Another thing you can do is get the spot on the map that gets the most alien trafic from hive to hive and lock it down, you're sure to a tiny res farm there, it's been done before.
The point is that you don't need base defence or electrified nodes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't add in the price of electrified nodes (pull out a calculator if you don't believe me). But what if the aliens rush your main base. You're screwed because your marines are elsewhere. What if they all rush one node? This strategy is only going to work on pacifist aliens.
Without a TF at base, then the strategy costs you 380 res, still FAR more than you have on 3 nodes.
You don't have a leg to stand on with this, mathematics shows: You're dead wrong.
Incidently, you need another 100 res to make this strategy work. On 3 nodes, that is another 100/3*5/60=2.8 minutes.
So at BEST, OPTIMAL conditions, NO MEDSPAM no anything, we have 7.8 minutes MINIMUM to do this on 3 nodes. As I said, I disbelieve!
And remember, I've assumed 3 res points right from the very opening second of the game. I haven't considered the fact you DON'T have 3 res points right away, which compensates for R4K and maybe a fourth res node (for a time).
Speed2Dave: New record is 2:41 (by Spectre again). It died though (maybe we shouldn't have been all talking to the marines about it...). Earliest started to stay alive is 2:48. Earliest started 3:d hive is somewhere around the 7 minute mark but can of course be cut substantially (6 would be very reasonable).
Mr.Pink: Stop. You are embarrasing yourself. If you were smart you would just say "Well I exaggerated the numbers, what I am saying is that you can get it pretty quick." You're just digging your hole much deeper by sticking to your made up story, especially since it is so blatantly false.
Well, umm, since he is saying that it can be done in game, why not just start a game and try it out for yourself instead of taking all that time to do the math and say it's impossible. Sure it'd require the most IDEAL conditions, but a few seconds or 1 or 2 minutes past the 5 minute mark isn't a big deal and having 5 HA/Shottie in that time would devastate the alien team. You don't even have to have marines being static defense for res nodes, one welder and a whole marine team headed for those few skulks chomping on the RT or main base would take care of everything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mr.Pink: Stop. You are embarrasing yourself. If you were smart you would just say "Well I exaggerated the numbers, what I am saying is that you can get it pretty quick." You're just digging your hole much deeper by sticking to your made up story, especially since it is so blatantly false. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He could always post the math or give me something more to work with. However, I'm going to assume, even in an 8vs8, that if he can get 5 nodes, have no electrify and defend ALL of them with 2/1 marine(s) each, then they are playing against the dumbest aliens I've ever seen. There is no way a marine team of <10 players can hold 5 nodes and their base with NO turrets/electrification at all.
No way am I going to believe that unless I see some proper maths. The most embarassing part really is a playtester thinks this can occur <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> That disturbs me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, umm, since he is saying that it can be done in game, why not just start a game and try it out for yourself instead of taking all that time to do the math and say it's impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maths=fact. You can't argue with maths, it really is that simple. We could spend all day having a peeing competition of "I saw it done 1,000,000 times" vs "I tried it 1,000,000 times and it didn't work". That maths PROVES INSTANTLY, they are full of crap/playing idiotic alien teams.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sure it'd require the most IDEAL<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly.
Let us assume 2 res nodes in 30 seconds and another 2 in 1:00 for a total of 5 res nodes against the thickest alien team ever devised.
In 30 seconds the first res node produces 30/5*1=15 res. In the next 30 seconds they have 30/5*3=45 res. After 1 minute, for the next 4 minutes they get 240/5*5=240 res. <i>Edit: Whoops, hahaha, brain fart</i>.
The cost for this is an additional 80 res (so it is 460 res). This time it is a possible strategy, probably coming in the 6th minute. They have 240+15+45+100=400 res, not far off the required 480 odds now.
However this is against a *completely* thick alien team. I mean completely idiotic, they never move out of their hives, they just sit around doing nothing, never attack the undefended/unelectrified res nodes (or rush them, of which 2 marines will be no match for skulks). No medspam, no guns need to be handed out etc etc etc. In short, this would NEVER EVER occur except to the dumbest of alien teams. *NEVER*
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->conditions, but a few seconds or 1 or 2 minutes past the 5 minute mark isn't a big deal<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually it is, have you read a thing I've wrote?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and having 5 HA/Shottie in that time would devastate the alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except it would A: Never happen, and the aliens have also teched.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You don't even have to have marines being static defense for res nodes, one welder and a <b>whole marine team</b> headed for those <b>few skulks chomping on the RT</b> or main base would take care of everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny that, how do you defend the other res nodes away from your base. Magic? No obs in this, no phase gates by my numbers (I tried to keep things as cheap as possible), no electrification according to the original poster who claimed this was possible. How do they stop aliens at TWO different locations? Wait, what is that, they can't? Thought so.
And now you're handing out welders too, that adds to the cost and delays getting extra res points as well.
If you cannot see that this strategy is utterly idealised and doesn't work, ACCORDING TO MATHS, you quite simply are deluded :/
Don't you guys have anything better to do than flame over the accuracy of a single(now edited) sentence in the original post <b>ESTIMATING</b> how long it takes to get HA/Shotties? The point was that an experienced comm who knows how to preserve his res can bring out the HAs much faster than pubs usually do. Relax.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't you guys have anything better to do than flame over the accuracy of a single(now edited) sentence in the original post <b>ESTIMATING</b> how long it takes to get HA/Shotties? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it is utterly ridiculous, defeats his initial posts points ANYWAY and doesn't beat alien tier 2 tech which occurs much faster.
A hive in 2:48 minutes is NOT comparable to HA at 7 or 8 minutes. AT ALL.
This is even assuming a massively idealised situation!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The point was that an experienced comm who knows how to preserve his res can bring out the HAs much faster than pubs usually do. Relax.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has no point and is almost a completely redundant statement. It's like saying that an experienced mechanic can repair a fault he's seen hundreds of times faster than a recently trained one. It is self obvious. The point is this has no merit what so ever as a strategy (IE rush) because it won't work on anything but a dumb alien team.
Well if the original poster hadn't decided to stick to his made up story it wouldn't have been such a big deal <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
So the new meaning is "Getting HA fast is good"? Yeah, ok, I can agree with that. The opposite sure doesn't seem very attractive compared to it. By the way, did anyone factor in that you need an amrslab to build the proto?
If this were to have *any* meaning at all however you would have to put it up against something and make a statement like "Don't build defenses, get HA asap!". As it stands now, it's either false or just a platitude.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So the new meaning is "Getting HA fast is good"? Yeah, ok, I can agree with that. The opposite sure doesn't seem very attractive compared to it. By the way, did anyone factor in that you need an amrslab to build the proto?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I knew I forgot something. I thought to myself, I've covered everything now, and missed that :/ Sigh. That makes the cost (on 5 res nodes from above) over 500 res.
Sorry to say, you aren't doing that in lower than 7 minutes. I'd guess 10.
By that time the aliens can have 3 hives and all chambers...
BTW Sirus, what kind of aliens are you playing where you get sufficient res points (I'm guessing 6 or 7 here) and enough R4K to get HA/Shotgun in 5 minutes [505 res]? I'd love to know.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I believe it's us who have attempted and succeeded whilst it is you who has not attempted.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's me who has provided the evidence it can't work, the cold hard mathematical facts, I suggest it is you who tells me how it CAN work.
Mathematics breakdown summary pt II (just so everyone can see where we are).
Total cost of rush for 3 res nodes=<b>420</b> resources. 20 res per HA 10 res per Shotgun 5 res per welder. 5 players to the above=35*5=<b>175</b> res.
Buildings 2 additional res towers=40 res 1 IP=20 res 1 armory=20 res Upgrade=35 res 1 arms lab=25 res Protolab=40 res Upgrade HA=40 res Total=<b>220</b> res
Total cost of rush (defending additional 2 res nodes)=<b>395</b> resources.
Total resources produced (assuming insta 3 res nodes)=1 res every 5 seconds.
Therefore: To get 295 required is ((Resources needed x time for 1 res) / 3 number of res nodes) / 60 (minute) ((295 x 5) / 3 )/60=<b>8.2 minutes approximately+build times</b> (ideal conditions).
At 5 res nodes:
Total cost of rush=395 res + 40=<b>435</b> res
Need 335 res (same formula) ((335x5)/5)/60=<b>5.58 minutes approximately+build times</b>.
In short, can this happen in 5 minutes? One word answer, <b>BOLLOCKS</b>.
[Note, no turret defence has been assumed now, so the numbers look different].
A final addition: I just did this (on a server, with people) and teched up in precisely 6:30 with 5 res nodes. Essentially proving the mathematics were right. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Against an alien team that doesn't attack or wipe your res nodes out over the entire time, it is very easy to do this. In a real situation with a decent alien team, this would be impossible.
Comments
The point is that you don't need base defence or electrified nodes.
The point is that you don't need base defence or electrified nodes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't add in the price of electrified nodes (pull out a calculator if you don't believe me). But what if the aliens rush your main base. You're screwed because your marines are elsewhere. What if they all rush one node? This strategy is only going to work on pacifist aliens.
Without a TF at base, then the strategy costs you 380 res, still FAR more than you have on 3 nodes.
You don't have a leg to stand on with this, mathematics shows: You're dead wrong.
Incidently, you need another 100 res to make this strategy work. On 3 nodes, that is another 100/3*5/60=2.8 minutes.
So at BEST, OPTIMAL conditions, NO MEDSPAM no anything, we have 7.8 minutes MINIMUM to do this on 3 nodes. As I said, I disbelieve!
And remember, I've assumed 3 res points right from the very opening second of the game. I haven't considered the fact you DON'T have 3 res points right away, which compensates for R4K and maybe a fourth res node (for a time).
Mr.Pink: Stop. You are embarrasing yourself. If you were smart you would just say "Well I exaggerated the numbers, what I am saying is that you can get it pretty quick." You're just digging your hole much deeper by sticking to your made up story, especially since it is so blatantly false.
He could always post the math or give me something more to work with. However, I'm going to assume, even in an 8vs8, that if he can get 5 nodes, have no electrify and defend ALL of them with 2/1 marine(s) each, then they are playing against the dumbest aliens I've ever seen. There is no way a marine team of <10 players can hold 5 nodes and their base with NO turrets/electrification at all.
No way am I going to believe that unless I see some proper maths. The most embarassing part really is a playtester thinks this can occur <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> That disturbs me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, umm, since he is saying that it can be done in game, why not just start a game and try it out for yourself instead of taking all that time to do the math and say it's impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maths=fact. You can't argue with maths, it really is that simple. We could spend all day having a peeing competition of "I saw it done 1,000,000 times" vs "I tried it 1,000,000 times and it didn't work". That maths PROVES INSTANTLY, they are full of crap/playing idiotic alien teams.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sure it'd require the most IDEAL<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly.
Let us assume 2 res nodes in 30 seconds and another 2 in 1:00 for a total of 5 res nodes against the thickest alien team ever devised.
In 30 seconds the first res node produces 30/5*1=15 res. In the next 30 seconds they have 30/5*3=45 res. After 1 minute, for the next 4 minutes they get 240/5*5=240 res. <i>Edit: Whoops, hahaha, brain fart</i>.
The cost for this is an additional 80 res (so it is 460 res). This time it is a possible strategy, probably coming in the 6th minute. They have 240+15+45+100=400 res, not far off the required 480 odds now.
However this is against a *completely* thick alien team. I mean completely idiotic, they never move out of their hives, they just sit around doing nothing, never attack the undefended/unelectrified res nodes (or rush them, of which 2 marines will be no match for skulks). No medspam, no guns need to be handed out etc etc etc. In short, this would NEVER EVER occur except to the dumbest of alien teams. *NEVER*
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->conditions, but a few seconds or 1 or 2 minutes past the 5 minute mark isn't a big deal<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually it is, have you read a thing I've wrote?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and having 5 HA/Shottie in that time would devastate the alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except it would A: Never happen, and the aliens have also teched.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You don't even have to have marines being static defense for res nodes, one welder and a <b>whole marine team</b> headed for those <b>few skulks chomping on the RT</b> or main base would take care of everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny that, how do you defend the other res nodes away from your base. Magic? No obs in this, no phase gates by my numbers (I tried to keep things as cheap as possible), no electrification according to the original poster who claimed this was possible. How do they stop aliens at TWO different locations? Wait, what is that, they can't? Thought so.
And now you're handing out welders too, that adds to the cost and delays getting extra res points as well.
If you cannot see that this strategy is utterly idealised and doesn't work, ACCORDING TO MATHS, you quite simply are deluded :/
Because it is utterly ridiculous, defeats his initial posts points ANYWAY and doesn't beat alien tier 2 tech which occurs much faster.
A hive in 2:48 minutes is NOT comparable to HA at 7 or 8 minutes. AT ALL.
This is even assuming a massively idealised situation!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The point was that an experienced comm who knows how to preserve his res can bring out the HAs much faster than pubs usually do. Relax.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has no point and is almost a completely redundant statement. It's like saying that an experienced mechanic can repair a fault he's seen hundreds of times faster than a recently trained one. It is self obvious. The point is this has no merit what so ever as a strategy (IE rush) because it won't work on anything but a dumb alien team.
Will you read and UNDERSTAND what I wrote?
So the new meaning is "Getting HA fast is good"? Yeah, ok, I can agree with that. The opposite sure doesn't seem very attractive compared to it. By the way, did anyone factor in that you need an amrslab to build the proto?
If this were to have *any* meaning at all however you would have to put it up against something and make a statement like "Don't build defenses, get HA asap!". As it stands now, it's either false or just a platitude.
I knew I forgot something. I thought to myself, I've covered everything now, and missed that :/ Sigh. That makes the cost (on 5 res nodes from above) over 500 res.
Sorry to say, you aren't doing that in lower than 7 minutes. I'd guess 10.
By that time the aliens can have 3 hives and all chambers...
BTW Sirus, what kind of aliens are you playing where you get sufficient res points (I'm guessing 6 or 7 here) and enough R4K to get HA/Shotgun in 5 minutes [505 res]? I'd love to know.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I believe it's us who have attempted and succeeded whilst it is you who has not attempted.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's me who has provided the evidence it can't work, the cold hard mathematical facts, I suggest it is you who tells me how it CAN work.
Mathematics breakdown summary pt II (just so everyone can see where we are).
Total cost of rush for 3 res nodes=<b>420</b> resources.
20 res per HA
10 res per Shotgun
5 res per welder.
5 players to the above=35*5=<b>175</b> res.
Buildings
2 additional res towers=40 res
1 IP=20 res
1 armory=20 res
Upgrade=35 res
1 arms lab=25 res
Protolab=40 res
Upgrade HA=40 res
Total=<b>220</b> res
Total cost of rush (defending additional 2 res nodes)=<b>395</b> resources.
Total resources produced (assuming insta 3 res nodes)=1 res every 5 seconds.
Therefore: To get 295 required is ((Resources needed x time for 1 res) / 3 number of res nodes) / 60 (minute)
((295 x 5) / 3 )/60=<b>8.2 minutes approximately+build times</b> (ideal conditions).
At 5 res nodes:
Total cost of rush=395 res + 40=<b>435</b> res
Need 335 res (same formula)
((335x5)/5)/60=<b>5.58 minutes approximately+build times</b>.
In short, can this happen in 5 minutes? One word answer, <b>BOLLOCKS</b>.
[Note, no turret defence has been assumed now, so the numbers look different].
A final addition: I just did this (on a server, with people) and teched up in precisely 6:30 with 5 res nodes. Essentially proving the mathematics were right. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Against an alien team that doesn't attack or wipe your res nodes out over the entire time, it is very easy to do this. In a real situation with a decent alien team, this would be impossible.