My Problem With Redemption
Mick
Join Date: 2003-08-10 Member: 19390Members
Join Date: 2003-08-10 Member: 19390Members
I'm sure I'm posting this in the wrong area and I apologize in advance.
While I've been playing NS for quite awhile, this is my first post. I have to start off by saying that this is an awsome game and the Develoment Team has outdone themselves by making a game thats better then 75% of the retail stuff that I spend my hard earned money on. Now, on to my big problem with 2.0.
The redemption evolution is just ungodly, with a 90%+ sucess rate. While this causes problems early on with skulks, now that you can evolve to Fades and Onos without 3 hives, it completely unbalances the game. I've read all of the other posts on the imbalances so far and I can see peoples' points, but I think that the redemption problem alone is responsible for a large part of the game imbalance now. Anyone that has played 2.0 as a marine knows exactly what I am talking about. After a short period, you are being rushed at base by several Onos and Fades that you simply can't kill. Even if you co-ordinate forces and finally down one or two, they simply teleport back to the hive, heal and re-attack. I haven't timed this but it seems to cause Onos waves every 1 to 2 minutes (depending on hive location and the map). The only solution I have seen for this is for the marines to take and hold almost every resource nozzle which is incredibly hard and takes away from the game itself.
And a final problem I see, not as major but still annoying, is the Skulks' Xenocide range. It seems to have been increased in both diameter and power. I think the explosive diameter is the biggest problem, I have no problem with it being so deadly at short range.
Once again, Thanks to the NS team for an awesome game!!!
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo-->
While I've been playing NS for quite awhile, this is my first post. I have to start off by saying that this is an awsome game and the Develoment Team has outdone themselves by making a game thats better then 75% of the retail stuff that I spend my hard earned money on. Now, on to my big problem with 2.0.
The redemption evolution is just ungodly, with a 90%+ sucess rate. While this causes problems early on with skulks, now that you can evolve to Fades and Onos without 3 hives, it completely unbalances the game. I've read all of the other posts on the imbalances so far and I can see peoples' points, but I think that the redemption problem alone is responsible for a large part of the game imbalance now. Anyone that has played 2.0 as a marine knows exactly what I am talking about. After a short period, you are being rushed at base by several Onos and Fades that you simply can't kill. Even if you co-ordinate forces and finally down one or two, they simply teleport back to the hive, heal and re-attack. I haven't timed this but it seems to cause Onos waves every 1 to 2 minutes (depending on hive location and the map). The only solution I have seen for this is for the marines to take and hold almost every resource nozzle which is incredibly hard and takes away from the game itself.
And a final problem I see, not as major but still annoying, is the Skulks' Xenocide range. It seems to have been increased in both diameter and power. I think the explosive diameter is the biggest problem, I have no problem with it being so deadly at short range.
Once again, Thanks to the NS team for an awesome game!!!
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
(Has anyone noticed that almost in EVERY suggestion thread the people start off with "I've been playing NS for so-and-so" ?)
onos noobs with redem are just irritating
A squad of HMG/shotties have a pretty good chance of taking out an onos or a fade with redemption as well. If not, they usually get sent back to where they came from by a competent team in a matter of seconds, not enough time to do real lasting damage.
"(Has anyone noticed that almost in EVERY suggestion thread the people start off with "I've been playing NS for so-and-so" ?) "
You know, I didn't even realize it but he's right..... Its always there someplace.....
Well, the skulk redemption does unbalance the early phases somewhat due to both teams respawn times. but what I was trying to get at was when the Onos and Fades come into play, it totally destroys play balance. These are vastly superior units that require large amounts of marine manpower and firepower to take down, and when they just respawn and heal inside of 1 minute, it knocks the whole game out of balance. It would be like marines with HA and HMG's respawning back to base. My own personal solution would to be to drasticly reduce the % change of redemption. This could lower more and more as you become more powerful aliens or simply lower some for all types. Otherwise, some other possibilties could be re-appearing at the hive as a skulk or lesser alien, or taking longer to re-appear the more powerful an alien you are.
Fades vs. Level 0-1 = Fade wins.
Fades vs level 2-3 = Marines win.
It's not good. Redemption is the only chance aliens have, because of individual resource pools.
Onos and Fades redeeming would not equate to HAs with HMGs redeeming. To begin with, a lone HA/HMG or HA/Shottie can redeem two fades as long as they're not both beating on him before he's taken a shot, and even then possibly. Barring devour, a lone HA/HMG or HA/Shottie also has a decent chance against an Onos. Two HAs, no question. Devour, it's pretty safe to say, will eliminate redeeming in a future patch, so it shouldn't really count in a discussion about redeeming.
However, if the problem is really that bad, my proposed solution would be for aliens to give up res when they're redeeming just like they died. So the Onos throwing himself at your turreted base again and again will probably give out more res than he destroys at the end of the day. The downside is that it makes endgame turret farms last perpetually, especially on pubs, and it's not really necessary IMO. But just something to think about.
Also, to MonkeyBone, I'm not sure what you mean. A lone Fade against a squad of upgraded marines or what? In that situation, I can usually blink in, kill one, and blink out before getting killed, and this is without redemption. One-on-one, there's no question. They may not have the damage output but they have a bunch of other qualitative abilities (use of blink, cloak, sensories, proximity to D and M chambers, etc) that give them the upper hand. Fades simply aren't the low-level tanks that they were in 1.04. HA/upgraded weapons are in a different league, but marine res is "more valuable" than alien res, they require a tech upgrade, and I'd put one HA/HMG on par with two fades, easily (in terms of cost).
Amen.
LOL
Lets try this again---
I can agree with you SOMEWHAT ScarlettPhoenix but I think you vastly overestimate the ability of a single marine unit with a HMG to take down Fades and Onos. In theory, YES it can be done. BUT, any decent player will not confront heavily armed marines in an open area or long hallway. He (or she) will wait around a corner or in a confined space and jump into the marines at close range. He will get at least 2-3 marines before they can get him. I know that marines and turrets can drag out a game forever (it drives me nuts even when I'm the losing marine side), but I don't think this version of redemption in the answer.
As for Monkeybonk's idea, its not bad. But I think it should be based on the number of hives up and only be a SMALL increase in powers. This could add more incentive for teams to secure the hives (marines to stop this small increase and aliens to get it). It seems to me that in 2.0 the hives are much less contested as they are not needed to get the heavier units into the field.
And on an unrelated note (AND MIND YOU I LOVE 2.0)... I remember that 2.0 was going to shorten the games...LOL, almost every game I play now goes into some sort of stalemate. Last game I played was for about 90 minutes before my team pulled off a victory. Was real fun but SOOOOOO long.
Hmm I'm not sure how to state this: Basically I'm saying that in a long game, the aliens WILL ALWAYS END UP UNDERGUNNED. Simply because of their limited choices of upgrades, and the fact that they don't get better with time: They simply have new choices to make.
Marines get both new choices (Weaponry and buildings) AND they get better with time (Armor and weapon upgrades).
Every hive should give you much better armor and damage. That's how the arms lab works, but that leaves the aliens horribly undergunned.
It's hard to describe...
I guess the best way is:
- Just because you have 3 hives doesn't mean you're going to win. In fact, countless times the marines have comeback after 3 hives. I've done it: It's not too hard. Hive 3 aliens die just the same as Hive 1 aliens.
- However, more often then not, fighting fully upgraded marines will result in an alien loss. Simply because the marines upgrade a LOT, and the aliens upgrade a LITTLE. What good is 'cloaking' when I'm going to die in less then a second when they see me on minimap? Fighting high tech marines take 20x the killing power as low-tech marines.
Against high-tech marines, aliens don't stand a chance. Redemption IS their only chance.
In this case, the battlefield makes the difference.
When the Kharaa are attacking a decent turret farm, they will redem out before doing much damage. Given that anything which isn't destroyed can be welded for free, this can make an attack effectively useless. If the same attack were attempted with carapace, the battle might have been won.
Another possible situation is marines attacking a hive. In this case, the alien will simply redem deeper into the hive. With a gren launcher or siege cannon, redeming is just delaying the inevitable.
The last possibility I know of is a skirmish in a contested area of the map. This seems to me to be the best use of redem. The aliens can take out a number of marines, survive, and give the who and where of it to their team whether or not they win.
Remember, an onos gone can be just as good as an onos dead.