Rethinking Redemption
Windelkron
Join Date: 2002-04-11 Member: 419Members
Join Date: 2002-04-11 Member: 419Members
I guess everyone knows now that the only Defense upgrade to get for an Onos is redemption since it makes you quite literally invincible. Unfortunately (well, of course) it's super unbalanced. (This was a problem ever since 1.0 but nobody noticed because Onos usually didn't come out until everything was over.)
I'm guessing redemption works by running a "redeem" test every few frames after the players' health drops below a certain % of its original health. The big problem is that the Onos, having a giant amount of health, has a lot more health in between this % and 0. So you end up seeing Onos never dying at all in a round.
This devastatingly steepens the "slippery slope" now that Res-For-Kills is in the game. Basically, an Onos accumulates so many resources by killing marines and redeeming that his resource intake far outnumbers his forseeable resource expendage for re-evolving. (In other words, killing the Onos <b>ought</b> to set back the alien team a bit simply because they've lost an Onos; however, the Onos will have gotten so many resources that he can re-evolve upon respawning, thus only taking time before the cycle starts again.)
I think Redemption has to be rescaled or revised. The simple idea, ie lowering the chance of redeeming, might work against Onos, but basically screws the other evolutions because they have such a small amt of health between this % and 0.
I have two ideas:
1) With each successful redemption, the % chance of you redeeming again lowers by a factor of a quarter. For example, freshly evolved: 75% chance; One redemption: 56% chance; Second redemption: 42%; 3rd, 31%; 4th, 24%. After four redemptions, the Defense upgrades are reopened at lower strengths, allowing you to evolve either 75% Carapace or 75% Regeneration; however, you can't reevolve Redemption (you will keep having to contend with a dropping chance of redeeming).
2) Forget teleporting back to the hive, and just cause the player to generate a xenocide upon death. Power of the xenocide depends on how much energy the player has at the time of death.
I'm guessing redemption works by running a "redeem" test every few frames after the players' health drops below a certain % of its original health. The big problem is that the Onos, having a giant amount of health, has a lot more health in between this % and 0. So you end up seeing Onos never dying at all in a round.
This devastatingly steepens the "slippery slope" now that Res-For-Kills is in the game. Basically, an Onos accumulates so many resources by killing marines and redeeming that his resource intake far outnumbers his forseeable resource expendage for re-evolving. (In other words, killing the Onos <b>ought</b> to set back the alien team a bit simply because they've lost an Onos; however, the Onos will have gotten so many resources that he can re-evolve upon respawning, thus only taking time before the cycle starts again.)
I think Redemption has to be rescaled or revised. The simple idea, ie lowering the chance of redeeming, might work against Onos, but basically screws the other evolutions because they have such a small amt of health between this % and 0.
I have two ideas:
1) With each successful redemption, the % chance of you redeeming again lowers by a factor of a quarter. For example, freshly evolved: 75% chance; One redemption: 56% chance; Second redemption: 42%; 3rd, 31%; 4th, 24%. After four redemptions, the Defense upgrades are reopened at lower strengths, allowing you to evolve either 75% Carapace or 75% Regeneration; however, you can't reevolve Redemption (you will keep having to contend with a dropping chance of redeeming).
2) Forget teleporting back to the hive, and just cause the player to generate a xenocide upon death. Power of the xenocide depends on how much energy the player has at the time of death.
Comments
Regen oni are better. They can cover a bilebombing gorge and more.
in 1.04 this wasnt much different.
Oni die faster because they are harder to miss.
Killing redempt oni with 3 shootguns is easy fun.
I hope "redemption impossible while digesting" makes it into the next oficial patch.
I love it!!!
But, how about this:
The player releases a GIANT xenocide instead? It does.... 1000 damage within 1 meter, 900 at 1.5, 800 at 2, 700 at 2.5, ect, all the way down to 100! I think it'd be cool! I mean, that is a LOT of foul smelling, acidic body acids that big ole XO bubba (aka ONOS) has inside!
*JOKE JOKE JOKE* I also think onos should be able to fart out LMG/HMG/grenades when they eat a marine with that gun <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->)
No one complains when an onos charges into base, kills 4 marines and redempts, but they have a problem with it eating one person and then redeeming.
Wou never spectated a digesting onos with pheromones, right?
The marines pheromone trail nicely comes out of the onos back.
You can go regenerating onos, run in and kill about 3 (in same situation), retreat to a nearby room and regenerate, delayed about 12 seconds.
You can go carapaced onos, run in and kill about 8 (in same situation), run back and get healed, depending on where the healing station is or lack thereof delayed about 1:30.
Turret farms suck...
You should take a page out of cossacks! The more of a sturcture you have, the more it costs to make the next one of it!
So turrets should be like
#
1-2: 10 res
3-4: 12 res
5-6:14 res
7-8:16res
9-10: 18 res
11-15: 20 res per turret
16-20: 25 res per turret
20+: 30 res per turret
Now, this should only be per AREA! SO that if you had 25 turrets in your start, it would have cost like, 2000 res!
Same with offense chambers past the 8 chamber limit!
Just remove the limit to chambers per area, and there you go! A lot of the problems are solved in GL's and HMG's being weewhackers!
No one complains when an onos charges into base, kills 4 marines and redempts, but they have a problem with it eating one person and then redeeming. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno, I certainly complain. As I was saying, the Onos, by being able to live arguably forever, is capable of regenerating at least his cost in R4K alone. Also, in cases where the marines are caught offguard by early game onos, they are unable to recover from the res hit; they don't get any res for the rounds they expend on the Onos, but the Onos gets plenty of res from the many marines he kills. In this case only one side gets resources, and essentially one side gets stronger and at the same time makes the other side weaker. Not good...
You can go regenerating onos, run in and kill about 3 (in same situation), retreat to a nearby room and regenerate, delayed about 12 seconds.
You can go carapaced onos, run in and kill about 8 (in same situation), run back and get healed, depending on where the healing station is or lack thereof delayed about 1:30.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Also, you can go carapaced onos, run in <i>with umbra protection</i>, and win the game (in same situation).
Simply make it so that if the onos is forced to redemeem the marine in his belly stays behind! Personally I dont get why some spooky tellaporter would zap the marine back along with the onos anyways. Problem solved! This is fair to all sides, doesnt leave either team short sided and (i feel) makes more sense.
You can go regenerating onos, run in and kill about 3 (in same situation), retreat to a nearby room and regenerate, delayed about 12 seconds.
You can go carapaced onos, run in and kill about 8 (in same situation), run back and get healed, depending on where the healing station is or lack thereof delayed about 1:30. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
the thing is, redemption makes it pretty much impossible to kill the onos after he's gone. The regenerating onos you can chase down and kill, which happens quite often. You can't chase down a redeemed onos, especially if there's more than one hive!
And redeeming while devouring isn't the issue of this thread, it's the fact that Onos redeem simply much too often, which severely throws off the resource balance of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm guessing redemption works by running a "redeem" test every few frames after the players' health drops below a certain % of its original health<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO. I'm 99% sure Flayra removed ALL framerate based tests, since they are so easily exploited and give huge advantages to high-end comps.
I'd think that marines would like redemption Onos, since they spend so much time outside of battle. Getting called back to the hive and the regeneration process takes a solid 20-30 seconds, with 30-60 seconds of travel time to get back to where they were. Basically, you're looking at 1-2 minutes of Onos free downtime.
Just for fun, here's some things that marines can get for 105 res.
-Equip 3 marines with HA/Shotgun/Welder
-2 Electrified RTs or 5 normal RTs
-TF and 9 turrets
As for redeeming while digesting, I hope they can make it so if the Onos redeems, the marine gets left behind. That would leave devour and redemption as good options while making marine rescues more common. If you can't redeem with devour, that forces the Onos to choose between an evolution that acts as insurance and an ability that's used mostly to counter HA.
Problem 1: Essentially doubles/triples/quadruples the amount of res an onos has, by simulating multiple Onos evolutions.
Problem 2: Hurts atmosphere, leads to Marine frustration, removes pyschological benefit. Marines get a morale boost both in character (Marine) and out of character (player) from killing an Onos.
Problem 1 and 2 can be easily fixed in the original suggestion, reducing its effectiveness over time. However, it doesn't seem logical to do that. So that suggestion is nixed.
The second solution (automatic xenocide) makes skulks walking bombs if its based on adreniline. Spawn, spent 2 res, run into their base and 'redeem'.
I favor a third solution that has yet to be mentioned. The idea is that the alien hive 'redeems' the alien. Well, since aliens have the ability to transform marines into resources, why don't they evolve the ability to transform aliens into resources? When an alien dies, they receive part of their original investment back. The amount recieved back would be based on the # of chambers (1-3). For example
1 Chamber: 25% of res spent on current status (Fade + 3 upgrades = 56 res. The alien gets 14 res back on death).
2 Chamber: 45% of res spent on current status (Fade + 3 upgrades = 56 res. The alien gets 25 res back on death).
3 Chamber: 80% of res spent on current status (Fade + 3 upgrades = 56 res. The alien gets 45 res back on death).
This would help solved the problem of digestion, as well as the reoccuring onos theme. It would also encourage multiple classes per person per game. If you died as a fade and got 25 res back, you have 25 res. It would make more sense to maybe go gorge and drop a res node than to save up as fade again. The percentages would need testing, but this would solve the 2 problems plaguing Redemption currently. It would also encourage a broader use of Defense chambers before hive 2 and help balance the mds/sdm pattern.
That is ridiculous. There are two things wrong with that statement:
1.) All defense upgrades are viable for Onoses. Carapace adds a whole lot of armor and lets the Onos wreak more havoc before he retreats to a hive(but takes the longest to regenerate without multiple Ds there). Regen gives an Onos 50hp per tick, and IMHO has always been a better choice than redemption.
2.) Redemption Onoses are highly overrated, and are not invincible. I have completely lost count of the number of times an Onos has tried to attack some marines with anything better than LMGs and been redeemed before it even reached them. Against a good marine team they often waste a LOT of time healing and running back to where they were. A smart Onos won't die very often anyway with the other D upgrades, so redemption Onoses don't usually contribute as much to the team in the long run since they spend so much time between fights and accomplishes so little. The primary advantage of Redemption is devouring a single HA and redeeming, which is gone now so there's no longer a problem. Also, L3 shotguns will simply tear through a redemption onos and leave a very small chance of successfully redeeming, so 100 res down the drain.
Let's think for a moment. Compare:
Carapace: The onos can remain in the fray for longer and get more kills, and is usually able to get away while under fire if the player is vaguely intelligent. He just has to go to some D chambers or a hive and sit there for a bit before he does it all over again.
Regeneration: I love this upgrade. The onos can kill a couple people then run a couple rooms and regenerate his HP in seconds, then go right back and do it again. Excellent for hit and run tactics, and can devour more HAs faster than the other two since he only has to keep out of sight for a bit. Marines are very likely to chase a running Onos and if you wait around the corner for them you'll have enough HP to take them out by the time they get there. Least likely to survive if he charges into the middle of a turret farm with marines like most Onos newbies are prone to do, so you have to pick your fights and get your team's backup if you want to make an assault. Play smart and regen Onos is the way to go if you ask me.
Redemption: Is able to be played like a complete idiot, which apparently is attractive to many pub players. Against L3 weapons, will often be redeemed before he even gets a single hit in. Able to be killed by shotguns and nade explosions, and has to regen all his HP back at a hive very often. Not useful in hive defense and not capable of sticking around long enough to help much in an organized attack. Its primary advantage is the devour & redeem cheese tactic which is going to be gone in the near future. Easily the least combat effective of the upgrades, and their only real advantage come 2.01 will be the fact that actual skill is completely optional.
Listen, there is a very important skill that applies to all aliens that some pubbers just need to learn: knowing how much you can take and when to run before you're at serious risk of dying. This applies to Onoses more than ever now in 2.0, and it scares away the players who don't like having to restrain themselves and just don't like being careful in general. That's why you hear complaints about how nerfed Fades and Onoses are in 2.0... Redemption is an attractive option because they can play just as mindlessly as in 1.04, they'll just accomplish less/nothing. In practice it is not nearly as effective as the alternatives if you ask me and I'm tired of hearing all the nerf calls and seeing the onoses on my team get redeemed every 30 seconds instead of actually helping with anything.
I've seen one HMG and LMG marine hold off 3 Redempt Onos bearing down at them through a hallway. HMG guy didn't even have to reload.
The only way i've ever see a game like this end is one of two ways
a) the marines finally f4 in frustration
b) Redemption onos drain their res by constantly rushing until they're defences finally give due to lack of welders and marine firepower to back them (aka GL + shotty). Either that or the whole team dies from an onos assault and the rest of the alien team runs in to finish them before they spawn (but a DB can counter this...)
If your trying to take out a turret farm in their base or outside of it, redemption is almost essential, no matter how skilled you are. It's not hard to hit something so big that's running at you. In fact without redemption aliens would pretty much always lose those longer games because they would eventually run out of resources to evolve into anything over a lerk fast enough to contain the marines. You may say that only newb onos will go on suicidal runs at marine outposts or HA trains, but sometimes that exactly what your team needs you to do. Onos are not meant to be gorge protectors or escorts. They're meant to be crushers, who kill anything in their path and they ought to for 100 res + 2 to 3 upgrades (not to mention the long gestate time).
I'm sick of the game being HA vs Onos as well, but as long as that's the popular strategy, we have to counter it. The only way an onos could take out an HA train with the non-cooperative teams we see in pubs today would be....guess...redemption!
You forget that alien resources are individual. Compare 1 commander with 105 res (allowing him to equip 3 marines with HA/HMG/welder or whatever else) to a multitude of oni each with 105 res apiece... that equals like 600 res to 100. Now if alien res was group based, aliens would die all the time, because you're right, spending 105 res on one onos vs what marines could spend 105 res on is crap. But 105 res for marines vs 105 res for every alien on the team... completely different story.
And there is no way you can call Onoses the game-ender anymore. You can get them in minutes with RFK and they certainly don't immediately end the game then like they would have in 1.04. Onoses are crucial members of the team in the late game but that doesn't mean they can just rambo into a marine base and clear everything out eventually like in 1.04.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i think that onos shouldnt be able to eat HA, cuz they're so huge and the onos' mouth cant fit em, but hey, just my opinion<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When are people going to realize that Devour is the <u>counter</u> to HAs? If it only worked against LAs they might as well just get rid of it and replace it with something useful.
Redemtion is fine for onos, it takes 2 marines shooting at it to redeem before it even reaches them
stop whinging
1 Chamber: 25% of res spent on current status (Fade + 3 upgrades = 56 res. The alien gets 14 res back on death).
2 Chamber: 45% of res spent on current status (Fade + 3 upgrades = 56 res. The alien gets 25 res back on death).
3 Chamber: 80% of res spent on current status (Fade + 3 upgrades = 56 res. The alien gets 45 res back on death).
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now THAT I like <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Numbers might need tweaking but it's the right way of thinking. Redemption oni ARE a problem if only because redemption on an onos is essentially a "get out of jail free card". You can run into a base and never care about dying because you won't (and btw I dunno what magical shotguns and GLs you other guys are using but even to concentrated lvl 3 weapons fire redemption oni die very rarely). Sure, you might be able to make that onos redeem before he causes any trouble, but guess what, he's coming straight back into the fight and he'll probably be hitting you somewhere else where you're more vunerable. On other classes it's not so much of a problem because they can't cause quite as much devestation. Oni can though and I believe that allowing them to be essentially invunerable is neither in the spirit of the game nor a nessassary feature. The above suggestion offers, I believe, a good compromise.
Redemption onos aren't much good on the offensive, either. They may have the freedom to come back repeatedly, but if they meet any amount of concentrated firepower they redeem, but everybody knows this because its been said about a few hundred times already. Probably their only good role is taking out rambos, or heavies that stray too far from thier group, or who fail to check their 6's.
I would like to see carapaced onos be a -little- bit better against level 3 weapons. Currently a carapaced onos requires 100% more support (in the form of healing), and lasts exactly 2 seconds longer under concentrated fire. Some higher damage reductions would be in order I believe.
Onos are not the game enders they used to be, which was demonstrated to me by a certain game I played on a pub server that was only won after some of the onos died, and went to other classes, such as lerks and fades. Mixing it up is infinatly more valuable than a whole team of redeeming onos.
Back on topic, I think it would be fine with a few modifications. Weight modifiers of marine equipment could be used to alter the "speed" at which redemption takes place. Basically the heavier the equipment nabbed, the longer a redemption takes to kick in. It doesn't have to be much longer either. An onos sticking around a single second longer is quite easily destroyed.
Basically an onos with an HA HMG takes a couple seconds longer to redeem. Two seconds of concentrated firepower on top of the damage it has taken to already trigger redemption is a huge handicap. However it would make more sense seeing as the recalled onos has extra mass, extra mass takes longer/more energy(or whatever else redemption actually uses) to port the onos + baggage to the hive. Would be more consistant with the story I think than the marine just popping out because the hive "ignored" it.
Well thats my opinion, seems logical to me.
That and not being able to redeem while devouring.