TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
<!--QuoteBegin--Maveric+Sep 14 2003, 06:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maveric @ Sep 14 2003, 06:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Talesin+Sep 14 2003, 06:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Sep 14 2003, 06:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Know your hardware, tweak it to work properly, and <b>you have an advantage.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That was my point... Others might not have that advantage of good [or properly configured] hardware. Some of the players in been against play in 640x480 or 800x600, you know, not all that good resolution to see enemies with... [And arn't you going to lay the hurt on Ziggy for calling me a nub? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then they should take the time to learn their gear, and set it up to perform as intended. Including setting a 'nominal' gamma, getting it as close to 1.0 as possible. It's an advantage gained by putting out *actual* effort to improve your rig... anyone can do it, if they take the time. Most don't. Their choice. The thing is, even with a well-configured machine, unless you're alert you can still miss the telltales. For example, I didn't notice the Onos until he was well past the doorway, and sneaking toward a teammate.
[Given that it was 'nub' and not 'n00b', and that he ended with <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> , I'd take it as being said in a joking fashion. If he was serious, (n00b! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> ) I'd have given a rebuke. But of the two, I'd be more likely to point at your own comment intimating that those who can see cloaked Kharaa are cheaters.]
Cloaked aliens are easier to see if you're looking for them.
Second, by going sensory they're relying on sneak ambushes. Lvl 1 armour puts a stop to that - you've one bite of time more to fire off a burst to warn the team. Or perhaps you can concentrate on firepower and bounce right into their hive.
Sure, the aliens COULD build a sens network and OC nests, but that costs a lot of res.... res probably better spent on a second hive or RTs. If the aliens manage to lock you into your base with cloaked OC walls then tbh I think there's been a serious strategic flaw on the part of the marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--ZiGGY^+Sep 14 2003, 07:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZiGGY^ @ Sep 14 2003, 07:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I find that most respectable players can see cloaked skulks regardless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> no they cant...not if the cloaked players have any skill...
<!--QuoteBegin--robke+Sep 15 2003, 11:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (robke @ Sep 15 2003, 11:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> of course they can. you can't get 'skilled at cloaking'. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd love to know how though O_o
Fighting sensory requires more teamwork on the marine side, as well as the aliens. If you pull it off as aliens, then you're golden and the game is yours. However, if the marines keep their cool and fight it well, then you're so completely screwed it's not funny.
Combating it just requires that your com scans, you cover each other REALLY well, move in groups, and keep the voice chatter to the minimum so that you can hear. That last one is probably the most important out of all of them. If you can't see them, you have to use hearing, just like if you can't hear them you get motion. A disability in one sense requires more ability in the others.
Of course, randomly spamming bullets everywhere works well too, I guess.
<!--QuoteBegin--#Ha.Ze-+Sep 14 2003, 06:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (#Ha.Ze- @ Sep 14 2003, 06:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think the solution to this is to lower the cost of observitorys, then raise the energy "price" it takes to scan. More observitorys this way, and the same amount of scanning. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Good suggestion.
Sensory chambers are damn powerful when used correctly. I'm surprised that so few players are aware of their benefits. I don't think their overpowered, except that I feel the counter to them (observatories) should be a bit easier to bring to bear.
Since building observatories near claoked stuff will result in that unprotected Observatory eventually being killed, it makes sense to lower the cost.
<!--QuoteBegin--Axehilt+Sep 15 2003, 02:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Axehilt @ Sep 15 2003, 02:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--#Ha.Ze-+Sep 14 2003, 06:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (#Ha.Ze- @ Sep 14 2003, 06:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think the solution to this is to lower the cost of observitorys, then raise the energy "price" it takes to scan. More observitorys this way, and the same amount of scanning. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good suggestion.
Sensory chambers are damn powerful when used correctly. I'm surprised that so few players are aware of their benefits. I don't think their overpowered, except that I feel the counter to them (observatories) should be a bit easier to bring to bear.
Since building observatories near claoked stuff will result in that unprotected Observatory eventually being killed, it makes sense to lower the cost. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In that case I'd reduce the effetive range of the observatory anti-cloak field as well. If you don't it'd be too easy to make half the map sensory-proof.
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited September 2003
Sensory is not overpowered in clan play. The reason that aliens have an advantage in clan play is because of fades. Therefor, most clans choose defense first as it is the most beneficial to the fade. We choose movement first because, well, we just like it better. It may not be as good as defense but it really improves gorges and we like being able to go to a hive if its under attack. But the point is, if you get sensory chambers vs a good clan, that will probably hurt your overall game. You wont have defense which is very beneficial and may be even considered essential for 99.99% of fades. You wont have movement which is important for guarding your hives and is an extremely beneficial skill for just about every alien class. You will have sensory, which is easily counterable by any half decent commander.
And for the record, most good players _can_ see and track cloaked aliens, just like a good starcraft player can easily see and track a dark templar or cloaked wraith. As long as your model exists, no matter how clear it is, any alert player will be able to detect movement. Not to mention that an unorthodox player who's playing with low quality texures and crazy high gamma and just about any advantage they "legally" can get can _probably_ see cloaked aliens without any problem at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In that case I'd reduce the effetive range of the observatory anti-cloak field as well. If you don't it'd be too easy to make half the map sensory-proof. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, Observatories don't really detect in a huge radius in their current state. Also, any Observatory not protected by an outpost is going to die in less than 10 seconds to a single skulk and is not likely to provide anti-cloak for very long (aliens know when they're being detected). Given that marines can only build so many outposts, it wouldn't really ruin Sensories.
If anything, I wouldn't mind reducing the hitpoints on the observatory in conjunction with a cost reduction as well as the previously suggested increase in Scan energy cost. That way, Observatories would need a large amount of defense to provide any sort of prolonged defense against cloaking.
Perhaps multiple Sensory chambers should help "push" against an Observatory's detection radius. So if a team manages to get 4+ Sensories up near a marine base, aliens can get really close to the observatory before being detected. I definitely want to see Sensories as an effective upgrade chamber to invest in.
I die a lot more to invisible skulks with scattered sensories around than to carapace skulks. I'm kind of surprised to hear that they're 'weak' in clan games. With a smart spread of these things across the map, an expert skulk can easily dispatch an expert marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--CaL_FiN+Sep 14 2003, 04:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CaL_FiN @ Sep 14 2003, 04:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But it is also the only chamber that can be totally countered; the marines just have to start dropping observatories in all the mini bases which nulligates (real word?) cloak.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't nulligate it in early game, without draw-backs. Another point is that you need an obs + MT which is costly when you need to upgrade weapons/defend hives etc.
It takes a serious + alert commander to counter SC, which isn't the case with MC/DC, so it seems imbalanced to me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If they get sensory chambers first, you don't need weapons upgrades so quickly. Spend the res you normal spend on weapons upgrades for motion tracking.
no offence to the guys saying more obs and stuff but sensory is seriously weak against a clued up commander and marines; MC/DC guarantees certain results while SC is as good as rolling dice. I'll agree that aliens still have the edge in publics but weakening what's regarded as their weakest chamber will just further reinforce the old D/M/S or M/D/S chamber orders.
easiest solution to it is either motion tracking or an aimbot (<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->), either will reveal the alien.
Actually I was playing yesterday, and some dude was tracking me with shots while I was within cloaking range of a sensory chamber, they didn't have motion.
<!--QuoteBegin--Maveric+Sep 14 2003, 07:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maveric @ Sep 14 2003, 07:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--ZiGGY^+Sep 14 2003, 05:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZiGGY^ @ Sep 14 2003, 05:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I find that most respectable players can see cloaked skulks regardless. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *cough*cheaters*cough*
honestly, the only way for you to see a cloaked anything is if it is in water or is standing between you and a free res nozle. sure you can see them after lots of practice and going slow, taking time examining the area, etc; but im sure some of that practice includes turning your gamma up to near white-out conditions.
really, if cloaking is getting on your nerves just plop down a obs, tf, and 3 turrets. 2 if you electrify the TF. and all this in a area the size of 4 tightly-bunched up marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> not really
altho a cloaked alien will likely escape, if he happens to be moving in front of me I will see him. Not clear enough to aim well, and he can easily hide somewhere still.
Some people vouch for the flashlight. I believe them, but all it does for me is when the light is blocked by a cloaked chamber.
I posted some stuff regarding 2.01e sensory <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=47307' target='_blank'>here</a>.
It is really hard to see for sure if a skulk is in front of you, even moving, unless they are just out of biting range. Someone needs to go take pictures of cloaked skulks in light and dark rooms (I'd do it, but I'd need someone cooperative to help me, since I can't take pictures third person). Cloaked onos aren't that bad, because they're still huge and the distortions they make are somewhat obvious.
MT does not work well against cloak. A cloaked kharaa in LOS of you will not display the MT blip. You still have to scan.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
It isn't the cloaking that's easy to see.. a blinking light nearby will usually be enough to get me to miss a cloaked Skulk. It's when they're in MOTION that they become much more detectable. Even walking Skulks will be picked up by a decent Marine.
Yeah, you can pick up a skulk if you're paying close attention. There just isn't enough attention to go around to deal with the threat.
Voicecomms + the annoying blue wp blocking half your screen + a bunch of noisy marines that you're trying to keep together provide general distraction, and then you're quite screwed when there's more than one skulk. I'm not concerned so much that they're hard to see, but that they're a squeak too hard to see, espescially when you probably should be able to see them (like standing under a lamp).
Or, the skulk can just not move until you're right on him. It's pretty close to impossible to see them then, at least until you've already lost your ankles.
i think that the marines should have a chance of actively searching out cloaked skulks. They can only do it passively except for scan, and do it rather poorly at that. Scanning is not designed for the level of use 2.01e requires, either. Even when a marine thinks he spots a cloaked kharaa, the comm probably doesn't have the energy to spare and the marine will probably be dead by the time he's heard, anyways.
I definitely don't want them nerfing cloak in regards to how visible you are while moving or standing under lights. That stuff is fine. It's just that the marines don't seem to have a reliable way to counter it.
I stick with my original suggestions: reduce the cost of Observatories, and then reduce Observatory hitpoints and increase energy cost of scanning to compensate.
Comments
That was my point... Others might not have that advantage of good [or properly configured] hardware. Some of the players in been against play in 640x480 or 800x600, you know, not all that good resolution to see enemies with...
[And arn't you going to lay the hurt on Ziggy for calling me a nub? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then they should take the time to learn their gear, and set it up to perform as intended. Including setting a 'nominal' gamma, getting it as close to 1.0 as possible. It's an advantage gained by putting out *actual* effort to improve your rig... anyone can do it, if they take the time. Most don't. Their choice. The thing is, even with a well-configured machine, unless you're alert you can still miss the telltales. For example, I didn't notice the Onos until he was well past the doorway, and sneaking toward a teammate.
[Given that it was 'nub' and not 'n00b', and that he ended with <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> , I'd take it as being said in a joking fashion. If he was serious, (n00b! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> ) I'd have given a rebuke. But of the two, I'd be more likely to point at your own comment intimating that those who can see cloaked Kharaa are cheaters.]
Second, by going sensory they're relying on sneak ambushes. Lvl 1 armour puts a stop to that - you've one bite of time more to fire off a burst to warn the team. Or perhaps you can concentrate on firepower and bounce right into their hive.
Sure, the aliens COULD build a sens network and OC nests, but that costs a lot of res.... res probably better spent on a second hive or RTs. If the aliens manage to lock you into your base with cloaked OC walls then tbh I think there's been a serious strategic flaw on the part of the marines.
no they cant...not if the cloaked players have any skill...
I'd love to know how though O_o
Combating it just requires that your com scans, you cover each other REALLY well, move in groups, and keep the voice chatter to the minimum so that you can hear. That last one is probably the most important out of all of them. If you can't see them, you have to use hearing, just like if you can't hear them you get motion. A disability in one sense requires more ability in the others.
Of course, randomly spamming bullets everywhere works well too, I guess.
Good suggestion.
Sensory chambers are damn powerful when used correctly. I'm surprised that so few players are aware of their benefits. I don't think their overpowered, except that I feel the counter to them (observatories) should be a bit easier to bring to bear.
Since building observatories near claoked stuff will result in that unprotected Observatory eventually being killed, it makes sense to lower the cost.
Good suggestion.
Sensory chambers are damn powerful when used correctly. I'm surprised that so few players are aware of their benefits. I don't think their overpowered, except that I feel the counter to them (observatories) should be a bit easier to bring to bear.
Since building observatories near claoked stuff will result in that unprotected Observatory eventually being killed, it makes sense to lower the cost. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In that case I'd reduce the effetive range of the observatory anti-cloak field as well. If you don't it'd be too easy to make half the map sensory-proof.
And for the record, most good players _can_ see and track cloaked aliens, just like a good starcraft player can easily see and track a dark templar or cloaked wraith. As long as your model exists, no matter how clear it is, any alert player will be able to detect movement. Not to mention that an unorthodox player who's playing with low quality texures and crazy high gamma and just about any advantage they "legally" can get can _probably_ see cloaked aliens without any problem at all.
Well, Observatories don't really detect in a huge radius in their current state. Also, any Observatory not protected by an outpost is going to die in less than 10 seconds to a single skulk and is not likely to provide anti-cloak for very long (aliens know when they're being detected). Given that marines can only build so many outposts, it wouldn't really ruin Sensories.
If anything, I wouldn't mind reducing the hitpoints on the observatory in conjunction with a cost reduction as well as the previously suggested increase in Scan energy cost. That way, Observatories would need a large amount of defense to provide any sort of prolonged defense against cloaking.
Perhaps multiple Sensory chambers should help "push" against an Observatory's detection radius. So if a team manages to get 4+ Sensories up near a marine base, aliens can get really close to the observatory before being detected. I definitely want to see Sensories as an effective upgrade chamber to invest in.
I die a lot more to invisible skulks with scattered sensories around than to carapace skulks. I'm kind of surprised to hear that they're 'weak' in clan games. With a smart spread of these things across the map, an expert skulk can easily dispatch an expert marine.
You can't nulligate it in early game, without draw-backs. Another point is that you need an obs + MT which is costly when you need to upgrade weapons/defend hives etc.
It takes a serious + alert commander to counter SC, which isn't the case with MC/DC, so it seems imbalanced to me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they get sensory chambers first, you don't need weapons upgrades so quickly. Spend the res you normal spend on weapons upgrades for motion tracking.
I'll agree that aliens still have the edge in publics but weakening what's regarded as their weakest chamber will just further reinforce the old D/M/S or M/D/S chamber orders.
Heck I'd say sensory needs redesigned <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually I was playing yesterday, and some dude was tracking me with shots while I was within cloaking range of a sensory chamber, they didn't have motion.
It was pretty funny.
*cough*cheaters*cough*
honestly, the only way for you to see a cloaked anything is if it is in water or is standing between you and a free res nozle. sure you can see them after lots of practice and going slow, taking time examining the area, etc; but im sure some of that practice includes turning your gamma up to near white-out conditions.
really, if cloaking is getting on your nerves just plop down a obs, tf, and 3 turrets. 2 if you electrify the TF. and all this in a area the size of 4 tightly-bunched up marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
not really
altho a cloaked alien will likely escape, if he happens to be moving in front of me I will see him. Not clear enough to aim well, and he can easily hide somewhere still.
Some people vouch for the flashlight. I believe them, but all it does for me is when the light is blocked by a cloaked chamber.
It is really hard to see for sure if a skulk is in front of you, even moving, unless they are just out of biting range. Someone needs to go take pictures of cloaked skulks in light and dark rooms (I'd do it, but I'd need someone cooperative to help me, since I can't take pictures third person). Cloaked onos aren't that bad, because they're still huge and the distortions they make are somewhat obvious.
MT does not work well against cloak. A cloaked kharaa in LOS of you will not display the MT blip. You still have to scan.
Voicecomms + the annoying blue wp blocking half your screen + a bunch of noisy marines that you're trying to keep together provide general distraction, and then you're quite screwed when there's more than one skulk. I'm not concerned so much that they're hard to see, but that they're a squeak too hard to see, espescially when you probably should be able to see them (like standing under a lamp).
Or, the skulk can just not move until you're right on him. It's pretty close to impossible to see them then, at least until you've already lost your ankles.
i think that the marines should have a chance of actively searching out cloaked skulks. They can only do it passively except for scan, and do it rather poorly at that. Scanning is not designed for the level of use 2.01e requires, either. Even when a marine thinks he spots a cloaked kharaa, the comm probably doesn't have the energy to spare and the marine will probably be dead by the time he's heard, anyways.
I stick with my original suggestions: reduce the cost of Observatories, and then reduce Observatory hitpoints and increase energy cost of scanning to compensate.