Marines Teamwork
Macguyvok
Godlike Fuzzydice Join Date: 2003-05-09 Member: 16162Members
<div class="IPBDescription">What problems do you have?</div> Let me start by saying that the point of this thread is simply to get a good idea about what makes teamwork on the marines team hard, if any. I've read a decent amount of stuff claiming that its difficult for marines to have the same teamwork aliens enjoy, and part of me agrees. I don't want to start a debate abotu if this is true, or whether aliens or Marines are overpowered, I just want to know what common problems people have working as a team on Marines. That's all.
So please refrain from commeneting on the ballance issue, that's soemthing to be decided later, after all the facts are in. Thanks.
With that said, I'm gunna throw my $.02. I feel that as a com, it is ver difficult to communicate with different squads, or individual marines. I use vice chat, but I've found that If I use voice chat to order a squad to do something, the squad breaks down as other marines swarm to that area to 'help'.
So, post you're teamwork stubling blocks! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
So please refrain from commeneting on the ballance issue, that's soemthing to be decided later, after all the facts are in. Thanks.
With that said, I'm gunna throw my $.02. I feel that as a com, it is ver difficult to communicate with different squads, or individual marines. I use vice chat, but I've found that If I use voice chat to order a squad to do something, the squad breaks down as other marines swarm to that area to 'help'.
So, post you're teamwork stubling blocks! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
1) Too much carry over from DM - Marines think they should be able to own when ramboing because it works in other games
2) Big Gun Syndrome - As was stated in an earlier thread, once a marine gets his hands on HA and his weapon of choice, they think they are invincible. I have seen good teams of stock marines go all to pieces once they got some gear.
3) Marines Often Only Coordinate When It's Too Late - I do not believe that the "end game stalemate" is entirely the fault of Turret Farms or Grenade Spam. A good portion of the blame has to fall on the marines being holed up in a corner and having no choice but to work together if they even want to leave their base. Try getting some marines to hang around the base, weld turrets, and pick up dropped equipment when they can freely rambo the map. You might get one if you are lucky.
4) "I need full ammo when I die" - Comm: Get through the Phase gate. NSPlayer: *hump hump hump* 'nuff said
I won't say all the problems are related to the player base, but a good majority are.
Another flaw in teamwork I've noticed is the odd but incessant need for ALL marines to build a new structure. It just takes one, guys. The rest should be on the lookout for silenced skulks.
No-one wants the job of defending a base while their buddies are out in the front lines. It may be a boring job but somebody's gotta do it. Finding someone willing/competent can be tough.
Marines seem to be infatuated with taking out WoL by themselves. DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT! We have a tech tree designed specifically for that. If handled correctly those OC's are a waste of their time and resources. The aliens want you to spend your time/ammo dodging back and forth by a corner and spreading shots, meanwhile the gorge/def chambers heal all your damage. As soon as a rine spots one of these within 50 yards of our base he screams over the mic and instantly any orders/plans I had are out the window. Marines phase in from our suffering outpost to take out this new 'threat' Sure, that rally call by the hyperactive marine may bring together some teamwork, but you'd be much better off pressuring other res nodes/hives. 1 Marine following orders to build strategic siege cannons will do the trick.
I hate it when marines use the word 'here' That means nothing to me. Use 'squad 1' or give location. Better yet, use your comms. Those are much easier to find w/ spacebar.
I'll post more as i think of them
Teamwork is NOT something that comes naturally, it has to be practiced, yet NS forces one side to use it or be annhilated.
EDIT : Once a concrete version is out that isnt about to get changed, maybe me and steamed can get together to write a pub strategy guide or something.
Personally, I love that aspect of the game. I'm a team player. I don't do solo deathmatch, it's always team deathmatch. Hell, usually it's not deathmatch at all, but something more like TFC or NS. If not that, then straight-out cooperative through the single-player campaign (which is sadly a missing feature in most games these days). But Joe Public (NSPlayer) doesn't see it that way. It's sad, really, that the only way to be labeled 'successful' is if you play to the LCD.
That's lowest-common-denominator, or Joe Public again.
I think we can thank Gamespy and wider media coverage overall for bringing all these new players into the mix. NS was a hit when it came out, but 2.0 is much bigger. More servers, players, and web banners screaming "Natural Selection 2.0! Get it!" Lets hope the new players learn what NS is, and fast.
But, BACK TO THE TOPIC.....
My biggest issue with comming is newbs....no wait..
My biggest issue with comming is I suck at....dangit, one more time...
I really think that alot of this will be ironed out once the CS fools leave, and the newbies learn the maps as well as that NS is NOT a regular FPS. Some underlying issues are the concept of "what I do, DOES matter." Alot of marine lovers keep spouting that "One marine can't make a difference." Well, look at Batman, sheesh! No, really. I've had mah homie, fa sheezy, holding one location for 20-30 seconds, well he died, but he totally disallowed the aliens (and the gorge he killed) to build there. Well, 2-3 seconds after his untimely death, my 3 man squad gets there and builds it up. Guess what? It was a hive. Cool eh? Yeah, one marine can make a difference.
Anyhow, I think NS whiners STILL need more time. If anything, to weed out the 12 year olds that don't understand "teamwork" and "wait".
Remember, in a problem involving people, look to those involved for the symptom, then derive the solution. A majority of all "bugs" in software testing is user incompetence.
But, BACK TO THE TOPIC.....
My biggest issue with comming is newbs....no wait..
My biggest issue with comming is I suck at....dangit, one more time...
I really think that alot of this will be ironed out once the CS fools leave, and the newbies learn the maps as well as that NS is NOT a regular FPS. Some underlying issues are the concept of "what I do, DOES matter." Alot of marine lovers keep spouting that "One marine can't make a difference." Well, look at Batman, sheesh! No, really. I've had mah homie, fa sheezy, holding one location for 20-30 seconds, well he died, but he totally disallowed the aliens (and the gorge he killed) to build there. Well, 2-3 seconds after his untimely death, my 3 man squad gets there and builds it up. Guess what? It was a hive. Cool eh? Yeah, one marine can make a difference.
Anyhow, I think NS whiners STILL need more time. If anything, to weed out the 12 year olds that don't understand "teamwork" and "wait".
Remember, in a problem involving people, look to those involved for the symptom, then derive the solution. A majority of all "bugs" in software testing is user incompetence. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I agree 110%.
To the topic, i think a problem I have had, is that the marines themselves need marin style leadership. The chain of command should look like this...
Commander -> Squad leader -> Marines in squad
A fumbling block, I think, is created when the commander doesn't use the squad system to better manage teams, also I think its hard to command when you don't have those one or two marines who are willing to push a little harder to help the commander get his job done.
If there is one thing that commanders need to better command, its a squad leader willing to do the job right.
This chain of command can work backwards as well. I can listen/watch for familiar voices and get to them alot faster than trying to supply random marines with health and ammo. When the standard grunts learn that I drop ammo/health near their field comm, perhaps they'll be more entitled to sticking closer to him.
Those are just a few things that happen often to me as a marine. I have tried comm once but because I did not respond fast enough for all the rambos I got voted out.
And also, if you're new at comming, I suggest trying to comm and letting everyone know that you aren't that good yet. I'm not amazing, and I let people know that as a commander I am not that good. I tell everyone that I'd like to comm for a couple minutes to get things going, and then I pick someone else to command when I am done. This way I've helped the team, got some experience going, and also the short 5-10 minutes I commed won't leave a huge lasting impression on the overall game.
haha.. wish that always worked, me as a comm im usualy nice to everyone, and because of that some may think i dont have the aggression needed to comm so they wonder around the map getting killed, then you have an a**hole comm that disses his team the ENTIRE time, calls them ignorant even when their following orders and we beat the other team that wasnt noobified or anthing, the a-holes name is zippy or something
anyways, my point is the being nice doesnt always work and being mean doesnt always work either!, both work, for one being mean sometimes gets ppl working together and they listen because they think you really got a plan, on the other hand like i said being nice they might think your not tough enough for comm, my suggestion is be both! that'll probably work much better than being one or the other <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
its one of the two:
-they listen to me fully, shoot kinda good, defend res, and stay together and we win
-they dont listen at all, chat shoot at all, rambo off, and dont jump into the phase gate when i yell "JUMP IN THE PHASE GATE"
those are the teams i just hop out
That's the *only* issue I have, guess I am spoiled <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Consider 4 Marines defending a room, all moving around trying to look at all the openings. Two skulks rush in and suddenly everyone is jumping around and getting in eachothers way. Usual outcome is one Marine dead, or none, but if it's 3 or 4 skulks, there's trouble.
Same position, but everyone is standing in a corner. 3-4 skulks is usually no problem, nobody gets in the others way, all bullets are counted, skulks have to go for one of the Marines to have a chance of getting a kill.
- Hump armory all day
- Whine and complain for JP/HA/Big guns
- Rambo off when the comm spams chat with 'STICK TOGETHER'
- Big gun attitude (see previous posts by others)
- Just fool around at critical moments
And the sad thing is that sometimes this also happen on the alien team,there's always at least 1 person slacking that deserves a good whooping.
And the sad thing is that sometimes this also happen on the alien team,there's always at least 1 person slacking that deserves a good whooping. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ya seriously ppl, if you want to fool around go download some bots and play BY YOURSELF, where you can completely and totaly bore yourself to death and creat your own little hell instead of purposfully **** on other peoples server that want to play as a team
People who don't know the facts. This may include new players but by far its the old hands who refuse to update that cause the real problems. Clueless new people get killed. Clueless old hands get other people killed, and will always point out how wrong the comm is.
People who can't use their weapons. Boy o boy, I've an HMG, I'm going to hunt skulks! *dies*.
People who don't listen to the team.
So, in my opinion, one of the things in NS I beleive is a hinderance to teamwork is a lack of information.
"Structure is under attack". Ok - where? Is it on my minimap? Nope. Is it flung randomly amongst the two dozen dots on my screen? Yup! Anyone up for a little game of "Wheres Waldo?"
Or, the commander has forgotten about you, and you're wondering what you could possibly do to be useful. Can you check your minimap to see all your structures, any undefended points, and possibly discover a way to be useful <i>without</i> asking your comm? Can you even figure out his/her general plan without asking? Hellll no. The com pretty much needs to take every marine by the hand and tell them where they're needed. Its very rare that a player can tell what role needs to be filled simply by viewing the information presented to them.
Basically what i'm trying to say is that players need to be given more information automatically so that they can make intelligent decisions <i>by themselves</i>. Not all players that go wandering off are nubs. Some of them may be confused, or curious. Its all about a lack of info. And no - im not saying that players need to be more independant per se. I think, players need to be more <i>interconnected</i>. Given enough relevant data, I think the logistics side of the game will pretty much take care of itself, leaving the commander or dominant alien players to focus much more on the grand tactical scale, rather than being forced to babysit so much.
Just a thought <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I tell everyone to go to a waypoint far from our heavily turreted base, like setting up a hive. This is a full team effort, as the aliens have set up many obstacles to overcome.
Half the team stays at base, getting spored by the lerk who would be totally harmless had the marines been at the waypoint/on their way to the waypoint. They spend all of their time watching the vent, getting one or two shots off when it shows their head, demanding that I spend all of our res to upgrade the armory and get a GL so they can blast it... instead of going to the WP. Tests have shown that a spore-lerk is totally harmless if no one is in the base.
So I have one guy actually at the waypoint, trying to build a turret factory as fast as he can while fending off the skulks that come at him. I'm elated when I see four of my marines heading to reinforce him - knowing that my res investment will be secure once they walk in and take over the place... but alas, they spotted an alien resource tower. That means they're going to huddle around it and knife it while a skulk comes and eats most of them.
Everyone starts respawning in, one by one, and try to head back to the waypoint... getting devoured by ambushing skulks as they travel alone instead of a group. My res investment is now gone, aliens have conquered another node and replaced the node they lost, and I'm back to the begining with no res and my entrances are now blocked off by invisible OCs. Thanks, team.