The main reasons are that I want to experience other possibilities of playing NS. As a way to blow of steam, there is no better type of game than "team-DM" and I would love to see the NS-style team DM!
As for attracting new players to NS with NS:Combat, I dont think that can be bad in any way. More people means more servers and more competition in clan ladders. Of course it will have other kinds of problems like cheating might become more wide spread but its not a reason not try to get more players. All the servers I play in are by rule equipped with Cheating Death and it can counter almost any cheat out there. And last i would like to say that we dont need to fear NS turning into another CS clone - NS is the most multifaceted HL mod out there and NS:C will make it even more diverse.
I have to agree that basic deathmatch maps would be stupid.
HOWEVER there is validity to scenario maps like was mentioned.
IE give marines a setup and access to weapons/etc (with kills/goals) and have aliens be opposite.
I don't care about clan play... clans and tournies can cry all they want. If it doesn't work for them... they don't use it tough luck.
Basically I think this type of kill/objective based gameplay with individual upgrade options would be good, but only in the context of maps that had a theme for NS. I agree with most that just making de_dust with ns guns and textures is not where the mod should head (old tired territory with lots of competition).
I think at the point of ns:combat you are moving away from ns as a fps/rts mod and into the universe of ns. That is a good thing. Stories, special scenario maps, etc I think would benefit ns tremendously.
I would definately be interested in doing some scenario maps, or design work at the least.
I think to keep NS:combat new and exciting new weapons/mutations/upgrades would need to be added as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Sep 16 2003, 09:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Sep 16 2003, 09:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I agree, that the Gorge and Commander ARE sacred in NS! That's why I want to make sure that when there are just 5 people sitting around on a LAN, that they are able to play NS in SOME form. If not, entire groups of people may miss out on NS completely (not to mention the people they tell NS about, and the people THOSE people tell about NS, etc.).
NS: Combat is a way to faciliate growth of the core "classic" NS. If I had my way, NS: C would see some tournament play, but anyone who knows anything about NS would be competing in "classic" NS. If you think we just spent over 2 years busting our butts on Commander mode and all that balance, just to have it not be used, you're wrong. NS: C is to allow NS to grow properly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, this mode will attract more people to ns. No these people will not be the sort to play ns classic.
These will be the people who are not after a game that will make them think, or they need skills to play. It will attract the kind of people who want some mindless repeditive fragging.
Personaly i dont think this is what the community needs, NS, for me at least, is a game which requires thinking, concentration, and quite a bit of skill to play. THIS is why you get the cs people come play for one game, give up and never play again, its because they are not willing to play a game that doesn't gives them that mindless, repeditive, non thinking action.
I played CS for the first time in 2-2.5 years the other day, and i was really really disgusted at how it played. Not only every round been exactly the same, but the fact that there was no teamwork, no strategy, and the be good, all you had to do is be able to point at someones head.
I dont think this is something that NS is in need of, NS is a very very unique, addictive and strategic game.
If the people you are going to be aiming NS: C @ do not wish to play NS, then why make them? This is not going to help the NS that we know now, you cannot possible say that those who do not want to play ns now, will want to play ns after having played NS: C.
Once steam has been fully integrated into ns i plan on donating to you guys. I have never donated to any other game apart from Earth 2025 (which i had played for 6 years), i would like to donate on a regular basis and this is only because i <b>love</b> the game. I have never had a game like this before, and believe that NS: C may be the ruining of ns as we know it.
Flay, how are you EVER going to get to reading MY comments after all of this?
If you do, thank you.
At first, this looks to be a turnoff. I'm all for a new game mode, but one big threat to me is the universe continuum. How would a "deathmatch" make sense?
Now, just off the spit, I can come up with some possibilities. These are two spinoffs of close ideas.
- One, is have it be something like the standard ns, but with scripting of otherwise unscripted functions. There would be no real commander, and no gorges. However, they would be "implied," and team progress would be reflected by how well the people are doing with kills. Personal technology advancement, as well as spawning advancement and control of areas maybe, would be the plusses. Perhaps situations with no rez, so the only rez intake is strictly from kills. Half goes to personal stash, half goes to "team" stash. Highest team stash wins.
This keeps everyone happy ^_^ Though it sounds to me insanely complex. But, I think it would be needed, considering unless you plan on a total class revamp too, using existing upgrades would make no sense in a flat-out deathmatch game. I mean, half the stuff is designed for specific surgical offensiveness, like vile bomb, or spores, or even the grenade launcher. You can't really measure them up on a scale of usefulness, because they are all useful in different ways.
SO, depending on the "situations" for these deathmatches, you'd have reason to open up all new classes, or semi-altered. If these were some partially wide outdoor maps, sniper class upgrades would be useful, which would otherwise be useless on the normally enclosed, tactical ns maps.
-=OR=-
- Another possibility is to make these wide scale, perhaps out door-ish maps, with obviously no resource nodes. The aliens would have self upgrading capabilities based on income from kills. I'd figure they'd be slightly different from normal ns aliens *as the general upgrade system has potential to be awkward for strictly player to player combat.*
The marines are set down on a dropship, and don't get any rez/help from the command ship unless they provide their own rez*aka killing aliens* which grants them personal upgrades.
Now all you need to do is find a "point" for combating endlessly respawning aliens in an undefeatable situation, and then you have yourself a new mode ^_^ My first suggestion might give a way for a team to "win," by reaching a particular kill number (perhaps set by the server?)
ANYWAY, I hope this made some sense, sorry for writing so much.
Oh, and get rid of pheromones. Replace it with something to void motion tracking, and to do something else until motion tracking is upgraded on the marines. That is all.
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> <a href='http://mobianwarrior.tripod.com/monster/main.html' target='_blank'>Monster, the unofficial 1.0 to 2.0 fanfic.</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--cri.tical+Sep 17 2003, 12:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cri.tical @ Sep 17 2003, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think if you guys are going to argue about DeathMatch vs Teamplay... You should stop framing DMers as "mindless fraggers" and TeamPlayers as "We're smarter and leeter than DMers too!"
Such insinuations are ridiculous. I consider myself a mix of DM and Teamplay and I seem to do pretty well, as I seem to get my fair share of hack-ussations.
I can already see how how I'll use co_maps. Let me give you some examples:
1) the server I'm playing on switches to ns_lost or ns_mineshaft 2) non-english speaking comm (speaking noobish instead) 3) non-english speaking team (once against speaking noobish.. I once knew this ancient language, but no longer :/)
When your comm and team doesn't understand how to play, or your alien team is more intent on devouring marines for kicks rather than winning....
Go play NS without all the self appointed "teamplay" users. Just go play with folks who understand the objectives!
(Of course.. there is always the HAMPTONS if you need to get away from the rabble now!) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> people are calling DM "mindless" as it requires no strategy or thinking... its just run into a room, point click (or click point), and then you die/kill the other guy and move into the next room.
The thing in cs that uses the most brain power is choosing which weapon you should get.
<!--QuoteBegin--Flak[50C]+Sep 17 2003, 01:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flak[50C] @ Sep 17 2003, 01:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have to agree that basic deathmatch maps would be stupid.
HOWEVER there is validity to scenario maps like was mentioned.
IE give marines a setup and access to weapons/etc (with kills/goals) and have aliens be opposite.
I don't care about clan play... clans and tournies can cry all they want. If it doesn't work for them... they don't use it tough luck.
Basically I think this type of kill/objective based gameplay with individual upgrade options would be good, but only in the context of maps that had a theme for NS. I agree with most that just making de_dust with ns guns and textures is not where the mod should head (old tired territory with lots of competition).
I think at the point of ns:combat you are moving away from ns as a fps/rts mod and into the universe of ns. That is a good thing. Stories, special scenario maps, etc I think would benefit ns tremendously.
I would definately be interested in doing some scenario maps, or design work at the least.
I think to keep NS:combat new and exciting new weapons/mutations/upgrades would need to be added as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> NS is a team game, individualising upgrades/weapons for marines is not team oriented.
If you want your kill/objective based gameplay (note: NOT <b>team</b>play) go play some cs. essentialy what i believe this is doing is trying to get cs players to come play "ns" because its the same thing just different guns.
I have very strong views on this, feel free to flame me all you like.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited September 2003
Considering the general dislike that a lot of the community has for cs, I can't see this being a good thing in the long run. Even if it doesn't decrease the number of servers playing the standard mode, I think we are still going to be see people making elitist flames all over the forums to the tune of "n00b co player". The forums are going to become a more hostile place.
There is alot of good comments in this thread, I'm just amazed at how much people have had to say in such a short period of time!
I don't know whether NS:C will be an interesting gameplay alternative, or a detrimental decision which damages NS. I think it can go either way. It's worth noting that when HL2 comes, the disliked moron players will all migrate to HL2 anyways, and only the cool people will be left. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
If there is an admin on, it would be possible to play NS:C until more players show up, that could be useful.
I personally would rather see fully tactical(hives and comms, not NS:C style) MvM and AvA maps before NS:C. I would rather see objective based NS maps before NS:C. But timewasting is not much of an issue, since NS:C is probably easier to make than other new modes.
It sounds sweet. Sometimes I dont have an hour or 2 to play a game of NS.
I also think that it would draw some more players to the NS world. Introduce them to NS in a much faster way. I wonder how many guys that would have loved NS, just simply quit after their first 10 or 20 minutes on a badly losing team their first time in a NS server.
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
edited September 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Sep 16 2003, 02:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Sep 16 2003, 02:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yep, you choose what you want next. Ie, if you're a marine, and you go up a level, you can upgrade your weapon. You don't choose what weapon to get, you just choose if you want to upgrade it, and it upgrades the same way every time. So if you upgrade your weapon, you will get a shotgun. Upgrade it again when you get another level, and you get a grenade launcher. Upgrade again, you get an HMG, etc.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cant you opt to just upgrade the weapon strength?
I mean if you go from an LMG to a shot gun, perhaps you like the LMG better for its range?
Now you are stuck with a short range weapon instead that you dont really want.
I personaly dont like the round death match thing. One of the greatest reasons I love NS as my favorite mod is b/c its different and matches can be as long or as short as you want.
Death match just seems to "dumb down or simplify" the game.
Im not putting any sarcasm into the next sentence at all so no one better take it like Im being insulting b/c its not ment to be. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> But is this part of your "vision" of what NS is supposed to be or just something you wanted to test out in the forums?
PS Love NS its the best mod ever. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Sep 16 2003, 03:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 16 2003, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, I could imagine this being pretty fun and fairly balanced:
[...snip] Aliens start with 3 hives, all the nodes, and 0 res each.
Marines start with everything researched except lv. 2 & 3 weapons, phase tech, MT, and everyone in the squad either has HA/HMG/Welders and some of them have JP/Shotty. However, they only have 100 res, start a good distance away from their only commchair, and have no nodes.
...
So there you have it; aliens must hold off the marines untill they can get some fades/onos into play, where as the marines need their base(for ammo of the least of things!) and then the hives to avoid being pounded by higher evolution aliens.
This type of gameplay would reverse the roles of each side; aliens would only need res, and marines would only need location to win (and some res still). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like Forlorn's idea. Other teamplay gamemodes would be great (like the above, or an escape map where the marines have to penetrate the alien defenses to hit the ship self-destruct button and escape)
The twitch-deathmatch stuff isn't what I come to NS for, personally. It's the tactics & strategy. I bet most people who like NS have also liked similar RTS games.
One of your concerns seems to be scaling the game for smaller servers. In 1.04, map creators solved this by creating ns_missle_command, ns_siege, and other small maps that don't require a full, conquesting team. I think some smaller maps would do well.
Greetings.. I've been a long-time forum lurker and player of NS, but this will be my first forum post. Judge it, thereby, as harshly as you see fit <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I see a lot of people fearing the prospect of this new game mode for two main reasons: 1) It will make NS like counterstrike, and 2) The Alien team will get destroyed for various reasons (mostly shotgun-related)
I'll say up front that I like the idea and that it has a lot of potential. Sometimes you can't find someone who's willing to command, and that can make a game end pretty damn quickly. Like Flayra mentions on the main page, this mode will make small games much more interesting, because let's face it--with how NS's resource system works, Aliens have an overwhelming advantage in small (e.g. 3vs3) games, wherein they earn resources quickly enough to repeatedly become an Onos even with only 1 or 2 resource towers.
In regards to the community's fear that this new mode will destroy NS... Fear not. Not every server out there is going to run it, and if people truly end up disliking it, it will not be popular. Myself, I simply adore the Rocket Crowbar mod, but I can never find a server that's running it. It's apparently unpopular, and therefore there are plenty of Counterstrike, DoD, and NS servers instead.
Here is how I (as a non-team member) envision NS Combat:
<i>I've stepped into the infantry portal starside, and I find myself standing amid a pile of wreckage that used to be the command room. I'm with several of my fellow marines, looking confused, yet still conditioned and combat-ready. We won't be setting up a base here, I think. I load up my LMG and turn an uneasy eye toward the three doors leading from this room out into the unknown of the facility we've entered, and then with even more dread I spot two open vents above us and curse silently at the engineers who designed this facility to be the Kharaa deathtrap it's about to become.
...Luckily, though we don't have the Command network to help us set up shop, the TSA Frigate Vorw?rtscschild is in orbit to support us with reinforcements and (as threat-level dictates) heavier arms. I've fought Kharaa before... they leave a smell in the air, and I smell it now. I've come to associate that smell with pain and death. The drugs in my system try to supress my fear, but no drug can quell a fear that rises from the depths of one's soul.
We've formed up into loose squads to set out on patrol and assess the situation. Everyone here already knows, though. The claw divots in the walls and cielings tells us all what we're about to face, and the crushed bulkheads below reveal an even greater danger... God, I love being a Frontiersman. Bring it on.</i>
The NS team have proved all the way through development that they know how to balance a game. The first released of NS:C probably won't be perfect... But this concept has a lot of potential. If I can make one recommendation, it's that everyone provide their constructive criticisms and ideas for the development of the new game mode rather than simply trying to shoot it down outright.
I look forward to development!
<3 the <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
wake up call to everyone who has mouthed off in this thread: if you don't like NS:C then don't play it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
i personally love the idea becuase it isn't cs but you can play it without many players. maybe even some server plugin could make it so that when there arn't many people on the server you could play NS:C.
and if its such a stupid/horrid idea it will go the way of the terroist escape mode in cs (yes there was actually a mode in cs where the ts were like vips)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In regards to the community's fear that this new mode will destroy NS... Fear not. Not every server out there is going to run it, and if people truly end up disliking it, it will not be popular. Myself, I simply adore the Rocket Crowbar mod, but I can never find a server that's running it. It's apparently unpopular, and therefore there are plenty of Counterstrike, DoD, and NS servers instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe that it is the current community members that will dislike the mod, as it is the opposite of everything they (or most of us) play ns for. This will create a severe partion of the NS community: "Deathmatch" and "Classic". I think that very few people will come for classic ns if they are join NS community solely because of NS: C.
I just hope that flayra doesnt (unintentionaly) kill ns with this idea, either though lack of players, players who are not friendly, or though a community division. As he said, 2 years in the making... how bout we get some of the MvM or AvA that was in your original design docs before this? or even improve ns as it is now, with more classes/weapons.
<!--QuoteBegin--farcry+Sep 17 2003, 02:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (farcry @ Sep 17 2003, 02:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> people are calling DM "mindless" as it requires no strategy or thinking... its just run into a room, point click (or click point), and then you die/kill the other guy and move into the next room.
The thing in cs that uses the most brain power is choosing which weapon you should get. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm.. I would have thought the guy that hosts the sYn server would have understood that DM isn't mindless at all. Some of the people who play so called "DM" games, may play mindlessly.... But - the clans/players that are good at the game.. the so called kings of the game, they definetly do not play mindlessly. Do you think a mindless attitude is going to win the game?
<b>Lets face it.. The "mindless" stereotype of DM style play is a fallacy invented by those who aren't quick enough to keep up with the intense level of play.</b>
Look at Axe, shampoo, or remiCs. They are the ultimate DM players... and they make their NS teams great. Interesting that such supposedly mindless players lead their teams to victory in a so called "thinking" game.
The aforementioned players excel because for one reason or another their mind is better adapted to fragging than any of the rest of us. Maybe its genetics.. maybe learned? But its definetly a tangible mental process involving which way to move, which way to look, which way to track that skulk coming at you at high speeds.
I agree with TyrNemesis. Give NS:combat a chance! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And tyr - a pretty nice first post <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
These are the sort of ideas I wish were implemented into classic NS, for the marines. Small games, however organised or not, for a typical footslogger are pretty darn tedious. Spawn with lmg, build something, maybe shoot a skulk, maybe several, continue running and building. Die. Repeat. Eventually you get a better gun, providing you are winning, or at least have a decent res. income and Comm. if you aren't. Sometimes during this progression, you get gassed, a lot. Eventually of course, bigger better aliens appear, with more upgrades, of their choice too. Such is the way of it.
Of course, you could always rambo, but we all know where <i>that</i> will get you, most times.
But, when I say "These ideas", I don't actually mean this progressive line of experience and upgrading for singular players, I just mean there be some sort of unique creativity to how you go about your game as a marine. A handful of passive and/or periodically useable abilities, say, I don't know, the ability to build slightly faster, or update motion circles quicker. I haven't given a lot of thought as to what these would be, because no doubt this will never get a second thought if brought up to them, let alone implemented. I had just hoped, since playing 1.0, 2.0 would be a little more, instead of a little different, I guess.
As long as there a no maps that turn out as bad as Bast and Nothing do, it'll work out <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--cri.tical+Sep 17 2003, 02:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cri.tical @ Sep 17 2003, 02:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hmm.. I would have thought the guy that hosts the sYn server would have understood that DM isn't mindless at all. Some of the people who play so called "DM" games, may play mindlessly.... But - the clans/players that are good at the game.. the so called kings of the game, they definetly do not play mindlessly. Do you think a mindless attitude is going to win the game?
<b>Lets face it.. The "mindless" stereotype of DM style play is a fallacy invented by those who aren't quick enough to keep up with the intense level of play.</b>
Look at Axe, shampoo, or remiCs. They are the ultimate DM players... and they make their NS teams great. Interesting that such supposedly mindless players lead their teams to victory in a so called "thinking" game.
The aforementioned players excel because for one reason or another their mind is better adapted to fragging than any of the rest of us. Maybe its genetics.. maybe learned? But its definetly a tangible mental process involving which way to move, which way to look, which way to track that skulk coming at you at high speeds.
Anything but mindless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I have an agreement with syn as to their server, if you have played with syn member sin public games (those who know their alias's/wonid's) then you will see that they are very skilled players and i have seen remics get an entire team to evolve to lerk to spore up a phase game which we were seiging from (i was the comm).
All clan games are essentialy team-dm, there is ALOT of teamwork involved to be able to pull off what syn do. Look at their ham vs syn demo, they had one person guarding base with the best gun at ALL times, they move in a group, they all worked together. deathmatch is where there is no teamwork. counter strike there is no team work other than "hey can someone guard me while i put this bomb down?" or 1 person following some else.
I do not believe that it is invented by those who cannot keep up. Before i started playing solely on my own US servers, i was one of WA's (western australia) better players (in the top 10). I can take deathmatch at a pretty good pace without too much sweat, i've been in 24-32 player HLDM matches at lans and it is not all that difficult. It's a complete lack of strategy, and just all round point/click.
I think where the "mindless" idea comes from is more the lack of strategies/need of working with others. Hence it is "mindless" in there there is no real work involved other than keeping up with the game.
NS can get VERY intense, get a 24 player server, you have 12 on 12 with mass attacks all over the place, aliens franticaly trying to stop seiging marines at hives, its a great deal of fun, and it still requires alot of "Everyone to [insert name here] QUICK!" over the mic. Just yesterday i was in a game with 3 on 4 (4 been rines). us aliens (lyndak, daybreaker, and myself) were running everywhere trying to stop the crazy marines seiging every damn place we built. it was a very very fast game (took about 40 minutes to finnish though).
There is nothing in NS like been a lone marine trying to desperately build a TF/seige in a alien hive where there are aliens near by, and you base is getting f***ed by a few ono's and this is the last hive they hive. It gives you a massive adrenaline boost that you cannot get in CS/dm.
Sorry about this post going all over the place but im just writing what im thinking (i have a hyperactive mind that goes all over the place)
People are claiming that teamwork will disapear with NS: C, but keep in mind.. deathmatch or not, the best way to rack up kills for both aliens and marines will be to work as a team. Organised teams will still rule Natural Selection.
I support NS:C and I can't wait to play it. When I'm in the mood for straight combat without the RTS elements, I won't need to start DOD, CS, Enemy Territory, etc. I love the NS universe and would love to see it expanded into more gamestyles.
You can compare it to CS all you like but this is just as much CS as it is DOD, FLF, TFC, etc. Do you guys hate CS so much that you'll dismiss ANY gametype that allows you to personally purchase ugprades? CS = rounds. NS:C = respawn. CS = modern combat. NS:C = sci-fi combat. Pointless argument, so give it up.
This won't damage the original NS gameplay. The people who love and play NS will continue to play it.
<!--QuoteBegin--[UVic] Morden+Sep 17 2003, 07:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([UVic] Morden @ Sep 17 2003, 07:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> People are claiming that teamwork will disapear with NS: C, but keep in mind.. deathmatch or not, the best way to rack up kills for both aliens and marines will be to work as a team. Organised teams will still rule Natural Selection. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So true.
Phew, i finally managed to read the entire topic <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Personaly, i would have prefered to see objective-based maps with almost endless possibilities like it has been mentioned before in this thread: have to collect parts of a ship in a station, bring them back to the TSA crashed-ship, having to weld to "repair" the ship and be able to take off, etc etc.
If i had to compare the NS:C game mode to another game/mod, i would say science & industry instead of CS. With scientists replaced by RFK and 2 completely different teams (marines, kharaa's) instead of the s&i human vs human setting (with same tech tree). I like science & industry, even if i dont play it anymore (too much NS <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) , it is balanced cause both teams have a chance of researching same technology.
With NS, i can see MvM and AvA working very well with this game mode. But on a AvM game, i think it will be <i>very</i> hard to balance. Not impossible, but very hard. I say give it a go and let's see.
Now from a mapper's point of view, i love this idea. This unlock many limitations of the NS mapping guidelines. Exterior maps, towers with multiple levels, underwater areas, ... woo!
<!--QuoteBegin--Fnarg+Sep 17 2003, 02:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fnarg @ Sep 17 2003, 02:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I agree with TyrNemesis. Give NS:combat a chance! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And tyr - a pretty nice first post <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Once implimented there is no going back.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->These are the sort of ideas I wish were implemented into classic NS, for the marines. Small games, however organised or not, for a typical footslogger are pretty darn tedious. Spawn with lmg, build something, maybe shoot a skulk, maybe several, continue running and building. Die. Repeat. Eventually you get a better gun, providing you are winning, or at least have a decent res. income and Comm. if you aren't. Sometimes during this progression, you get gassed, a lot. Eventually of course, bigger better aliens appear, with more upgrades, of their choice too. Such is the way of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How will this be any differnent? if you have a few good players on your team a small game can be a real blast, aliens or marines. I think in small games you see some pretty crazy and desperate tactics from the marines, and then some come backs or desperate attemts to stop the marines quite "interesting"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Of course, you could always rambo, but we all know where that will get you, most times.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you are smart enough this will get you a turret factory outside the aliens hive, if your a alien, it should get you some lunch <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But, when I say "These ideas", I don't actually mean this progressive line of experience and upgrading for singular players, I just mean there be some sort of unique creativity to how you go about your game as a marine. A handful of passive and/or periodically useable abilities, say, I don't know, the ability to build slightly faster, or update motion circles quicker. I haven't given a lot of thought as to what these would be, because no doubt this will never get a second thought if brought up to them, let alone implemented. I had just hoped, since playing 1.0, 2.0 would be a little more, instead of a little different, I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you are talking about NS: C here, there is no comm.. hence no "build faster". There would aso be no motion tracking (or atleast unless its and upgrade) as there is no obs...
Also thinking of some more things:
NS is so good because of its resource model that Flayra has spent oh so long coding, its buildings, and commander mode, and hive structure. Get rid of theres, add in upgrades you "buy", and are for individuals instead of teams (or marines that is) and you have cs. You get one marine having more powerful guns than others, so you would be able to steal kills off others easier, just adding to your "wealth", which then means you get even more cool stuff, leaving you team with less. Aliens would have no gorge, a fundamental player of the team, a gorge who builds healing stations, and oc'ed areas where you can hide or fall back to when a marine is after you when your hurting. If you did have a gorge, they would not be able to advance up the levels as they do not get that many kills (im a very "all for the team" player).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets face it.. The "mindless" stereotype of DM style play is a fallacy invented by those who aren't quick enough to keep up with the intense level of play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, you're turning the tables here. Don't make the same mistake your argument is trying to point out. (be it reversed) It isn't because one type of gamer isn't able to handle this or that type of game. People just have different game style preferences. The more they play, the more they know of that game style, the more they respect the appeal of that gamestyle. However, if you know very little or have very little experience with another style then you're more likely to dismiss it with some shallow logic. I've done it. Everyone's done it.
1: Rewarding soley for kills. As a marine you have no incentive to move through high risk areas in NS:C aside from maybe on the other end is a nice open room (a marine's wet dream). You just hunker down in an effective camping spot the whole game and mow down anything that comes by. In regular NS marines can't camp/turtle because the aliens will take the nodes and turn into oni with 3 hives. Aliens can't all stay in the hive area because marines will tech up and march in an HA train or move in and build a seige base and fry the hive. In NS: Combat as long as you don't get killed they don't get stronger.
2: Attracting more players. Growth is not always good. Especially if the growth brings in more of the undesirable element. I think its what honestly killed CS for the majority of people that left it. Yeah, appealing to the lowest common denominator will get you more players but most of them are the ones looking for the quick fix, the run and shoot. Not the kind that would play REAL ns. Its the perfect game for all the rambos in NS that don't understand there are DM games for them to go solo in. However, they should just go away and load up UT2K3 or Q3 instead. No need to take away from NS (watch how many non clan run servers will switch to CO only)
3: Weapon balance. You'd have to rebalance everything for NS:C Imagine if the marines got the shotgun upgrade first. In NS at the moment shotguns kick **** very well, anything smaller than an onos and you're in trouble vs a shotgunner. Repeatedly spawning with a shotgun gives a marine an insane advantage. As would repeatedly spawning as an onos. And with timed games you'd have VERY little reason to devour someone when you can gore em in the same amount of time (HA aside.) Because the clock could run out before you finish your meal and get the kill.
4: Small games at LANs and such. Hate to say it but some games are designed for certain numbers of players. NS has a feel that its not for 5 guys hanging out. Thats what something like The Specialists is for (and inversely a 22 man game of the specialists is not fun, you get fragged every 5 seconds.)
Please tell me this is flayra's idea of a joke.
4:00 am here will probably edit this when cohherent.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3: Weapon balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The two gameplay modes can be balanced seperately. Though, it would probably be desireable to keep it as close to the original as possible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In regular NS marines can't camp/turtle because the aliens will take the nodes and turn into oni with 3 hives. Aliens can't all stay in the hive area because marines will tech up and march in an HA train or move in and build a seige base and fry the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I can switch that around. Aliens have just as much incentive to move around as marines. I would even say that Aliens have LESS incentive since much of their beginning tactics lie in ambush. So I'll switch that around using your words: "Marines can't all stay in the spawn area because aliens will tech up and march in an Onos train or move in."
And no, you can't build siege bases and there aren't hives.
I wish I understood Flayra's plan for the mode in more detail. Since there are levels, Flayra can limit GLs to level 5 and higher if he wanted to. Same with shotguns. But to upgrade to shotgun it uses one level. (fairly similar to WC3 hero abilities, actually) For example:
<b>LEVEL REQUIREMENTS:</b> Shotguns: 3 HMGs: 5 GLs: 6 (though I'm not sure if you'd want to use one in this mode) HA: 10 JP: 8 Welders: 2 (maps could have sealed off routes that open up to those willing to spend the level, but probably not beneficial in this game mode)
I'd also like to see mines in this mode. So, each time you spawn you get a pack of mines. I wouldn't give it a low level requirement though. Something like 7 when compared to my examples.
As for Kharaa, I wonder if you start out with your first two weapons or just one. Level requirements apply to aliens as well.
I only got until page 8-9 or so but I don't like this idea at all. The reasons for which have already been stated by others so I won't regurgitate them, save for that I also believe it's a step in the wrong direction and that the development effort can be better spent on marine vs marine and kharra vs kharra game modes. These would still give alternative game modes for more variety while preserving the strategic elements.
Though I seriously doubt my opinion has any impact, so all I ask is that please don't take the gorge out of this new mode. Or maybe have a special objective map where the aliens have to escort a gorge across the map and the marines have to kill it. Just like hunted in TFC or as_ maps in CS <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> bleh.
it's taken the ns team 2 years to get ns this balanced, and it still is not perfect... another game mode = less time can be spent on balance, and another 2 years getting balance for the new mode.
This game is like no other, please dont make it like the others.
Comments
The main reasons are that I want to experience other possibilities of playing NS. As a way to blow of steam, there is no better type of game than "team-DM" and I would love to see the NS-style team DM!
As for attracting new players to NS with NS:Combat, I dont think that can be bad in any way. More people means more servers and more competition in clan ladders. Of course it will have other kinds of problems like cheating might become more wide spread but its not a reason not try to get more players. All the servers I play in are by rule equipped with Cheating Death and it can counter almost any cheat out there. And last i would like to say that we dont need to fear NS turning into another CS clone - NS is the most multifaceted HL mod out there and NS:C will make it even more diverse.
HOWEVER there is validity to scenario maps like was mentioned.
IE give marines a setup and access to weapons/etc (with kills/goals) and have aliens be opposite.
I don't care about clan play... clans and tournies can cry all they want. If it doesn't work for them... they don't use it tough luck.
Basically I think this type of kill/objective based gameplay with individual upgrade options would be good, but only in the context of maps that had a theme for NS. I agree with most that just making de_dust with ns guns and textures is not where the mod should head (old tired territory with lots of competition).
I think at the point of ns:combat you are moving away from ns as a fps/rts mod and into the universe of ns. That is a good thing. Stories, special scenario maps, etc I think would benefit ns tremendously.
I would definately be interested in doing some scenario maps, or design work at the least.
I think to keep NS:combat new and exciting new weapons/mutations/upgrades would need to be added as well.
NS: Combat is a way to faciliate growth of the core "classic" NS. If I had my way, NS: C would see some tournament play, but anyone who knows anything about NS would be competing in "classic" NS. If you think we just spent over 2 years busting our butts on Commander mode and all that balance, just to have it not be used, you're wrong. NS: C is to allow NS to grow properly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, this mode will attract more people to ns. No these people will not be the sort to play ns classic.
These will be the people who are not after a game that will make them think, or they need skills to play. It will attract the kind of people who want some mindless repeditive fragging.
Personaly i dont think this is what the community needs, NS, for me at least, is a game which requires thinking, concentration, and quite a bit of skill to play. THIS is why you get the cs people come play for one game, give up and never play again, its because they are not willing to play a game that doesn't gives them that mindless, repeditive, non thinking action.
I played CS for the first time in 2-2.5 years the other day, and i was really really disgusted at how it played. Not only every round been exactly the same, but the fact that there was no teamwork, no strategy, and the be good, all you had to do is be able to point at someones head.
I dont think this is something that NS is in need of, NS is a very very unique, addictive and strategic game.
If the people you are going to be aiming NS: C @ do not wish to play NS, then why make them? This is not going to help the NS that we know now, you cannot possible say that those who do not want to play ns now, will want to play ns after having played NS: C.
Once steam has been fully integrated into ns i plan on donating to you guys. I have never donated to any other game apart from Earth 2025 (which i had played for 6 years), i would like to donate on a regular basis and this is only because i <b>love</b> the game. I have never had a game like this before, and believe that NS: C may be the ruining of ns as we know it.
If you do, thank you.
At first, this looks to be a turnoff. I'm all for a new game mode, but one big threat to me is the universe continuum. How would a "deathmatch" make sense?
Now, just off the spit, I can come up with some possibilities. These are two spinoffs of close ideas.
- One, is have it be something like the standard ns, but with scripting of otherwise unscripted functions. There would be no real commander, and no gorges. However, they would be "implied," and team progress would be reflected by how well the people are doing with kills. Personal technology advancement, as well as spawning advancement and control of areas maybe, would be the plusses. Perhaps situations with no rez, so the only rez intake is strictly from kills. Half goes to personal stash, half goes to "team" stash. Highest team stash wins.
This keeps everyone happy ^_^ Though it sounds to me insanely complex. But, I think it would be needed, considering unless you plan on a total class revamp too, using existing upgrades would make no sense in a flat-out deathmatch game. I mean, half the stuff is designed for specific surgical offensiveness, like vile bomb, or spores, or even the grenade launcher. You can't really measure them up on a scale of usefulness, because they are all useful in different ways.
SO, depending on the "situations" for these deathmatches, you'd have reason to open up all new classes, or semi-altered. If these were some partially wide outdoor maps, sniper class upgrades would be useful, which would otherwise be useless on the normally enclosed, tactical ns maps.
-=OR=-
- Another possibility is to make these wide scale, perhaps out door-ish maps, with obviously no resource nodes. The aliens would have self upgrading capabilities based on income from kills. I'd figure they'd be slightly different from normal ns aliens *as the general upgrade system has potential to be awkward for strictly player to player combat.*
The marines are set down on a dropship, and don't get any rez/help from the command ship unless they provide their own rez*aka killing aliens* which grants them personal upgrades.
Now all you need to do is find a "point" for combating endlessly respawning aliens in an undefeatable situation, and then you have yourself a new mode ^_^ My first suggestion might give a way for a team to "win," by reaching a particular kill number (perhaps set by the server?)
ANYWAY, I hope this made some sense, sorry for writing so much.
Oh, and get rid of pheromones. Replace it with something to void motion tracking, and to do something else until motion tracking is upgraded on the marines. That is all.
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://mobianwarrior.tripod.com/monster/main.html' target='_blank'>Monster, the unofficial 1.0 to 2.0 fanfic.</a>
Such insinuations are ridiculous. I consider myself a mix of DM and Teamplay and I seem to do pretty well, as I seem to get my fair share of hack-ussations.
I can already see how how I'll use co_maps. Let me give you some examples:
1) the server I'm playing on switches to ns_lost or ns_mineshaft
2) non-english speaking comm (speaking noobish instead)
3) non-english speaking team (once against speaking noobish.. I once knew this ancient language, but no longer :/)
When your comm and team doesn't understand how to play, or your alien team is more intent on devouring marines for kicks rather than winning....
Go play NS without all the self appointed "teamplay" users. Just go play with folks who understand the objectives!
(Of course.. there is always the HAMPTONS if you need to get away from the rabble now!) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
people are calling DM "mindless" as it requires no strategy or thinking... its just run into a room, point click (or click point), and then you die/kill the other guy and move into the next room.
The thing in cs that uses the most brain power is choosing which weapon you should get.
HOWEVER there is validity to scenario maps like was mentioned.
IE give marines a setup and access to weapons/etc (with kills/goals) and have aliens be opposite.
I don't care about clan play... clans and tournies can cry all they want. If it doesn't work for them... they don't use it tough luck.
Basically I think this type of kill/objective based gameplay with individual upgrade options would be good, but only in the context of maps that had a theme for NS. I agree with most that just making de_dust with ns guns and textures is not where the mod should head (old tired territory with lots of competition).
I think at the point of ns:combat you are moving away from ns as a fps/rts mod and into the universe of ns. That is a good thing. Stories, special scenario maps, etc I think would benefit ns tremendously.
I would definately be interested in doing some scenario maps, or design work at the least.
I think to keep NS:combat new and exciting new weapons/mutations/upgrades would need to be added as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS is a team game, individualising upgrades/weapons for marines is not team oriented.
If you want your kill/objective based gameplay (note: NOT <b>team</b>play) go play some cs. essentialy what i believe this is doing is trying to get cs players to come play "ns" because its the same thing just different guns.
I have very strong views on this, feel free to flame me all you like.
I don't know whether NS:C will be an interesting gameplay alternative, or a detrimental decision which damages NS. I think it can go either way. It's worth noting that when HL2 comes, the disliked moron players will all migrate to HL2 anyways, and only the cool people will be left. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
If there is an admin on, it would be possible to play NS:C until more players show up, that could be useful.
I personally would rather see fully tactical(hives and comms, not NS:C style) MvM and AvA maps before NS:C. I would rather see objective based NS maps before NS:C. But timewasting is not much of an issue, since NS:C is probably easier to make than other new modes.
I also think that it would draw some more players to the NS world. Introduce them to NS in a much faster way. I wonder how many guys that would have loved NS, just simply quit after their first 10 or 20 minutes on a badly losing team their first time in a NS server.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cant you opt to just upgrade the weapon strength?
I mean if you go from an LMG to a shot gun, perhaps you like the LMG better for its range?
Now you are stuck with a short range weapon instead that you dont really want.
I personaly dont like the round death match thing. One of the greatest reasons I love NS as my favorite mod is b/c its different and matches can be as long or as short as you want.
Death match just seems to "dumb down or simplify" the game.
Im not putting any sarcasm into the next sentence at all so no one better take it like Im being insulting b/c its not ment to be.
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
But is this part of your "vision" of what NS is supposed to be or just something you wanted to test out in the forums?
PS Love NS its the best mod ever. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
[...snip]
Aliens start with 3 hives, all the nodes, and 0 res each.
Marines start with everything researched except lv. 2 & 3 weapons, phase tech, MT, and everyone in the squad either has HA/HMG/Welders and some of them have JP/Shotty. However, they only have 100 res, start a good distance away from their only commchair, and have no nodes.
...
So there you have it; aliens must hold off the marines untill they can get some fades/onos into play, where as the marines need their base(for ammo of the least of things!) and then the hives to avoid being pounded by higher evolution aliens.
This type of gameplay would reverse the roles of each side; aliens would only need res, and marines would only need location to win (and some res still). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like Forlorn's idea. Other teamplay gamemodes would be great (like the above, or an escape map where the marines have to penetrate the alien defenses to hit the ship self-destruct button and escape)
The twitch-deathmatch stuff isn't what I come to NS for, personally. It's the tactics & strategy. I bet most people who like NS have also liked similar RTS games.
One of your concerns seems to be scaling the game for smaller servers. In 1.04, map creators solved this by creating ns_missle_command, ns_siege, and other small maps that don't require a full, conquesting team. I think some smaller maps would do well.
I see a lot of people fearing the prospect of this new game mode for two main reasons: 1) It will make NS like counterstrike, and 2) The Alien team will get destroyed for various reasons (mostly shotgun-related)
I'll say up front that I like the idea and that it has a lot of potential. Sometimes you can't find someone who's willing to command, and that can make a game end pretty damn quickly. Like Flayra mentions on the main page, this mode will make small games much more interesting, because let's face it--with how NS's resource system works, Aliens have an overwhelming advantage in small (e.g. 3vs3) games, wherein they earn resources quickly enough to repeatedly become an Onos even with only 1 or 2 resource towers.
In regards to the community's fear that this new mode will destroy NS... Fear not. Not every server out there is going to run it, and if people truly end up disliking it, it will not be popular. Myself, I simply adore the Rocket Crowbar mod, but I can never find a server that's running it. It's apparently unpopular, and therefore there are plenty of Counterstrike, DoD, and NS servers instead.
Here is how I (as a non-team member) envision NS Combat:
<i>I've stepped into the infantry portal starside, and I find myself standing amid a pile of wreckage that used to be the command room. I'm with several of my fellow marines, looking confused, yet still conditioned and combat-ready. We won't be setting up a base here, I think. I load up my LMG and turn an uneasy eye toward the three doors leading from this room out into the unknown of the facility we've entered, and then with even more dread I spot two open vents above us and curse silently at the engineers who designed this facility to be the Kharaa deathtrap it's about to become.
...Luckily, though we don't have the Command network to help us set up shop, the TSA Frigate Vorw?rtscschild is in orbit to support us with reinforcements and (as threat-level dictates) heavier arms. I've fought Kharaa before... they leave a smell in the air, and I smell it now. I've come to associate that smell with pain and death. The drugs in my system try to supress my fear, but no drug can quell a fear that rises from the depths of one's soul.
We've formed up into loose squads to set out on patrol and assess the situation. Everyone here already knows, though. The claw divots in the walls and cielings tells us all what we're about to face, and the crushed bulkheads below reveal an even greater danger... God, I love being a Frontiersman. Bring it on.</i>
The NS team have proved all the way through development that they know how to balance a game. The first released of NS:C probably won't be perfect... But this concept has a lot of potential. If I can make one recommendation, it's that everyone provide their constructive criticisms and ideas for the development of the new game mode rather than simply trying to shoot it down outright.
I look forward to development!
<3 the <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
i personally love the idea becuase it isn't cs but you can play it without many players. maybe even some server plugin could make it so that when there arn't many people on the server you could play NS:C.
and if its such a stupid/horrid idea it will go the way of the terroist escape mode in cs (yes there was actually a mode in cs where the ts were like vips)
I believe that it is the current community members that will dislike the mod, as it is the opposite of everything they (or most of us) play ns for. This will create a severe partion of the NS community: "Deathmatch" and "Classic". I think that very few people will come for classic ns if they are join NS community solely because of NS: C.
I just hope that flayra doesnt (unintentionaly) kill ns with this idea, either though lack of players, players who are not friendly, or though a community division. As he said, 2 years in the making... how bout we get some of the MvM or AvA that was in your original design docs before this? or even improve ns as it is now, with more classes/weapons.
The thing in cs that uses the most brain power is choosing which weapon you should get. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm.. I would have thought the guy that hosts the sYn server would have understood that DM isn't mindless at all. Some of the people who play so called "DM" games, may play mindlessly....
But - the clans/players that are good at the game.. the so called kings of the game, they definetly do not play mindlessly. Do you think a mindless attitude is going to win the game?
<b>Lets face it.. The "mindless" stereotype of DM style play is a fallacy invented by those who aren't quick enough to keep up with the intense level of play.</b>
Look at Axe, shampoo, or remiCs. They are the ultimate DM players... and they make their NS teams great. Interesting that such supposedly mindless players lead their teams to victory in a so called "thinking" game.
The aforementioned players excel because for one reason or another their mind is better adapted to fragging than any of the rest of us. Maybe its genetics.. maybe learned? But its definetly a tangible mental process involving which way to move, which way to look, which way to track that skulk coming at you at high speeds.
Anything but mindless.
And tyr - a pretty nice first post <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Of course, you could always rambo, but we all know where <i>that</i> will get you, most times.
But, when I say "These ideas", I don't actually mean this progressive line of experience and upgrading for singular players, I just mean there be some sort of unique creativity to how you go about your game as a marine. A handful of passive and/or periodically useable abilities, say, I don't know, the ability to build slightly faster, or update motion circles quicker. I haven't given a lot of thought as to what these would be, because no doubt this will never get a second thought if brought up to them, let alone implemented. I had just hoped, since playing 1.0, 2.0 would be a little more, instead of a little different, I guess.
As long as there a no maps that turn out as bad as Bast and Nothing do, it'll work out <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
But - the clans/players that are good at the game.. the so called kings of the game, they definetly do not play mindlessly. Do you think a mindless attitude is going to win the game?
<b>Lets face it.. The "mindless" stereotype of DM style play is a fallacy invented by those who aren't quick enough to keep up with the intense level of play.</b>
Look at Axe, shampoo, or remiCs. They are the ultimate DM players... and they make their NS teams great. Interesting that such supposedly mindless players lead their teams to victory in a so called "thinking" game.
The aforementioned players excel because for one reason or another their mind is better adapted to fragging than any of the rest of us. Maybe its genetics.. maybe learned? But its definetly a tangible mental process involving which way to move, which way to look, which way to track that skulk coming at you at high speeds.
Anything but mindless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have an agreement with syn as to their server, if you have played with syn member sin public games (those who know their alias's/wonid's) then you will see that they are very skilled players and i have seen remics get an entire team to evolve to lerk to spore up a phase game which we were seiging from (i was the comm).
All clan games are essentialy team-dm, there is ALOT of teamwork involved to be able to pull off what syn do. Look at their ham vs syn demo, they had one person guarding base with the best gun at ALL times, they move in a group, they all worked together. deathmatch is where there is no teamwork. counter strike there is no team work other than "hey can someone guard me while i put this bomb down?" or 1 person following some else.
I do not believe that it is invented by those who cannot keep up. Before i started playing solely on my own US servers, i was one of WA's (western australia) better players (in the top 10). I can take deathmatch at a pretty good pace without too much sweat, i've been in 24-32 player HLDM matches at lans and it is not all that difficult. It's a complete lack of strategy, and just all round point/click.
I think where the "mindless" idea comes from is more the lack of strategies/need of working with others. Hence it is "mindless" in there there is no real work involved other than keeping up with the game.
NS can get VERY intense, get a 24 player server, you have 12 on 12 with mass attacks all over the place, aliens franticaly trying to stop seiging marines at hives, its a great deal of fun, and it still requires alot of "Everyone to [insert name here] QUICK!" over the mic. Just yesterday i was in a game with 3 on 4 (4 been rines). us aliens (lyndak, daybreaker, and myself) were running everywhere trying to stop the crazy marines seiging every damn place we built. it was a very very fast game (took about 40 minutes to finnish though).
There is nothing in NS like been a lone marine trying to desperately build a TF/seige in a alien hive where there are aliens near by, and you base is getting f***ed by a few ono's and this is the last hive they hive. It gives you a massive adrenaline boost that you cannot get in CS/dm.
Sorry about this post going all over the place but im just writing what im thinking (i have a hyperactive mind that goes all over the place)
You can compare it to CS all you like but this is just as much CS as it is DOD, FLF, TFC, etc. Do you guys hate CS so much that you'll dismiss ANY gametype that allows you to personally purchase ugprades? CS = rounds. NS:C = respawn. CS = modern combat. NS:C = sci-fi combat. Pointless argument, so give it up.
This won't damage the original NS gameplay. The people who love and play NS will continue to play it.
So true.
Personaly, i would have prefered to see objective-based maps with almost endless possibilities like it has been mentioned before in this thread: have to collect parts of a ship in a station, bring them back to the TSA crashed-ship, having to weld to "repair" the ship and be able to take off, etc etc.
If i had to compare the NS:C game mode to another game/mod, i would say science & industry instead of CS. With scientists replaced by RFK and 2 completely different teams (marines, kharaa's) instead of the s&i human vs human setting (with same tech tree). I like science & industry, even if i dont play it anymore (too much NS <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) , it is balanced cause both teams have a chance of researching same technology.
With NS, i can see MvM and AvA working very well with this game mode. But on a AvM game, i think it will be <i>very</i> hard to balance. Not impossible, but very hard. I say give it a go and let's see.
Now from a mapper's point of view, i love this idea. This unlock many limitations of the NS mapping guidelines. Exterior maps, towers with multiple levels, underwater areas, ... woo!
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
And tyr - a pretty nice first post <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once implimented there is no going back.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->These are the sort of ideas I wish were implemented into classic NS, for the marines. Small games, however organised or not, for a typical footslogger are pretty darn tedious. Spawn with lmg, build something, maybe shoot a skulk, maybe several, continue running and building. Die. Repeat. Eventually you get a better gun, providing you are winning, or at least have a decent res. income and Comm. if you aren't. Sometimes during this progression, you get gassed, a lot. Eventually of course, bigger better aliens appear, with more upgrades, of their choice too. Such is the way of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How will this be any differnent? if you have a few good players on your team a small game can be a real blast, aliens or marines. I think in small games you see some pretty crazy and desperate tactics from the marines, and then some come backs or desperate attemts to stop the marines quite "interesting"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Of course, you could always rambo, but we all know where that will get you, most times.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you are smart enough this will get you a turret factory outside the aliens hive, if your a alien, it should get you some lunch <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But, when I say "These ideas", I don't actually mean this progressive line of experience and upgrading for singular players, I just mean there be some sort of unique creativity to how you go about your game as a marine. A handful of passive and/or periodically useable abilities, say, I don't know, the ability to build slightly faster, or update motion circles quicker. I haven't given a lot of thought as to what these would be, because no doubt this will never get a second thought if brought up to them, let alone implemented. I had just hoped, since playing 1.0, 2.0 would be a little more, instead of a little different, I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you are talking about NS: C here, there is no comm.. hence no "build faster". There would aso be no motion tracking (or atleast unless its and upgrade) as there is no obs...
Also thinking of some more things:
NS is so good because of its resource model that Flayra has spent oh so long coding, its buildings, and commander mode, and hive structure. Get rid of theres, add in upgrades you "buy", and are for individuals instead of teams (or marines that is) and you have cs. You get one marine having more powerful guns than others, so you would be able to steal kills off others easier, just adding to your "wealth", which then means you get even more cool stuff, leaving you team with less. Aliens would have no gorge, a fundamental player of the team, a gorge who builds healing stations, and oc'ed areas where you can hide or fall back to when a marine is after you when your hurting. If you did have a gorge, they would not be able to advance up the levels as they do not get that many kills (im a very "all for the team" player).
1: Rewarding soley for kills. As a marine you have no incentive to move through high risk areas in NS:C aside from maybe on the other end is a nice open room (a marine's wet dream). You just hunker down in an effective camping spot the whole game and mow down anything that comes by. In regular NS marines can't camp/turtle because the aliens will take the nodes and turn into oni with 3 hives. Aliens can't all stay in the hive area because marines will tech up and march in an HA train or move in and build a seige base and fry the hive. In NS: Combat as long as you don't get killed they don't get stronger.
2: Attracting more players. Growth is not always good. Especially if the growth brings in more of the undesirable element. I think its what honestly killed CS for the majority of people that left it. Yeah, appealing to the lowest common denominator will get you more players but most of them are the ones looking for the quick fix, the run and shoot. Not the kind that would play REAL ns. Its the perfect game for all the rambos in NS that don't understand there are DM games for them to go solo in. However, they should just go away and load up UT2K3 or Q3 instead. No need to take away from NS (watch how many non clan run servers will switch to CO only)
3: Weapon balance. You'd have to rebalance everything for NS:C Imagine if the marines got the shotgun upgrade first. In NS at the moment shotguns kick **** very well, anything smaller than an onos and you're in trouble vs a shotgunner. Repeatedly spawning with a shotgun gives a marine an insane advantage. As would repeatedly spawning as an onos. And with timed games you'd have VERY little reason to devour someone when you can gore em in the same amount of time (HA aside.) Because the clock could run out before you finish your meal and get the kill.
4: Small games at LANs and such. Hate to say it but some games are designed for certain numbers of players. NS has a feel that its not for 5 guys hanging out. Thats what something like The Specialists is for (and inversely a 22 man game of the specialists is not fun, you get fragged every 5 seconds.)
Please tell me this is flayra's idea of a joke.
4:00 am here will probably edit this when cohherent.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In regular NS marines can't camp/turtle because the aliens will take the nodes and turn into oni with 3 hives. Aliens can't all stay in the hive area because marines will tech up and march in an HA train or move in and build a seige base and fry the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I can switch that around. Aliens have just as much incentive to move around as marines. I would even say that Aliens have LESS incentive since much of their beginning tactics lie in ambush. So I'll switch that around using your words: "Marines can't all stay in the spawn area because aliens will tech up and march in an Onos train or move in."
And no, you can't build siege bases and there aren't hives.
<b>LEVEL REQUIREMENTS:</b>
Shotguns: 3
HMGs: 5
GLs: 6 (though I'm not sure if you'd want to use one in this mode)
HA: 10
JP: 8
Welders: 2 (maps could have sealed off routes that open up to those willing to spend the level, but probably not beneficial in this game mode)
I'd also like to see mines in this mode. So, each time you spawn you get a pack of mines. I wouldn't give it a low level requirement though. Something like 7 when compared to my examples.
As for Kharaa, I wonder if you start out with your first two weapons or just one. Level requirements apply to aliens as well.
Though I seriously doubt my opinion has any impact, so all I ask is that please don't take the gorge out of this new mode. Or maybe have a special objective map where the aliens have to escort a gorge across the map and the marines have to kill it. Just like hunted in TFC or as_ maps in CS <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> bleh.
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
This game is like no other, please dont make it like the others.
Theres only one NS though