Why Is 2.0 So Unbalanced?

Im_F4Im_F4 Join Date: 2003-08-18 Member: 19918Members
in NS General Discussion
First of all let me apologise in advance if this wasnt the right area in which to place this rant.

I have to vent, NS is my favourite waste of time and now its pretty much ruined.After playing 2.0 for several weeks now and becoming familiar with the changes its still apparent the aliens are over powered.I can appreciate hardcore gamers/clans were probably getting bored with 1.4 but for the average gamer it was fine.In 1.4 some maps allowed "reasonably organized" marines to gain control rapidly of the map.That can be changed, which it has been in maps like Tanith and Nothing with partial occlusion/redirection/placement of vents.

In 1.04 anybody could join the server and depending on skill and organization any team could win.I have personally won great games on either team including "against all odds comebacks".With the advent of 2.0 this has changed.One of the official beta teting comments I heard was that most games in 2.0 had a duration of 20-30 min. Now I know why, aliens win the game 99% of the time.ThoughI have participated in games though that carry on and on and on as a result of marines defending base (nade spam).

But forget for a moment any arguments,what really happens any given day in NS 2.0 servers?

Well of course alien team is always stacked amplifying the imbalance of strength.Aliens take every res node on the map within 5 minutes.Sensory is first structure chosen, cloaked offensive towers(which now are stronger than before) are riddled around the map.Stronger,hard to hit skulks make geting any res difficult.Then the gassing begins. Shortly there afterwards he first onos arrives wreacking havoc.Hives are chump change so aliens get most thier traits quickly.The game is already lost for marines, compassionate commanders will recycle infantry portals or persons like me wait until the chair is abandoned then do it themselves.

I can appreciate its still going to take a bit more time for people to work around the changes (there are ways for marines to win on the newer maps that havent been fully realized) however the flaw is fundamental. 2.0 demands marines be very organized from the get go, if not, its over before it starts.Unless your a clan a set of random marines will never be organized enough.

So what does this mean to anyone joining a server? Well you either join aliens to win easily and get-off on devouring people(BORING) or you can join marines and bang your head against the wall(FRUSTRATING).So consequently as human nature dictates(especialy true for pubescent and teenage boys that play)Aliens are stacked and the advantages are fully exploited.

Its a case of "res ipse loquitor" that is to say the imbalance is "self evident". Realistically unless your a clan, average players joining marine will never be organized enough to overcome the imbalance of strength.

2.0 should have been offered as a mod for clans -not for regular public servers.

I hope this is rectified soon with subsequent releases of 2.0 a-z or 2.1(whatever)
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Comments

  • elimelim Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9006Members, Constellation
    2.01b. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
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  • SariselSarisel .::&#39; ( O ) &#39;;:-. .-.:;&#39; ( O ) &#39;::. Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Members, Constellation
    Marines need good commanders, or they are doomed from the beginning - teamwork or no teamwork. That's a new revelation that came to me in the past few days ... first I though teamwork was most important, now I see that commanding is even more important. We need better commanders.

    Other than that, we need to give the new people some time to learn how to play NS - to learn how to communicate, how to work with other players.

    The game is obviously unbalanced in 2.0 because it takes so much more effort for the marines to win than it does aliens. Yes, aliens also need to put in effort if the marines get their act together. But it is harder overall for marines. And this is being addressed in the next official patch, which is looking good at the moment - take a look in the beta patch forums.
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  • Im_F4Im_F4 Join Date: 2003-08-18 Member: 19918Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--.eLiMiNaToR.+Aug 18 2003, 03:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (.eLiMiNaToR. @ Aug 18 2003, 03:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 2.01b. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Hi eliminator!!! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
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  • UntitledUntitled Join Date: 2003-02-09 Member: 13348Members
    Its not entirely the game!!

    Some of the maps just need a little tweaking here and there...
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  • Im_F4Im_F4 Join Date: 2003-08-18 Member: 19918Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Sarisel+Aug 18 2003, 03:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sarisel @ Aug 18 2003, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Marines need good commanders, or they are doomed from the beginning - teamwork or no teamwork. That's a new revelation that came to me in the past few days ... first I though teamwork was most important, now I see that commanding is even more important. We need better commanders.

    Other than that, we need to give the new people some time to learn how to play NS - to learn how to communicate, how to work with other players.

    The game is obviously unbalanced in 2.0 because it takes so much more effort for the marines to win than it does aliens. Yes, aliens also need to put in effort if the marines get their act together. But it is harder overall for marines. And this is being addressed in the next official patch, which is looking good at the moment - take a look in the beta patch forums. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Without a doubt a good comm is required.I forgot to mention in my original post that more than ever people are reluctant to comm now-especialy if the map is mineshaft LOL!

    Some players voice comm wont work while in comm chair even if you re-bind the key to another.You could get away with not having voice comm before but now its everything since players still dont scan for thier waypoints or even pay attention.
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  • Im_F4Im_F4 Join Date: 2003-08-18 Member: 19918Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Untitled+Aug 18 2003, 03:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Untitled @ Aug 18 2003, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Its not entirely the game!!

    Some of the maps just need a little tweaking here and there... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Actually while people think some maps need to be changed I disagree although I did think in that in the beginning too.ns_lost seems imposssible to use JP and people tend to go HA in this map.But every hive is most vulnerable to sieging by way of vents in that map.Marines especialy the commanders just need to get familiar with what works and what doesnt.
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  • SariselSarisel .::&#39; ( O ) &#39;;:-. .-.:;&#39; ( O ) &#39;::. Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Members, Constellation
    ns_lost is very JP friendly in the hives. I've seen a lot of good jp/shotgun rushes.
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  • Ben128Ben128 Join Date: 2002-06-21 Member: 808Members, Constellation
    edited August 2003
    Indeed, the game is balanced gameplay wise...the counter system is great, but its the res system that needs some work.
    THe aliens can tech to their midgame faster than marines can even hope..plain and simple.
    I have seen a nice change as of late with the marines winning more, and wining more consistantly though, and that makes me rather joyful.

    I still think all they need to do is tweak it so that aliens start with less res and that alien kills are divided among the team. It would slow down how quickly they can onos and/or toss up a hive.

    P.S Hey guys, did not realize we actually had some [SoM] posters besides eliminator and myself on the boards here...good stuff.
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  • TheRandomSinTheRandomSin Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5571Members
    edited August 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Im F4+Aug 18 2003, 08:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Im F4 @ Aug 18 2003, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I forgot to mention in my original post that more than ever people are reluctant to comm now-especialy if the map is mineshaft LOL! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm really good at mineshaft as the comm...

    I don't see what a lot of people's problems are. The games changed very little from 1.0x . Besides the whole '25rp start' for the alien side... (AND WHATEVER ELSE I MISSED, STAY ON TOPIC!!!)
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  • TAATAA Join Date: 2003-02-24 Member: 13922Members
    From all the complaints I have read lately and heard on IRC, one thing is pretty clear. I think aliens have too much of an advantage at start. They start too quickly. If you think about it, aliens are across the map putting up 3-4 res towers before marines have even built an armory.

    If the alien team doesn't automatically begin with the advantage, I think games would be much more even.

    As far as implementing this, it seems rather simple. Reduce the amount of res the aliens start with. This slows down alien tech drastically and creates a more balanced game.

    I also think 2.1 will help quite a bit as far as balance issues are concerned.
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  • Im_F4Im_F4 Join Date: 2003-08-18 Member: 19918Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--T&A+Aug 18 2003, 04:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (T&A @ Aug 18 2003, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> From all the complaints I have read lately and heard on IRC, one thing is pretty clear. I think aliens have too much of an advantage at start. They start too quickly. If you think about it, aliens are across the map putting up 3-4 res towers before marines have even built an armory.

    If the alien team doesn't automatically begin with the advantage, I think games would be much more even.

    As far as implementing this, it seems rather simple. Reduce the amount of res the aliens start with. This slows down alien tech drastically and creates a more balanced game.

    I also think 2.1 will help quite a bit as far as balance issues are concerned. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Exactly.Notice how aliens dont bother with continual base rushes anymore? They rush once then they all go build and own the res towers in the map.Then in a couple of minutes they lerk or fade and 1 or 2 holdouts go onos 5min or so later.Its not necessary to impede the marine base building anymore when you have them trapped with no resources.
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  • XzilenXzilen Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11642Members, Constellation
    No, for the average gamer it was NOT fine. Look back and see all the people who said they were leaving because of jp/hmg rushes.

    Stop crying about it and try to do something useful.
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  • fo_sheezy_my_neezyfo_sheezy_my_neezy Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10768Members, Constellation
    how many freaking "2.0 is balanced", "2.0 is imbalanced", "TEH REEL REZEN 2.0IZ TEH SUX", "I have the answer", "Marines aren't imbalanced", "Marines are imbalanced", "I quit if you don't (fill in the blank) FLAYRA" threads to we need? FFS, use the search already (I usually hate anyone who posts that, but comon guys, it's ALL been said and done before). I would make a formal request to the forums mods and admins to immediately lock without warning every single post of this nature until the community realizes that the problem is known about, it's being worked on, there ARE beta patches that fix alot, and to generally be patient. It's getting harder and harder every day to come back to the boards, because it's the same threads with different titles, and almost never anything new.
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  • XzilenXzilen Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11642Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--fo sheezy my neezy+Aug 18 2003, 10:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fo sheezy my neezy @ Aug 18 2003, 10:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> how many freaking "2.0 is balanced", "2.0 is imbalanced", "TEH REEL REZEN 2.0IZ TEH SUX", "I have the answer", "Marines aren't imbalanced", "Marines are imbalanced", "I quit if you don't (fill in the blank) FLAYRA" threads to we need? FFS, use the search already (I usually hate anyone who posts that, but comon guys, it's ALL been said and done before). I would make a formal request to the forums mods and admins to immediately lock without warning every single post of this nature until the community realizes that the problem is known about, it's being worked on, there ARE beta patches that fix alot, and to generally be patient. It's getting harder and harder every day to come back to the boards, because it's the same threads with different titles, and almost never anything new. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Agreed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
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  • CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
    I feel its because of the elitists who hate me, called the Playtesters/Veterans. They tested it...and it is PERFECT....for a clan environment. Only public testing can give results on public play.
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  • ApeApe Join Date: 2003-06-17 Member: 17448Members, Constellation
    edited August 2003
    Flayra and the Devs/Vets/PTs/everyone else who contributed to testing the 2.0 beta admitted that towards the end of testing, they realised that a lot of the fun had been removed from NS. To correct this, they upset balance in the name of fun. They are aware of it. They are working on it, an official update will be released soon which will bring a lot more balance to the table.

    Be patient. In the meantime, please s tfu.

    Cheers.
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  • CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
    Yeah, seriously try 2.01b...its great
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  • SpurtySpurty Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8944Members, Constellation
    Ok, I (auto)conceed that the balance is probably ok if the game starts off with certain start states.

    States that I've seen continually nerfing one side or the other (yeah, poor alien choices can nerf them just as hard as marines):

    Aliens choosing sensory = hard but very possible
    Aliens choosing defence = medium, possible to win as marine fairly quickly
    Aliens choosing movement = incredibly hard but not impossible to win

    so, if you are a wise marine and you can tell (by knowledge of the alien tech trees) what way they went, you now have a guide as to how many shotguns you need to flow the alien hive with before they have time to get a 2nd up <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Can anyone tell me what numbers they feel make the game fair? 8 on 8 appears fair to me but lower than 4 on 4 swings the game to alien heavy.

    Guys, I LOVE this game. I'm sooo going to get in trouble for playing it (Will be moving in with future wife and she likes attention, but I like NS. Hmm bad start .. I am therefore teh nerdy bloke with pasty skin from England ) <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
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  • fo_sheezy_my_neezyfo_sheezy_my_neezy Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10768Members, Constellation
    edited August 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I feel its because of the elitists who hate me, called the Playtesters/Veterans. They tested it...and it is PERFECT....for a clan environment. Only public testing can give results on public play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The vets are from clans, and balanced for clan play, the PTs are not from clans, and balanced from a public perspective. Also, if you think it's "perfect" for clan play, go ask any clan out there who has scrimmed, and they'll tell you that you're wrong.
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  • SoulSkorpionSoulSkorpion Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
    2.0 is a damn sight more balanced than 1.04. I love it. There are few minor tweaks which could make it better, but it's by no means ruined.

    I find it interesting that the original poster thinks marines got a raw deal. I was ready to redirect to <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=42239&st=0' target='_blank'>my post on how to play aliens properly under 2.0</a>, but I see I don't have to <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    I can safely say that marines have not got a raw deal under 2.0. Why? Because I've been able to consistently win (or, failing that, put up a hell of a fight) as commander. The business about the aliens capping five res nodes right at the start of the game is true, but a good commander can deal with that. The aliens can only do that at the expense of early skulk rushes, which means it's easier for you to expand. Anyway, the aliens can take res nodes with their initial 25rp each, but that res doesn't buy defenses.

    Marines really don't have such a tough time, if the commander knows what he's doing. I've been able to win games dropping no weapons other than shotguns. Here's a hint as to how I did it: I didn't waste time and resources relocating, I didn't go for a two-hive lockdown, and I didn't over-rely on massive turret farms.
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