2 Hive Lockdown.

monkeymaster · August 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">is it worth it ?</div> hey guys i just wanna know if you think the 2 hive lockdown stratagy is worth doing now since the aliens dont need 3 hives to gest to anh onos or a fade. when i was comm, i would ALWAYS! i mean ALWAYS! do the 2hl. but now it seems like a waste of time, what do you think ?

Ben128 · August 2003

Dude, its still very important and very viable. First, you lock down two extra res nodes. Second, you deny a lot of mobility for the aliens around the map. And third and most important, you stop the most deadly aliens abilites from being taken advantage of.

Bilebomb, umbra, metabolize, leap, and stop are all deadly.
Web, primal scream, acid rock, xenocide, and charge are game enders pretty much.

Pod · August 2003

stop using the word lockdown

MasterShake · August 2003

Two hive abilities are harmless with the exception of bilebomb. Three hive abilities are harmless with the exception of acid rocket and occasionally xenocide. I'll usually get a TF at the res node of at least one hive, but you should be focusing most of your attention on getting/maintaining res nodes until you have enough resources to do some serious damage. If you are able to dominate two res nodes and two hives, the aliens are doing something very wrong.

Remember, Flayra specifically designed 2.0 so that the two hive lockdown would be a waste of time.

Ben128 · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Remember, Flayra specifically designed 2.0 so that the two hive lockdown would be a waste of time. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

No, he designed it so that many different strategies were viable. Two hive lockdown's included.
And to say that metabolize, umbra, and stomp are not really powerful abilites, you have to be crazy.
Let alone primal scream, and web!

Fieari · August 2003

I reccomend a 1 hive lock down, and then a resource lock down. Sweep for alien nodes, perhaps secure them, but make certain you get the double resource node if there is one.

The 1 hive lock is to deny them xenocide, and the third chamber type. You might lose this hive at some point, however. Don't worry though, it's harder for either team to REALLY secure an area, anything can be cracked... you can trade hives with them several times over the course of a game. Maintain at least one hive locked down at all times, and concentrate on securing every resource node you can. By denying resources in this manner, your 1 hive will turn into 2, and finally you'll win with all 3.

Turkey2 · August 2003

The biggest thing of a lockdown is not letting them have all 3 chambers. Make sure you have phases though cus if you lockdown one hive and one the way to the next they get bilebomb then you better have people there to defend. A single unharassed gorge can take out any fortification. In all honesty 2 hive lockdowns are still scary cus the turrets are so powerful and cheap and no bilebomb. One thing to always do though is make sure to lock down a hive after you clear it out, otherwise it will just have another hive almost instantly.

monkeymaster · August 2003

first : to the guy that told us to stop using the word *lockdown* .. SCREW YOU.

and 2nd, thanks to all your replies guys, i now relise that 2 hive lockdown can still be usefull, but from now on, ill focus on the 1 hive lockdown, and securing res nodes for HA and hmg's.. also 1 other question. when you say securing, do u mean a phase at each node ? or a tf + 3 - 4 tureets at ecach node ? ??

Fieari · August 2003

Securing a location depends on your team's kill rate. If your team is slaughtering the enemy enough, and they should if they're moving in groups like you tell them to, you should be able to afford a turret factory and a few turrets at each node. If not, then at the very very least electrify the tower. If you only have one hive locked, and the aliens have two, it will usually cost aliens 10 res to go gorge and bile bomb it. You will recieve notice of this, however, and hopefully you'll be able to get a squad over there in time... a phase gate at every outpost may prove too expensive, but it depends on the importance of the location. The double node is plenty important, of course.

But with turrets, it will take a nice concentrated effort by aliens to grab the node. This is fine, because while they're working on getting just that one node, you can be working on securing more nodes elsewhere (send some reinforcements however, you don't want the location to fall too fast. It's a balancing act, as with all strategy). Let them have the one, because no area can be completely secured. After they've taken it, and you've grabbed some others behind their backs, retake the node again.

This, of course, takes organization. Waypoints and squads should be used all the time.

Assistend · August 2003

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'> with stomp own so a 2 hivelockdown would be good

J1mmyZ · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Dude, its still very important and very viable. First, you lock down two extra res nodes. Second, you deny a lot of mobility for the aliens around the map. And third and most important, you stop the most deadly aliens abilites from being taken advantage of.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Actually, depending on the map, you arent always locking down two resource towers as you lock down the hives. Some hives do not have resource towers next to them.

Sarisel · August 2003

The two hive lockdown is still important, but it is very costly. So the decision to lock down two hives should be made a few minutes after you lock down one hive (if you do).

If you're getting a lot of resources, you could just go for technology and get heavy armors and jetpacks and then you're almost unstopable (with a decent team of marines). But you could also lock down two hives - making the game longer as you need to save up more resources to equip your marines.

If the battles are intense, you'll want to focus more on upgrades/weapons/technology, as locking down that second hive won't save you with the res-for-kill system. The aliens would have accumulated enough resources to retake a hive before you'd be able to get the necessary equipment to protect it.

If things are really quiet, and not much fighting is going on - yes, quiet games actually happen sometimes - then you'll want to secure both hives and immediately start hunting for resources. At this point the atmosphere might pick up and, if your troops stay alive rather than die all the time, the game will be much shorter.

RabidWeasel · August 2003

In a nutshell:

res are more important that hives, inherently, but if you have the chance to secure a hive easily then it's worth doing so as it's both a res node and impedes alien tech and spawn rate.
2 hive lockdown can work, especially after a relocate to 1 hive or double res, as it denies bile bomb and umbra, both of which are essential kharaa weapons.

Spazmatic · August 2003

And, to add to RabidWeasel's summary:

The biggest advantage of a one-hive lockdown is it's easy (comparatively). A two-hive involves a vicious fight to get control of the second. The alternative, smacking it down over and over, is potentially easier... However, no matter what, leaving up the second hive is very painful, not least because bilebomb hurts like a <insert painful thing here>.

BreakfastSausages · August 2003

If aliens get sensory first the 2 hive lockdown is viable.

a sensory only onos is not strong enough to break through a few turrets and shotguns

monkeymaster · August 2003

once again, thanks for the imput guys, it seems like we have all contributed and made our own little strat =D lolz, ok well, from now on when i comm, im going to relocate to a hive, secure a dbl res point with phase + tf + couple turrets. and then tech up, is 3 res nodes enough to tech up quickly <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

Sarisel · August 2003

Depends on what you define as "quickly". It won't be quick enough on its own, that's for sure. You'll need a lot of kills coming in and minimum deaths, or you'll be seeing the end of your strategy very close to its beginning.

monkeymaster · August 2003

so dying or losing your marine team means you lose res ??

Necrosis · August 2003

I saw some comment about "sensory first" making a two hive lockdown viable.

No chance.

IMHO in most games you need to look at a one hive lockdown and consider a 2nd hive an added bonus. You lock down one hive and those aliens will rush for hive 2, then begin looking for ways to pulverise your locked down hive.

In one game marines had locked a hive and were going for another. I went in as Onos, trashed their PG then the TF. Cleared out the hive, got it going and spammed defence all round. All while the marines were off locking down another hive despite failing to properly lock the other.

I say go for one hive and hold it solid, then begin the starvation game <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Johny_Cage · August 2003

Guys lets not forget that aliens can easily sneak a hive up in a "locked down" hive location with the help of sensory. NS 2.0 is a very complex game and any strategy can work or fail just as easily.

Windelkron · August 2003

It's not so much of a "lockdown" as it is a "preventative emplacement." I locked down the Ventilation hive on hera with 4 turrets and an electric node, nothing else. The aliens could have been lazy, but it was a good enough deterrent to the aliens for me to focus on other things (ie getting res and killing datacore) before beefing it up more.

Necrosis · August 2003

Sometimes alien teams have very bad communications and assume "someone else will do it".

Especially with very good deterrents such as electrified things - most skulks will leave well alone, fades too unless they've acid rockets (or are good, a rarity), and that leaves gorges who are busy elsewhere, early onos who are equally busy getting killed or camping and lerks, who in the early game are sporing marines silly.

Thus they may as well send you an invitation to flatten them.

Sarisel · August 2003

If you do manage to lock 2 hives and the Kharaa have sensory chambers, as long as you equip yourself with enough observatories, there's almost no chance of those hives being overrun. Sensory chambers do not account for the possibility of a 2 hive lockdown.

Necrosis · August 2003

*nod*

Have to agree but also point out that if doing so, make SURE those hives are locked down properly, as cunning kharaa can and WILL be looking for ways around - and the first thing to go will probably be the obs.

taboofires · August 2003

Holding one hive is pretty easy, despite bile bombs. Drop a fair number of turrets and electrify the TF to avoid any unpleasant surprises (probably drop a siege too, it'll come it useful), have a phase gate up with an active patrol, and (very important!) upgrade your weapons.

With upgraded weapons, anything short of an onos will not be able to stand in the room long enough to do much damage. A little marine traffic will keep the gorges away, so long as you place your buildings somewhere that isn't too easily bilebombed (like near a vent). The only real threat is a major assault, which is probably best handled by having a few marines hold the fort while you take advantage of the distraced kharaa... go siege their hive.

The advantages of going for one hive over two is that it doesn't tie you down nearly as much in the res, but still prevents the kharaa from getting their strongest abilities (and once web comes out, you're going to have a heck of a time assaulting anything). Since you've got extra res around, you can upgrade your marines and your defenses. An all-out defense, like a two-hive holding strat, usually hits a rough spot when your unupgraded marines start fighting onii, and then it goes downhill from there.

spyduck · August 2003

You know i never force my marines to do something that doesn't naturally arise.

First off the skill level of your players widely vary. If you contain a really good player up with the rest of the team you dont take advantage of random awesome chances.

A two hive lockdown "plan" is the general "guiding" rule, but if it doesn't naturally arise, then I don't force my marines into a bad position if they keep getting slaughtered trying to do the same thing over and over.

This was my game today:

-I put up res towers at The Overlook and West Res node (left side of map), double res room, and topolgy analysis, electrified them all,
got a phase gate in the double res room, and figured with that res boom we would just heavy up and finish them off, without
neeed to fortify anything.

- Then some guys made an excellent push into subsector as LMG light armor guys, so we set up a siege and
tried to siege it out, but failed. Then we noticed we were geting bilebombed out of the double res room, eventually the double res room went down. Soon we realized that they had three hives.

- Onos were owning us, xenocide was blasting us, and they were making final burial plans for us back at home base.

<b> - One of my guys snuck down to Cargo</b> and out of a semi joke i set up a TF and three sieges. I told him to be very quiet. I didnt start
the scan until all three sieges went up. We were spotted by some skulks fortunately there was some more marine reinforcement with random equipment (i just dropped heavyies and hmg's and welders on an as need basis at the time, so it was pretty random who had what) but suprisingly we took the hive and setup a phase and resource spot.

- we got their attention away and they came to nail us back at cargo, so we left and moved up to siege out the double res room, but turns out they hadn't built it up, since they figured they were going to win right away. We rebuilt the room and got a few turrets, then got some guys to get a siege that reached both the Overlook and West Junction, taking out their healing and oc station used to mount an assualt on our base, so
they got stilfed

-obviously cargo went down, but we had now put back up res in botht eh double room and the two left side res towers (overlook, west junction)

- they were blasting us with xenocide, but they were geting res-strapped as we were now even or slightly ahead of them in res count but they still had three hives, which was scary

- randomly sieged out from Y Junction on a tip that it prevents alot of attacks into the double room, then we got alot of guys to push again onto Subsector, tried to siege out Subsector again, but were getting slammed,

- while this was going on <b>i was following one of my more advneturous jp hmg guys sneaking back into cargo, </b>and he took down cargo again with his HMG anbd some minor med and ammo help.
(interesting reason why too, the gorges just put bakc the hive, but didnt replace the tons of oc's that were lost in the earlier sieging, note to self, if you lose a hive and put it back up fortify it at least with two oc's, to help prevent random catastrophes)

We pushed again on subsector by now they had lapsed out of the res game and we siged it out leaving them with one hive and owning almost none of the resources on the map, we had over 6 siege locations that game, none of the siege/tf structure locaitons survived except two, but they ALL did their job (with the exception of our first siege which failed) since a siege is a pretty good aim. Eventually the aliens realized the writing on the wall and quit.

the point of all this was that as a commander I had one of the THREE solid plays (setting up the siege to control the west junction and The Overlook, eliminating their main staging point for attack on our base, which in turn allowd us to res up those two towers again)

the other two signficant plays were from random occurances by people that took a chance and gambled in a bad situation. Gambling is an integral part of this game when you are coming from behind and they have three hives and are matching you on res. I do think the two hive lockdown is an integral step but somehow the lockdown part is what befuddles me since the res is what makes the game. Also note that strict commanding was not used except to say go here or there to reinforce a particular area, but it was not go here build, go here build, etc. it was a combination of good stealthy marines that had a good level of competence and my ability to react to their position and exploit it as much as possible.

That is why i never suggest a strict commanding list. Its real time and plans fall through left and right. One of the best bets is always finding random guys on the map and coming up with an idea (most of the time its a siege).

ZiGGY · August 2003

no stomp, no leap, no umbra mmmmmmmm

captmorgan · August 2003

I think your strat has to depend fully on the aliens, and what order they do their upgrades. It is next to impossible to get 2 hive lockdown if the aliens get sens first, as the costs of the obs side of the tech tree negate's your ability to get enough nodes secured early on to give you the res to fuel the inherent costs of trying to secure 2 hives. DC's first are your best chance to get 2 hives, as getting +1 weps along with shotties can negate lvl 3 cara enough, and 4 or 5 sentries along with an elec tf and/or rt. Movement first means I rush for HA so my marines dont get spored to death, so that becomes less of a hive game, and more of a resource game, there elec stuff wont help much, so invest in obs/phase to support your HA rush.

I had a crazy game like that as well spyduck, 2 different occasions I was sure we had the game in the bag and then we didn't, and 3 different occasions I thought we were screwed, and weren't. The 2 seige spots you gave (the one that covers west junction and overlook, and one near the dbl node coming from sub-sector, that cut off the map for the aliens) were what ended up giving us the resource advantage that allowed us to win that hour and 20 minute game. (shorter games? pfft) I found those 2 spots purely by accident, and was darn glad I did. Lvl 3 wep's/armor along with the flow to support MT, and "stepping stones" of TF/Phase/OBS allowed my HA's to combat onos/fade's with sens and redemption/cara, and move into seige locations, and take hives. None of that would have been possible without not only denying the aliens nodes thru seiges, but those "stepping stones" that helped my marines not get eaten..

Necrosis · August 2003

Generally once the team gives up, the game is over.

There have been more than a few occassions where the game has seemingly been over and one good push has broke us back out of base.

It only gets easier with alien teams who don't use teamwork, or are sloppy builders.

2 Hive Lockdown.

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