Fundamental Flaw Of Patching
SoBe_Dragon
Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10465Members
Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10465Members
<div class="IPBDescription">not just ns</div> Through my course of gaming history, the games that I play get patched. Some for good, some for bad. 99% of the time when balancing a game through patches, the developers always seem to take things away from the game rather then adding things to balance the game. Examples:
Jedi Knight 2. To balance this game, they had to adjust the force powers. Instead of making the weaker force powers more powerful, they instead nerfed the ones that were already fine. They also had to remove certain moves from the game because they were deemed "too powerful" its not that the moves were too powerful (dfa, backswipe) its just that the other ones were weak and were never used! The playing field was completely even, its just that the more skilled players that know how to better play the game had to take the loss cause the nubs complained.
Warcraft 3. This game just went over the edge when it came to balancing. Anyone that played the betas knows, the betas were so much better. This was before they changed everything and removed so many aspects of the game. Creeping and experiencing got nerfed, the normal items were removed from the game to be replaced by these god-forsaken unbalanced "scroll of res" items. You get my drift. They removed from the game instead of adding.
Counter-Strike. This game was pretty balanced, but the things they removed made the game tard-land. The removal of strafe jumping and not adding something dumbed the game down. And now what to they do? They ADD shields! Whoa, wait a sec, for once we are ADDING something to a patch and not taking away? Interesting, lets see how that goes.
Natural-Selection. I have been reading up on the new changes for 2.01 and it does not look good my friends. (I can talk more in depthly about this topic cause I play a lot). The dev team obviously knows that aliens win more then marines do to the teamwork factor, and the fact that they are making the changes that they are making shows that. However, here within lies the fundamental flaw. <i>The aliens arent overpowered...the marines are UNDERPOWERED"</i>. Nerfing celerity and getting rid of the warp with movement chambers is NOT going to fix the problem. And what is this about only being able to gestate to new life forms near hives? Another aspect of the game removed. So many things are removed from NS but nothing is brought in to replace it. Jetpacking was a skill...nerfed. Strafe jumping, a nother skill...nerfed. Please keep in mind, <b>the playing field was always 100% balanced</b>, and never tipped to one players side.
Dont look at this from an opinionated point of view. Look at this from an allgebraic point of view. What is mathematically easier to do to an equation? Add? or subtract? To balance the pub game of natural selection the marine team needs some new toys, and some new options. Nothing has to be done to the alien side...thoughts?
Jedi Knight 2. To balance this game, they had to adjust the force powers. Instead of making the weaker force powers more powerful, they instead nerfed the ones that were already fine. They also had to remove certain moves from the game because they were deemed "too powerful" its not that the moves were too powerful (dfa, backswipe) its just that the other ones were weak and were never used! The playing field was completely even, its just that the more skilled players that know how to better play the game had to take the loss cause the nubs complained.
Warcraft 3. This game just went over the edge when it came to balancing. Anyone that played the betas knows, the betas were so much better. This was before they changed everything and removed so many aspects of the game. Creeping and experiencing got nerfed, the normal items were removed from the game to be replaced by these god-forsaken unbalanced "scroll of res" items. You get my drift. They removed from the game instead of adding.
Counter-Strike. This game was pretty balanced, but the things they removed made the game tard-land. The removal of strafe jumping and not adding something dumbed the game down. And now what to they do? They ADD shields! Whoa, wait a sec, for once we are ADDING something to a patch and not taking away? Interesting, lets see how that goes.
Natural-Selection. I have been reading up on the new changes for 2.01 and it does not look good my friends. (I can talk more in depthly about this topic cause I play a lot). The dev team obviously knows that aliens win more then marines do to the teamwork factor, and the fact that they are making the changes that they are making shows that. However, here within lies the fundamental flaw. <i>The aliens arent overpowered...the marines are UNDERPOWERED"</i>. Nerfing celerity and getting rid of the warp with movement chambers is NOT going to fix the problem. And what is this about only being able to gestate to new life forms near hives? Another aspect of the game removed. So many things are removed from NS but nothing is brought in to replace it. Jetpacking was a skill...nerfed. Strafe jumping, a nother skill...nerfed. Please keep in mind, <b>the playing field was always 100% balanced</b>, and never tipped to one players side.
Dont look at this from an opinionated point of view. Look at this from an allgebraic point of view. What is mathematically easier to do to an equation? Add? or subtract? To balance the pub game of natural selection the marine team needs some new toys, and some new options. Nothing has to be done to the alien side...thoughts?
Comments
Maybe, for NS, instead of nerfing redemption, you could add a marine nano-jammer. It would shock nanos in the area and stop 50-75% of redemptions. Just my little idea.
1 Onos should spit up marines when forced to redeem
2 Aliens need a true counter to turret farms OR a cap needs to be placed on numbers of turrets
3 shotty cost might need to be adjusted
4 Either up Obs detection disatence or cut sensory cloak distence
(dont get me wrong, I like having a 22/2 win ratio, But I do it with shotty rushes and Fodder farms)
Other then number 2 these are "soft" nerfs that adjust the game in small ways rather then major class nerfs liek those patches do
Better to make both sides equally overpowered, if you like to look at it that way.
Edit: Ok, that's not the only balance problem. There are a few other minor issues. Onos eating a lvl3/lvl3, HA/HMG then getting redeemed without spitting the guy out comes to mind. etc.
Now, you bring up WC3 as an example of how balancing/nerfing can go wrong. I'll bring up Starcraft as how it can go right... Starcraft had quite a few nerfs early on, and now it's probably the most balanced game ever.
Counterstrike... None of those changes were for balance, they were for dumbing down. To make it retail-friendly, nub-friendly, etc... Good or bad, it's not for balance (CS rarely does things for balance, and those are normally things such as the big fixes after 1.6, and the sniper scope changes, and the AWP Changes). I don't play anymore (not for a very very very long time dating back to when the P90 was a **** weapon), but from what I know of recent changes, they don't sound like attempts to balance AT ALL.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The aliens arent overpowered...the marines are UNDERPOWERED<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lies. It has nothing to do with overpower, underpower, it has to do with tech times, strategy viability, etc... People need to get their head around the fact that not everything is directly related to "power", and also that Flayra is changing things JUST TO SEE. Not because he expects them to be permanent. They're betas, experiments.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Jetpacking was a skill...nerfed. Strafe jumping, a nother skill...nerfed. Please keep in mind, the playing field was always 100% balanced, and never tipped to one players side. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Natural Selection is supposed to place teamwork and cooperation over skill. One ""elite"" jetpacker shouldn't rampage through an entire alien team... They should do better than a normal lad, but not to the extreme point you're referring to.
And anyways, strafe jumping's not gone, I dodge skulks with it all the time. Bunnyhopping, however, is, because it's extra extra non-atmospheric, and made skulks kind of lame.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Look at this from an allgebraic point of view. What is mathematically easier to do to an equation? Add? or subtract?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*rubs hands together with an evil cackle* Okay, first, it's algebraic. Please. Really. It's painful.
Second, they're actually equivalent. Neither is easier or harder, they're interrelated operations to the point where they're merely two sides of the same token.
A better example would be differentiation versus integration... However, it's not a direct application (we're not take the second derivative of Natural Selection). Still, if you think of differentiation as the "subtraction" of calculus, I doubt there's anyone in existence who would tell you integration is easier. That said, I think my point is, aside from the fact that you're example is fundamentally flawed, that don't try to involve very vapid analogies into an otherwise clear picture.
Is it easier to balance a scale by adding a fifty pound rock, or rolling the fifty pound rock from the other side? Not that any of this matters, Flayra is merely shoving tweaks into the mix to see what might work down the road, in a real patch. And if you don't try everything, you'll probably miss something.
Most of these changes are probably not final, they are just tests to analyze gameplay. Flayra has not gone happy with the nerf bat, I have more faith in him than that, and after 2.0, how could you not?
Amen.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have more faith in him than that, and after 2.0, how could you not? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apparently because they believe NS should be a jetpack-whoring, bunnyhopping deathmatch.
People running around pulling other players onto the ground and then doing a back spin and spinning around 5 or so times to do 5x the damage was stupid and unbalanced. Not to mention you had idiots running around backwards with their saber flying around like no body’s business in order to try and get a back swing. Not to mention the horrible swinging DFA. That move was a damn joke. Looked like a freaking helicopter going through the air.
1.02 was horrible. 1.04 is, in my opinion - perfect. There is not one aspect of it I don't like and I'm still playing it after a year or so. Course, I met some awesome people that want to make me come back to it, but the game itself now, is just fine
Light Force forever! <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
If the skulk changes of 2.01a have been removed (I think they have, but I haven't checked), then wouldn't that indicate that Flayra is keeping a close eye on what "works" and what doesn't? I don't think you've got reason to fear.
imo if you add to the power of the weak stuff and degrade by just the ever slightest amount on a powerful weapon you'll get the ballance good. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
IE: 500 dmg weapon? dont increase the other one to 500, instead increase the lower one to a even number and very gently reduce the powerful one to the level where the "weaker" one is (50 vs 150, 100 would be the middle, and thus ballanced)
No, this is just the first derivative. NS 3.0 will be the second derivative of Natural Selection. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's well balanced, but a lot of people left (including me) because it's quite a bit slower than what JO used to be... Not that that's neccessarily a bad thing, more tactical, but 1.4 pace was something quite different from earlier pacing.
I also say JO is the worst case of balancing ever, because it started out with an unbelievably broken heavy DFA, and ended up, after much pain and agony, with virtually the same thing except without rotation, and with just about everything's potency decreased. A lot of work to figure out a fairly simple change.
But who wants a short saber battle anyway? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Somethign similar is true for NS. Bunnyhopping may be a skill, but most of all it's an engine bug due to the way the Quake engine and its derivatives add up movement vectors. Just an unfortunate side effect of a somewhat flawed physics engine. When people start considering that the ultimate skill, something's wrong.
The game makers make the game to the best of thier ability in thier little labs with only a few playtesters that have played games thier whole life as such when it gets into the public domain thier are going to be some issues with the 12 thousand people playing at the same time, also pub players always find ways to hack/exploit better then the game makers ever dreamed of.
Patchs stand as a way to fix the issues with the game in the public domain, CS as one of your examples u said strafe jumping was removed this way to make the game alot more nub-friendly as Spazmatic said at the mo CS has to be one of the most possiblely worst game for new players as they take time to pick thier weapons and by the time they do BANG shot in the head by a guy they cant even see, the AWM as someone said (YES ITS A AWM NOT A SMEGGING AWP !!!!!!!!!!) is a hard weapon to use u have to stop to fire and at close range its useless unless u get a lucky shot, note on DOD/FA the sniper rifles can be fired without a scope with near perfect aim.
NS isent to bad for patchs as they dont come out offen and are mostly server side to fix Massive problems in the games such as Engine siege from start type bug, Now u say everything gets nerf not so true look at SCs? celerity? MCs now have a tiny bit more use aswell HA is now immune to spores and the redep-devour is hugely overpowered.
In short patchs are to fix problems with the game, Cheaters (cant wait for 1.10 goodbye ITHs and OCCY SOJS) YAHOO, or to sort certain balance issues with the game such as JP/HMG in 1.04 with i rather miss i have to say, HA was no longer used as JPs were alot better so... they made HA needed tbh i still prefer JPs to HA anyday even with thier massive nerf great for shotty/JP onos killing.
Patchs stand as a way to fix problems the makers can see altho they then make more issues and bring out more patchs which make even more issues so u need more patchs............why do we need patchs again? someone explain it me? narrr thier just a way to fix issues/problems, see i could of put it in 1 line but i had to write a page worth no wonder i only have 1 post per day lol
Yes it is, kind of. A group of first timers should be able to take down a soloing vet (say, 4 newbie marines and 1 uber skulk). And an onos should be able to take down a light armor vet, at least some of the time (give 'em a shotgun and an appropriately confused onos might lose). The fact is, the game's oriented towards teamwork, not skill, and while them uber clans got skill oozing out of every orifice, their dominant trait is mad teamwork.
Man, I should've seen that...
Umbra nerfs: Turret farms to invincible mode! Now even with umbra, that onos will STILL die/redempt! And it's not like umbra was even used all that much, on pubs anyway(which is all I got). Not everybody has some clan they can run to for high end play. I think this might stay. Maybe not as drastic, but I expect some umbra nerf to stick.
Hive cost: Yea, I too think hives are a bit too cheap. I expected a cost increas. However, I think that the new cost plus the next change on my list may be too much. I agree that hive cost needs to be raised, but just that change alone.
Alien evolve change: What this means is gorges will have to run thier fat little butts to the hive site, instead of being able to evlove right there. Also, you can't always cap a res or put down a sense chamber when you need to if you are a skulk and have just cleared an area. This will really slow down alien res and tech. It also means the return of the permanent gorges, which is what some people have been wanting. If this change sticks, then hives will need more HP and/or the removal of the one-hive-building-at-a-time limit. May or may not stick, I dunno.
HMG damage change: The end all be all weapon has returned! Actually, i don't think this changes much. So what if HMG can't kill buildings fast in the current 2.0? They just kill evertyhing else first so they the nader can do it for them. I say it will stick.
Celerity nerf: Why? Are the big, bad onos still too fast for you? I really have no clue what this is for or what it intends to fix. Probably stick.
It was called arsefighting. Horrifically amusing, though you did get good views of Jan's booteh just before she spun around in circles faster than a druggie on a tireswing and sliced you into so many pieces Emeril would be proud.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the retro CS community should be revived. beta CS > retail <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Booyah, I want the ultra-abusive carbine with scope back! Or, CS' is a carbine version, right? I can't remember anymore, been so long.
Oh oh, and non-clicky pistols, and bunnyhopping awpers, oh boy oh boy oh boy. It'd be like a Brady Bunch reunion, without the sobbing (or maybe with?) It'd be fun just because it'd be like reliving the dream (or nightmare?)
I actually agree with you as well <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I only hope a dev or someone at least takes notice of this <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
"Dark Age of Nerfalot"
seriously, I agree. ADD, do not take away.
i remember reading how the Archer(ranger) type class was very good in the beginning but was slowly nerfed to nothing.
Same thing happened to a few other classes too i think.
doug
There are games out there that DO patch by adding stuff, ONLY.
AC1 went through a huge period (like 3 years) where they refused to directly nerf anything. As a result the intire game got horribly horribly warped, the more they boosted one skill or another the further the game was broke due to...
INFLATION! Different abilities slowly got boosted till everything was far more powerful than was origoinally intended making loads of content obsolete.
Anyway, the problem is this:
Balance problems are caused by theings being too weak and things being too good. Developers must fix balance by nerfing the too good stuff and boosting the too bad stuff..
See?
BlueGhost
Edit> After re-reading your post they aren't 'taking away' stuff they're just chaning it. Jetpacks haven't been 'nerfed' they've been fixed, they just put in proper time based calclations rather than the HORRIBLY broken FPS based calculations.. They fixed some other border line exploits (like broken crouching noise + air acceleration code). Just cos you personally think a bug is a 'feature' as it helps someone who knows the game mechanics gain an edge.. Doesn't make it not a bug.
Edit> After re-reading your post they aren't 'taking away' stuff they're just chaning it. Jetpacks haven't been 'nerfed' they've been fixed, they just put in proper time based calclations rather than the HORRIBLY broken FPS based calculations.. They fixed some other border line exploits (like broken crouching noise + air acceleration code). Just cos you personally think a bug is a 'feature' as it helps someone who knows the game mechanics gain an edge.. Doesn't make it not a bug. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a low FPS player. The 2.0 jetpack gives me more thrust than the 1.04 jetpack. So while the effectiveness of the JP may on average have been reduced (because the comm could just ask who has a high fps and give them permanent flying ability), it really is a bug that was fixed. In 1.04 I usually asked comms not to give me a jetpack, as it was hard for me to use it effectively (depending on the map). In 2.0 I find them easier to use.
In 2.01, they will be forced to evolve to gorge near a hive, then run to the node.... this is a change for the better i feel.
Although I think redemption is a bit broken... I know onos' cost a lot and all, but at the moment on a pub without much marine teamwork, its quite impossible to die...
I agree that adding instead of subtracting is a good idea...
btw Spazmatic, you do realise Differentiation and Intergration, while being the inverse processes of each other, actually come from two quite different schools of math? And adding and subtracting is a better analogy for balance, after all we aren't looking at rate of change here....