Commander Tactic
Nefilim
Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19222Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19222Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">HA isn't what it's cracked up to be</div> I've only commed in one major game and a bunch of minor ones, but I've been paying particular attention to commanding methods of "good comms" and "bad comms" since the release of 2.0. I've been hoping to devise some new tactics for 'rines
Anyway, in a game I just commed, 'rines started at a terribly slow start. It was 22-players and no one wanted to command. Sure, we had an IP and a armory up, but we spent a good two minutes dawdling around, pooling up res, while aliens were plopping down RTs all over the place. We had just re-taken reactor room and SatComm when the game ended due to the teams being uneven (8v12 I think it was), but Marines had 127pts and aliens were at 133pts. I thought I did pretty good, and asked the guys how my comming was anyway: their only complaint was that I didn't get HA in.
I spent a majority of my res building up TFs/phase gates at every location we took, dropping a few shotties and welders, as well as upgrading to lv3 armor/weapons.
So I was thinking: Now, most comms usually end with a terrible score landslide in the aliens' favor. It wasn't my expert commanding that gave us such a close match, so it had to be the tactic.
Now, think of this: Is HA terribly over-rated now? It costs ~50 res to outfit one marine with HA/gun/welder and you always send them out in pairs. That's about 100 res right there, or a TF, plenty of turrets, and a phase gate.
Then, consider what two HA's with welders actually accomplish. One of them will get devoured by an onos, then redeem to the second HA's shots. There goes 50 res. Now my HA is alone without a welder buddy, and finally succumbs to some other aliens. Boom, 100 res down the drain.
On the other hand, I could outfit four marines with a shotgun, one with a grenade launcher, and lay three packs of mines with 5 medpacks to spare. This group could take a laxly defended hive (which is almost always the starting hive) and mine the place up. I don't know why mines are so underestimated - they're Onos stoppers and fades can't blast them down without the third hive.
Alternatively, 100 res could easily set up a siege nest. Either way, I think HA should be saved til the very end when you have ~350 res.
So, what do you guys think after reading this? Are heavies a waste of res or am I not seeing the potential of them?
Anyway, in a game I just commed, 'rines started at a terribly slow start. It was 22-players and no one wanted to command. Sure, we had an IP and a armory up, but we spent a good two minutes dawdling around, pooling up res, while aliens were plopping down RTs all over the place. We had just re-taken reactor room and SatComm when the game ended due to the teams being uneven (8v12 I think it was), but Marines had 127pts and aliens were at 133pts. I thought I did pretty good, and asked the guys how my comming was anyway: their only complaint was that I didn't get HA in.
I spent a majority of my res building up TFs/phase gates at every location we took, dropping a few shotties and welders, as well as upgrading to lv3 armor/weapons.
So I was thinking: Now, most comms usually end with a terrible score landslide in the aliens' favor. It wasn't my expert commanding that gave us such a close match, so it had to be the tactic.
Now, think of this: Is HA terribly over-rated now? It costs ~50 res to outfit one marine with HA/gun/welder and you always send them out in pairs. That's about 100 res right there, or a TF, plenty of turrets, and a phase gate.
Then, consider what two HA's with welders actually accomplish. One of them will get devoured by an onos, then redeem to the second HA's shots. There goes 50 res. Now my HA is alone without a welder buddy, and finally succumbs to some other aliens. Boom, 100 res down the drain.
On the other hand, I could outfit four marines with a shotgun, one with a grenade launcher, and lay three packs of mines with 5 medpacks to spare. This group could take a laxly defended hive (which is almost always the starting hive) and mine the place up. I don't know why mines are so underestimated - they're Onos stoppers and fades can't blast them down without the third hive.
Alternatively, 100 res could easily set up a siege nest. Either way, I think HA should be saved til the very end when you have ~350 res.
So, what do you guys think after reading this? Are heavies a waste of res or am I not seeing the potential of them?
Comments
I think shotguns are awesome, I never liked them till 2.0. I gave myself a shotty in a game the day before yesturday and killed the 3 onos attacking our base. (Gave myself shotty cause the comm jumped out to defend, also note everyone was doing damage with lmgs).
At any rate shottys are awesome vs onos and a perfect counter, I think. Also its no where near as expensive plus you can move quicker. Throw a jetpack in for a skilled jper and ouch.
Plus with your method you got 5 people with weapons. Where two heavies would have less firepower but more defense. Those 5 weapons can, often times, do massive damage before the aliens can do hardly any.
Ive always hated heavy armor. I feel like im walking down a new york ally with a briefcase full of cash. Not to mention it slows me down and I usually end up dead faster. Similar to a bike helmet. I put one on and I think im immortal, then im more likly to crash. Lol!
It's extremely effective. No armor upgrades means the HA only has 200 armor, but with welders it's a moot point.
The reason his strat works so well is that you get a squad of HA/shotgun/welder up in under 15 minutes, before the aliens have enough res to evolve into higher lifeforms.
I wouldn't count HA out at all.
Just be sure to always throw in atleast 1 grenade launcher and 1 hmg into your squad, and that your squad must have a BARE MINIMUM of 3 HA to get anywhere. I'd recommend atleast 4 in your train.
Ask who wants what before dropping the weapons, and when you do, drop them right on top of people so nobody can steal the gun. Be careful with handing out the Gren launcher though, at only 4 rounds per ammo pack, it makes gren ammo the most expensive by far. You want to make sure you are handing it out to someone who knows how to use projectile weaponry and can judge angles well. Handing it out to some n00b who just wants to hump your armoury and spam the marine entrance will get you nowhere...
Personally the grenade launcher is quickly becoming my weapon of choice once I put on a suit of HA. I do as much damage as SGs to buildings, but now I can do it from long distance, taking cover while I reload. I also do splash damage to the nearby buildings, so while a shotty and a gren may take a similar time to take down one chamber, a gren wins when somebody needs 2 or more nearby chambers taken down.
Lately I've been pracitising leading and getting direct hits on moving targets, with little success ofcourse... Usually when I DO hit them, they've gotten close enough to me that the splash damage hurts me too.
Thats why you use more, in a group with guns to kill an Onos and the wit to retreat to the last TF when things get rushy.
As I pointed out in another thread, HA rambos cost more than they earn......... and HA Rambos are the most common HA. HA itself has some benefit against Lerks, skulks, and early fades, but late game that gets pretty thin.
I don't believe HA is overrated, as I've seen very successful HA users...... I do however think its not truly understood. Perhaps thats the same thing, but not in my eyes.
Though, you're right, heavies are not the all-purpose solution many people treat them as... Light armors are more maneuverable, jetpacks are even more maneuverable, and if you're behind turrets with sieges, you don't need heavies to take down the hive.
However, no HA is given out until the end -- I collect the entire team at the base and give everyone HA/ hvy weap / welder, then the entire team goes together (or an occasional fork train to take aliens on from two sides - but even that is barely ever necessary because the train is so powerful).
In this way, the HA train takes down just about anything it comes across. Try it; they weld each other and I heal them, so they never die, and are massively powerful because of the weapons i give out. Nuf said.
The only alien strat I could see beating an HA train is a pack of onii that all use devour. And even then, onii fall really quick to 8 sets of HMG/Nade/Shotty fire...
If just the first 2 or 3 guys have HAs and Shotties, that's only 60-90 res. Where are teh welders? those are with the guys behind them. Those guys are MUCH more expendable, as they only cost 5 res =P. you can also give those marines a gl, and that gl won't be lost, cause if that guy dies, another will pick it up.
so if you got a 5-man group, 3 in HA with shotties, and 2 with welders (and a gl) that costs 120 res. it's much more effective than the full outfit groups (ha, hmgs, welder) and each marine is that much more expendable.
Only seen it twice, both in games where alien teamwork was nil.
The HA train is not something to be pimped about as "game ending". Organised aliens can and will stop HAs if the players are cocky/sloppy.
I think the best time to have HA is when the aliens are reaching their stronger life-forms at a second hive. Umbraed aliens can be really hard to defeat, and you need to make those shots count.
I like to upgrade my armory whenever I am researching weapons2 (resources provided, of course), I find this is a fairly successful tactic that can be reached fairly quickly if the sides are balanced. This is all subjective to situation of course, and it is definitely not a rule of thumb; but I just like to do things this way if I can.
Of course, HA is still the most powerful marine option, so if you are swimming in res there is no excuse not to get it or JPs if your guys play to that style. But people too often think it's the end all... I've seen aliens say GG once they see an HA train, only to repeatedly spam 'lmfao' after the train is taken out by some slick play. It's not that funny, considering it's HA not GodInASuit... I've skulked a stupid rambo HA from 100/100 to death before. Didn't help that he was the one who got the GL ;-). And of course, nothing is more amusing than the HA laughing at the onos the just felled, stopping to weld up, and UH OH xenocide there goes 3 HA.
So I would say HA is overused, but not underpowered. It's just that since this game has RTS elements, like any good RTS you can't always use the same strategy. I myself, if my teammates are competent, would prefer the comm lock a hive and a pivotal res/2res, get PGs and level 3 upgrades and plenty of turrets before even considering HA. Or as I did earlier tonight in one of my rare comming endeavors, 'waste' near infinite res on pure turret farming until I control 7/10 res on the map. You can have your three hives, I'll take all the money. THEN I did the HA train thing, and when it was taken down in the middle of the 2nd hive... I just did it again. Plenty of res.
As expected they turned out to be a HA train but since we knew they were coming we were able to defeat them nicely with only skulks while I umbrad the whole pack and being healed up constantly by the hive. (movements at a hive can be GREAT for getting infinite umbra too). The skulks ate them away, at the end they tried to do a pathetic attempt with just knives/welders while in umbra, a gorge was healing spraying the whole pack, including the skulks so their attempt did jack.
On a sidenote, around 2 minutes later they just dropped along again with ANOTHER HA train but my teammates didnt showed up this time, we lost the hive and the game.
So, HAs are not godly and once they get spotted, with some organised counterattack force they can be defeated easily. Ofcourse, if you have a chaotic team, who dont care to help out until its too late then you're sure to lose.