Gorges Are Running Rampant.
SilverWolf
Join Date: 2003-05-20 Member: 16540Members
Join Date: 2003-05-20 Member: 16540Members
Gorges have become a huge problem IMO. When people decide to get adrenaline, then gang up with 4 plus gorges it is next to impossible to kill them even with multiple marines focusing fire on them. Even shotties do next to nothing. Gorges only cost 10 res and you can go gorge right in the begginning of the game. Now think about this, gorge healspray stacks not only damage wise, but healing wise as well. Say you have 4 gorges, thats 64 damage all together per healspray (if all gorges are healing together) to the marines and 64 hp's healed all at the same time. Gorges heal quickly and there is pretty much nothing you can do about it. I think gorge healspray should not stack similar to how spores stacked. Either that or i think that gorges healspray should not do damage. I also believe gorge hp or armor, perhaps even both need to be toned down. Thoughts anyone?
Comments
Anyhow, Med spam is a pain yes, but an organized attack can overcome it, a gorge gang healing non stop is pretty much unstoppable unless they run over a pack of mines
maybe I can set a trend
actually I haven't noticed the gorge gang to be a problem, as grenades can counter it, and so do turrets, gorges can't do squat against turrets at one hive, except spit, and then the healing goes away because it's spitting, and I rarely see cooperation of a level of several gorges healing while one biles or spits etc on a pub
Now if theres skulks with the gorges then you are really in trouble, but shotties can usually take the skulks out of the equation. If there whole team is not in their hive, and 4 of them are slow gorges, you can easily rush their hive with shottys.
I think that the gorge rush is simply very valid, not over-powered. In clan matches, it can make a nice strategy anytime during game. Though early game its devastating.
There are nice counters to this, but the best is to be prepared for it. If you hear a lot of gestating at their hive as comm I usually drop a pack of mines and some shotguns.
Also, gorges are not the best structure killers until bilebomb. Turrets can go a long way to assisting you in defense.
It just takes more teamwork to play as marines, and it always will. I wish it would take as much to win as aliens, but there is still a larger margin for errors with the alien team than the marine. But NS is still awesome, even if that is true.
All you people who are acting so rude to silver wolf need to grow up.
As for it being powerful, so is a shotgun rush. Both even sacrifice economy (mostly because a gorge rush means less res for onos) for a chance at a win. Both even have counters. A lerk or two in time can pretty much thwart a shotty rush, and a few shotties and maybe some res to drop a siege if you don't react quickly enough for a gorge rush. It's fine.
Amen, on a pub game not to long ago I got the entire team to gorge rush on nothing. We dropped 3 movement and got adren, It was an 8 on 8 game and we used 2 skulks for assist purposes. When we first started the rush we ran into docking wing and got surrounded by the marine team. Being surrounded is what messed us up usually in a gorge rush you want fire to be on one gorge so you can all heal him. I think that gorges are good the way they are and that even large rushes can be stopped with good teamwork and statagy.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
DIE GORGY!
However, gorge gangs generally are very effective for three big reasons, which I think pts and vets mentioned during the beta. One, they keep your gorges alive while they waddle around the map... Packs of 2-3 marines can wipe out gorges all over the map, take out res nodes, etc, if they're not ganged up or protected by skulks... Which brings up the second advantage, namely that gorge gangs free skulks to ambush/delay/stop marines. And, finally, gangs allow rapid building, as well as more building... Rather than taking extra large amounts of time to put up a res node, you can put up a res and an oc in about half the time.
They're nice, and I wish I actually saw them more often... As it is, I often waddle around the map as a gorgie and pick up other gorgies to go move as a gang...
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So are Gorges.
They cost 10 res and do you have any Idea how slow RES comes in for a gorge without tonnes of RTS?
Med spam is something the commander can do anytime, anywhere, as much as he has the res to do.
You need a Gorge, to heal you, its slow with 1 gorge, he cant be everywhere at once and he can be killed!
Comming from a vet, I am very surprized at this thread.
Marines start with enough cash to give the entire team shotguns under most cases. And a SINGLE shot can kill an unupgraded gorge. So, what is there to complain about?
Obviously that limits them to clan games primarily, where one would hope the marines are good enough to focus fire and/or use shotties.
So my stance is that just like Gorge gangs need teamwork, the Marines need teamwork to beat Gorge gangs. With a skillful shotgunner, the Gorges will have lost 10+ resources each - while Marines lose maybe 10-30 on medpacks (assuming 4 gorges or more). Usually it isn't even that many medpacks. Attacking Gorge gangs doesn't mean that all the Marines run straight at them and into the healspray. Marines attack from different angles, so they don't all take damage (I believe that there is a certain point to the side of a gorge where healspray doesn't work, since you can't heal anybody behind you - you have to look at them). Gorge gangs aren't invincible - Marines just need to smarten up.
Agreed.
So my stance is that just like Gorge gangs need teamwork, the Marines need teamwork to beat Gorge gangs. With a skillful shotgunner, the Gorges will have lost 10+ resources each - while Marines lose maybe 10-30 on medpacks (assuming 4 gorges or more). Usually it isn't even that many medpacks. Attacking Gorge gangs doesn't mean that all the Marines run straight at them and into the healspray. Marines attack from different angles, so they don't all take damage (I believe that there is a certain point to the side of a gorge where healspray doesn't work, since you can't heal anybody behind you - you have to look at them). Gorge gangs aren't invincible - Marines just need to smarten up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well Said!
I think this discussion is done with.
The points have been made!
I'm asking you why you think they way you do, do you agree first off? if so why? if not why? etc, back up your reasoning with logic and facts. Thankyou.
As the gorges advance at you, concentrate fire on the gorges running in the background. As there is no Gorge behind them to heal while facing forward, the front gorges either have to turn around, blocking the group cause moving backwards is slower than forwards, or they risk loosing their own support. So: If they don't turn around, the gorges die, beginning with the one being last. If they turn around the front ones can no longer damage your rines, so you don't need as many medpacks and can just keep on firing. This is concentrated fire, as said before, but this here is a little bit more special ^^
And because of you're higher point of view you can shoot right over the front gorges, cause they are not so big in height ^^
30 res for the towers...
10 res per gorge..lets say 4 do it...40 res
2 res per adren 8 res
So by my count that's 78 rez spent to gorge rush for 4.
Can be countered by one pack of mines at one hive...
At 2 hives...well that's not really a rush...
At mid-game/tier2 tech stage, this is an irrelevant topic. Turrets and upgrades, maybe heavy weapons, make it a nonissue.
Only in the opening minutes is this tactic viable.
And then, the gorge rush is a valid tactic. It is just powerful enough to be so.
Overpowered?
Hardly.
Note: Using an actual naked gorge rush will be totally and UTTERLY ineffective against a competant team. Marines don't need to stand in their base and take you on - they can move out and cap the map. Gorges will take an hour to kill their IP, if they even bother to construct one. Yes, that is the level of contempt that an over aggressive gorge rush can be treated with - avoidence.
That said, when you have a skulk or two thrown into the mix, it suddenly becomes a potent strategy.
We have won two wars in the last month using my variation on the gorge rush theme - the 'Drush' - 3 aliens gorge instantly and drop DCs, the other 3 run to near marine spawn. Any attempted migration is followed but not engaged. When the marines base is located, those skulks then gorge sneakily, and the original gorges skulkify and attack. The three combat gorges run in behind and heal, dropping OCs around. Even if the force is battered back, the OCs will have to be dealt with, at least slowing the marines.
Variations include altering the number of start gorges/skulks, or using DCs on the offense, or even movements (adren is wonderful, but nerfed celerity vs carapace to shotty threat with the reduced cost of marine migrations in 201d means that we won't try this variant any time again).
THAT is a viable tactic. However, it is complex enough, and counterable enough, to be totally balanced and fair.
Case in point:
We tried it against XxX, I think it was, and got burned badly. Anticipating it, a few early shotties totally ripped us up. In disarray and severely damaged economically, only because it was a 2.0 server were we able to pull the game back from the brink - and only after 35 minutes <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> I mean heck, with noone with any res, and no hive or gorges....bad.
No. Cycling the gorges so that the damage is spread out, knowing when/if to drop OCs, deciding where to group and when to attack where... that requires teamwork.
As for marine counters, there is no imbalance. Two packs of mines, two shotties and a little medspam is enough to stop all but the largest gorge rush cold.
Any tatic that counters the gorg rush seems to be based on ONE factor : That there is a sustantiable number of mairnes in base,you have resource left to get shottys for these people and you know the gorg rush is going to happen.Now since most of the time its only the base guard in base and the rest of the marines far,far away from base.....
Btw ive never seen a shotty rush work on our servers.Yes even with scrims and everyone who is a vet.All the skulks do is simple : sit at corner,marine walks pass,CHOMP CHOMP 10 res gone,skulk down,repeat all the way back to the hive,sorta like guerilla warfare,marines lose all shottys then its game over.