It's Always The Commander's Fault...
Starlude
Join Date: 2003-09-05 Member: 20576Members
Join Date: 2003-09-05 Member: 20576Members
<div class="IPBDescription">or is it?</div> on a lot of pubs recently I've seen a lot of "it's our commander's fault. He was a ****, he shoulda done this, he shoulda done that". Well first of all, your looking at it from hindsight, which is not always 200% accurate, maybe if you did that, it still wouldn't have worked. Maybe that strat is just something you don't like.
But also, it may be your marine team. It's not just the commanders who are at fault for losing a game. While a big burden of responsability lies to a commander to respond quickly and effeciently, and make lighting quick decisions that may effect indeed the outcome of the game, the marines under the commander's command need to be good also.
While it is true that this is indeed a team based game, SKILL, both team and individual sill play a great role. Example: This guy has supurb aim as a marine, and those annoying strafing, wall climbing celerity skulks are ripping your team appart. This one guy can hit that skulk with that one extra bullet that will kill it. Not only gaining you res, but denying the skulk the res they woulda gotten from a kill: and allowing you to simply drop a medpack or two and have your men/team move on, rather than suffering from a more and more depleted force.
Being able to carry out a commander's orders and plans are just as important as the plans themsevles. You can have the grandest winning strat in the world, but it won't work if your group of 6 marines simply gets owned by 2 good skulks. Why these situations come about is a combination of a number of factors on pubs, but the bottom line is a good commander needs good marines. I am sick and tired of seeing the marines blame things on the commander, and often feel sorry for the commander, who tries his best with marines that just cannot aim, or do not know how to stand guard while someone else is building a structure/knifing an enemy structure.
a good <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> with good <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> wins games for a commander.
Why all the comm flaming? Do people need someone to blame? I really am sick and tired of hearing it on pubs. "We lost! it's all the commanders fault!" Oh you mean it wasn't your fault when you and your two friends died to that one skulk attacking a RT?
A little bit of ability on both sides goes a long way. While it is true that I have seen some truely idioic things from commanders, most of them have a firm grasp of basic strategy. The only real problem is a lack of marines to work with. While it is true some strats are more demanding of skilled marines, and I suppose it is up to the commander to choose a strat and playstyle and the very beginning, I can't possibly justify seeing all the commander flaming going on at the end of a game. Why can't people be nicer?
But also, it may be your marine team. It's not just the commanders who are at fault for losing a game. While a big burden of responsability lies to a commander to respond quickly and effeciently, and make lighting quick decisions that may effect indeed the outcome of the game, the marines under the commander's command need to be good also.
While it is true that this is indeed a team based game, SKILL, both team and individual sill play a great role. Example: This guy has supurb aim as a marine, and those annoying strafing, wall climbing celerity skulks are ripping your team appart. This one guy can hit that skulk with that one extra bullet that will kill it. Not only gaining you res, but denying the skulk the res they woulda gotten from a kill: and allowing you to simply drop a medpack or two and have your men/team move on, rather than suffering from a more and more depleted force.
Being able to carry out a commander's orders and plans are just as important as the plans themsevles. You can have the grandest winning strat in the world, but it won't work if your group of 6 marines simply gets owned by 2 good skulks. Why these situations come about is a combination of a number of factors on pubs, but the bottom line is a good commander needs good marines. I am sick and tired of seeing the marines blame things on the commander, and often feel sorry for the commander, who tries his best with marines that just cannot aim, or do not know how to stand guard while someone else is building a structure/knifing an enemy structure.
a good <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> with good <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> wins games for a commander.
Why all the comm flaming? Do people need someone to blame? I really am sick and tired of hearing it on pubs. "We lost! it's all the commanders fault!" Oh you mean it wasn't your fault when you and your two friends died to that one skulk attacking a RT?
A little bit of ability on both sides goes a long way. While it is true that I have seen some truely idioic things from commanders, most of them have a firm grasp of basic strategy. The only real problem is a lack of marines to work with. While it is true some strats are more demanding of skilled marines, and I suppose it is up to the commander to choose a strat and playstyle and the very beginning, I can't possibly justify seeing all the commander flaming going on at the end of a game. Why can't people be nicer?
Comments
To me, it's like having the lead guitarist in a band slaughter a note; the rest of the band can put down their equipment and yell at the guitarist while the audience watches, or they can work around the problem and keep on rocking. People _do_ make mistakes, no matter how hard they try not to.
<i>Why can't people be nicer?</i>
I have witnessed so much flaming striked upon players that it would make a match jealous. However, there are a couple of nice gamers out there who are willing to help (just had a nice fellow help me learn how to comm a few minutes ago) as well as willing to listen, unfortunately they are a rare breed.
To be honest, it's just like you said, Starlude, "a good <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> with good <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> wins games for a commander".
But what about the times, when comm really DOES suck?
A few days ago I played a game (can't remember the name, but it has 'Holoroom' <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ) where the beginning went good. Then for some reason the comm quit, and a new one replaced him. Soon resources started gathering, but the comm did nothing. He built massive turretfarms everywhere, when we told him to use resources (no sieges!). Soon he left the comm chair for a while. I rushed in, gave welders and started building TF near a hive to siege it. But soon the team voted me out and the same comm returned to his chair to gather resources. He also sold my almost-advanced-TF and said: "Don't use our res, you f*****g moron! We need those". Our teammembers started quiting after realizing that they could propably find better servers. And we lost the game due to uneven teams (which sucks)...
Would it have been justified to call that comm a "f*****g s**t faced a*****e"?
Ahhhh yes typical marine response.....
or, for this situation "The team is only as good as your weakest marine/alien"
It always happens: I command and i get 1 person who can aim, and the others who get lucky kills
I usually end up losing because 1 skulk owns half the team before he gets killed.
basically, the team's strength isn't determined by its strongest player, but rather, thier weakest
This sounds like maybe the com left the chair, just the time for him to reach a relocated base/CC. So he considered that you were breaking to pieces his strategy, as you were spending the rez he accumulated in order to do something else, in line of sight of his strategy.
Still, it wasn't very clever to be rude, instead he should have explained what you did wrong: it's always bad for the moral of the troops to see that the CC is empty... So jumping in, even if you do nothing but respond to the marine's cries for help (droping some medpacks and ammo truly should not blow up any strategy, as long as it's not a medspam) was, IMO, a good thing.
I already did it a time or two: the com jumped out, I asked twice where he was, and as I had no answers, I jumped in.
I started to just assist people, as I know that sometimes the com just is moving to it's new remote CC.
Then if he asks me to leave, I surely do, because he was certainly having a masterplan in order to achieve victory, and so should be left comming in order to do so.
I didn't blown up his strategy as I didn't spend too much of his rez, and I helped keeping the marines alive during the time he was away from the CC, so the team wasn't amputated from it's support-provider during this time.
Just make sure to ask a couple of times before jumping in the CC.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"The team is only as good as your weakest marine/alien"
It always happens: I command and i get 1 person who can aim, and the others who get lucky kills <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see your point, and it's a truly valid one.
But as I'm always saying, the true point in playing a game isn't to find absolute victory but to have fun. I remember times when I was comming with a high number of newly introduced players to NS, and this had still been very enjoyable, even if they were not the best shots I've ever seen.
Still, they tried to understand (somehow) how the game was working and what I was wanting them to do.
Whatever may happen, just don't worry, and have fun. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It isn't always the comm's fault,sometimes the idiots are to blame <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
On the map with reactor room, Started as 1 on 1. Secured base. Went to sat comm, built a tf, couple turrets and killed hive. 1st, he joins game. Immediatly gets in CC and drops himself a shotgun and welder, right as i was about to build the rt. Then he goes off somewhere and sat comm falls to a fade. Then, he was in RR. I told him to stay, he goes away and makes me spend res on his butt since he just HAD to kill this 1 oc. I tell him to go back, he rambos off, finds another oc...etc...then he was outside MS and found another one. He was finnaly going to rr!!!111! But he decides to take 2 min detroying an oc. wasting 10 res on ammo and health (armory was 20 yds away...). I advised him to go through the door 10 ft away...fade sneaks up and kills him. We lose.
[OFFTOPIC] Also, people have been getting kinda nubbish. "Oh no, not marine! I'll lose for sure! Bye guys! I don't wanna lose!" This really annoys me. And why do aliens always get stacked? No marines leave yet it ends up 5 vs 7... Is winning that important to people on pubs?[/OFFTOPIC]
If the commander is great, and the marines can't survive long enough to get anything done, you still lose. You simply won't win if you camp MS all game, either on purpose or because you die the moment you leave. Both cruddy marines and exceptional kharaa can cause this problem.
The CC isn't property of any player -otherwise players wouldn't be able to kick a commander out of it, since it would be it's property once he has humped in.
So the word "steal" doesn't fit here I think.
And look, if a guy who was in CC jumps out, then he's no longer the commander, but the average marine like any other player. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
The game itself was designed like that.
Still, it's best to ask before jumping in a vacant Command Console, for sure.
I've seen games where marines were just doing fine, then the com disappears for some reasons (some real-life errands to run, or socializing needed to be done certainly), and the marine lost because no-one jumped in the CC fast enough.
That's not the first topic on that, I've already read one like that.
One thing too, would be to look at the teamchat loggs as usually, the com will say that he'll leave the chair then move to the new one.
Just make sure to pay attention.
I was playing on a swedish (my home country, good ping) server and was comm. I gave my marines a waypoint to a double res called Atmo (short and nice).
On their way they didnt see one single alien.
So we started to build tf and rt.
Suddenly, one skulk comes, 3 marines dies, and when
i trie to get them back they cant hit those aliens and we loose it hard.
This continues all game.
They cant even kill a skulk when they were 5 marines at once.
If you see those marines aim, you would start to cry, trust me.
When we are loosing, guess what, they complain on ME. The Comm.
I said that its not my fault, its you who cant follow your waypoint, build what you should and
aim at those god dam aliens!
Then this whining starts, "we arent noobs, you are the noob comm you made us loose" aso.
I hate to play on public with noob marines that cant move to their wp, build and aim at aliens.
Im kinda sick of pub servers.. they always seem like a waist of time, but i dont know many people enuff to get into private servers, nor do i have the money to start up a clan or host a server for me and friends etc.
But anyways.. When an entire team looses, its the ENTIRE teams fault. Cry a river and build a bridge. ladeda.
That is a good quote.
When my team can't aim and ALWAYS get slaughtered on the way to the waypoint I reduce the boldness of my strat if they still get pwned I say 'sorry if you can't kill any skulks then we are going to lose, but I will do my best'.
hehe
that was a good laugh among these posts...just to keep scrolling down and see this in bold..
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Bin there done that got the T-shirt
You can't win if noone's in the comm chair.
You can't win if noone follows the commander.
You can't win if the commander doesn't have a good plan.
You can't win if the marines can't effectivly follow the commander's plan.
Before you start blaming one or the other, ask yourself why the marines lost. Poor plan, or poor execution?
simple points: No plan is infallible, no team is infallible. In a public game the factors to consider are not only vast but half of them are impossible to notice from only one side.
True, a game can be lost because of low quality marines OR a poor commander. The commander is sometimes blamed when he shouldn't be. Who do you direct your general angriness at when your country is going down the crapper? The leader. It's easy because everyone knows about him, and he's supposed to make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen. Perhaps the people aren't working hard enough to improve the country, but the leader will get blamed. He carries the most responsibility and power. It may not be his fault - a succesful country is everyone's bussiness.
People get angry with good comms. Comms get angry with poor frontiersman. It's just the way of life, and there's no good way to agree on whose fault it is. Constructive criticism without any of the normal barbs is the only way the team will get better. You're just wasting your breath yelling at people. Is your comm going to become magically better if you yell lots? No. Will your players suddenly be able to shoot the skulks raining from the ceiling? I really doubt it. If you think your criticism would be helpful feel free. If all else fails just try some different servers.
Although the ultimate solution is to find better (perferabily private) servers =p
I think if you don't try you will never learn <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
So what happened most times...
I give waypoints and i write all the time "STAY GROUPED NEVER GO ALONE"
but nobody's cares to listen...
Marines running arround everywhere alone...
Finnaly i get a group of marines together and move to a keylocation..
I do my strat and i got the big oversight.
what happens?
Marines start b****ing arround "N00b comm don'T build tf here bla bla" and while they whine arround they get beaten up by a single skulk and the tf is lost..
And then it's the comm's fault lol
I really hate it, these ppl who think they know allways anything better than the comm. If they do so why didn't they go comm?
Most ppl don't get the concept behind the comm and marine thing.
Marines are supposed to follow the comm's orders and not to yell arround.
I think there should be something implented to give the comm more control over his men (something like slap ^^) maybe than they would get it who gives the orders.
But if it stays this way you get all the times this sort of players who stay in base all the time and yell for shotguns. This suxx even more there are idiots who start yelling for HA after the first amory is up <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
and marines without aim suck even more... you can medspam them to death they still won't kill anything cuz they shoot all their bullets into the wall...
I think it's more the marine teams fault than the comm's if a game is lost.
The comm can only give orders and nothing more.
It's up to the marines to follow these orders and get things done.
As long as nobody follows any orders you can't blame the comm for it cuz he can't do anything against it...
or what should he do?
The only thing you can do about such ppl is not to give them any medpacks or equipment.. sooner or later they will get it (most time they don't get it)
If i feel the need to get mean i just start dropping buildings on marines i hate to stuck them ^^
That's about the only thing you can really do about them <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I only wish every game was like this one where we stuck together and eventually smashed away the aliens with heavy armor and shotguns like scythes to weat *drools*. Oh well at least I'll always have the screen shots I took *sniff*