Marine 2.0 Strategy, You Guys Make Me Ill
spyduck
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18939Members
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18939Members
In several recent threads about complaints over Aliens being too strong/how "leet" shooters are hurting the marine team, etc....
there have been <b>a few suggestions </b> over how the marines should adapt
(summarized)
- "marines should stick together, always"
- "follow your waypoint and you are better than the lone leet shooter who ends up dying anyways"
- "blah blah blah"
While what people have mentioned has some truth, let me be the first (or so I think) to say this is completely the wrong direction or wrong focus on how marines should adapt.
<b>First, lets think, what happens the moment the game starts?</b>
On the Alien side, about 1/2 the team will run off in different directions to a res spot, gorge it, then skulk, one gorge will
get sensory, the aliens will all cloak, then own the marines. And from there on, its generally downhill.
On the marine side, from what Im seeing, the marines build what is directly in front of them, without thinking about whats going on
at every second on the other team. Then they request waypoints, because, god forbid, they hit the C key and go scout out all the res nodes.
Then, if a few have a notion of scouting a res node, most end up too afraid to go by themselves and do some scouting.
<b>In general, the marines are losing because they huddle together like a herd of cows, unadapative to the current game situation</b>
This is so typical of basic newbie flood that i've been seeing in 2.0
Here's my "official" proposal,
EVERY MARINE SHOULD ACT AS A INDEPENDENT AGENT THAT USES HIS TEAM FOR ASSISTANCE WHEN NEEDED
- the comm is always busy scanning the map, building turrets, etc...., to rely on the comm on "Where to go"
means you don't understand the game at all.
- scout, try to kill what comes your way. If you see a tower and need backup, request it. Dont wait for the comm to find out for you. Your his EYES and EARS. You dont even have to mention it to your comm. The comm doesnt need to know that they are building a res tower in room so and so. He expects you guys to make it happen. He'll drop the res tower for you. But its up to you to make it happen.
DECENTRALIZED, RES-NODE GORGE HUNTING MARINES WIN THE GAME
- At the start of the game, build what needs to be built in the first minute or so, then each marine should go off scouting
EVERY res node they can get too and go GORGE HUNTING. DUH. Ill repeat, GORGE HUNTING. Where do you find these gorges?
Near RES POINTS.
HIT YOUR **** C key to bring up the MINIMAP AND GO RUN TO A NODE IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO
- i keep seeing marines standing around, following others in 7 man groups. Little do they know if they had split off in small 2 man teams,
about 50% will be successful, kill maybe two gorges, maybe grab a res tower or two. That alone is enough to be the precursor to
win the game.
- THe marines need MORE "leet" shooters that go off and kill gorges. Marines that move INDEPENTLY, acting in the groups best interest without having to be told what is in the groups best interest. That is a winning marine team.
- a 7 man HA group headed to a hive is something else entirely, but in the early game, if you have a 7 man group you end up with WASTED PRECIOUS EARLY GAME TIME staring at each other waiting for the comm to say something when you could all go off scouting gorges.
EDITED (salient metaphor inclusion from a later post)
WHat i've been saying is that you want to MAXIMIZE your distribution of men
across the map WHILE maintaining the minimum number of men needed to actually perform
or hold that area/hotspot/event.
Have you ever heard of distributed computing? Same concept. You don't devote
the most powerful computer to solving a little task, then moving on to the next task
without discrimination for its size or complexity. That's stupid commanding.
Within this metaphor of distirbuted computing, you would want to have the smaller
task be assigned to a smaller, less powerful processor (meaning less men),
while having bigger tasks be assigned to the more powerful processor. Sometimes
depending on the priority of the situation, you devote everytrhing to one task, i.e.
killing a hive.
THat is all.
there have been <b>a few suggestions </b> over how the marines should adapt
(summarized)
- "marines should stick together, always"
- "follow your waypoint and you are better than the lone leet shooter who ends up dying anyways"
- "blah blah blah"
While what people have mentioned has some truth, let me be the first (or so I think) to say this is completely the wrong direction or wrong focus on how marines should adapt.
<b>First, lets think, what happens the moment the game starts?</b>
On the Alien side, about 1/2 the team will run off in different directions to a res spot, gorge it, then skulk, one gorge will
get sensory, the aliens will all cloak, then own the marines. And from there on, its generally downhill.
On the marine side, from what Im seeing, the marines build what is directly in front of them, without thinking about whats going on
at every second on the other team. Then they request waypoints, because, god forbid, they hit the C key and go scout out all the res nodes.
Then, if a few have a notion of scouting a res node, most end up too afraid to go by themselves and do some scouting.
<b>In general, the marines are losing because they huddle together like a herd of cows, unadapative to the current game situation</b>
This is so typical of basic newbie flood that i've been seeing in 2.0
Here's my "official" proposal,
EVERY MARINE SHOULD ACT AS A INDEPENDENT AGENT THAT USES HIS TEAM FOR ASSISTANCE WHEN NEEDED
- the comm is always busy scanning the map, building turrets, etc...., to rely on the comm on "Where to go"
means you don't understand the game at all.
- scout, try to kill what comes your way. If you see a tower and need backup, request it. Dont wait for the comm to find out for you. Your his EYES and EARS. You dont even have to mention it to your comm. The comm doesnt need to know that they are building a res tower in room so and so. He expects you guys to make it happen. He'll drop the res tower for you. But its up to you to make it happen.
DECENTRALIZED, RES-NODE GORGE HUNTING MARINES WIN THE GAME
- At the start of the game, build what needs to be built in the first minute or so, then each marine should go off scouting
EVERY res node they can get too and go GORGE HUNTING. DUH. Ill repeat, GORGE HUNTING. Where do you find these gorges?
Near RES POINTS.
HIT YOUR **** C key to bring up the MINIMAP AND GO RUN TO A NODE IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO
- i keep seeing marines standing around, following others in 7 man groups. Little do they know if they had split off in small 2 man teams,
about 50% will be successful, kill maybe two gorges, maybe grab a res tower or two. That alone is enough to be the precursor to
win the game.
- THe marines need MORE "leet" shooters that go off and kill gorges. Marines that move INDEPENTLY, acting in the groups best interest without having to be told what is in the groups best interest. That is a winning marine team.
- a 7 man HA group headed to a hive is something else entirely, but in the early game, if you have a 7 man group you end up with WASTED PRECIOUS EARLY GAME TIME staring at each other waiting for the comm to say something when you could all go off scouting gorges.
EDITED (salient metaphor inclusion from a later post)
WHat i've been saying is that you want to MAXIMIZE your distribution of men
across the map WHILE maintaining the minimum number of men needed to actually perform
or hold that area/hotspot/event.
Have you ever heard of distributed computing? Same concept. You don't devote
the most powerful computer to solving a little task, then moving on to the next task
without discrimination for its size or complexity. That's stupid commanding.
Within this metaphor of distirbuted computing, you would want to have the smaller
task be assigned to a smaller, less powerful processor (meaning less men),
while having bigger tasks be assigned to the more powerful processor. Sometimes
depending on the priority of the situation, you devote everytrhing to one task, i.e.
killing a hive.
THat is all.
Comments
seriously this is just asking for a miracle. people have to learn somewhere. but i think the main reasons for people wanting change is due to the clan play. Within the clan play scene theres less of this ignoring commanders waypoints or communications, there should be no ignorance at all really. i think a lot of people are getting some of these points really mixed up between people talking about clan play and public play.
You want to play as a lone wolf play aliens, the point of marines is they rely on each other to survive. If the guys in Aliens had split up and gone ramboing off "im g0nn4 ki77 th4t ali3n b4st4rd you n00bs" i doubt they would have had as much success as they did. (even if that was limited)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->DECENTRALIZED, RES-NODE GORGE HUNTING MARINES WIN THE GAME <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines dont expand as quickly as aliens and dont have to, a marine team can survive fine with 3 res nodes, as long as they dont let the aliens have the other 7.
However, running off on ones own as a marine is pretty suicidal. But if they move in groups of two and actually sit tight at res nozzles or wherever something needs to be built it could work miracles. The reason the whole lone wolf thing (or even two lone wolves going off alone) is risky is because most Rambos just don't play it smart. Don't keep on the heels of skulk or lerk that can obviously keep ahead of you and lead you into a batch of OTs or other aliens. So, yes, I hear you and I think everyone should read this and grow some balls.
When I command I request that the marines stick together and go in groups to my waypoints.
I tend to split the marine team into two main squads (I leave a few out of my squads for early base defense and other tasks) and send them to my waypoints.
My large groups of marines have tremendous success in securing resource nodes and killing alien resource nodes.
When marines leave their groups and go ramboing off by themselves, my job becomes harder, not easier. When they are in a few main groups I can give them all the support they need - sensor sweeps, ammunition, health packs; When they are all by themselves I can support MAYBE two marines.
marine team-work is absolutely vital. A single marine is an easy kill for a skulk or easily avoided by a gorge or eaten by an onos especially when they're cloaked.
small squads seem to work better than 1 big one unless you're trying to push through a particular area.
Killing gorges doesn't affect the aliens the same way it did in 1.0 as there are many gorges and gorging is cheap.
Marines also need a spread of weapons the HMGs are now pretty ineffective against any structure so an assualt squad needs a GL guy who that have to protect because they're screwed against moving targets.
providing staging areas equiped with pgs, tfs and sensory provide marines with semi-secure areas from which they can advance from and pull back to if necessary whilst protecting res nodes. This allows marines to slowly contain the aliens and drive them back.
I have to agree that the marines need to be decisive tho, wandering around will get you killed you need to move with purpose and in groups.
As far as i can see marines have two major choices act very quickly and keep the aliens hive-hopping so they can't get def and sens chambers or to hold enough res nodes to be able to bull it out with HA and reclaim the hives later.
On another note, has anyone else noticed the relative lack of defense at hives now? There seem to less in the way of OC/DC clusters etc at hives - my guess is that becuase its hidden they forget its vunerable.
anyway that my £0.02
Yes, we agree to an extent, where I differ is this
The basic time facts of a good commander
- In every minute of the game, this is whats going on
- Scanning the map to see where everyone is
(each item on this list requires roughly 5 seconds of click/search time,
including time from breaking away from one task to another, then going back)
- Random free res nodes
- Health, ammo packs, possible new phase gate locations
- mental notes of the most proficient members of the team,
and tracking them
- One time "Time" investments
(each item on this list requires roughly 5 seconds of click/search time,
including time from breaking away from one task to another, then going back)
- Upgrading resource towers to electrical defense
- Arms labs upgrades (recurring time investments)
- Building items at home base, including directing someone to build it
-
- Strategy planning
- Slight temporary breaks from the action/requests, to formulate
a rough idea (10 seconds)
I want to point out that the mouse actions of selecting and grouping are on orders of magnitude
slower than voice communication, making them much more inferior. If your marines don't know
how to use the minimap or think strategically at all, requiring you to waypoint them, it is
VERY reasonable to add an additional 15 seconds or more per 1 minute of commanding,
plus forcing a waypoint on a soldier loses the opportunities for random free res nodes that
the aliens aren't paying attention on, or RANDOM opportuntiies that seem to be very strong
in this game.
In summary, i think selecting people to move in pairs and then waypointing them specifcially
may force them against their better judgement. it's a very LIQUID thing, comming, and its not about
the hard and fast waypointing.
I think someone else was saying they would be upset if they didn't go to your waypoint, I've seen
marine teams get absolutely slaughetered trying to make a waypoint, losing precious opportunities for
different branches of action that would potentially be more fruitful.
Your marines know the precise safe spacing because they see precisely whats what, you only see a rough
picture from the overhead view, I base my commanding on the localized judgmeent of my marines. For instance, I don't
tell them to go precisely here, and then build a phase gate, I say, I want a phase gate somewhere near the hive,
and where the group generally clusters and seems to stabilize, then thats where i make it.
I could write endlessly about how little I think of waypointing and the psyche behind waypointing and how it
hurts marines, but for now this is all ill say.
Yes, i completely agree. Once I stabilize my res income, only then do i start prepping for HA/hmg.
Idiot.
I am starting to get the hange of it but its a slow trek.
When I go commander the last thing I need is someone spliting up my team and trying to tell me! where I will send them.
I can see alot more then them!
Listen to the commander, stick together do as your told!
I always pick 2 people to be Squad 2 (S2) and the rest as Squad 1 (S1).
S2 will get the boring, important job of staying in base guarding the stuff, while S1 goes out and gets me more stuff. Once I have a new base set up, I will get S2 to move there once the main base is safe.
If people start running off alone, Demanding things, not chasing down that gorge, not helping eachother out, my job is impossible and I most time quit the job rather than being flamed for doing a bad job.
Listen to the commander, Work as a team and try to do your best with what you have. It doesn't pay to load up just 1 guy with all the best things, becasue he will be the first guy to be swallowed up by that Onos and Good Bye to that 50 or so res!
Idiot. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're totally missing the point.
The goal of what im saying is to maximize area/res/building control while maintaining efficacy, i.e. the ability to actually
hold a place without getting run over.
i.e. <b>You don't have all but two of your men in one place when 3 would do the job.</b>
Of course the number of men per location changes, because like i said, you are maximizing your distribution
of marines while maintaining their efficacy. Figuring out how many men per specific region or hotspot is an estimation,
sometimes it is everyone on the team. Sometimes its half the team. Sometimes its one man.
Idiot. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your missing the point. Playing as a team does not mean sending EVERY MAN to one location.
WHat i've been saying is that you want to MAXIMIZE your distribution of men
across the map WHILE maintaining the minimum number of men needed to actually perform
or hold that area/hotspot/event.
Have you ever heard of distributed computing? Same concept. You don't devote
the most powerful computer to solving a little task, then moving on to the next task
without discrimination for its size or complexity. That's stupid commanding.
Within this metaphor of distirbuted computing, you would want to have the smaller
task be assigned to a smaller, less powerful processor (meaning less men),
while having bigger tasks be assigned to the more powerful processor. Sometimes
depending on the priority of the situation, you devote everytrhing to one task, i.e.
killing a hive.
I appreciate ur efforts but i find that unless u have a super team or ur clan behind u as i now have, it doesn't seem to work when rines are completely independent like teh kharaa.
Your suggestion is good, although I doubt you could get it to work in Pub games were it is needed the most.
With this I agree... Squad size depends on task. However, your earlier statement about independent operation is BAD... Sometimes a squad of two operating independently to hunt (never loners!) works well, but they should be TOLD by the comm to do that, and stop when asked. Sort of like a "search and destroy" button in normal RTSes.
This is not what you started with, though. Yes, I play very aggressively, I have packs of 2-3 roaming the map, either building or, more often, smashing enemy positions. If I encounter a heavily defended spot, or need to reinforce a position, I just move the other squad in. Phasegates all over (recycled as needed). However, in no way are they acting "independent" of the commander, as they end up missing the overall objective... Contrary to common belief, the comm will have more information, even now, with the minimap, then grunts. You'll miss scan information when the comm scans for the other squad, etc.
in the early (i.e. first 1-2 minutes) game and I dont think i've said anything to indicate a one-man-rambo. Although I would say in my commanding expereince the guy who knows where he's going and going solo in the extreme early game can net some very profitable gains at almost no cost in man power.
Usually the problem is quite the opposite of the rambo problem. It is marines huddled together, taking an achingly long time to move from one place to the next, without regard to separating out into small squads. Or leaving a defending force. Or taking any sort of real initiative, completely and utterly dependent upon the comm.
A 16 player team can easily support 4 different groups and they should be able to figure it out on their own which area needs them and which doesn't. There's a reason VALVE included microphone support for these games.
16 on 16 is obviously an extreme case. I believe most strats are designed for 6v6 play, which is what NS is supposed to be targetting. Large numbers are something else entirely, where you can afford to be insanely offensive, strike in all directions at once... Very different.
No matter how many times I tried to explain this to my old clan (even in a nice way, rather than this blunt one), they ignored me. I think I should have went for the blunt way.
Saying that x "wins the game" is shortsighted, for any x that doesn't fit the form "killing every alien over and over without loss of life." Certain things work in different situations. The strongest arguements point out their flaws and dispute/mitigate them, while any arguement claiming perfection is almost certainly doomed to failure.
The difference between a rambo and a "lone agent" is subtle. Seeing an opportunity to make a difference with the correct deployment of a small force and taking it makes you an agent, doing whatever you feel like or looks amusing makes a rambo. There's more to it than that, but that's the jist of it. I don't think you made this clear enough.
Perfect example, tonight on veil...
I commed, opened up:
IP/Armory/obs/MT. I kept 2 marines in base (full 16 player server), sent a group of 3 to 1 node, a group of 2 to another. We grabbed our 2 nodes, i kept 1 group stationary for a minute, to defend as the node they were at was a "direct path" node to the aliens main hive. I sent the other group to the next node, which they capped, then the next one (sub-sector hive). There we grabbed the node, and got a tf, 4 sentries, phase, and obs. Now we were about 5 or 6 minutes into the game. I researched electrify, and recapped the 2 nodes i lost while setting up the hive. (no biggie, they paid for themselves, and aliens did not rebuild right off) I electrified 2 of my nodes, and grouped up my marines to hit the dbl node. I scanned and such, and with the help of seige, we took it. At this point, we had a solid start, 7 nodes (believe it or not) to 3 alien nodes. I put an obs in the dbl node, and scattered sentries and also put an obs in there to give my marines some help with the SC's. At this point, I went nuts on upgrades, got my marines fairly quickly to 3/3 upgrades, along with HA and JP's. One would think we were set, right? WRONG. These same "smart marines" started ignoring orders, not caring if the aliens took the hive back (which they did), insisting on defending the dbl node, and begging for more sentries and such because they saw an onos. At this point, I felt resource denial and security was secondary to hive denial. As much of a resource advantage we had was squandered when the marines did not go out in groups looking for hives, instead, they sat on their butts, and defended nodes. Now, this was very important in the early stages of hte game, but less important when everyone knows the aliens have had plenty of time reguardless of rt's to get onos. See, in my estimation, spamming numerous sentries is meaningless unless it goes hand-n-hand with securing hives as well. bile bomb can destroy any amount of sentries you place in an area, and with it being a 2 hive attack, there is imo a limiting factor to the number of sentries that are cost-effective if you are allowing the aliens to secure 2 hives.
The issue with any marine strat in 2.0 is that the game is now completely tailored to the clan scene, which might be great for the clanners, but it totally ruins pub play on 98% of the servers. Well, that and stomp should be the 3 hive upgrade, not the 2 hive one along with redemption needs to be nerffed.
In 1.4, it was simple. Secure at least 1 hive, and rush jp/hmg, and aliens were screwed. Marines/comm could easily be on the same page in that reguards. Now, the marines have to out-resource the aliens, but not insofar as have more nodes, but in reguards to the nodes they have + the nodes the aliens have been denied to be able to win. Once they have the aliens in that situation, then they should be going after one of the 2 hives you have allowed them to have, not defending what they already posses. Am I looking at this wrong?
The difference between a rambo and a "lone agent" is subtle. Seeing an opportunity to make a difference with the correct deployment of a small force and taking it makes you an agent, doing whatever you feel like or looks amusing makes a rambo. There's more to it than that, but that's the jist of it. I don't think you made this clear enough. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, that was really well said. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
It all comes back to efficacy.
ef?fi?ca?cy
n. Power or capacity to produce a desired effect; effectiveness.
The greater the level of efficacy per marine, the more tasks you can simultaneously perform.
A pair of marines that are just as good with a whole squad as they are apart are a HUGE asset to the marines, simply because they can do the job that a much larger squad can. This leaves you with MORE men to use elsewhere.
2. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The issue with any marine strat in 2.0 is that the game is now completely tailored to the clan scene, which might be great for the clanners, but it totally ruins pub play on 98% of the servers.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you said about in 1.04 was correct, but more importantly, it allowed the marines to act on the "same page" without needing it to be
waypointed or having it to be mentioned to each and every marine, since like you said, it was simple. This all seems to revolve around the notion of getting everyone to act within the same context. And yeah, clanners are already on the same page.
This is FAST.
Marines on the other hand, have to stick together or they get picked off by the lone roaming aliens. This makes their expansion process SLOW.
It's all about speed ppl.
In 2.0, aliens mostly always win if they are made up of a not-half-bad team.
It's just the way each team WORKS that makes the difference.
The aliens are not dependant on someone else to do their business. That their strength.
While the marine need a comm. That's their weakness.
Imagine if marines could each spread out around the map and cap res nodes without the commander's help and put up turrets by themselves.
THEN it would be equal.
But you'll never see that happening in NS anytime soon <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yea ... in 1.01 the common strategy was used to most of the marines so there were not so much need for control as in 2.0.
In 2.0 a cmdr should communicate a little more with the team and tell them whats the next primary objective is ("get double res", "secury hive", etc.). So rines know whats going on and better players are able to act properly without any orders. And if a rine know whats going on he's more willed to follow cmdr's orders.
cya
Scylla
...On another note, has anyone else noticed the relative lack of defense at hives now? There seem to less in the way of OC/DC clusters etc at hives - my guess is that becuase its hidden they forget its vunerable.
anyway that my £0.02 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a frequent Kharra player, I would like to point out that killing gorges can be very effective <i>at the begining of the game.</i> If every marine went Rambo and sucessfully killed themselves a gorge and the RT he was half-finished building, it would leave the entire alien team respawning as skulks with 2 or 3 res apiece and only one or two RTs to bring in more res.
Also, the reason you see fewer walls o' lame is because not many players can afford to build that many structures. So instead, you're likely to see one sensory and 2 or 3 OCs around it. The only time somebody would heavily defend a hive would be very late in a game with tons of res flowing in.
It used to be, one gorge had to fill the doorway with OCs and heal them constantly to keep marines out of a hive, the stealth offered by an OC is arguably more effective than a def's healing powers, all structures very slowly self-heal anyway, and individual gorges have a lot less res to play with.
Your guess is wrong. Gorges know the hive is vulnerable; fortifying the hive is just a secondary priority in this new gaming environment. The primary objective is to get and protect res points.