like has been said before (yes, I actually read the <b>whole</b> thread!! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) it rips out the unique gameplay elements of NS.
now, this is fine, I still can choose to play "classic NS", so I'm not too worried about that.
however, the idea that NS:C will be a good introduction to NS for new players..? I seriously doubt it.
I like the idea. I would like to see the maps extend beyond the typical style though. I don't think the space station layout really fits with this style gameplay. Seems like it would be kinda of boring. I read the mapping requirments and think it sounds ok. One thing I'd like to see is an expanded sense of major battle rather than a tiny space ship.
Once a team gets upgrades and the other team does not get as good an upgrade, they're going to continually be on the loosing end of the stick, after the first two-three rounds, you'll for sure know who the victor will be.
If you thought people F4'ing now was bad, wait until your team starts to get a slight lead in this mode.
How will marines be healed? otherwise the aliens could just harrass them till they run out of hitpoints.
Will regeneration be the only means of healing for aliens? especially if the gorge is yanked? If so, regeneration will be the upgrade most will use. Without a healing post, redemption is essentially useless and with caraphase, what's the point of living slightly longer in a fight when you end up with little health afterwards? Except for fades, who can use Cara too, just make it regeneration only, the other two upgrades aren't worth the points.
Pheromones... do anyone even use those? Movement chamber is pretty solid, at least. Perhaps, as a counter to marines essentially having a never-ending supply of res, let aliens be able to buy *all* the upgrades on all the chambers, or randomly pick 4-5 of the total nine.
As a skulk, I'd certainly stop running around the map and find myself a dark corner to hide in until a marine passes by, since there's no need for me close the distance anymore. I'm not protecting anything but myself.
As a lerk, I'd just hang far back with regeneration and spikes and spores until I could get onos.
What about "degrading" upgrades? If one upgrade is good for one alien class, it doesn't mean I want it on another, and if I have to remutate when I change class, will I be compensated for it?
What about critical mass? it could fracture the server population and kill off the current ns_* gamemode.
If it stays largely within the current ruleset, here's what I foresee.
Marines will focus on getting shotgun and armor level 1. To counter this, aliens will switch to lerks in order to be able to stay far away from the shotguns. Marines work on getting HA, which renders spores useless and aliens will go for onos. Fade will not be used much due to dying easily to shotguns and requiring to be up close an personal to kill a marine. If you don't die, you're more likely to win the round and thus, regeneration and a distance weapon (lerk) or regeneration and being a meatshield (onos) is the better choices.
And the GL isn't of much use either, since it is primarily anti-structures. What about mines?
And as a personal comment, it's definitively not my cup of tea.
<!--QuoteBegin--Stakhanov+Sep 16 2003, 08:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stakhanov @ Sep 16 2003, 08:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here's the current integration process of newbies :
-new NS players are generally lazy. -the dumbest of them (known as "NSPlayer"s) leave as they don't understand **** , others stay for a while and understand the basic objectives of the game. -the lazier ones ("noobs") eventually leave , the last newbies remaining slowly learn the game. -newbies turn into elitist veterans. -new NS enthusiast players won't grow bored of the mod before NS for HL2 is out.
Here's how NS:C would change it :
-new NS players download the game and explore both playing modes. -the dumb or lazy newbies stick to Combat NS , and don't bother playing classic NS. -Average new NS players prefer Combat NS as it feels more familiar. -The NS community is split up and the classic NS fan base slowly dies. Sure , we will only have the better elements coming in , but they won't be enough to keep the game alive long enough. HL2 will halt the growth of the NS mod for HL1 , much like UT2003 made great mods like ThieveryUT underplayed. -NS:C players quickly grow bored of this mod and go back to CS / play an other game on Steam. Bye bye NS.
Adding a "fast paced team deathmatch" game mode to NS isn't an innocent choice. It can have dire consequences imho. Flayra , if you have enough faith in your own mod , you know the wandering CS players out there don't need a new game mode , they only need enlightenment... the lost gamers must be brought to love NS ! (this is coming from an atheist <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...it takes everything that is good and holy about Natural selection and throws it out the window. Keep NS pure,? change it any way you want, but keep the basics intact.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorge = sacred in NS. Comm = sacred in NS. Therefore NS:C = blasphemy !<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've never said this before, and I never thought I would, it's also an over-used "God Bless America(n X)" expression.
Flayra should have taken the time to read a post i did in S&I a little more than a week ago. For those of you who didn't see it, here's a <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=46376&hl=comm' target='_blank'>link</a>. I suggested a new gameplay mode inspired by JeeR's idea of squad positioning. And all i got was negative feedback. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
With what was mentioned so far about the new gameplay mode, i like mine far more. One, cause i thought of it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> And second, cause it still requires teamwork. Although i didn't put my whole idea down in the suggestion, i put a general idea of it.
Flayra's new mode still might have some merit as i know too little to compare it to my idea. My idea also, isn't for newbies. It's just another mode of gameplay.
While this may be painful to some people, I feel the need of a more action-oriented and easy to understand game mode is needed to attract new players to the mod. I have at least three concerns, however.
1. Shotguns are powerful. a shotgun can easly pwn a skulk, a carapace skulk, a lerk, and a carapace lerk, and an un-carapaced fade or onos. That means that any alien would have to reach level 3-5, and pick the exact right set of upgrades in order to fight aginst shotguns, which can be gotten by the marines with a single upgrade. Even better, when a marine gets the shotgun upgrade at level 2, he keeps it, permanently. There's no more "kill the guy skilled with the shotgun so we can kill the whole group more easly", the person with the shotgun KEEPS it. This could be devastating to low and mid level aliens alike.
2. Gorges could be a viable combat class - esp with carapace. A carapace gorge is easly a match for a marine, and a carapace + regen gorge could easly be a match for multiple marines, with only three levels of upgrades.
3. A grenade launcher, for all intents and purposes, is not nessisarly "weaker" then the HMG. Indeed, the GL, in the correct hands, can easly kill whole packs of skulks and lerks in one shot. I think the GL should be last in the tech tree for this reason. People who want slug throwers can stop at the HMG, but those who want somthing stronger and a little diffrent can get the extra level for GLs.
<!--QuoteBegin--K'Ragg+Sep 16 2003, 10:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (K'Ragg @ Sep 16 2003, 10:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Will regeneration be the only means of healing for aliens? especially if the gorge is yanked? If so, regeneration will be the upgrade most will use. Without a healing post, redemption is essentially useless and with caraphase, what's the point of living slightly longer in a fight when you end up with little health afterwards? Except for fades, who can use Cara too, just make it regeneration only, the other two upgrades aren't worth the points. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> At first, I too thought the same flawed thinking, but then I realized why redemption would own:
<b>By not dying, you give the enemy no experience, and no money!</b>
You can just wear the enemy down while getting tons of cash. However, the downsides to redemtion is that it takes 3 level ups to get, and it will still make you easier to get rid of... however, in the long run, redempt will own the marines.
I'm under the impression that aliens can either heal at their base (since this is trying to teach newer players how to play) or that after redempting you have full hp (unlikely, it's not true to the game at ALL)
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Sep 16 2003, 09:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 16 2003, 09:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm under the impression that aliens can either heal at their base (since this is trying to teach newer players how to play) or that after redempting you have full hp (unlikely, it's not true to the game at ALL) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If aliens and/or marines can heal at a point in the map, why would you leave it when there is nothing out there but marines with ranged weapons or aliens who can heal away from the healing point and can wear you down?
Heck, I remember this one time on ns_hera, in reception, where the gorge had built a WoL in the hallway to holo and all the defense chambers where close enough to heal you by the res point in reception. Marines had a res there and turrets, PG, etc. I was a skulk and had silence (this was 1.03 or 1.04) and caraphase if I recall correctly.
Marines literally started to pour out of the PG as I was chewing on the turret factory, and I survived them all due to the massive defense chamber group healing me from the other side of the wall. When you can essentially duplicate this by staying at the healing station, why would you move out and risk dying?
My first thought: LOL! Sweet April Fools trick Flayra, not as good as the WC3 one but funny nonetheless. My second thought: wait, its September. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Adding this new game mode will have several hypothetical effects.
1. There will be a big surge in new players to the mod (specifically to NSC, not NS), drawn in by the close similarity to the very well known CS. Most will be the DM type, and will likely stick with 'NS lite' for quick mindless fragging.
2. Some may be interested enough to try the 'classic NS', and some may realize that the 'classic NS' offers far more depth and switch over. However, those players will be few and far between. Additionally, those players that may try 'classic NS' nowadays have the chance of getting turned from DM gameplay to the RTS/FPS hybrid that is NS. If you present an 'easy out' of NSC, then you'll lose that opportunity to bring people into NS.
3. The NS community will become divided between 'purists' and 'fraggers', each prefering one gametype. This means there will be fewer idiots on the 'classic NS' servers, likely leading to improved teamplay on those servers. The 'fraggers' will stick to the co_ servers, and will get an essentially pure DM mode because all the 'classic NS' players will be off playing NS classic on different servers.
Consider the CS gameplay types. In early versions there were hostage rescue, assassinate, bomb plant, etc. Which one required the most teamplay? Assassinate the VP missions. Guess what, noone plays those anymore. Which requires the least teamplay? DE maps, which absolutely dominate the CS servers, championed by de_dust, the smallest and simplest map ever created for CS.
A quick check on ASE shows 23 servers running any as_ map (about 300 players), and 1100 servers running de_dust alone (11000 players). There are more people playing WC3 mod CS than AS maps. People only run servers if they get players, and you'll get the 'slippery slope' phenomenon: as more people play NSC, more servers change to NSC, therefore fewer people play NS, therefore more servers change to NSC.....
I truly fear for the continuation of the NS we have all come to respect and love if NSC were to be implemented. NS is a single shining example of how a game that goes against the industry norms can create one of the most rewarding gameplay experiences ever. I would hate to see that tarnished by an attempt to make NS more universally popular at the cost of its unique gameplay.
I agree, that the Gorge and Commander ARE sacred in NS! That's why I want to make sure that when there are just 5 people sitting around on a LAN, that they are able to play NS in SOME form. If not, entire groups of people may miss out on NS completely (not to mention the people they tell NS about, and the people THOSE people tell about NS, etc.).
NS: Combat is a way to faciliate growth of the core "classic" NS. If I had my way, NS: C would see some tournament play, but anyone who knows anything about NS would be competing in "classic" NS. If you think we just spent over 2 years busting our butts on Commander mode and all that balance, just to have it not be used, you're wrong. NS: C is to allow NS to grow properly.
I like the idea of this a lot. It would broaden the appeal of NS immensely. There is a strong chance that of the people who play this game mode:
- Some would never have played NS without it, because of the initial learning curve - Some will progress to the classic game mode.
I don't think it will harm the current game mode at all. Just ask yourselves, as NS players "Would I play this and never again play classic mode?"
If it is successful it will mean more people downloading the mod, which is a step closer to more people playing the classic game mode. I think a lot of people will get caught up in the action and want more than just a mindless fragfest - they will turn to the "real" NS.
A lot of people seem to feel threatened by this idea, I'm not too sure why. I think it will do NS a lot of good.
Try it gamers, then give your opinion (So much negativity on here)--it's the only real way to get a real creadable answer. People haven't even played it, and already saying negative things about the idea--who isn't or is going to play it.
Let's hear some positive comments, ideas, ways to promote the idea.
This is turing out to be more of a flame rather then a contructive thread.
It's obsurd to think that it will harm the current game; all it is, is another option to chose from--let the server poplation decide what's fun or not....In fact, this new game mode will INVITE new players who are not all that intersted in the current game mode--thus, increasing the player count. Just because a new game mode comes out, isn't going drop the interest of current NS gamers--why would it?--nothing is affected.
I believe, it's a good alternative mode for pub servers.
Okay, my opinion without reading anyone elses first:
I don't see why they are going to start working on something else when they haven't perfected the first one. Not even close. Let alone WHAT they are turning it into. I mean we already have Counter-Strike with mods like Warcraft 3 for cs to get levels and such. NS is different and special in what it has, I won't ever understand why they would want to make it like something that already exists regardless if it is "slightly" different.
I think it is a good idea. The current model can really break down sometimes with small teams and some other situations.
It needs to be very easy to switch between modes, like say you are waiting for more players you could just switch to combat mode and screw around for a little while.
Would the map determine the game mode like the cs_ de_ style ? I think it would be cool if you could play either way on any map and just switch between them by voting or admin selection.
I still see no reason at all to do this as it will only divide the community and generally cause problems. I remember the fiasco that occured when the DoD team inserted round based para gameplay into NS. It would randomly empty a server, or there would be servers with no para, para only and all sorts of crap. It just didn't work well and made things just generally MORE confusing an unintuitive.
NS stands on its own and does so very damn well. I myself have introduced nearly 8 people to the mod who all love it. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> We don't need to screw around with gameplay that so clearly is unique. I'd rather the addition of a marine vs marine mode or ANYTHING before this sort of thing.
PLEASE don't wreck this mod by the addition of rather silly things before the standard gameplay is perfected. As mentioned, a marine vs marine mode would be infinitely better <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> Commander vs commander IMO would add a much needed aspect to the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Sep 16 2003, 10:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Sep 16 2003, 10:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NS: Combat is a way to faciliate growth of the core "classic" NS. .... NS: C is to allow NS to grow properly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Could you explain your reasoning on this? I completely agree that implementing NSC will draw in a huge amount of players. My worry is that there is no incentive for the average new player to go try NS after playing NSC.
NS grows from players (primarily DM/CSers) who hear great things about it, try it out, and after a while change from the DM attitude to the unique teamplay of NS.
By allowing players a 'DM NS', they get the best of both worlds: easy mindless fragging, a game thats different from CS but still very familiar, and the atmosphere and some of the uniqueness of NS. What I <i>don't</i> see them getting is a real reason to try NS.
My story:
I was a diehard CSer for a long time. Eventually I got tired of it, and really wanted to find a better game to play. I wanted something like CS, but <i>not</i> CS. I tried DoD, and played that for quite a while. Not because I really liked it, but because it wasn't CS. Then I tried NS, and played it mostly because it wasn't CS and I liked it a bit better than DoD. Then, after playing that a while I 'saw the light', realized how truly awesome NS is and have been hooked ever since. Looking back on my mindset then, given the choice between NSC and NS I really doubt I would have tried NS for a long enough time to have that realization. I would have been happy with NSC.
I definately see how NSC will draw in new players, but I think it will only draw them to NSC, not NS.
Im sorry, I just cant imagine NS without its resource model/building/commander/fattehs. I know attracting new player is important to any game (mod), but its attracting them for the wrong reason. I am really concerned for the community divide thing, I cant see it NOT happening.
However, if all you want is NS to be playable for a small group of players, why dont you properly implement Alien vs Alien? Not only does this fit well with the original plan, it is also very viable for a small amount of players. Only one alien is necessary for each team.
Please reconsider this NS:C business, once its released, theres no turning back.. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Both sides have good arguements, Anti-NS:C's main arguement is that they'll loose NS (hypothetically) Pro-NS:C's main arguement is that it's purely hypothetical
Unfortinatly, I'd have to agree with 90% of people here by stancing Anti-NS:C.
It'll get more players, but, honestly, I think they'll swamp NS, and it'll become the sespool we now call CS.
CS is a good game, it's the players that make it unplayable. Do we <b>really</b> want to attract those players into our loving, sharing community?
I'm trying not to sound xenophobic here, but come on guys, we know what the CS community is like, somewhat like the game, <b>RAMBO!</b>.
Getting these people into our community, whatever the outcome, will most certainly destroy what we've grown to love, I'm not just refering to the game.
Just another few pennies I'm throwing in the pot I guess.
Well I have faith in NS and its developers, and this just might pull me back in the game if its done right. Best advice be careful, don't lose the true concept of NS (a FP-RTS) to Combat..
What I see is not NS and Combat as different entities in the future, if you mix the ideas well enough you have 2 (3 for commander) levels of strategy:
Personal: Become the perfect soldier in your own ideals or to help your team and the fate of the game
(Commander): Lead your team to victory by pefroming basic structure building, defense, basic upgrades and team tactics
Team: Work together to form a working strategy to counter or attack the opposing team and win the game!
What I don't want to see is what CS does. It puts you in a position where teamwork is not nessary for survival, instead "skill" is valued and you get rewarded only for skill in one area, killing the other team. Which is all great and everything but isn't all that. That's were NS shines, <b>it shines in its diversity</b>.
All I want to see from NS is a little (just a tad..) more emphasis on personal skill on the battle field and maybe a few combat tactics other then have ono's or HA or guns, adding diversity to combat, not just my guns are bigger then your guns.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Players are rewarded for kills by gaining access to better equipment, upgrades, abilities or lifeforms. A team wins if it has a higher combined level when the time elapses, or manages to kill the entire team at once.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[big lie]Yeah this sounds great... and you know the aliens will all be wearing ski masks, and there will be scientists you have to rescue and sometimes the aliens will have to set up us the bomb and the marines have to defuse it.[/big lie]
This is a waste of an idea. Please leave Natural Selection as Natural Selection and dont make it Counter Strike.
Several mods already have NS-ish teamdeathmatch gameplay. Exemple : Vampire Slayer , fangs vs rifles and shotguns (guess what , theses own all the time) ; I have the experience of this mod , and it gets quickly boring. Faster than a fade could blink...
I think if you guys are going to argue about DeathMatch vs Teamplay... You should stop framing DMers as "mindless fraggers" and TeamPlayers as "We're smarter and leeter than DMers too!"
Such insinuations are ridiculous. I consider myself a mix of DM and Teamplay and I seem to do pretty well, as I seem to get my fair share of hack-ussations.
I can already see how how I'll use co_maps. Let me give you some examples:
1) the server I'm playing on switches to ns_lost or ns_mineshaft 2) non-english speaking comm (speaking noobish instead) 3) non-english speaking team (once against speaking noobish.. I once knew this ancient language, but no longer :/)
When your comm and team doesn't understand how to play, or your alien team is more intent on devouring marines for kicks rather than winning....
Go play NS without all the self appointed "teamplay" users. Just go play with folks who understand the objectives!
(Of course.. there is always the HAMPTONS if you need to get away from the rabble now!)
Did this topic get phased, locked or something else? I couldn't find it in the General Discussion area. If this post works I guess it's not locked, at least <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--farcry+Sep 16 2003, 08:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (farcry @ Sep 16 2003, 08:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is NOT what ns is about. NS is about evolution, having to get your hives up, build upgrades, etc. essentialy what you are suggesting is a money system, then buying upgrades/guns with money from kills. What is CS? a money system then buying upgrades/guns with money from kills. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If it's about evolution and evolution is change then isn't that a bit of an ironic post? Also as Wither already said, Flayra said it's already in 2.1, thus theres no point in arguing and last I checked no one will hold you at gun point to play it, sheesh.
I like the idea, but I think it needs some work/tweaks to it.
Gorges may not be in maybe. Is healing allowed for Gorges? How about the marines? Is the upgrade picking like WC3 where you pick 1 and can't pick another for like 2 levels? For example, you upgrade an get an HMG, but you can't get any other weapons until level 3. Does that mean you can carry multiple weapons? The NS marine weapons aren't exactly tier based since they all have their strength and weakenesses. Also, will this also apply to armor type? As of 2.01 RC1 JPs and HA are pretty equal according to cost. So you would have to pick one or the other? Or will it progress from JP to HA? What if you like JP better and want to skip HA? Does the JP/HA stack? (That would be awesome. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) What about building dependent counters? Obs > Cloaking? Or will there be some kind of backpack upgrade so you got a sat dish coming out the back of your neck?
I got so many questions... I can't think of them all! I like this and all, but I think it needs to be thought out more so its not so much like CS=NS but something more.
<!--QuoteBegin--cri.tical+Sep 17 2003, 12:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cri.tical @ Sep 17 2003, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (Of course.. there is always the HAMPTONS if you need to get away from the rabble now!) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Haha.. I finally understand the context <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
RoQ speaks for me I vote for scenarios and assaults
Comments
like has been said before (yes, I actually read the <b>whole</b> thread!! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) it rips out the unique gameplay elements of NS.
now, this is fine, I still can choose to play "classic NS", so I'm not too worried about that.
however, the idea that NS:C will be a good introduction to NS for new players..? I seriously doubt it.
Once a team gets upgrades and the other team does not get as good an upgrade, they're going to continually be on the loosing end of the stick, after the first two-three rounds, you'll for sure know who the victor will be.
If you thought people F4'ing now was bad, wait until your team starts to get a slight lead in this mode.
How will marines be healed? otherwise the aliens could just harrass them till they run out of hitpoints.
Will regeneration be the only means of healing for aliens? especially if the gorge is yanked? If so, regeneration will be the upgrade most will use. Without a healing post, redemption is essentially useless and with caraphase, what's the point of living slightly longer in a fight when you end up with little health afterwards? Except for fades, who can use Cara too, just make it regeneration only, the other two upgrades aren't worth the points.
Pheromones... do anyone even use those? Movement chamber is pretty solid, at least. Perhaps, as a counter to marines essentially having a never-ending supply of res, let aliens be able to buy *all* the upgrades on all the chambers, or randomly pick 4-5 of the total nine.
As a skulk, I'd certainly stop running around the map and find myself a dark corner to hide in until a marine passes by, since there's no need for me close the distance anymore. I'm not protecting anything but myself.
As a lerk, I'd just hang far back with regeneration and spikes and spores until I could get onos.
What about "degrading" upgrades? If one upgrade is good for one alien class, it doesn't mean I want it on another, and if I have to remutate when I change class, will I be compensated for it?
What about critical mass? it could fracture the server population and kill off the current ns_* gamemode.
If it stays largely within the current ruleset, here's what I foresee.
Marines will focus on getting shotgun and armor level 1.
To counter this, aliens will switch to lerks in order to be able to stay far away from the shotguns.
Marines work on getting HA, which renders spores useless and aliens will go for onos. Fade will not be used much due to dying easily to shotguns and requiring to be up close an personal to kill a marine. If you don't die, you're more likely to win the round and thus, regeneration and a distance weapon (lerk) or regeneration and being a meatshield (onos) is the better choices.
And the GL isn't of much use either, since it is primarily anti-structures. What about mines?
And as a personal comment, it's definitively not my cup of tea.
-new NS players are generally lazy.
-the dumbest of them (known as "NSPlayer"s) leave as they don't understand **** , others stay for a while and understand the basic objectives of the game.
-the lazier ones ("noobs") eventually leave , the last newbies remaining slowly learn the game.
-newbies turn into elitist veterans.
-new NS enthusiast players won't grow bored of the mod before NS for HL2 is out.
Here's how NS:C would change it :
-new NS players download the game and explore both playing modes.
-the dumb or lazy newbies stick to Combat NS , and don't bother playing classic NS.
-Average new NS players prefer Combat NS as it feels more familiar.
-The NS community is split up and the classic NS fan base slowly dies. Sure , we will only have the better elements coming in , but they won't be enough to keep the game alive long enough. HL2 will halt the growth of the NS mod for HL1 , much like UT2003 made great mods like ThieveryUT underplayed.
-NS:C players quickly grow bored of this mod and go back to CS / play an other game on Steam. Bye bye NS.
Adding a "fast paced team deathmatch" game mode to NS isn't an innocent choice. It can have dire consequences imho. Flayra , if you have enough faith in your own mod , you know the wandering CS players out there don't need a new game mode , they only need enlightenment... the lost gamers must be brought to love NS ! (this is coming from an atheist <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...it takes everything that is good and holy about Natural selection and throws it out the window. Keep NS pure,? change it any way you want, but keep the basics intact.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorge = sacred in NS. Comm = sacred in NS. Therefore NS:C = blasphemy !<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never said this before, and I never thought I would, it's also an over-used "God Bless America(n X)" expression.
But, here goes...
Amen to that!
With what was mentioned so far about the new gameplay mode, i like mine far more. One, cause i thought of it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> And second, cause it still requires teamwork. Although i didn't put my whole idea down in the suggestion, i put a general idea of it.
Flayra's new mode still might have some merit as i know too little to compare it to my idea. My idea also, isn't for newbies. It's just another mode of gameplay.
1. Shotguns are powerful. a shotgun can easly pwn a skulk, a carapace skulk, a lerk, and a carapace lerk, and an un-carapaced fade or onos. That means that any alien would have to reach level 3-5, and pick the exact right set of upgrades in order to fight aginst shotguns, which can be gotten by the marines with a single upgrade. Even better, when a marine gets the shotgun upgrade at level 2, he keeps it, permanently. There's no more "kill the guy skilled with the shotgun so we can kill the whole group more easly", the person with the shotgun KEEPS it. This could be devastating to low and mid level aliens alike.
2. Gorges could be a viable combat class - esp with carapace. A carapace gorge is easly a match for a marine, and a carapace + regen gorge could easly be a match for multiple marines, with only three levels of upgrades.
3. A grenade launcher, for all intents and purposes, is not nessisarly "weaker" then the HMG. Indeed, the GL, in the correct hands, can easly kill whole packs of skulks and lerks in one shot. I think the GL should be last in the tech tree for this reason. People who want slug throwers can stop at the HMG, but those who want somthing stronger and a little diffrent can get the extra level for GLs.
At first, I too thought the same flawed thinking, but then I realized why redemption would own:
<b>By not dying, you give the enemy no experience, and no money!</b>
You can just wear the enemy down while getting tons of cash. However, the downsides to redemtion is that it takes 3 level ups to get, and it will still make you easier to get rid of... however, in the long run, redempt will own the marines.
I'm under the impression that aliens can either heal at their base (since this is trying to teach newer players how to play) or that after redempting you have full hp (unlikely, it's not true to the game at ALL)
If aliens and/or marines can heal at a point in the map, why would you leave it when there is nothing out there but marines with ranged weapons or aliens who can heal away from the healing point and can wear you down?
Heck, I remember this one time on ns_hera, in reception, where the gorge had built a WoL in the hallway to holo and all the defense chambers where close enough to heal you by the res point in reception. Marines had a res there and turrets, PG, etc. I was a skulk and had silence (this was 1.03 or 1.04) and caraphase if I recall correctly.
Marines literally started to pour out of the PG as I was chewing on the turret factory, and I survived them all due to the massive defense chamber group healing me from the other side of the wall. When you can essentially duplicate this by staying at the healing station, why would you move out and risk dying?
My second thought: wait, its September. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Adding this new game mode will have several hypothetical effects.
1. There will be a big surge in new players to the mod (specifically to NSC, not NS), drawn in by the close similarity to the very well known CS. Most will be the DM type, and will likely stick with 'NS lite' for quick mindless fragging.
2. Some may be interested enough to try the 'classic NS', and some may realize that the 'classic NS' offers far more depth and switch over. However, those players will be few and far between. Additionally, those players that may try 'classic NS' nowadays have the chance of getting turned from DM gameplay to the RTS/FPS hybrid that is NS. If you present an 'easy out' of NSC, then you'll lose that opportunity to bring people into NS.
3. The NS community will become divided between 'purists' and 'fraggers', each prefering one gametype. This means there will be fewer idiots on the 'classic NS' servers, likely leading to improved teamplay on those servers. The 'fraggers' will stick to the co_ servers, and will get an essentially pure DM mode because all the 'classic NS' players will be off playing NS classic on different servers.
Consider the CS gameplay types. In early versions there were hostage rescue, assassinate, bomb plant, etc. Which one required the most teamplay? Assassinate the VP missions. Guess what, noone plays those anymore. Which requires the least teamplay? DE maps, which absolutely dominate the CS servers, championed by de_dust, the smallest and simplest map ever created for CS.
A quick check on ASE shows 23 servers running any as_ map (about 300 players), and 1100 servers running de_dust alone (11000 players). There are more people playing WC3 mod CS than AS maps. People only run servers if they get players, and you'll get the 'slippery slope' phenomenon: as more people play NSC, more servers change to NSC, therefore fewer people play NS, therefore more servers change to NSC.....
I truly fear for the continuation of the NS we have all come to respect and love if NSC were to be implemented. NS is a single shining example of how a game that goes against the industry norms can create one of the most rewarding gameplay experiences ever. I would hate to see that tarnished by an attempt to make NS more universally popular at the cost of its unique gameplay.
Please reconsider.
NS: Combat is a way to faciliate growth of the core "classic" NS. If I had my way, NS: C would see some tournament play, but anyone who knows anything about NS would be competing in "classic" NS. If you think we just spent over 2 years busting our butts on Commander mode and all that balance, just to have it not be used, you're wrong. NS: C is to allow NS to grow properly.
- Some would never have played NS without it, because of the initial learning curve
- Some will progress to the classic game mode.
I don't think it will harm the current game mode at all. Just ask yourselves, as NS players "Would I play this and never again play classic mode?"
If it is successful it will mean more people downloading the mod, which is a step closer to more people playing the classic game mode. I think a lot of people will get caught up in the action and want more than just a mindless fragfest - they will turn to the "real" NS.
A lot of people seem to feel threatened by this idea, I'm not too sure why. I think it will do NS a lot of good.
Try it gamers, then give your opinion (So much negativity on here)--it's the only real way to get a real creadable answer. People haven't even played it, and already saying negative things about the idea--who isn't or is going to play it.
Let's hear some positive comments, ideas, ways to promote the idea.
This is turing out to be more of a flame rather then a contructive thread.
It's obsurd to think that it will harm the current game; all it is, is another option to chose from--let the server poplation decide what's fun or not....In fact, this new game mode will INVITE new players who are not all that intersted in the current game mode--thus, increasing the player count. Just because a new game mode comes out, isn't going drop the interest of current NS gamers--why would it?--nothing is affected.
I believe, it's a good alternative mode for pub servers.
I don't see why they are going to start working on something else when they haven't perfected the first one. Not even close. Let alone WHAT they are turning it into. I mean we already have Counter-Strike with mods like Warcraft 3 for cs to get levels and such. NS is different and special in what it has, I won't ever understand why they would want to make it like something that already exists regardless if it is "slightly" different.
It needs to be very easy to switch between modes, like say you are waiting for more players you could just switch to combat mode and screw around for a little while.
Would the map determine the game mode like the cs_ de_ style ? I think it would be cool if you could play either way on any map and just switch between them by voting or admin selection.
NS stands on its own and does so very damn well. I myself have introduced nearly 8 people to the mod who all love it. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> We don't need to screw around with gameplay that so clearly is unique. I'd rather the addition of a marine vs marine mode or ANYTHING before this sort of thing.
PLEASE don't wreck this mod by the addition of rather silly things before the standard gameplay is perfected. As mentioned, a marine vs marine mode would be infinitely better <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> Commander vs commander IMO would add a much needed aspect to the game.
Could you explain your reasoning on this? I completely agree that implementing NSC will draw in a huge amount of players. My worry is that there is no incentive for the average new player to go try NS after playing NSC.
NS grows from players (primarily DM/CSers) who hear great things about it, try it out, and after a while change from the DM attitude to the unique teamplay of NS.
By allowing players a 'DM NS', they get the best of both worlds: easy mindless fragging, a game thats different from CS but still very familiar, and the atmosphere and some of the uniqueness of NS. What I <i>don't</i> see them getting is a real reason to try NS.
My story:
I was a diehard CSer for a long time. Eventually I got tired of it, and really wanted to find a better game to play. I wanted something like CS, but <i>not</i> CS. I tried DoD, and played that for quite a while. Not because I really liked it, but because it wasn't CS. Then I tried NS, and played it mostly because it wasn't CS and I liked it a bit better than DoD. Then, after playing that a while I 'saw the light', realized how truly awesome NS is and have been hooked ever since. Looking back on my mindset then, given the choice between NSC and NS I really doubt I would have tried NS for a long enough time to have that realization. I would have been happy with NSC.
I definately see how NSC will draw in new players, but I think it will only draw them to NSC, not NS.
However, if all you want is NS to be playable for a small group of players, why dont you properly implement Alien vs Alien? Not only does this fit well with the original plan, it is also very viable for a small amount of players. Only one alien is necessary for each team.
Please reconsider this NS:C business, once its released, theres no turning back.. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Both sides have good arguements,
Anti-NS:C's main arguement is that they'll loose NS (hypothetically)
Pro-NS:C's main arguement is that it's purely hypothetical
Unfortinatly, I'd have to agree with 90% of people here by stancing Anti-NS:C.
It'll get more players, but, honestly, I think they'll swamp NS, and it'll become the sespool we now call CS.
CS is a good game, it's the players that make it unplayable. Do we <b>really</b> want to attract those players into our loving, sharing community?
I'm trying not to sound xenophobic here, but come on guys, we know what the CS community is like, somewhat like the game, <b>RAMBO!</b>.
Getting these people into our community, whatever the outcome, will most certainly destroy what we've grown to love, I'm not just refering to the game.
Just another few pennies I'm throwing in the pot I guess.
What I see is not NS and Combat as different entities in the future, if you mix the ideas well enough you have 2 (3 for commander) levels of strategy:
Personal: Become the perfect soldier in your own ideals or to help your team and the fate of the game
(Commander): Lead your team to victory by pefroming basic structure building, defense, basic upgrades and team tactics
Team: Work together to form a working strategy to counter or attack the opposing team and win the game!
What I don't want to see is what CS does. It puts you in a position where teamwork is not nessary for survival, instead "skill" is valued and you get rewarded only for skill in one area, killing the other team. Which is all great and everything but isn't all that. That's were NS shines, <b>it shines in its diversity</b>.
All I want to see from NS is a little (just a tad..) more emphasis on personal skill on the battle field and maybe a few combat tactics other then have ono's or HA or guns, adding diversity to combat, not just my guns are bigger then your guns.
And what is that image from? That kicks ****!
[big lie]Yeah this sounds great... and you know the aliens will all be wearing ski masks, and there will be scientists you have to rescue and sometimes the aliens will have to set up us the bomb and the marines have to defuse it.[/big lie]
This is a waste of an idea. Please leave Natural Selection as Natural Selection and dont make it Counter Strike.
Such insinuations are ridiculous. I consider myself a mix of DM and Teamplay and I seem to do pretty well, as I seem to get my fair share of hack-ussations.
I can already see how how I'll use co_maps. Let me give you some examples:
1) the server I'm playing on switches to ns_lost or ns_mineshaft
2) non-english speaking comm (speaking noobish instead)
3) non-english speaking team (once against speaking noobish.. I once knew this ancient language, but no longer :/)
When your comm and team doesn't understand how to play, or your alien team is more intent on devouring marines for kicks rather than winning....
Go play NS without all the self appointed "teamplay" users. Just go play with folks who understand the objectives!
(Of course.. there is always the HAMPTONS if you need to get away from the rabble now!)
If it's about evolution and evolution is change then isn't that a bit of an ironic post? Also as Wither already said, Flayra said it's already in 2.1, thus theres no point in arguing and last I checked no one will hold you at gun point to play it, sheesh.
Gorges may not be in maybe. Is healing allowed for Gorges? How about the marines? Is the upgrade picking like WC3 where you pick 1 and can't pick another for like 2 levels? For example, you upgrade an get an HMG, but you can't get any other weapons until level 3. Does that mean you can carry multiple weapons? The NS marine weapons aren't exactly tier based since they all have their strength and weakenesses. Also, will this also apply to armor type? As of 2.01 RC1 JPs and HA are pretty equal according to cost. So you would have to pick one or the other? Or will it progress from JP to HA? What if you like JP better and want to skip HA? Does the JP/HA stack? (That would be awesome. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) What about building dependent counters? Obs > Cloaking? Or will there be some kind of backpack upgrade so you got a sat dish coming out the back of your neck?
I got so many questions... I can't think of them all! I like this and all, but I think it needs to be thought out more so its not so much like CS=NS but something more.
Haha.. I finally understand the context <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
RoQ speaks for me
I vote for scenarios and assaults