One-sided In Small Games
Dralafi_XIII
Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15971Members
Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15971Members
Games with at least an 8:8 player ratio on NS 2.0 are pretty good, but I've run into a problem. I downloaded NS 2.0 and have found that if the teams are small, we're talking 5:5 or less, the game becomes very one sided with the aliens winning damn near %80 of the time. The best thing I could think of was sending Marines out to do a rush strategy and keeping the aliens off the RNs. Unfortunately, I find that Marines, on a 4:4 player ratio, just lack the raw manpower to keep the aliens in check. Every game I played on LAN seems to end the same; the kharaa win. By the end of the game the aliens have at least a 7:1 RT advantage and all except 1 alien player have become onos.
I'm not a newb, so, after my first match on NS 2.0 as commander, I realized RTs meant more now than ever. I told my soldiers to go on search and destroy since it would be nearly impossible to defend the RTs anyways with only 3 men. Eventually, however, the aliens usually find a way to get the RTs up and go ONOS it seems like 30 minutes into the game (a fellow marine told me later that, in reality, we lasted longer than that).
I haven't read the full changes on 2.0, but I think that alien res is distributed in such a way that the res (+1.0) goes to each alien individually one at a time. In big games, this means aliens have to get as much res as they can get, but in small games, they get res by the motherload!
In a game of 4 on 4, what should marine commander do?
note- we played six games, swapping teams each game, and marines lost every time getting totally annihilated by the aliens
I'm not a newb, so, after my first match on NS 2.0 as commander, I realized RTs meant more now than ever. I told my soldiers to go on search and destroy since it would be nearly impossible to defend the RTs anyways with only 3 men. Eventually, however, the aliens usually find a way to get the RTs up and go ONOS it seems like 30 minutes into the game (a fellow marine told me later that, in reality, we lasted longer than that).
I haven't read the full changes on 2.0, but I think that alien res is distributed in such a way that the res (+1.0) goes to each alien individually one at a time. In big games, this means aliens have to get as much res as they can get, but in small games, they get res by the motherload!
In a game of 4 on 4, what should marine commander do?
note- we played six games, swapping teams each game, and marines lost every time getting totally annihilated by the aliens
Comments
They have a greater advantage when moving in groups , and it is hard to ambush vanilla marines groups since most skulks don't have carapace.
It is a better idea to just lerk and spores from a vent (easier with scent of fear or regen) when the marine squad passes by , damaging everyone. I guess spores is the counter to mass marine attack , but it's not easy when you have 3+ lmgs waiting for you.
While the more HAs in a train the better , more than 2 onos block each other , that makes hit and run tactics impossible (resulting in a great res loss) and HAs + siege is almost invincible (support aliens get grenade spammed , onos get shredded by HMGs and turrets)
Stomp and Xenocide tend to counter large groups to a degree , but it's generally used against overconfident marines who don't keep their distances.
Since acid rocket is a hive 3 ability , it is more of an endgame spam tool as vanilla marine groups and jetpackers are very rare in the late game.
They have a greater advantage when moving in groups , and it is hard to ambush vanilla marines groups since most skulks don't have carapace.
It is a better idea to just lerk and spores from a vent (easier with scent of fear or regen) when the marine squad passes by , damaging everyone. I guess spores is the counter to mass marine attack , but it's not easy when you have 3+ lmgs waiting for you.
While the more HAs in a train the better , more than 2 onos block each other , that makes hit and run tactics impossible (resulting in a great res loss) and HAs + siege is almost invincible (support aliens get grenade spammed , onos get shredded by HMGs and turrets)
Stomp and Xenocide tend to counter large groups to a degree , but it's generally used against overconfident marines who don't keep their distances.
Since acid rocket is a hive 3 ability , it is more of an endgame spam tool as vanilla marine groups and jetpackers are very rare in the late game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
very true.
The solution might be to give shotguns to your men and hunt the gorges , who are vulnerable alone. This means you have to build several observatories to ping the map (or search motion tracking if they don't have sensories) and use all your avaible troops in one squad busting alien structures around the map.
However, it's nice that the game's more or less even for 5/5-8/8, though it's hard to clear out marines at the end of an 8/8.
But, this thread is here for strategies I could use, not for me arguing about balance in small LANs. So please, PLEASE, if anyone has a good strat for small 4:4 games, let me know.
THE WAY IT IS IN BIG GAMES
<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> >< <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
THE WAY IT IS IN SMALL GAMES
<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> >< <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
P.S. I should state that I do play on pub servers for 2.0 and actually find NS to be the next best thing to CS. Keep up the good work!
Why not try having your team load up completely with ammo, then sending them out as a group and telling them to stay together. Send them to one node at a time, and cap them one by one. Tell them if they encounter an enemy node, to all stand with their backs against a wall and concentrate their LMG fire on that one node. (Alien Res Towers seem to have more hit points now, or maybe LMG is weaker, but LMGs are still a quicker kill than knives.) Then plunk down a res. Aliens will generally be too busy gorging early game to come to the node's rescue.
And while a gorge can technically spit a lone marine to death now, it is still possible for an LMGer to pop the fatty. A squad of LMGs should be able to handle an encounter with a gorge. Electrify the nodes as soon as you've built them. This will keep away anything other than a lerk or a gorge, until they get more hives and res, anyway, and even a lerk or gorge will only be able to damage it very slowly with their one-hive projectiles. A trio of OCs will work, but that costs res. You won't encounter fades or onos until the player gets a lot of res, and you won't encounter Bile Bombs or acid rockets until they get multiple hives up and running.
The first time someone dies, or the first time a new marine joins the server, or especially if your ENTIRE team dies, now that you have a few res to spare, have them build a Tfactory and 2 turrets in the base, and make them guard it until you can electrify the tfactory.Put this stuff in the center of the room, and your IPs and CC should be safe from newly-spawned skulks. Or if the marine spawn layout permits it, line the stuff up along a wall far away from the only entrances.
That's my idea for a strategy. try it. See if it works. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh, and in a 1 vs 2 LAN game, try building an observetory, pinging for the hive, and then rushing there and building a tfactory and 3 turrets placed as far away from each other as possible. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Now have your guy use his LMG to pop the fatty when he tries to defend his hive.
One of my friends thinks that 2.0 has really newbified NS (his opinion, not mine) because out of the 8 games we played up to date, most of which 4:4, aliens won all of them. As he said, "You'd think we would have won one of them just by chance."
The 3 aliens attack our main base on a constant basis while their 4th member becomes a gorge and builds everything. As marines, we can't use the same tactics because the commander would have too much distance to cover. And, adding in the factor that skulks are fast, this means that the aliens can set up their RTs much quicker than marines ever could (I do realize that marines don't need as many RTs, but still...).
Maybe I'm not a good commander, I don't know. But I'm the best the other 3 marines have, and I'm thinking we're SOL.
As you can tell, I'm very frustrated. Thanx anyways though.
Seriously, though. Sounds like the kharra figured out a more effective way of playing 4 vs 4 was to let one guy build and harass with the rest as skulks. I am guessing they chose to do this after winning a different game against you and deciding to try to limit your expansion this time. Now you need to counter THAT manuver... maybe plant 2 res and then research HMG as Fast as possible, followed by MT and then just telling your crew to keep their eyes peeled and their wits about them so they can HMG the skulks when they find them.
Okay, best case scenario: You build 2 res outside your base. That's 3 total RTs. Next you rush HMG tech and spam 3 of them in your base. One HMG guards each RT and one guards your base. They stay in the corner of the room away from the sturcture they're guarding and DON'T leave unless the comm tells them to.
When they see a skulk try to slip in between structures for a metal feats, the marine on duty holds down the trigger and advances. IF that marine dies, the commander IMMEDIATELY orders the 2 remaining HMG soldiers to the scene of the crime. They shoot the skulk in the back.
You know what, you don't even need the HMGs. Try it with semi-auto-shotguns. Yeah. <b>4 vs 4 Shotgun Defense Counter.</b> Try that to save up some res.
Maybe when our dedicated goes back on the internet, we can host NS instead of CS (No, seriously, we considered it).
I guess, unofficially, closed LANs of less than 10 people total should not play NS.
THNX A BUNCH!
note- You'll probably see me on the internet. A lot.
-- -[guNg-ho]-Dralafi_XIII
In smaller games, each alien will get res faster because there are less aliens to distribute the res too. This allows them to evolve to higher alien life forms faster. On the other hand, a small marine team has to spend far less res since it will cost much less to outfit the entire team with HA/heavy weapons. They will be able to hold onto fewer resource nodes, but they won't need them.
Also in smaller games, aliens will most likely place far less structures as they will all need to be on the attack/recon. Any more than two gorges on a small alien team can easily result in a slaughter. Also, Marines will most likely have less resource nodes and will therefore be unable to place lots of turrets and the like. Balanced.
Yes, however, I would assert that, short of humongous games like 15 on 15, the marine advantage is manageable. It becomes VERY hard for marines in small games, much worse than the inverse situation in large games.
I do, however, now have a solution for small game woes. It's a little lame, though. It's a... shotgun rush. Except, don't rush to kill the alien hive unless it's undefended (clearly undefended, I should say). Rush to kill their res. Commander can turretfarm base himself while his 2 or 3 marines are off smacking aliens around. Res flow is based entirely on marine kills since you'll be medspamming like mad. Worked okay. Could be better. But at least we pulled off a 3v3 (I was able to tech off those 2 guys' incessant killing sprees, no res nodes required besides base res).
And as for the shotgun rush, I tried it. But when defense of your main base becomes a problem (see earlier message dictating what the aliens do), protection of the base becomes a priorty. I did try just ignoring the aliens and what I expected to happen did happen; we lost the CC and IPs and eventually lost the game. If defenses can go up, than it might work, but there's just not enough time or res to do so in small games.
Although I am glad someone else realizes the severity of this problem.
Keep it up.
This should be something that could be tweaked (though not totally changeable) by the server admins. Doing this would allow those that have smaller games 4v4 or 5v5 to manage a more reasonable balance.
I don't know enough about the internals of NS to know whether this has already been done or not. If it has, it needs to be modified some more.
We really like to play NS, but with small games, it's almost too frustrating to play. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
btw: to advance to the hive, use as many vents as possable, keep off choke points as their commonly defended, keep a low profile until you deliver the killer blow, take the aliens by surprise, its the only advantage you have as they wouldnt expect such an early rush.
I guess we all need to learn game more, before making balance judgements
EDIT: Nevermind, only in tournie.