lock-downed.
Caraspace onis will get slaughtered as they cant reach the 10+ marines that shooting at them along with the 10-20 turrets with lvl 3 weapons. Umbra is kinda hard to to keep up with it's 2 second duration, and nade spamming owns them. Of course they can eventually be knocked out, it just takes an hour to do so, and it's NOT easy, next to impossible with 1 hive
Yes, it was a very tough stalemate, I was on marines, and it was as hard for us, as you had sensories and OC's all around the map.
Eventually I switched sides, because almost all your players left, and saw it from your Point Of View.
I discovered a few tactics, as the already said health-spammed Onos, and also to drop OC's around the corner to Powersilo, with all the res we had they would eventually eat through the turret farm.
There is always a solution, the problem is that folks still think in the ways of 1.04.
For marines offence chambers are very strong also. They are very accurate and take a whole team, emptying their LMG, to kill one. It also takes a full clip of an HMG to kill one.
This is how the stalemates occur... Turrets (along with a whole marine team) kill any aliens in the base ... OCs kill any marines trying to escape.
This is only my obervation so far... It's beyond me why turrets and OCs have became so powerful.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have noticed something with regard to turrets. At any sort of range they will own you.
If however you circle-strafe them they seem to rotate even slower then the 1.0x versions. I can completely avoid getting hit by the turret i'm attacking.
That just leaves the rest of the turret farms to fire at you, but 1/2 the time they'll be blocked by the turret your attacking. If you kinda 1/2 circle strafe, keeping the turret between you and as many others turrets, you do quite well.
Of course, a nearby friendly gorge helps as well <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You are supposed to play as a team and use the structures. It's not Counter-strike where you can go all out rambo and take out the complete enemy team on your own. Why are they so powerful? To promote team play. OC hard? Well, use sieges. Or many marines at the SAME time. Or GLs. Or sentries. (Yes, they can work too. Sometimes.)
I have seen some stale mates but those have been always only because the teams have been clueless with their abilities. The game is actually this time perfectly balanced and winnable from a "stale mate". Just use some tactics.
Edit: I don't understand why people find turrets a problem. Bile bomb gets rid of them easily enough and the TFs can be rushed and attacked (you will die, but it will get damaged). OCs can be gotten rid of easily with sieges or GLs. In NS 2.0, there is no problem that doesn't have a solution.
Right, first off, i love 2.0 (except the jetpacks) and i've been playing quite happily since release. I've had some of the hardest and fiercest battles from the entire time i've played NS in 2.0. This is all well and good. The problem that's occured in several games so far has been stalemates.
In 1.04 there was the standard 2 hive lockdown. Now in 2.0 it's all about the res nodes. This is, however, a pile of crap. I spent the last five minutes of a game i was just playing wandering around with 100 res. The Onos and the Fade at one hive are useless. This was on ns_nothing. The marines were holding Power Silo and the Red Room. The red room we couldn't get an Onos into, for obvious reasons, so it was only the lighter classes that could. And if you put even a cara'd Fade up against 8 turrets in such a confined space, you're dead in a second flat. Power Silo, again, turreted to buggery. You couldn't go near it.
At this point we were controlling seven res nodes whilst they controlled just two. This had been true for pretty much the entire game also.
They kept churning out JPs, HMGs and HAs constantly, on two res, they'd been acquiring res through the slaughter of Onii.
This was after about 40 minutes of roughly the same behaviour. The aliens are far underpowered on their own. There shouldn't be a marine base that 3 Onii and a lerk can't destroy, but turrets make sure that the Onii drop like flies.
Has anyone else been getting frustrated with the amount of stalemate games where the aliens just cannot do any damage, even with the highest classes? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I hate to complain. I will say that I think two hive lock downs are worse now.
Why? Because turrets are not only wicked cheap BUT INSANELY ACCURATE!
I swear, in 1.4 turrets weren't so accurate, I run up against them and boom just drop dead.
Turrets should be useful, but perhaps they shouldn't be able to track moving targets <u>AS</u> easy.
I've played marine in a lot of these games. I knew basically there was no way in frigging hell we could win, and the only reason we were doing this was to **** them off. My decision? take the comm and recycle. I think it's what any responsible man should do. I have NEVER. EVER. seen marines come out of these stalemates alive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last night I played in a game where marines did so. We even had to relocate half way through and still pulled through a two hive vs our one hive lockdown stalemate and won.
simple rule against turrets and electrified stuff:
<b>dont attack it to die, guard the gorge that attacks it</b>
noobs, all noobs.
I think people are too used to aliens not having to work together... they'll figure out they do and the stalemates won't occur quite as often.
Edit: I don't understand why people find turrets a problem. Bile bomb gets rid of them easily enough and the TFs can be rushed and attacked (you will die, but it will get damaged). OCs can be gotten rid of easily with sieges or GLs. In NS 2.0, there is no problem that doesn't have a solution. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with turrets is they are way too damned accurate, and if marines lock down two hives you have no bilebomb.
So, my question is, I guess, how did they get two res, and why didn't you smack their obs around and keep rebuilding a cloaked hive. This is the big reason I like sens first... Cloaked hives.
And...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have NEVER. EVER. seen marines come out of these stalemates alive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've gotten out of one. Lost one too. Luckily avoided any others so far.
but when you have 3/4 of all res a one hive, fade, gorge, onos army can make it.
Hives are extremely easy to put up. At a mere 35 res, it is <b>no</b> problem to sneak in and put up a hive, either under the cover of sensory or out in the open. Rush the marine emplacements inside the room and you will either wipe out the marine base, or get the hive up and cause much sorrow.
I have yet to comm in a game and not win using the following guidelines.
<b>Pub Commanding Lesson</b>
In pubs, recognize who your good players are.
Look for:
-Clan Tags (of real clans)
-Forumers
-Friends
-Scores
Put the good players into one squad, and the rest of their team into their own.
You now have just doubled you efficency, by operating at two levels, a "neublet" level and a "veteran" level, you better facilitate your advancement. Use the masses of inexperienced players to do your grunt work:
Secure this node
Kill these skulks
Run to point X and do damaga before dying
build this
Your veterans will stay better equipped, and will be easily recognized with higher priority, and can be spoken to in bigger terms (i.e. They will understand what it means when you say "Train up to comp core", They will know how to spot buildings for siege, and how to take out gorge-gangs. They will pick up weapons you drop and generally not be stupid.
<b>now, with that said</b>
Equip your marines better. Well organized masses of laymen, and a group of shotgun weilding specialists always break stalemates.
Sounds dumb dosent it? try and see how good of a comm you are when you cater to each individual marine's playstyle.
<i>edit: I have slept 4 hours in the past 36, and worked 24. Forgive my erroneous spelling and general grammatical idiocy.</i>
If you read my post, you can cleary see I said, "it takes a group of marines a full LMG clip each to kill one OC."
I never mentioned ramboing in my post.
This sort of stalemate I am talking about is when the Marine's have turret farmed their base during the game and lost all of their res points. This means Aliens can't get in, so they start to build OCs, which means Marines can't get out. Due to the lack of res points, how do you suggest building a siege or supplying the team with weapons?
Basically, a small turret farm can be taken down by a gorge and a skulk working together. The gorge puts down a few OC's to draw fire from the turres, the skulk takes out the TF (or, if the TF is electrified, he works on one turret at a time, trusting on the gorge to heal him and the OC's to draw the fire.
Of course, this does NOT work for large turret farms, but then we are back to square one - how did the marines GET that large a turret farm? Well, obviously they managed to win the map to get enough res to win the game.
Frankly, I've never seen a 2-hive lockdown that wasn't accompanied by a large marine RESOURCE lockdown as well.
Rushing their base would've meant rushing Red Room, which was also full of turrets. Dropping the marines to level 1 isn't going to stop the turrets tearing us apart.
how in hell does a mariene team lock down 2 hives and yet allow the alien team to keep seven resource nodes???
It s not all about the resources nor is it all about the hives... it is about BOTH. in order to secure a quick victory you must have at least 2 hives and a majority of the resource nozzels.
the mariens making a two hive lockdown and only securing 2 resource nodes is just silly soudning to me... the mariens should have won with a 2 hive lockdown.