<!--QuoteBegin--Tonzak+Aug 4 2003, 11:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tonzak @ Aug 4 2003, 11:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can make the most challenging and complex map to make, yet it can be completely horrible to play NS in, no matter how beautiful it is or how much time it may have taken to get working properly.
Now, I'm not saying that any of the NS maps are even bad, only that we should not mistake time consumption or effort for quality. Just what makes an NS map good and what makes an NS map such a pain to make are two completely different things.
I know it is a challenge to take any concept and make it a professional looking and functioning NS map, but this says nothing about the concept at all. When people criticize a map, they are usually talking about some specific concept, i.e. this hall or this room could be better for this or that, and so on.
these kinds of suggestions are nothing for map makers to get bent ouf of shape about. it's not your fault that it's so much tedious work to get ideas into an HL map. if someone says a room is messed up because of such and such, why do they say that? did you consider it and did you disagree? do you still disagree? if you see nothing wrong with the map, then hey, some people are just going to be wrong, right? and if you agree, then where's the problem? no one is saying that you didn't spend so much time getting your concepts into the HL engine and up to standards. they're just saying that they suspect or believe that changes would make the concept even better, however inconvenient it would be to implement them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tonzak:
KFS isn't saying that the maps that he (and other NS mappers) make shouldn't be flamed just because they have put a huge amount of effort into them, he's saying that if you <b>must</b> criticise, make it <b>constructive</b>. The examples you're talking about ARE constructive criticism. This is what he's saying that he would like, descriptions of <b>what is wrong</b> with the map, what you don't like about it and how this affects the game for you. Not just 'bast sux0rz whoever made that map sux teh azz'.
<!--QuoteBegin--[SuB]+Aug 4 2003, 08:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([SuB] @ Aug 4 2003, 08:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, in an endevour to learn the basics of NS mapping so a few friends and I can work on an NS map that incorporates some ideas we have, I started playing around with the Valve Hammer Editor... I'd seen this in use before, but never actually sat down to do it myself.
With a few helpful pointers from one of my mates who's already created a great dueling map for www.AusNS.org, I managed to create a ready room box and a ready room playing area to spawn into.
Just to create these two basic boxes, texturing them, adding join team entities and the like is a pain in the **** enough, and you're dealing with it all in 3 seperate views from the top, the side and the front all in wireframes and grids.
I can only IMAGINE the hours of tedious work required to make a full blown NS map, especially some of the amazingly atmospheric and intricate ones like ns_bast or ns_hera.
I always had respect for the NS mappers, but dabbling my hand it has made me realise why the creator of ns_bast left the NS dev team at the large amount of map bashing it recieved. Creating something like this is a major feat, and I urge anyone who may have a negative, unconstructive comment about a particular map to keep it to themselves. You're allowed to have these thoughts, but just don't throw the hours of work that the mappers have done for <i>us</i>, the players of this fine mod, back at them.
Try creating one of these marvels yourself <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ns_bast is my all time favorite map, and no map will ever replace it. The guy that made it is a mapping god. My second favorite is Europa, its just beautiful, besides the obvious flaws with it. bast is the best map ever made.
<!--QuoteBegin--BigDXLT+Aug 4 2003, 08:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BigDXLT @ Aug 4 2003, 08:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Remember, the creators of Episode 2 still get paid. <i>They</i> don't care what you say. The guys making anything for THIS ENTIRELY FREE mod DO care and would probably prefer to be given reasons WHY something "sucks". That is incredibly important. How would you like to have your boss just say "You're fired" and give no reason whatsoever? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I doubt Lucas does it for the money anymore. He does it for the glory, but he ain't getting any.
ns_bast got bashed? It was the most immersive map of the original set - it could be used for a single player game, or a game sp or mp about piloting spaceships
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--[A]pe+Aug 4 2003, 09:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([A]pe @ Aug 4 2003, 09:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> KFS isn't saying that the maps that he (and other NS mappers) make shouldn't be flamed just because they have put a huge amount of effort into them, he's saying that if you <b>must</b> criticise, make it <b>constructive</b>. The examples you're talking about ARE constructive criticism. This is what he's saying that he would like, descriptions of <b>what is wrong</b> with the map, what you don't like about it and how this affects the game for you. Not just 'bast sux0rz whoever made that map sux teh azz'. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. Since this thread got brought up again, let me clarify my point.
I don't expect you to like all the maps. In fact, there are quite a few problems with every map for a variety of reasons - if you don't see any, someone else sure does, if only the creator. The thing is, though, we open our ear to the community with the explicit purpose of improving our work so that people gain more enjoyment from it - the value of art, of course, is not set by the artist but by the public that views and appreciates it. The problem here is that we've opened our ears and in doing so are occasionally flooded with "X sucks, Y totally blows, I hate you and your entire family and hope you burn in hell!" So what's the point in even listening anymore? It seems that for every 1 great constructive and well thought-out suggestion, there's practically 18 that are illiterate flame-bait. Why waste our time listening to that?
You want your opinion to be heard, make it worth hearing. You may have the best ideas and suggestions in the world, but if you're a jackass in presenting them, don't expect to be taken seriously. There's -far- too many voices out there to bother wasting our time with you if you're going to be a jerk about it.
This is deliberately phrased to apply to more than just maps.
Mappers, and mod makers in general, are among the absolutely greatest guys on earth. I'm not being ironic. They are putting in hundreds, if not thousands of hours of work, months and years of their lifetime and the very best ideas they can come up with, not getting any reward they can make use of. Other people who are doing work "for nothing" have their own kinds of rewards - authors and musicians can become famous and make money with it later, overall nice guys can make a lot of friends, religious people are looking forward to their own special reward. But mod makers? Everybody here knows the names Flayra and MonsieurEvil, many may know more nicknames of people who made NS or other mods. A few perhaps mailed or PMed them, a very tiny portion may even have thanked them. But be honest - do you know the name of the guy who made Bast? I know I don't. Bast has always been my favourite map, it must have been a hell of a lot of work and I absolutely love this guy for the gift he made to me... but I don't know him at all and he will never receive anything from me for it. Since he left, he won't even hear my praise. There's a great man, people. Whoever he is.
Even the n00biest monkey can tell you that giving maps pissass is one of the toughest challenges out there. These mappers, texturers, and let's not forget the mod makers themselves are giving up days of their lives to make NS fun for *you*.
In return, you've thumbed your nose at them and complained about what they didn't do. More than likely, they'd take your responses to heart if they were phrased halfway decently.
Now let's go to the footage and show you how it's done:
ns_bast Apparently not being updated again. A hell of a lot of work went into the map, incredible visuals, but unfortunately it's pretty unbalanced. It's a little overplayed and tends to lead to a one-dimensional assault on feedwater. Rare to see a marine team make it much further than atmos, let alone go in a different direction.
ns_caged I like it. I've seen victories on both sides and by locking down all combinations of hives (although Vent is a tough one to manage). The double node seems to be equidistant from each hive and marine start so both sides have a relatively equal chance of grabbing it, it usually ends up in marine hands in my games.
ns_eclipse One of the old standbys and a map almost everyone loves. Triad is still damned near impossible to hold half the time but there are a variety of strategies, and marines can definitely win.
ns_hera Another great, but unbalanced map, again weighing heavily on the alien side. On pubs a marine team that can make it to Holo Room is doing pretty well and probably won't make it further. Decent teams have been held to reception. The platform outside makes it very tough for marines to hold marine start effectively and gives rise to cheese tactics. Marines seem unwilling to even attempt heading in the maint direction even when the hive's archiving, so that may be a piece of the puzzle. Still a classic, and still great fun to play.
ns_hydrosity Not in the official lineup, but I had the pleasure of testing it last night. Immense and amazingly detailed for its immensity. Very nice rain effects on the roof. The windows could use some work, the view is pretty blah, but it's nice to see a map that has a lot of windows and tries to create a rain effect. Oodles of welding locations that make sense and are useful. Encourages use of the jetpack. Its size, however, is a disadvantage in that there's no way a player new to the map will be able to find their way around, period. Additionally, aliens can cap res nodes with abandon and marines would be lucky to happen upon them. There are several rooms with no discernible purpose except that they're tacked onto the side of a major room. I have never had the pleasure of playing a game on it, but it would seem to give aliens a strong advantage what with all the vents and small areas. One hive in particular (water handling, I believe?) has raised platforms everywhere that would be perfect for OCs and no sieging location except at the only non-vent entrance. Perhaps with a JP rush something could be done, but again, really hasn't seen much playtime. I'd love to see it actually played on one of the large (10v10) servers to take advantage of its size.
ns_lost A very nice, very underplayed map that's my third favorite new one. The hives are all well constructed and the battle seems to be centered around the Los Paranoias area, which is nicely named. Marines have a res node that they can cap at their leisure outside marine start, which gives them a little kick at the beginning, but expansion in that direction is much harder. I think the name makes people los paranoid.
ns_mineshaft My personal favorite from the new maps. Great, very unique atmosphere (sleeping quarters, cafeteria, and U-turn are all beginning to stand out in my mind). Hives have siege locations that make sense. It's possible for marines to hold the double res without wasting all their time on it. Onos are restricted in their movement but can still usually strike from one direction.
ns_nothing Still good. Honestly haven't played it much in 2.0 (it hasn't been coming up in a lot of rotations), but I've won on both sides.
ns_origin Along with Mineshaft, my favorite of the new maps. Practically overflowing with character (the hives are all very unique and easy to identify), with a vent system that's complicated but not impossible and sensible resource locations. Rooms all have their own little quirks (i.e. laser in laser drilling) that separates them from one another and makes the names make sense. Double nodes can be taken by either side (usually depends on how much effort marines devote to it), and marines get two RTs on either side of their base that gives them an easy grab on the side they're developing on and a relatively easy one on the other side. Onos movement is restricted somewhat by the vents, which is a Good Thing. Biodome is incredible.
ns_tanith One of the best maps out there, the only major problem being that marine start is damn near unassailable during endgame without great coordination on the part of the aliens. Marine teams with a fixation on Reactor Room still have major problems.
ns_veil A nicely balanced map, but it lacks on personality and eye candy. The double nodes are nicely accessible to marines and this is one of the few maps where they are worth the focus they are given. However, it feels like Eclipse 2. This is a pro because it make gamers feel familiar with it (see: the support for it), but a con because it feels like deja vu.
SuBAusNS Forum AdminJoin Date: 2003-02-18Member: 13723Members
<!--QuoteBegin--NSMonkey+Aug 12 2003, 03:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NSMonkey @ Aug 12 2003, 03:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Even the n00biest monkey can tell you that giving maps pissass is one of the toughest challenges out there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> GOLD <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyone who missed Monkey's classic **** take should check out this thread:
Comments
Now, I'm not saying that any of the NS maps are even bad, only that we should not mistake time consumption or effort for quality. Just what makes an NS map good and what makes an NS map such a pain to make are two completely different things.
I know it is a challenge to take any concept and make it a professional looking and functioning NS map, but this says nothing about the concept at all. When people criticize a map, they are usually talking about some specific concept, i.e. this hall or this room could be better for this or that, and so on.
these kinds of suggestions are nothing for map makers to get bent ouf of shape about. it's not your fault that it's so much tedious work to get ideas into an HL map. if someone says a room is messed up because of such and such, why do they say that? did you consider it and did you disagree? do you still disagree? if you see nothing wrong with the map, then hey, some people are just going to be wrong, right? and if you agree, then where's the problem? no one is saying that you didn't spend so much time getting your concepts into the HL engine and up to standards. they're just saying that they suspect or believe that changes would make the concept even better, however inconvenient it would be to implement them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tonzak:
KFS isn't saying that the maps that he (and other NS mappers) make shouldn't be flamed just because they have put a huge amount of effort into them, he's saying that if you <b>must</b> criticise, make it <b>constructive</b>. The examples you're talking about ARE constructive criticism. This is what he's saying that he would like, descriptions of <b>what is wrong</b> with the map, what you don't like about it and how this affects the game for you. Not just 'bast sux0rz whoever made that map sux teh azz'.
With a few helpful pointers from one of my mates who's already created a great dueling map for www.AusNS.org, I managed to create a ready room box and a ready room playing area to spawn into.
Just to create these two basic boxes, texturing them, adding join team entities and the like is a pain in the **** enough, and you're dealing with it all in 3 seperate views from the top, the side and the front all in wireframes and grids.
I can only IMAGINE the hours of tedious work required to make a full blown NS map, especially some of the amazingly atmospheric and intricate ones like ns_bast or ns_hera.
I always had respect for the NS mappers, but dabbling my hand it has made me realise why the creator of ns_bast left the NS dev team at the large amount of map bashing it recieved. Creating something like this is a major feat, and I urge anyone who may have a negative, unconstructive comment about a particular map to keep it to themselves. You're allowed to have these thoughts, but just don't throw the hours of work that the mappers have done for <i>us</i>, the players of this fine mod, back at them.
Try creating one of these marvels yourself <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns_bast is my all time favorite map, and no map will ever replace it. The guy that made it is a mapping god. My second favorite is Europa, its just beautiful, besides the obvious flaws with it. bast is the best map ever made.
The guys making anything for THIS ENTIRELY FREE mod DO care and would probably prefer to be given reasons WHY something "sucks". That is incredibly important. How would you like to have your boss just say "You're fired" and give no reason whatsoever? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt Lucas does it for the money anymore. He does it for the glory, but he ain't getting any.
Exactly. Since this thread got brought up again, let me clarify my point.
I don't expect you to like all the maps. In fact, there are quite a few problems with every map for a variety of reasons - if you don't see any, someone else sure does, if only the creator. The thing is, though, we open our ear to the community with the explicit purpose of improving our work so that people gain more enjoyment from it - the value of art, of course, is not set by the artist but by the public that views and appreciates it. The problem here is that we've opened our ears and in doing so are occasionally flooded with "X sucks, Y totally blows, I hate you and your entire family and hope you burn in hell!" So what's the point in even listening anymore? It seems that for every 1 great constructive and well thought-out suggestion, there's practically 18 that are illiterate flame-bait. Why waste our time listening to that?
You want your opinion to be heard, make it worth hearing. You may have the best ideas and suggestions in the world, but if you're a jackass in presenting them, don't expect to be taken seriously. There's -far- too many voices out there to bother wasting our time with you if you're going to be a jerk about it.
This is deliberately phrased to apply to more than just maps.
With 2.0, it seems it only brought complete idiots. Lets hope they grow a brain.
Everybody here knows the names Flayra and MonsieurEvil, many may know more nicknames of people who made NS or other mods. A few perhaps mailed or PMed them, a very tiny portion may even have thanked them. But be honest - do you know the name of the guy who made Bast? I know I don't. Bast has always been my favourite map, it must have been a hell of a lot of work and I absolutely love this guy for the gift he made to me... but I don't know him at all and he will never receive anything from me for it. Since he left, he won't even hear my praise. There's a great man, people. Whoever he is.
In return, you've thumbed your nose at them and complained about what they didn't do. More than likely, they'd take your responses to heart if they were phrased halfway decently.
Now let's go to the footage and show you how it's done:
ns_bast
Apparently not being updated again. A hell of a lot of work went into the map, incredible visuals, but unfortunately it's pretty unbalanced. It's a little overplayed and tends to lead to a one-dimensional assault on feedwater. Rare to see a marine team make it much further than atmos, let alone go in a different direction.
ns_caged
I like it. I've seen victories on both sides and by locking down all combinations of hives (although Vent is a tough one to manage). The double node seems to be equidistant from each hive and marine start so both sides have a relatively equal chance of grabbing it, it usually ends up in marine hands in my games.
ns_eclipse
One of the old standbys and a map almost everyone loves. Triad is still damned near impossible to hold half the time but there are a variety of strategies, and marines can definitely win.
ns_hera
Another great, but unbalanced map, again weighing heavily on the alien side. On pubs a marine team that can make it to Holo Room is doing pretty well and probably won't make it further. Decent teams have been held to reception. The platform outside makes it very tough for marines to hold marine start effectively and gives rise to cheese tactics. Marines seem unwilling to even attempt heading in the maint direction even when the hive's archiving, so that may be a piece of the puzzle. Still a classic, and still great fun to play.
ns_hydrosity
Not in the official lineup, but I had the pleasure of testing it last night. Immense and amazingly detailed for its immensity. Very nice rain effects on the roof. The windows could use some work, the view is pretty blah, but it's nice to see a map that has a lot of windows and tries to create a rain effect. Oodles of welding locations that make sense and are useful. Encourages use of the jetpack. Its size, however, is a disadvantage in that there's no way a player new to the map will be able to find their way around, period. Additionally, aliens can cap res nodes with abandon and marines would be lucky to happen upon them. There are several rooms with no discernible purpose except that they're tacked onto the side of a major room. I have never had the pleasure of playing a game on it, but it would seem to give aliens a strong advantage what with all the vents and small areas. One hive in particular (water handling, I believe?) has raised platforms everywhere that would be perfect for OCs and no sieging location except at the only non-vent entrance. Perhaps with a JP rush something could be done, but again, really hasn't seen much playtime. I'd love to see it actually played on one of the large (10v10) servers to take advantage of its size.
ns_lost
A very nice, very underplayed map that's my third favorite new one. The hives are all well constructed and the battle seems to be centered around the Los Paranoias area, which is nicely named. Marines have a res node that they can cap at their leisure outside marine start, which gives them a little kick at the beginning, but expansion in that direction is much harder. I think the name makes people los paranoid.
ns_mineshaft
My personal favorite from the new maps. Great, very unique atmosphere (sleeping quarters, cafeteria, and U-turn are all beginning to stand out in my mind). Hives have siege locations that make sense. It's possible for marines to hold the double res without wasting all their time on it. Onos are restricted in their movement but can still usually strike from one direction.
ns_nothing
Still good. Honestly haven't played it much in 2.0 (it hasn't been coming up in a lot of rotations), but I've won on both sides.
ns_origin
Along with Mineshaft, my favorite of the new maps. Practically overflowing with character (the hives are all very unique and easy to identify), with a vent system that's complicated but not impossible and sensible resource locations. Rooms all have their own little quirks (i.e. laser in laser drilling) that separates them from one another and makes the names make sense. Double nodes can be taken by either side (usually depends on how much effort marines devote to it), and marines get two RTs on either side of their base that gives them an easy grab on the side they're developing on and a relatively easy one on the other side. Onos movement is restricted somewhat by the vents, which is a Good Thing. Biodome is incredible.
ns_tanith
One of the best maps out there, the only major problem being that marine start is damn near unassailable during endgame without great coordination on the part of the aliens. Marine teams with a fixation on Reactor Room still have major problems.
ns_veil
A nicely balanced map, but it lacks on personality and eye candy. The double nodes are nicely accessible to marines and this is one of the few maps where they are worth the focus they are given. However, it feels like Eclipse 2. This is a pro because it make gamers feel familiar with it (see: the support for it), but a con because it feels like deja vu.
GOLD <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyone who missed Monkey's classic **** take should check out this thread:
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=42166' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=1&t=42166</a>
Hahaha... you're a funny **** Monkey <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->