Why Ns2.0 Is Unbalanced

th0r0n · August 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">It's simple</div> In 2.0 getting 3 hives as alien is very possible, this triples what the marine team has to do in order to end the game, whereas usually the aliens only have to destroy one.

I mean in most pubs, what marine team could pull off the destruction of THREE hives?

lagger · August 2003

Umm.... I think there is alot more that needs balancing.. then just that... and even then its not a huge balance issue about how many hives compared to comm chairs the marines possesse.

th0r0n · August 2003

Sure it is, what's harder to destroy? One enemy base or 3?

Monkeybonk · August 2003

Well, he has a point: In many alien games where we're getting our **** beat, we just rush the empty marine base and waste the CC. GG marines.

Esp. true on lost. I repeatedly just threw my fade into the CC pit and eventually destroyed it. We had 1 hive... they had HA HMG. I told them the CC was down and our morale soared and whenever we wasted one HA, that was one HA that was never coming back...

SoulSkorpion · August 2003

You're assuming it's as hard to destroy hives as in 1.04, which is incorrect. Your reasoning is flawed.

Quaunaut · August 2003

Well, thats why 2.01b(or c) is trying out hives at res amount 50. THAT is the real problem. The hives are just plain too cheap. I personally believe that the hive amount should be 65, to even things truly.

Hypergrip · August 2003

I've seen lots HA-Trains marching from hive to hive killing everything on their way.
I've seen lots of successful hive lockdowns.
I've seen Marines comming back after 3 hives.
Just don't play sitting duck in the Marine Base...

There are things that have to be balanced more, noone questiones that, but 3 Hive Aliens ARE beatable unless you are too far behind with your tech or are simply outskilled most of the round.
In both cases it's only correct the Aliens win.

3 Hive also do not automatically tripple the work you have to do to win the round.
It makes it harder, but defending three hives requires a lot more resources and manpower... so if you simply ask "what's harder to destroy: One base or three?" the answer is: One. Because the whole enemy defence capacities are combined there.
Also noone hinders the Marines to build a second base anywhere on the map (ok, the Aliens hinder them, but I mean technically.. like game restrictions).

th0r0n · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You're assuming it's as hard to destroy hives as in 1.04, which is incorrect. Your reasoning is flawed. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

What does a hive have now? 5000HP as opposed to 6000?

RaVe · August 2003

hives have way lower health than before

hives drop like flies to the might of teh almight bewmstick.Also qualified to castrate any nubcaek you see fit.

It's just the aliens individual res comes in quickly with....but we know that aiens will have to fight as they have individual res pools....and RFK is needed for aliens,or they'll be severely crippled

lagger · August 2003

Jesus, hives cost 35 + gorg evolution costing 10. If your soo into how many bases each side possess's you can also put down another cc/ip in a different location for 25+20 = 45 same as a hive and there you go. In early game aliens do not have 3 hives, so you dont have to worry about it, and marines also have 1 location so early skulk rush's are also compensated by early marine rush's.

Personally, I find it a disadvantage aliens need to have three bases while marines only need to have one. It forces aliens to secure key locations that marines can defend to cut out tech of the opposing team. Aliens have no way to cut out tech of the marine team because they only need one location to tech fully. There are disadvantages to your so called three base advantage.

Ps: VERY RARELY to marine teams only have one base. I mean, are you trying to tell me the marines will never expand and defend another rsr node/base?<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'> Your telling me you have never seen turret farms in an opposing alien hive?!?

Jaml · August 2003

The only reason because aliens win is cause the marines are unable to hold their nodes in the early game. Turrets cost too much and elec. is useless once the first fade shows up. So marines generally are stuck with 1-2 res the entire game unable to tech and therefore never reaching a tech level where they can compete with an early fade or onos. In my opinion elec should do massive damage to any alien that uses a melee attack against it. Make it do % damage. each zap subtracts 25% of the aliens health and only be able to attack 1 alien. This would force the use of ranged attacks on elec. nodes like bile bomb, acid rockets, spikes or a coordinated attack of more than 1 alien to bring the node down. This would allow the marines to expand early on till 2. hive is up and gain the needed res to tech as fast as the aliens.

Ollj · August 2003

rthis argumentation is as stupid as saying aliens win because their RT cost 5 res less.

kittycat · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The only reason because aliens win is cause the marines are unable to hold their nodes in the early game. Turrets cost too much and elec. is useless once the first fade shows up. So marines generally are stuck with 1-2 res the entire game unable to tech and therefore never reaching a tech level where they can compete with an early fade or onos. In my opinion elec should do massive damage to any alien that uses a melee attack against it.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

1tf
3 sentries

and 1 marine with a LMG can hold off any fade. the sentries are not very dangerous for fades but that marine will scare them off because fades are very scared of getting shot and wasting 50 res.

lagger · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Aug 15 2003, 08:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> rthis argumentation is as stupid as saying aliens win because their RT cost 5 res less. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
thats actually not a bad reason <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>. Although I wouldnt say its the root of most unbalances *cough cough rfk cough hive cost cough cough*

coil · August 2003

Another way to look at it:

The reason 2.0 is imbalanced is because the aliens have to defend THREE bases, but the marines only have to defend one!

Spin is everything. It's very easy to destroy an alien hive with a competent attack, and attacks are easier to orchestrate when you have a commander giving instructions. Marines can get phase gate tech if they have the RPs, while aliens must get Movement Chambers instead of another if they wish to move quickly between bases, and even then can *only* move between hives while the marines can go anywhere the commander drops a phase gate.

Another counter-argument: Hives take a while to go up and cannot be hurried, while a marine base goes up as fast as the marines can build it. A CC and IP (the marine Hive-equivalent) can be built for 45 RPs (the cost of a Gorge and Hive). Combine that with a smaller to-hit area, the ability to place it ANYWHERE (including "hidden" areas), and twice as much health. Now combine that with the fact that marines have a centralized resource system, so acquiring 45 RPs is much easier for a commander than for a single alien. Defending the investment only costs the marines 20RPs more than it would cost aliens (turrets = OCs, but a turret factory is required), and turrets are more effective because they are shooting at primarily melee enemies, while marines can attack OCs from afar.

So the marines can move between areas more easily, set up a Hive-equivalent ANYWHERE for the same cost, and set up more effective defenses for slightly more RPs. Their centralized resource system makes this much easier to do, and yet it is not even a required activity, while aliens are much less combat-effective if they do not expend the RPs and time to build and hold multiple bases.

Now who's getting the short end of the stick?

EighteenTwelve · August 2003

Counter to that: More Hives mean more abilities. More marine bases dont.

coil · August 2003

True. But marines don't even *need* to build multiple bases, so the expenditure is really only theoretical. That's 45 RPs (90, if the aliens build all 3 hives) that could be spent elsewhere - outfitting 4 shotty/HAs, for instance.

ZiGGY · August 2003

I dont understand thorons reasoning. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

Emanon · August 2003

The game, In my opinion is perfectly Even, Look at what everyone is saying. If someone says one thing someone else says something to counter it, why dont people think like this ingame.

NS2.0 Comes down to THIS and ONLY THIS, Which TEAM has the better PLAN, Organization and Execution.

Dont <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'> *** on something untill you see what it is.

209.19.57.56:27017 <<< play here we recently went to a public server, PLay 2 days here and tell me what you think about 2.0

tankefugl · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Aug 15 2003, 03:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Now who's getting the short end of the stick?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Oh! I know the answer to this one!

"The turret-farming turtling paranoid and scared marines."

Seems like they just fail to realize that hives -are- paper-thin. 3 marines took down one hive in 2-3 seconds yesterday. Now, imagine two attacks at two hives at the same time. One of them is bound to succeed.

Jabba_The_Hunt · August 2003

The biggest problem I see with 2.0 is that the aliens can get resources so much quicker than the marines, however the marines can hold off attack after attack after attack so you get a very long drawn out end game.

tankefugl · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jabba The Hunt @ Aug 15 2003, 04:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The biggest problem I see with 2.0 is that the aliens can get resources so much quicker than the marines, however the marines can hold off attack after attack after attack so you get a very long drawn out end game.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Aha, the marines can hold off attack after attack? Then why can't they defend a forward position instead of that last hive or marine start? Why, yes they can!

WarZer0 · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Aug 15 2003, 03:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Another way to look at it:

The reason 2.0 is imbalanced is because the aliens have to defend THREE bases, but the marines only have to defend one!

Spin is everything. It's very easy to destroy an alien hive with a competent attack, and attacks are easier to orchestrate when you have a commander giving instructions. Marines can get phase gate tech if they have the RPs, while aliens must get Movement Chambers instead of another if they wish to move quickly between bases, and even then can *only* move between hives while the marines can go anywhere the commander drops a phase gate.

Another counter-argument: Hives take a while to go up and cannot be hurried, while a marine base goes up as fast as the marines can build it. A CC and IP (the marine Hive-equivalent) can be built for 45 RPs (the cost of a Gorge and Hive). Combine that with a smaller to-hit area, the ability to place it ANYWHERE (including "hidden" areas), and twice as much health. Now combine that with the fact that marines have a centralized resource system, so acquiring 45 RPs is much easier for a commander than for a single alien. Defending the investment only costs the marines 20RPs more than it would cost aliens (turrets = OCs, but a turret factory is required), and turrets are more effective because they are shooting at primarily melee enemies, while marines can attack OCs from afar.

So the marines can move between areas more easily, set up a Hive-equivalent ANYWHERE for the same cost, and set up more effective defenses for slightly more RPs. Their centralized resource system makes this much easier to do, and yet it is not even a required activity, while aliens are much less combat-effective if they do not expend the RPs and time to build and hold multiple bases.

Now who's getting the short end of the stick?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Counter point: One skulk can take down the IP in about 10 seconds flat, by himself, with no upgrades. The marines that pop out usually need a second to orient themselves and in that second a skulk can position himself behind the marine and get the bites needed to take down the marine and get back to chomping away at the IP. Once it's gone then the comm usually has to recycle the chair or risk loosing all the res put into the mini base. Trust me, I've taken down multiple IP by myself and the marines that spawned with them. No upgrades or anything. And the marines were actually half decent, they aimed, just that they sprayed their bullets a lot. The comm popped out and I even got him.

By the time thier friend came back, all thier IPs were down. One skulk. They managed to rebuild after what was said and down, but it took time, resources, and it pulled marines away from what they could've been doing.

BlackMage · August 2003

the REAL balance issue is the players. newbies are told to go marines, most newbies come from cs, cs'rs place more value on life, ammo, and frags then the team. if the rines have a competent, sacrificial team then they can realize there true power. especially in the betas where the only stick is the nerf bat and the aliens got the <b>BIG</b> end. all you need to do is point the individuallistic-already-cs'rs to the individuallistic aliens and BOOM marine pwnage

Testament · August 2003

In my opinion 2.0 is the most balanced version of NS yet. People just blame lack of skill and tactics on the game. I dislike the changes for 2.01B/C. Everything for the Marines eems dirt cheap.

monkeymaster · August 2003

cbf reading another stupid Unbalanced/EXPLOIT thread. so ill say 1 thing.

SHUTUP AND JUST PLAY! IF YOUR A CRAP MARINE THEN YOU WILL LSOE AS MARINE! IF YOUR A CRAP ALIEN THEN YOU WILL LOSE AS ALIEN.

cant the admins stop these bloody unbalanced threads or something! its stupid!..

the bloody ns team put heeps of work into this mod. so how bout make a post saying *ns2.0 and why its gooD!* ...

words of wisdom from Arnald Swartsneger : STOP WHINING!

ZiGGY · August 2003

and then you went and spoiled it all by saying something stupid like I love abYOUse. The lock wont be far will it? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

th0r0n · August 2003

Just played a game on Origin (?), I asked the comm if he could build a comm chair at the 3 locations where we have a prescence, and then linked them up with pg's.

Totally pwned aliens <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

SinSpawn · August 2003

2.0 isn't unbalanced, don't blame the game, blame the useless players

coil · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (th0r0n^ @ Aug 15 2003, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Just played a game on Origin (?), I asked the comm if he could build a comm chair at the 3 locations where we have a prescence, and then linked them up with pg's.

Totally pwned aliens <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Fantastic. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

KeitaroSempai · August 2003

Played a game earlier (forgot which map). I was on a suicide mission to destroy 3 hives with 1 other light marine (I was a light marine myself) and 1 HA. Our base went down and it was only the 3 of us left. We were armed with 1 welder, a half empty hmg, and 1 clip-worth of lmg rounds. Miraculously, we destroyed a hive and survived to make to the 2nd, but we got killed there.

I believe that skill is just as important as teamwork. NS 2.01b is as balanced as I could have ever imagined.

Why Ns2.0 Is Unbalanced

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