Dm susceptability in ns

Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot · August 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">Deathmatchers in natural selection</div>***PLEASE READ ENTIRE THREAD, Humbaba (PT) makes some FANTASTIC Points that you should read before you reply.***

I have a few little concerns I would like to get some feedback on.

Firstly, from my experience <b>Player Character Movement Speed</b> and <b>Weapon Recoil Factor</b> have a big impact on Gameplay. Specifically, my concern is <b>Circle Strafing</b>, the result of high speed character movement and low recoil factor. I cannot imagine a bigger cancer to Marine Teamplay then this DM style strategy.

This lead to my second Concern. Do the current group of GTs test the game for DM (Deathmatch) susceptibility? If the current group of GTs (Gametesters) are all within the NS community you must assume they are also Teamplay enthusiasts. My concern is that this is an unsuitable test of how NS will play on Public Servers. Teamplay enthusiasts make great GTs to test the Teamplay Dynamics of NS, but how does a squad of DMing Marines affect the Gamplay, or perhaps a few DMing Marines hounding resources but not contributing to the team?

I am a HUGE Teamplay Enthusiast but I am also a realist. I think DM Susceptability is a mjor issue in TFPS (Teamplay First Person Shooter) Design. A TFPS in design doesn't always translate to a TFPS in execution. History has shown that TFPSs usually evolve to nothing more then TDM (Team Deathmatch), I hope that NS will not suffer the same fate.

To avoid that fate I believe a TFPS must test for DM Susceptability. What is the impact of DMers on NS? To what extent can DMers affect the Teamplay of NS?

These are all issues I hope we do not have to face, but the reality is the Public Servers is where an FPS is going to be made or broken. When NS is released both Teamplayers and DMers will flood the servers to check it out. Will DMers corrupt the gameplay of NS enough to frustrate those who are Teamplayers? Can the DMers be motivated to adopt NS Teamplay Style Gameplay?

I think these are questions that must be asked if we hope to cultivate NS into the premier Team First Person Shooter that we know it can be.

I wish all the best for NS, I am certainly anticipating its release.

This is,

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

Signing off.[B][/B]

Longtooth · August 2002

Circle strafing dosen't affect gameplay as much when your enemy can fly,teleport, and walk on walls. By deathmatchers do you mean the style of gameplay or do you mean marines that go off on thier own?

SmokeMasta · August 2002

marines must use Teamplay
aliens use more 'DM' style

becouse one Level 1 alien can easy take on 2 marines
wandering off alone or not contributing to the team as a marine leads to certain death or the commander just don't give u a weapon so ur stuck with a pistol

Sgt_X · August 2002

The NS team has spent a lot of time balancing. Also NS does have some DM to a limited degree on purpose on the alien side. They're meant to be sort of on thier own going a long and meeting up with buddies to beat up anything they can't take on solo.

Oh, and I've heard tales of some evilness of our PTs, very evil.

Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot · August 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Longtooth @ Aug. 05 2002,21:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Circle strafing dosen't affect gameplay as much when your enemy can fly,teleport, and walk on walls. By deathmatchers do you mean the style of gameplay or do you mean marines that go off on thier own?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Very good point. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

I define DMers as those who are concerned with running a High Personal Frag Count and not concerned with the welfare of the Team. Solo Map Running (Running the Map in circles looking for Frags) is a characteristic trait of a DMer. No hate toward DMers by the way, I understand that it's just a matter of preference.

I also noticed that Aliens leaned more toward DM and Marines toward Teamplay. However I doubt that is going to stop people from playing Marines in a DM style fashion just because of the design.

This is,

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

Over and Out.

humbaba · August 2002

Well, whiskey has some valid fears. They were the fears I had originally when I hooked up with this mod. The thing I've found is, marines can't circle strafe aliens. They just Arent fast enough. The aliens do the strafing because a lvl 1 can outrun a marine. Not just to a small degree either. We are talking Michael Johnson vs. Chris farley running the 100 meter dash speed differences (well, not quite . .). Marines are weak alone, because each weapon has a distinct weakness. The LMG is the most balanced, but too weak to be effective without teammates. The Shotgun can deal tih close range threats, but the enormous spread means that the damage decrease exponentially over long range, so if an alien stays out of range and bombards (yes, even a builder), he could probobly kill the marine. The Heavy machine gun is potent, but the reload time is enormous, and the marine will fall without shotgun support. The grenade launcher has a slow ROF and a medium reload, its grenades are delayed, so an alien charging you head on WILL kill you.
NS teaches teamplay with a hickory stick. If you run out and try to deathmatch, you WILL be spanked. Very thoroughly. I don't know how much I can disclose, but we have Deathmatch Tested with people used to a more Deathmatch style of play and the results weren't pretty for them. They learned pretty darn fast to stick together.
A lone marine is lunch meat to an alien. Aliens are supposed to deathmatch, theredore hopefully drawing the deathmatchers off the marine team. Add in a little thrashing for those who step out of line, and you've got a mod that does more than encourage teamplay, it enforces it. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>
Oh, and marines have no individual scores. SO, theres no stupid punks runing off rambo style increasing their score cause there is none. Not that they'd survive . . .
Trust me, comign from a guy who originally tried to play marines in a deathmatch style, I have the bob bite scars to prove what I say as true.

TiCK · August 2002

Well actually the <b>Alien Cool Factor</b> (being that fact that you are an acutal Alien) I would believe, it would not lend heavily to TP (team play) as a <b>Squad of Marines</b> would. Mainly for the fact of that because the aliens don't have to rely on the <b>Commanding Commander Player</b> for advanced weaponry.

Other mods like <b>Counter-Strike</b> can be played with functional teamwork, or as the <b>Low Ping Power Gamer</b> that kills half the enemy team with spinning headshots. I would think that the <b>Distinct Lack of Teamwork</b> prevalent in most online games would seriously hinder the marine side if untilized instead of TP.

This was,

TiCKiNGTiMeBoMB

Ok then.

Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot · August 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (humbaba @ Aug. 05 2002,21:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, whikey has some valid fears. They were the fears I had originally when I hooked up with this mod. The thing I've found is, marines can't circle strafe aliens. They just Arent fast enough. The aliens do the strafing because a lvl 1 can outrun a marine. Not just to a small degree either. We are talking Michael Johnson vs. Chris farley running the 100 meter dash speed differences (well, not quite . .). Marines are weak alone, because each weapon has a distinct weakness. The LMG is the most balanced, but too weak to be effective without teammates. The Shotgun can deal tih close range threats, but the enormous spread means that the damage decrease exponentially over long range, so if an alien stays out of range and bombards (yes, even a builder), he could probobly kill the marine. The Heavy machine gun is potent, but the reload time is enormous, and the marine will fall without shotgun support. The grenade launcher has a slow ROF and a medium reload, its grenades are delayed, so an alien charging you head on WILL kill you.
NS teaches teamplay with a hickory stick. If you run out and try to deathmatch, you WILL be spanked. Very thoroughly. I don't know how much I can disclose, but we have Deathmatch Tested with people used to a more Deathmatch style of play and the results weren't pretty for them. They learned pretty darn fast to stick together.
A lone marine is lunch meat to an alien. Aliens are supposed to deathmatch, theredore hopefully drawing the deathmatchers off the marine team. Add in a little thrashing for those who step out of line, and you've got a mod that does more than encourage teamplay, it enforces it. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
*HUGE SIGH of RELIEF*

Thank you so very much Humbaba! Getting a reply straight from a Play Tester regarding my concerns is very comforting indeed!

I'm glad the NS Team is so focused on Teamplay Balancing and I am even happier to hear the results of the "DM Test". <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

Goes to show that this extensive gameplay and game balancing period is very well justified, and to rush a release would be nothing short of disasterous for a budding TFPS.

Keep Testing Boys!

This is,

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

Over and Out.

CMEast · August 2002

I personally would consider someone who went just for personal kills a llama rather than a DM'er.

Bah, damn you humbaba, when I clicked on add reply you hadnt posted, I wrote a mini essay (you know me <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>) and then when I checked Mr Whiskey's post I found you had already said most of it. Grrr, next time we meet in SI you will be owned <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>.

One thing you missed was that because the aliens have a more DM style not only will they attract the DM'ers but they are also more suited to that style of play. A DMing marine will be owned by a DMing alien simply because the marine isnt built for DMing (urgh at all those acronyms). The alien can quite literally run rings around a marine, epecially when the commander wont give him any weapons, ammo or health because he isnt on the team.

bah, just noticed you added that, dunno how I missed it. Oh well, not deleting stuff again.

Besides, who wants to be a pansy marine when you can be an alien?

Bleh, and when I finally post this after all those deletes Mr Whisky has already replied with his fears allayed.

Well all I can say is welcome to the mod and this forum Mr Whiskey, its nice to see new faces that can actually write legible posts <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>, just watch out for that Humbaba, hes a sneaky little git <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

humbaba · August 2002

LOL! I am just too fast. heh heh. I try, I try. ::Offtopic::I look forward to SI ing with you again, perhaps you hunger for some Shottyfied goodness? PM me some time with your AIM or E-MAil or other contact info, we should set up some times to kill each other::Offtopic: Good point CM, the typical DMer will want to be an alien just cause he will be able to show off his "25-3" score. Of course, the marines won't care because they are above silly piddly things like scores.
Well, this thread has turned out rather nicely. . . yessiree. (keeps fingers crossed hoping someone doesnt come in, read the first paragraph of the first post, and posts a repeat of topics already covered) . . .
Oh, after reading whiskey's post, I realize it sounded like I was targeting CM. Nah . .CM's a good guy. He was just reinfocing. What I don't wanna hear is someone coming in and saying "Waitaminute, whut if all the Marines go deathmatch . .durrr . . .". Unless they are new to the boards, they should know better, heh heh.

Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot · August 2002

No Kidding Humbaba!

It took longer to get my Double Bypass Burger Combo at McDicks then it did to get a reply (A good one at that) to my concerns on this boards.

Oh, and so that nobody writes an essay only to find someone else has addressed their points *Cough*CMEast*Cough* I edited my First Post to warn people to read the entire thread especially Humbaba's post.

This is a pretty nice experience as my first time posting on the NS boards. No flamage and good replies.

I will definately allocate more brainstorm power to an idea I'm brewing on creating a good Pick-Up Game Site to ensure that Teamplayers will always have a good place to find fellow Teamplayers to play with whenever they get that NS urge.

And thanks CMEast! I do indeed feel welcomed, thanks for 'attempting' to address my concern, I'm sure you would have done just as good of a job as Humbaba did. And yes, I will keep my third eye on Humbaba... somebody who thinks my thoughts are valid has got to be imbalanced in some way. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

This is,

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

Over and Out. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

Daxx · August 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Whiskey Tango Foxtrot @ Aug. 05 2002,22:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is a pretty nice experience as my first time posting on the NS boards. No flamage and good replies.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Thats cause:

A: You didn't ask when the mod would be out.

B: You didn't ask if the aliens were going to be wearing ski masks

C: You worded your question in an intelligent and thought provoking manner.

Welcome to the boards.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> "Waitaminute, whut if all the Marines go deathmatch . .durrr . . ."</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Well then, it would just be an easy win for the aliens then wouldn't it?

Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot · August 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (CMEast @ Aug. 05 2002,21:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The alien can quite literally run rings around a marine, epecially when the commander wont give him any weapons, ammo or health because he isnt on the team.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I've been thinking about what you've posted CMEast.

The Commander Mode (COMODE) is, completely and absolutely, <i>the</i> gameplay element that is central to effective and cohesive Teamplay.

As long as you have a person who wants to win in the COMODE, Teamplay will be nothing less then a necessity. Any exploits in Design will be strictly enforced by the Commander because ultimately, if victory is to be achieved, Teamwork is a must. I use the word 'exploit' because I do NOT think the developers designed the Marines with DM in mind, the entire <i>design</i> of NS seems to indicate that.

I'm am happy to conclude that my concern was unwarrented. The Marine physical disadvantage combined with the need for combined firepower, the Resource Model, the Class System and the COMOD; these internal factors within the design of NS has arranged to make it rewarding to Teamplay. DM is doomed to failure.

All within what, 10 posts?

I would like to extend a thanks to Humbaba and everyone who replied to my post. My intention is to contribute my experience in FPSs and, in some little way, help hone Natural Selection to its' greatest potential. Posing questions and initiating discussions will be my method. You have all made my experience here on the NS boards a pleasant and informative time. We will talk again soon I'm sure. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

Damn. I can hardly wait for NS, but I am willing to. I guess that just shows how much I want it. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

This is,

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

Over and Out.

PS: I realize my acronym for Commander Mode (COMODE) sounds identical to the word Commode, which may seem insulting because a Commode is a toilet. I contend that it is negative to say the Commander Mode is a Toilet, in fact I consider it a compliment. Simply put, what would the world be like without toilets. Yes, the Commander Mode is a toilet, and that is a good thing. And regarding the Teamplay in NS, the COMODE is a very, very good thing. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

Daxx · August 2002

LOL, somebody sign this guy up for the "Acronym Creator of the Week" award <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

GTs (Gametesters)
TFPS (Teamplay First Person Shooter)
The Commander Mode (COMODE)

Whiskey_Tango_Foxtrot · August 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Daxx22 @ Aug. 05 2002,23<img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">LOL, somebody sign this guy up for the "Acronym Creator of the Week" award <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

GTs (Gametesters)
TFPS (Teamplay First Person Shooter)
The Commander Mode (COMODE)</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
*LoL* <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

It is an honour just to be nominated.

Even my Handle stands for an Acronym. 'Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot' in Army Alphabet is 'WTF', which stands for 'What the F#@k'. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

I'm not sure about the Course Language Policy on this board so I'll keep things PG-13.

This is,

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

Over and Out.

Daxx · August 2002

If somebody has a problem with it, I use the pg version: What the Fuddle?

Hida_Tsuzua · August 2002

I've had players go DM on me when I'm commander and had to do it myself before (i.e. lost and no clue where my teammaters are). Usually at best, they kill one or two aliens like Bobs (espically if the aliens are having an off day) and then die. And I've never seen one take out a hive by himself (unless they get commander support and they don't run into any aliens, that's not really DMing). A DMing marine is an annoyence at best or a quick snack at worst, but never a "one man wins the game for the team".

Sgt_X · August 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Whiskey Tango Foxtrot @ Aug. 05 2002,15:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Daxx22 @ Aug. 05 2002,23<img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">LOL, somebody sign this guy up for the "Acronym Creator of the Week" award <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

GTs (Gametesters)
TFPS (Teamplay First Person Shooter)
The Commander Mode (COMODE)</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
*LoL* <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

It is an honour just to be nominated.

Even my Handle stands for an Acronym. 'Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot' in Army Alphabet is 'WTF', which stands for 'What the F#@k'. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

I'm not sure about the Course Language Policy on this board so I'll keep things PG-13.

This is,

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

Over and Out.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Keep it around PG 13, or so. Don't try to dodge the swear filter and if you're really mad just let it # out your words.

RhoadsToNowhere · August 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Whiskey Tango Foxtrot @ Aug. 05 2002,23:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">PS: I realize my acronym for Commander Mode (COMODE) sounds identical to the word Commode, which may seem insulting because a Commode is a toilet. I contend that it is negative to say the Commander Mode is a Toilet, in fact I consider it a compliment. Simply put, what would the world be like without toilets. Yes, the Commander Mode is a toilet, and that is a good thing.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I hereby motion that the Command Console should be changed to a futuristic, technological-looking toilet <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

humbaba · August 2002

Who knows, maybe the toilet of the future looks like the command chair. I personally would love ot have a toilet with motion tracking which closed up and was self contained, along with having pretty flashing buttons. . .

Longtooth · August 2002

I am so confused to many posts just "reinforce" one another and they are all so long! It hurts! Where is moleculor when you need him to helpfully shorten some posts to "Removed On Topic Post".

Sgt_X · August 2002

They were on topic though, besides it only takes 10 minutes at most to read them all.

HBNayr · August 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Whiskey Tango Foxtrot @ Aug. 05 2002,22:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I will definately allocate more brainstorm power to an idea I'm brewing on creating a good Pick-Up Game Site to ensure that Teamplayers will always have a good place to find fellow Teamplayers to play with whenever they get that NS urge.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Not necessarily a site or a server, but there is a nifty guild out there by the name of <a href="http://www3.telus.net/peaches/nsf/nsf.html" target="_blank">NSF</a>.

And as far as the COMODE thing goes, a toilet may be necessary for a commander if the aliens break through your defenses. It could be functional, no?

-Ryan!

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
-- Nietzsche

Sgt_X · August 2002

Which reminds me, i gotta check the email to see how many new sign up e-mail there are. BTW, I think I might need some help keeping track of stuff once NS comes out.

Longtooth · August 2002

Sgt X, I said "Removed on topic post" not "Removed off topic post"...why you ask? Because it confuses me.

Sgt_X · August 2002

Ok, what's the point then, why don't the moderaters just nuke the boards every 5 minutes. Why don't you just hang around a while and pick up their limits so you can stay inside them. Just be observant.

Scythe · August 2002

So <b>this</b> is what happens to a post that gets a useful answer in one go as opposed to a chain of demi-accurate two line posts! I like it!

Welcome Whisky Tango Foxtrot, glad to see a first time poster that picked a hole in the FAQ.

I hope there will be a bloody obvious message somewhere in NS or it's documentation, preferably in NS because eighty percent of people will plunge headlong into NS without even a glance at the Manual, that if you like DM join the aliens and if you like teamwork join the marines. I will cringe when a marine says: "This is worse than CS! I die too fudging quickly! THIS SUCKS AND I'M GONNA TELL ALL MY FRIENDS THAT IT DOES!" (Without the perfect spelling of course) But we can rest assured that he/she will tell no-one because a person like this is not likely to have friends.

Where was I... Ahh yes, Maybe the lack of an option to disable the displayage of the manual after installation is complete?

--Scythe--
<a href="mailto:the_only_scythe@subdimension.com">the_only_scythe@subdimension.com</a>

lazygamer · August 2002

Here's an idea. What happens when you have teamplay/deathmatch hybrid marines? Oxymoron? Well the concept is a few people decide to stick together AND comb the level looking for frags, not listening to the commander.(after the commander has armed them anyways)

MonsieurEvil · August 2002

My, this has been a great thread. Welcome WTF - you made a fine first impression.

Unknown · August 2002

Of course, then you have the people who want to play aliens, but also want teamplay. :)

I've played marines/humans in the past 10000000000000 games before this. I'm a bit tired of playing them. :)

GobyWan · August 2002

Whiskey's name didn't really hit me until MonsE called him "WTF". <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

Y'know, Science and Industry automatically opens the manual for you - NS could easily do the same. Also, you can put <span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:"red"'>"READ THE MANUAL FIRST!!!"</span></span> right on top so nobody skips over it.

Dm susceptability in ns

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