My New Found Respect For Mappers!
SuB
AusNS Forum Admin Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13723Members
AusNS Forum Admin Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13723Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Next time you map-bash, think again...</div> Well, in an endevour to learn the basics of NS mapping so a few friends and I can work on an NS map that incorporates some ideas we have, I started playing around with the Valve Hammer Editor... I'd seen this in use before, but never actually sat down to do it myself.
With a few helpful pointers from one of my mates who's already created a great dueling map for www.AusNS.org, I managed to create a ready room box and a ready room playing area to spawn into.
Just to create these two basic boxes, texturing them, adding join team entities and the like is a pain in the **** enough, and you're dealing with it all in 3 seperate views from the top, the side and the front all in wireframes and grids.
I can only IMAGINE the hours of tedious work required to make a full blown NS map, especially some of the amazingly atmospheric and intricate ones like ns_bast or ns_hera.
I always had respect for the NS mappers, but dabbling my hand it has made me realise why the creator of ns_bast left the NS dev team at the large amount of map bashing it recieved. Creating something like this is a major feat, and I urge anyone who may have a negative, unconstructive comment about a particular map to keep it to themselves. You're allowed to have these thoughts, but just don't throw the hours of work that the mappers have done for <i>us</i>, the players of this fine mod, back at them.
Try creating one of these marvels yourself <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
With a few helpful pointers from one of my mates who's already created a great dueling map for www.AusNS.org, I managed to create a ready room box and a ready room playing area to spawn into.
Just to create these two basic boxes, texturing them, adding join team entities and the like is a pain in the **** enough, and you're dealing with it all in 3 seperate views from the top, the side and the front all in wireframes and grids.
I can only IMAGINE the hours of tedious work required to make a full blown NS map, especially some of the amazingly atmospheric and intricate ones like ns_bast or ns_hera.
I always had respect for the NS mappers, but dabbling my hand it has made me realise why the creator of ns_bast left the NS dev team at the large amount of map bashing it recieved. Creating something like this is a major feat, and I urge anyone who may have a negative, unconstructive comment about a particular map to keep it to themselves. You're allowed to have these thoughts, but just don't throw the hours of work that the mappers have done for <i>us</i>, the players of this fine mod, back at them.
Try creating one of these marvels yourself <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
now move it to the mapping forum.
This isn't about mapping per say, it's about the unneccesary map-bashing we hear a lot of and to pay my respects to the creators of the awesome maps we get to battle it out on...
With a few helpful pointers from one of my mates who's already created a great dueling map for www.AusNS.org, I managed to create a ready room box and a ready room playing area to spawn into.
Just to create these two basic boxes, texturing them, adding join team entities and the like is a pain in the **** enough, and you're dealing with it all in 3 seperate views from the top, the side and the front all in wireframes and grids.
I can only IMAGINE the hours of tedious work required to make a full blown NS map, especially some of the amazingly atmospheric and intricate ones like ns_bast or ns_hera.
I always had respect for the NS mappers, but dabbling my hand it has made me realise why the creator of ns_bast left the NS dev team at the large amount of map bashing it recieved. Creating something like this is a major feat, and I urge anyone who may have a negative, unconstructive comment about a particular map to keep it to themselves. You're allowed to have these thoughts, but just don't throw the hours of work that the mappers have done for <i>us</i>, the players of this fine mod, back at them.
Try creating one of these marvels yourself <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
When did the maker of NS_Bast leave? Any story on this that I can check out?
This is different. At least many of those reviews explain why, here we just here, "oh it sucks too small and blah blah blah"
I can't even imagine how long I would take to create something approaching the size , detail and quality of the official maps, if indeed I ever could.
It does irritate me when people who couldn't even make a box with a light in it suddenly appoint themselves "official map expert / critic" and slag off something that probably took the best part of 6 months to do.
Constructive criticism is a good thing, and I'm sure most of the mappers would like to hear some, but "omg this Is teH sux0r!11", really isn't much use to anyone.
If you can do better yourself, heh, great. Show us. Unless you can though, you might want to shush.
Edit: I thought bast was a great map.
/me shrugs
It's amazing how mush work they put into this, often for no pay, and they still don't get respect. It's not easy to map, and if you look at maps from the average gamer, they don't compare.
I'm pretty sure I can speak for all the other contributors and even the core developers when I say that we are dedicated to bringing you the best product we can make. That doesn't mean it'll be exactly what you want all the time, but it doesn't mean we're ignoring you. I personally weigh all sorts of input very carefully, and it is input like that that resulted in the new Eclipse and new Nothing being as they are now.
Coming in and just saying "oh, your map sucks, it's horrible" etc. does nothing proactive. It pisses off whoever made it, tells us nothing about -why- it "sucks," leaves us no ideas on how to remedy the problem (if it is indeed a problem and not personal preference), and discourages further contribution. Note Relic25's absence.
I'm not going to expect you to like my maps. It's impossible to please everyone, and there's bound to be someone unhappy with things no matter what I do. If you're civil about it, though, you present a second viewpoint that may in fact benefit the product through future changes.
We're not ignoring you. Show that you're worth listening to. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
(EDIT: That's not to say if something is -really- bad you can't be a -little- harsh... Just make sure you explain yourself! That's really the key factor between helpful suggestion and unhelpful insulting.)
Sure, you're entitled to your opinions... just keep them to yourself if they're not constructive ones, otherwise you're just someone who likes to rat without ever doing anything yourself, like, uh, thinking about how to improve it!
Tout free speech if you will, but we've already lost one incredible mapper to people's "opinions"... so in my opinion it'd be better if you just kept it to yourself.
Meh... like they care, they made a lot of money from it...
Not to mention, it was the only map that HAD 3/4 ways to get in. I like that, mostly because it required more thinking on the marine's part.
-edit- And I myself know how hard it is to map. I spent 2 days making the best RR I could, I I bet it still wasn't that great. But It was fun, and only a few people feel that mapping is a fun thing. I again thank everyone involved with NS, because it is my favorite game, and I hope they guy from bast comes back.
So, yeah, whoever can make such great maps has my respect. ( Which isnt much to be proud of, I realize.)
Now, I'm not saying that any of the NS maps are even bad, only that we should not mistake time consumption or effort for quality. Just what makes an NS map good and what makes an NS map such a pain to make are two completely different things.
I know it is a challenge to take any concept and make it a professional looking and functioning NS map, but this says nothing about the concept at all. When people criticize a map, they are usually talking about some specific concept, i.e. this hall or this room could be better for this or that, and so on.
these kinds of suggestions are nothing for map makers to get bent ouf of shape about. it's not your fault that it's so much tedious work to get ideas into an HL map. if someone says a room is messed up because of such and such, why do they say that? did you consider it and did you disagree? do you still disagree? if you see nothing wrong with the map, then hey, some people are just going to be wrong, right? and if you agree, then where's the problem? no one is saying that you didn't spend so much time getting your concepts into the HL engine and up to standards. they're just saying that they suspect or believe that changes would make the concept even better, however inconvenient it would be to implement them.
First of all, if the aliens start in the Engine Room hive, they've pretty much won. They can go through the revolving door (Or just play with it to distract marines) into the marine spawn (Which, through the door, has VERY high ceilings, making it too easy for skulks), or they can pour through the vent and attack them from above.
Now assuming you actually wanted to build a base, you'll need your entire team defending and one guy building, because if they build over near X, then the aliens can hit them from behind from Here and There. If they build at Y, the aliens can hit them from behind from There and Here. It's a deathtrap.
I'd completely remove the vent going into the marine spawn from the Engine Room. Gone. Adios. Not even weldable.
I'd reshape the revolving door's 'foyer'. Make the hallway small and low, so that the skulks can't all scamper around.
Finally, I'd remove the balcony the CC is on and put it on the ground. The elevator up there is just crippling for marines.
Brighten up the place a bit, and remove the pillars in the room. That'd be good, test that out.
First of all, if the aliens start in the Engine Room hive, they've pretty much won. They can go through the revolving door (Or just play with it to distract marines) into the marine spawn (Which, through the door, has VERY high ceilings, making it too easy for skulks), or they can pour through the vent and attack them from above.
Now assuming you actually wanted to build a base, you'll need your entire team defending and one guy building, because if they build over near X, then the aliens can hit them from behind from Here and There. If they build at Y, the aliens can hit them from behind from There and Here. It's a deathtrap.
I'd completely remove the vent going into the marine spawn from the Engine Room. Gone. Adios. Not even weldable.
I'd reshape the revolving door's 'foyer'. Make the hallway small and low, so that the skulks can't all scamper around.
Finally, I'd remove the balcony the CC is on and put it on the ground. The elevator up there is just crippling for marines.
Brighten up the place a bit, and remove the pillars in the room. That'd be good, test that out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A good marine team doesn't die from that. Oh, never, ever, weld that vent. the panel has a hole that allows gorges to shoot bilebombs through but protects them from most return fire. Learned that lesson the hard way.
The high part near the revolving doors doesn't help skulks that much, and helps jetpackers very much when the onos comes through.
For the CC, get a few turrets there. They're cheap and effective now.
The pillars are useful for getting a better firing angle into the vent.
I like Bast very much. The only real flaw would be that you can't get an Onos from feedwater to the other hives without going through the marine base.
Remember, the creators of Episode 2 still get paid. <i>They</i> don't care what you say.
The guys making anything for THIS ENTIRELY FREE mod DO care and would probably prefer to be given reasons WHY something "sucks". That is incredibly important. How would you like to have your boss just say "You're fired" and give no reason whatsoever?
people should *NEVER* just bash a map, i did the same thing the creator of ns_bast did, except for t2. you want to see a whiny community over the issue of maps? hehe.
i'm pretty good with worldcraft, been using it for quite some time now. i admit i've never made half life levels for it and have therefore never dealt with most entities. I made a lot of maps for tribes 2 (which are part ingame editor and part worldcraft for the buildings), but gave up. Months of hard work was shot down in minutes by people spoiled by a certain type of gameplay, too lazy to adapt.
if i can manage, in college i think im gonna pick up on the nuances of half-life / ns mapping and build some of the NS levels i have ideas for. i'm going to a military college tho, and freshmen can't bring computer games, so depending on whether or not the colorful objects in worldcraft count as computer games, i may or may not be picking up on mapping <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->