An Onos Is 100 Res, But What's It Really Worth?
Harry_S_Truman
Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9568Members
Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9568Members
<div class="IPBDescription">True price of an Onos.</div> I've played many dozens of games now and the 102 point Onos with redemption is one wacked out balancing mechanism.
On a typical game, I've seen the same Onos redeemed many time only to have done many times his res value in damage. It appears that NS uses a "points system" to evaluate the cost and value of certain elements of the game. These points are related of course to the resource ponits that we collect during the game.
A Typical Onos with redemption is worth many times the 102 points spent on him. I know that each run I've made as a redeeming Onos I was able to destroy many times the value of what I put into it. To top it off, by the time I actually DID die, I had accumlated enough points to do it again do to RFK.
This is an overwhelming and broken game element. I've seen redeeming Onos under the 10 minute mark, an amount of time that not even possible for the marines to both research what's needed to deal with them AND have enough resources to use it.
There's a real problem here.
On a typical game, I've seen the same Onos redeemed many time only to have done many times his res value in damage. It appears that NS uses a "points system" to evaluate the cost and value of certain elements of the game. These points are related of course to the resource ponits that we collect during the game.
A Typical Onos with redemption is worth many times the 102 points spent on him. I know that each run I've made as a redeeming Onos I was able to destroy many times the value of what I put into it. To top it off, by the time I actually DID die, I had accumlated enough points to do it again do to RFK.
This is an overwhelming and broken game element. I've seen redeeming Onos under the 10 minute mark, an amount of time that not even possible for the marines to both research what's needed to deal with them AND have enough resources to use it.
There's a real problem here.
Comments
The reason we see early Onos is due to individual alien RFK. Unfortunately I think this should be removed and replaced with a team distributed RFK.
2 level 2 LMG's are enough to kill an Onos before it redeems? In what fantasy world do you live in? Since an Onos starts to redeem around ~200 health, either redemption has to fail many times, or those level 2 LMG's need to be filled with magical pixie fairy dust.
An Onos at 10 minutes with redeem can utterly destroy every marine resource outside of the marine base with impunity. I'm talking TF's, RT, PG's, SG's and anything else the Marines may have built. I've done this personally many times.
Wouldn't it at least make more sense to scale the upgrade according to the cost of creature? I mean, who can argue with me that redemption on a skulk is worth the same as redemption on an Onos? Of course with the ability to evolve back and forth, I don't see how this could be accomplished.
So you say to hell with game balance, because someone is a better player and getting resouces via RFK, that same player deserves to run all over them with an even stronger creature.
That's some odd logic.
That's some odd logic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You get used to it. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Redemption onos is a very valid choice, especially in an even match. Losing a 100 res onos on the first run is very painful to the entire alien team.
What's more anti-team? The regen onos that got 2-4 marines and 3 turrets, then dies? Or the redempt onos that lived the rest of the game and easily killed 10+ marines and over 40 turrets, a couple TFs, a couple elec RTs, probably an HA or two. Woah, passed the 100 res mark, easy. And on top of that, you probably took some areas away or over from the marines. Yes, yes, these are specific cases, I've died first run as a redempt onos before, and I've lived entire games as a regen onos (a 1.5 hour game at that). But that is the game, it changes, unlike other FPS, alot. Dynamic games are what grab attention, and they also stretch the mind.
Yes, an onos is way worth the 100 res, just don't do it at your teams expense. Tell them you are saving for onos. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh yeah, and don't do it on vet servers. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
So you say to hell with game balance, because someone is a better player and getting resouces via RFK, that same player deserves to run all over them with an even stronger creature.
That's some odd logic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
it got nothing to balance, if a single player manage to kill so much to get 100 res it means the marines are running around the map doing rambos.. if they do they should know it have consequences.. like a rampaging onos..
if marines are going togheter 3 players can take out a onos.. its not easy but they can..
and i didn't mean that 2 lmg alone can kill a totaly healthy onos.. but a damaged one is another story..
The problem the marines have with redemption Onos is that redemption actually works on them. You never hear complaints about redemption Fades or redemption Lerks. Why? It's easy to kill them before redemption even has a chance to kick in.
That must've been a really bad Onos. A regeneration Onos can easily do much more than that.
To quote myself. It depends on the marine team, and if you're an early-game onos.
That is why redemption is for newbies mostly. Otherwise all 3 onos variants are ok at doing their job. Regen onos are particularly good at breaking down the marines piece by piece; carapace and redemp onos are capable of quick blitz assaults, but I'm sure the carapace onos knows when to retreat, has healing stations, and then can come back much faster than a redeeming onos. If the redemption onos retreats to a healing station, he too can come back much faster than if he redeemed to a hive, but the fact is that a carapace onos can pull this off much better, owing to his higher effective hp. Also for killing small turret bases or electrified RTs, regen onos are best at this. The other variants can do this as well but never as well as a regen onos.
In the end a redemption onos is disadvantaged compared to the other variants, because he gets none of their bonuses. Now if that redemption onos *also* redeems a lot, that effectively takes him out of commission a lot of the time, much more so than a redeeming onos who knows when to retreat and especially so compared to the other onos variants. He cannot offer as much real resistance as the other variants.
We won eventually, but it took time. Yes, time due to redemption, but that's less costly than just losing an onos to the 15-20 turrets there and the normal 1-4 HA with HMGs/shotties/GLs.
EDIT: Isn't that cute, we think too much alike...it's scary...
Even if for every 5 rushes the onos kill 1 marine, that's more res than the marines get. Eventually the marines start losing res (because they cannot expand, and their base is slowly being destroyed 1 turret at a time) and the aliens gain res (because they kill the marines, also while the marines can't expand they are getting more RT intake). This is severe slippery slope gameplay, it's not where one side gets better faster than the other, it's where one side gets better by making the other side weaker.
Long protracted stalemates that everyone complains about are CAUSED BY redeem onos, because the marines who can't expand only have 1 place to spend all their resources. Rather than if the marines had 3 bases, they'd have to share res between the 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesn't mean much, <i>anything</i> can be worth more than it's cost.
That doesn't mean much, <i>anything</i> can be worth more than it's cost. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for confirming his point. That is its meaning. That was his point. Did you get his point? kthxbye
In response to Windel:
You still have to get that 100 res to go onos, and you have to drop D chambers.
Try the flip side:
Marines locked down two hives, you never got a second chamber type, you're stuck with whatever you got, it doesn't matter (you don't even have the ability to tech like camping marines do). You lost all oni (maybe 2 or 3), and marines took the map. You are throwing skulk after skulk at the HA they have attacking your hive. Then, they just weld and weld and weld. What? They just got RFK and lost absolutly nothing!! So, lets remove the welder, make all marine structures self-heal and armories now dispense health and repair armor, also if you use an obs. it will teleport you to a CC.
Really, get HA that's why it's there. Devour/redeem issues? Play on a 2.01 server. Looky you have a chance to "onos" the alien team and get RFK and never die. Cool huh?
Every game and situation is different.
AP Wire follow up: Millions of gamers gasp in shock and commit sepukku for their sins. UN summit called in to discuss what to do with the large pile up of bodies. Burger King wins final bid.
HELLO?! Anyone out there?! All three evolutions are viable, welcome to Flayra's game. Welcome to the fact that no game or situation is exactly alike. Hey, you got a lock down of two hives and you just finally got 100res? Maybe redeem's a good idea here folks, you can help stave off the heavies and trash a farm or too with some gorge back up! Maybe you know you can mandhandle the other team without fear? Regen's a nice pick! Are you a UNIQUE INDIVIDUAL SNOWFLAKE? Then pick which evolution you prefer and play better with! Are you a "total ****in' /\/008"? because you don't play like the other guy? Who cares?!
We won eventually, but it took time. Yes, time due to redemption, but that's less costly than just losing an onos to the 15-20 turrets there and the normal 1-4 HA with HMGs/shotties/GLs.
EDIT: Isn't that cute, we think too much alike...it's scary... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
could have been done by non redeeming onos
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->all 3 onos variants are ok at doing their job.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as stated previously.
Also newbie != lose. Newbs win against newbs.