I'm not sure if you saw my point farcry, whether I had much of one or not. I just wish NS itself had a little more unique choice about being a marine. Weapon and armour upgrades would be silly, but other "helpful" choices, like the ability to spawn a medpack for yourself periodically, or something of similar nature, that wouldn't be so silly as to completely turn around a game, but still be helpful.
It could probably just be summed up by saying, give being a Marine a little more variety.
As for how much similarity NS:C will have to CS, we will see.
I love the idea of new gameplay modes that totally change the experience. In my opinion, you should make a ton more of these. One for every style of play.
In any event, good work. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--peacekeeper+Sep 17 2003, 04:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (peacekeeper @ Sep 17 2003, 04:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not sure if you saw my point farcry, whether I had much of one or not. I just wish NS itself had a little more unique choice about being a marine. Weapon and armour upgrades would be silly, but other "helpful" choices, like the ability to spawn a medpack for yourself periodically, or something of similar nature, that wouldn't be so silly as to completely turn around a game, but still be helpful.
It could probably just be summed up by saying, give being a Marine a little more variety.
As for how much similarity NS:C will have to CS, we will see. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> in such a game as NS: C buying a medpack or ammo would be good. other upgrades such as TSA standard weapons/armour getting upgraded for one person along seems a little silly to me
I like it. It doesn't step on normal NS's turf too much and provides an alternative gameplay for different players and different moods. There are times when the normal NS feels like too much and you would just prefer doing some quick fighting. Naturally, the hardcore fans detest the idea, but that's to be expected - too much change and too much like CS. However, I don't think they are the ones this new gameplay mode is targeted at so I don't see a problem with them not liking it.
This would be really useful for introducing new players to the game - they can learn how individual weapons function - before throwing in the RTS element.
Presuming these will be really short games (5 mins?), I would suggest throwing in one round of NS:C between every map change.
If a server is empty, it would automatically revert to NS:C, and only when it gains a certain number of players (6?) will it change back to regular NS.
NS:C could also be implemented as a 'Sudden Death' mode for wars - if the game results in a draw, the winner could be decided by a quick game of NS:C.
To keep some connection to the classic resouce system, I suggest that players gain 10 personal resources for each level they achieve. For alien evolutions, it would cost a certain amount of resources to evolve into a higher lifeform, depending on your current form. To evolve into an Onos (100 res) from a Lerk (30 res), for example, would require 70 resources. To revert back to a Fade (50 res), you would be "refunded" 50 resources. Changing between marine weapons could also work in this manner. In both cases, the change would not become active until you respawn. Other upgrades, such as Motion Tracking or purchasing a new level of Abilities would be permanent.
Finally, if the simple resource system is adopted, it should be possible for players to donate resources (in lots of 10) to one another. This could be done simply by pressing the +use key while facing another player, as it has no other real use in this mode (apart from activating buttons/switches).
Just some light suggestions, I really like the idea of NS:C as it currently stands. It will never match up to classic NS, however!
<!--QuoteBegin---Driftwood-+Sep 17 2003, 04:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-Driftwood- @ Sep 17 2003, 04:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I like it. It doesn't step on normal NS's turf too much and provides an alternative gameplay for different players and different moods. There are times when the normal NS feels like too much and you would just prefer doing some quick fighting. Naturally, the hardcore fans detest the idea, but that's to be expected - too much change and too much like CS. However, I don't think they are the ones this new gameplay mode is targeted at so I don't see a problem with them not liking it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You are essentialy agreeing that this will divide the NS community into 2...
What i would like to see, is if this <b>must</b> happen, then please make it another mod...
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I love the idea of NS:C.
And don't worry, people. It won't push out NS Vanilla -- Vanilla is far too good. If it weren't, it would have been replaced by CS, DoD and other similar games already.
Besides, I always go back to DoD for a game or two after a long, bad or exhausting game of NS -- just to relax. Now, I can relax with NS! Yey!
And there is the posibilities of honing your individual skills with different equipment/classes/upgrades. And the DM rambo people might stay in NS:C and away from NS Vanilla?
Just like WC3: Defense of the Ancients, Tower Defense and Hero Arena -- it will be a great addition to an already great game.
I like it. Especially public game might be more fun for beginners as they dont know the game. I like the WC3 plugin in CS(even though I dont relly play cs) and this will be far better.
On the other hand, Original NS is still the standard game and should get the most attention imo.
yowch.. just read the whole damn topic... my eyes hurt.
Now for my 2pence on it...
Initially, I was horrified... it smacks of turning NS into NS:CS, and stands to kill the classic game as an influx of DMers start demanding more NS:Co servers, and the limited number of NS servers dwindles....
BUT
I can see flayra's logic. <b> NS is not an instantly accessible game. This is bad for NS </b> NS classic is difficult to get to grips with, and needs some method of easing DM/CS players into the intricacies of the classic game.
BUT
A CS style kills=better guns/upgrades plain TeamDM will not do this. it will only add to the rambo-itis already plaguing NS. for many people who come in through CS -> NS:Co -> NS, NS:Co will only reinforce their twitch-like tendancies, and will do nothing to aid them in playing NS except familiarising them with the weapons/evolutions present. it will do nothing for their teamplay. It will also do nothing to reduce the culture shock experienced once they try playing NS. NS:Co is too dissimilar from NS pure.
THUS
in my opinion, NS:Co should NOT be like a team DM, but should instead be similar to UT's Domination mode:
- Keep the upgrades for kills concept. - rewarding the team for playing well is good. (but should not be the sole concept). this will show that even in NS pure, good players will be given better stuff by the commander/have more res to upgrade themselves. Make the upgrade interface close to the right click context menu found in the main game. this will familiarise them with it in advance.
- Treat the res nodes as the domination points. so by holding more res nodes than the enemy, you score more points.
-Marines need 2 players present at a res node to claim it. once present, it is placed automatically, and they must build it (build time is only 2 seconds however, just like dev mode). this will encourage moving in groups. further to this, by securing a res node, those marines gain kill points, to spend on upgrades (completing objectives is thus also rewarded)
-Aliens require a gorge to build res nodes (again, takes 2 seconds). gorge should be an easily available upgrade (say after only one or two kills) - alternatively, one player may be made gorge at start, randomly (may p*ss people off just like being the VP in as_ missions in Cs did). the gorge can build alone, but should have defence from other aliens if they want to win many nodes.
- an enemy res node must be destroyed before you can reclaim the res for your team, but res nodes on both sides have much less health (to keep the speed up)
- Games last a fixed amount of time, and the winning team is determined by the amount of res gathered (ie. points for holding nodes). this way, teamplay is still encouraged, and the kills4upgrades is simply a method to make your team more effective at doing the real objective, claiming res.
-This keeps the basics of NS (getting res, upgrading, teamwork) and provides a stepping stone from TDM/CS/DoD etc by way of introducing NS concepts into an already familiar (UT:Domination) setup.
<b>Edit</b> - also, players should NOT be able to choose which side they start on. by forcing random, it makes them have to get to grips with both sides of the NS coin. which can only be good. too many new players stay marine for months, because they are comfortable with point/shoot, and aliens seem dauntingly complex (and melee oriented. scary...) this will help players moving to NS Pure to be better over-all players, with some familiarity of both sides.
although i dont like the idea of 2 different types of gameplay in the same mod, i must admit i really like the TeamDM idea behind NS:C. It may seem it breaks comunnity in 2, it does not. NS:C is a easy game to start playing NS if you got no previous experience, and its a way of getting more players to play it. Its for quick and small games, for smal lans or group of friends. You can always get into a normal ns_ server and play a "serious" game.
<!--QuoteBegin--SeraphyGoodness+Sep 17 2003, 10:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SeraphyGoodness @ Sep 17 2003, 10:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> in my opinion, NS:Co should NOT be like a team DM, but should instead be similar to UT's Domination mode: <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's been said before, but Seraphy has said it best. NS: Co would be much better as "NS Lite" rather than another flat Team DM game. A game mode that does not encourage teamwork will fail as a method of properly introducing new players to NS.
Ok to sum up my opinions so far in a single post: This feels like a deathmatch style mode, having thought about this I feel I might like this. Would possibly give real meaning to "superskulk" ^_^. After playing DMC I can honestly say that there is nothing wrong with a little mindless fun once in a while. Another reason I now like it is the fact that the modee will be much less of a server hog -> possibly to the point where a server can be run as easily as a CS server. This is good in a way. As for the NS:C possibly becoming more popular...well.. I don't know. Short of artificially limiting the NS:C game mode to encourage people to play the full mode, I am out of ideas.
<!--QuoteBegin--farcry+Sep 17 2003, 12:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (farcry @ Sep 17 2003, 12:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You are essentialy agreeing that this will divide the NS community into 2... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There is always a certain group of people among the hard core fans who won't accept any kind of change or new features and are therefore impossible to please when developing a mod further. Often it's because the new features are either "selling out" or "catering for people we don't want here"
So I'm agreeing that this will divide the community into two - 95% of players and 5% of players.
SeraphyGoodness, the only problem with your idea is that it doesn't work as well with a small number of players, which was one of the main intents of this new game mode. Your idea does sound intriguing though. It would be nice to have this as a "fun" or "speed" mode for classic NS maps, but I'm not sure how others would handle this idea.
Hmm sounds promising... but if u want more action there is ONE thing that u need and that is the ability for ONE player to make a difference. In other words, you must add ALOT MORE SKILL to the game. This means gun recoil, bullet penetration, new weapons, possibly a locational damage system and you must totally rework the aliens... so that they have ranged attacks. It's not really possible for ONE skulk to kill 4 marines... nor is it possible for one marine to kill 4 skulks and u can't really measure Marine skill to Alien skill because they're completely different. What people what in action games is to know when you are seriously "pwning" somebody or if ur opponent has equal skill i..e equal skill results in 1 player winning but with very low health. Now it doens' really work with skulks and marines.. coz marines have to aim and skulks have to manuver. These are 2 different things which require 2 different skills. Also I would like to hear more details about NS:C. Do you want it to be a tactical, taut experience? Or do you want it to be full-blown action (quake style).
<!--QuoteBegin---Driftwood-+Sep 17 2003, 05:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-Driftwood- @ Sep 17 2003, 05:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--farcry+Sep 17 2003, 12:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (farcry @ Sep 17 2003, 12:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You are essentialy agreeing that this will divide the NS community into 2... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is always a certain group of people among the hard core fans who won't accept any kind of change or new features and are therefore impossible to please when developing a mod further. Often it's because the new features are either "selling out" or "catering for people we don't want here"
So I'm agreeing that this will divide the community into two - 95% of players and 5% of players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not opposed to changing NS, i much like change for <b>better</b>.
95% been the cs players, 5% been the people who have played for some time.
---
Instead of double posting i would like to say that i think SeraphyGoodness' idea is very very good. it will work with a small amount of people, and will most likely be a higher speed game with less people. This also introduces people effectively into ns.
Y'know, I was originally really unhappy about the idea, but it's growing on me.
I love the original NS, but sometimes there's a lot of fun to be had challenging skulks to knife fights or just shotgun rushing, and that's the kind of fun that will be captured here. I envision it as the thing that gets played when you have fifteen minutes and want to blow off some steam or are getting a little burnt out on regular NS (and yes, it does happen, hehe).
Also, maybe this will take some of the trash off of the regular servers (of course, it could always backfire into making everyone think they're the original Rambo, hehe). When I think about it, you'll always be able to get the dedicated NS players on the regular servers, and they're generally what makes for an exciting game.
<!--QuoteBegin--PseudoKnight+Sep 17 2003, 04:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Sep 17 2003, 04:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets face it.. The "mindless" stereotype of DM style play is a fallacy invented by those who aren't quick enough to keep up with the intense level of play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, you're turning the tables here. Don't make the same mistake your argument is trying to point out. (be it reversed) It isn't because one type of gamer isn't able to handle this or that type of game. People just have different game style preferences. The more they play, the more they know of that game style, the more they respect the appeal of that gamestyle. However, if you know very little or have very little experience with another style then you're more likely to dismiss it with some shallow logic. I've done it. Everyone's done it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, you're right. Its all about game style. I don't like the fact that half of this community likes to oppress certain game styles. Especially when NS is a essentially a derivative work of that type of style.
Anyone seen the episode of the Simpsons where Marge get's breast implants? Lisa asks her if she likes all the attention she's recieving, and Marge replies that "All that attention is from the wrong kind of people".
That's what I think of when I look at this. I think that whilst more people will be coming into the game, they're not the kind of people we really want. If someone wants to play NS, they're expecting something differant: an FPS/RTS hybrid that places emphasis on tactics, stratagy and teamwork. NS:C doesn't seem to be offering anything more than a shootup. Right now if we NS players want that, we just go play a few rounds of TFC or CS. NS has been so successful because it is so differant to everything else out there: why do we want to enter into an already saturated deathmatch market?
Yes, NS has a steep learning curve. That's not an uncommen occurance. First time I played Warcraft 3 online, I had my rump handed to me over and over again. Did I stop playing? No, because I like the game. Seriously, do we want people playing the game when their attitude is "Well I tried comming on my second game ever and lost miserably so this game should be made heaps simpler"? Losing teaches you valuable lessons about tactics and stratagy in the game. If people can't learn from their mistakes in NS, why should they be playing the game?
What is the overall goal here? If it's training people for vanilla NS then I must say there are better ways to do that, such as hazard courses, manuals or just plain simple experiance. Throwing people into a DM situation encourages exactly the kind of mindset that commanders and alien teams fight to eradicate. All I can see in this project is an attempt to get thousands more players to play the game. But why? As the front page asserts, NS has been downloaded over 1.5 million times and has over 25,000 players daily. That's not a small number. We are a big, popular mod. If Flayra made the game retail tommorow, I'd say it would be a success. But that's not my choice to make.
I'll see how this whole NS:C thing goes, but my first impression is not favorable. There, I've been honest in my feelings on the matter.
Well think it could be fun.. it worked as just a map change.. so in every 4 games or so it would pop up.. it would ahve a nice feeling of bonus lvl around it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'd like to voice my support for SeraphyGoodness' idea. The game can still be played 1v1 or 2v1, the domination points would simply be disabled. Also to further facilitate this, the total upgrades and domination points could be combined to reach a final score.
<!--QuoteBegin--SeraphyGoodness+Sep 17 2003, 12:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SeraphyGoodness @ Sep 17 2003, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> in my opinion, NS:Co should NOT be like a team DM, but should instead be similar to UT's Domination mode:
- Keep the upgrades for kills concept. - rewarding the team for playing well is good. (but should not be the sole concept). this will show that even in NS pure, good players will be given better stuff by the commander/have more res to upgrade themselves. Make the upgrade interface close to the right click context menu found in the main game. this will familiarise them with it in advance.
- Treat the res nodes as the domination points. so by holding more res nodes than the enemy, you score more points.
-Marines need 2 players present at a res node to claim it. once present, it is placed automatically, and they must build it (build time is only 2 seconds however, just like dev mode). this will encourage moving in groups. further to this, by securing a res node, those marines gain kill points, to spend on upgrades (completing objectives is thus also rewarded)
-Aliens require a gorge to build res nodes (again, takes 2 seconds). gorge should be an easily available upgrade (say after only one or two kills) - alternatively, one player may be made gorge at start, randomly (may p*ss people off just like being the VP in as_ missions in Cs did). the gorge can build alone, but should have defence from other aliens if they want to win many nodes.
- an enemy res node must be destroyed before you can reclaim the res for your team, but res nodes on both sides have much less health (to keep the speed up)
- Games last a fixed amount of time, and the winning team is determined by the amount of res gathered (ie. points for holding nodes). this way, teamplay is still encouraged, and the kills4upgrades is simply a method to make your team more effective at doing the real objective, claiming res.
-This keeps the basics of NS (getting res, upgrading, teamwork) and provides a stepping stone from TDM/CS/DoD etc by way of introducing NS concepts into an already familiar (UT:Domination) setup.
<b>Edit</b> - also, players should NOT be able to choose which side they start on. by forcing random, it makes them have to get to grips with both sides of the NS coin. which can only be good. too many new players stay marine for months, because they are comfortable with point/shoot, and aliens seem dauntingly complex (and melee oriented. scary...) this will help players moving to NS Pure to be better over-all players, with some familiarity of both sides. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hooray@Seraphy's idea ! UT DOM + S&I = pwn !
What if marines just....camp out in their base? Shooting things from far away should be easy enough, they get a ton of upgrades, aliens can only rush and rush, not even being able to go gorge. The "you stole my kill" on this mode would be horrible, considering the kills determain the upgrades you get.
<!--QuoteBegin--MrMojo+Sep 17 2003, 01:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Sep 17 2003, 01:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> About the official idea, btw :
What if marines just....camp out in their base? Shooting things from far away should be easy enough, they get a ton of upgrades, aliens can only rush and rush, not even being able to go gorge. The "you stole my kill" on this mode would be horrible, considering the kills determain the upgrades you get. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> thats the main reason i posted my NS:Domination idea... it forces both sides to move out and expand, rather than turtling. cos turtled marines in defensive postions would be a pwn-all. wipe out the expected(and inevitable) skulk rush, get some upgrades.. wipe out the next skulk rush (with shottys now), get more upgrades... etc... etc... aliens would never get the kills they need to evolve anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--MrMojo+Sep 17 2003, 07:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Sep 17 2003, 07:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> About the official idea, btw :
What if marines just....camp out in their base? Shooting things from far away should be easy enough, they get a ton of upgrades, aliens can only rush and rush, not even being able to go gorge. The "you stole my kill" on this mode would be horrible, considering the kills determain the upgrades you get. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, and how would they get ammo? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Nah-evermind. They get ammo and health through the upgrade menu. Duh.
Comments
It could probably just be summed up by saying, give being a Marine a little more variety.
As for how much similarity NS:C will have to CS, we will see.
Besides, this is just a bad idea in general.
I like it as it is. No matter how much more 'balancing' is done, some players will be satisfied others will crave huge changes.
In any event, good work. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
It could probably just be summed up by saying, give being a Marine a little more variety.
As for how much similarity NS:C will have to CS, we will see. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
in such a game as NS: C buying a medpack or ammo would be good. other upgrades such as TSA standard weapons/armour getting upgraded for one person along seems a little silly to me
This would be really useful for introducing new players to the game - they can learn how individual weapons function - before throwing in the RTS element.
Presuming these will be really short games (5 mins?), I would suggest throwing in one round of NS:C between every map change.
If a server is empty, it would automatically revert to NS:C, and only when it gains a certain number of players (6?) will it change back to regular NS.
NS:C could also be implemented as a 'Sudden Death' mode for wars - if the game results in a draw, the winner could be decided by a quick game of NS:C.
To keep some connection to the classic resouce system, I suggest that players gain 10 personal resources for each level they achieve. For alien evolutions, it would cost a certain amount of resources to evolve into a higher lifeform, depending on your current form. To evolve into an Onos (100 res) from a Lerk (30 res), for example, would require 70 resources. To revert back to a Fade (50 res), you would be "refunded" 50 resources. Changing between marine weapons could also work in this manner. In both cases, the change would not become active until you respawn. Other upgrades, such as Motion Tracking or purchasing a new level of Abilities would be permanent.
Finally, if the simple resource system is adopted, it should be possible for players to donate resources (in lots of 10) to one another. This could be done simply by pressing the +use key while facing another player, as it has no other real use in this mode (apart from activating buttons/switches).
Just some light suggestions, I really like the idea of NS:C as it currently stands. It will never match up to classic NS, however!
You are essentialy agreeing that this will divide the NS community into 2...
What i would like to see, is if this <b>must</b> happen, then please make it another mod...
And don't worry, people. It won't push out NS Vanilla -- Vanilla is far too good. If it weren't, it would have been replaced by CS, DoD and other similar games already.
Besides, I always go back to DoD for a game or two after a long, bad or exhausting game of NS -- just to relax. Now, I can relax with NS! Yey!
And there is the posibilities of honing your individual skills with different equipment/classes/upgrades. And the DM rambo people might stay in NS:C and away from NS Vanilla?
Just like WC3: Defense of the Ancients, Tower Defense and Hero Arena -- it will be a great addition to an already great game.
On the other hand, Original NS is still the standard game and should get the most attention imo.
Now for my 2pence on it...
Initially, I was horrified... it smacks of turning NS into NS:CS, and stands to kill the classic game as an influx of DMers start demanding more NS:Co servers, and the limited number of NS servers dwindles....
BUT
I can see flayra's logic. <b> NS is not an instantly accessible game. This is bad for NS </b> NS classic is difficult to get to grips with, and needs some method of easing DM/CS players into the intricacies of the classic game.
BUT
A CS style kills=better guns/upgrades plain TeamDM will not do this. it will only add to the rambo-itis already plaguing NS. for many people who come in through CS -> NS:Co -> NS, NS:Co will only reinforce their twitch-like tendancies, and will do nothing to aid them in playing NS except familiarising them with the weapons/evolutions present. it will do nothing for their teamplay. It will also do nothing to reduce the culture shock experienced once they try playing NS. NS:Co is too dissimilar from NS pure.
THUS
in my opinion, NS:Co should NOT be like a team DM, but should instead be similar to UT's Domination mode:
- Keep the upgrades for kills concept. - rewarding the team for playing well is good. (but should not be the sole concept). this will show that even in NS pure, good players will be given better stuff by the commander/have more res to upgrade themselves. Make the upgrade interface close to the right click context menu found in the main game. this will familiarise them with it in advance.
- Treat the res nodes as the domination points. so by holding more res nodes than the enemy, you score more points.
-Marines need 2 players present at a res node to claim it. once present, it is placed automatically, and they must build it (build time is only 2 seconds however, just like dev mode). this will encourage moving in groups.
further to this, by securing a res node, those marines gain kill points, to spend on upgrades (completing objectives is thus also rewarded)
-Aliens require a gorge to build res nodes (again, takes 2 seconds). gorge should be an easily available upgrade (say after only one or two kills) - alternatively, one player may be made gorge at start, randomly (may p*ss people off just like being the VP in as_ missions in Cs did). the gorge can build alone, but should have defence from other aliens if they want to win many nodes.
- an enemy res node must be destroyed before you can reclaim the res for your team, but res nodes on both sides have much less health (to keep the speed up)
- Games last a fixed amount of time, and the winning team is determined by the amount of res gathered (ie. points for holding nodes). this way, teamplay is still encouraged, and the kills4upgrades is simply a method to make your team more effective at doing the real objective, claiming res.
-This keeps the basics of NS (getting res, upgrading, teamwork) and provides a stepping stone from TDM/CS/DoD etc by way of introducing NS concepts into an already familiar (UT:Domination) setup.
<b>Edit</b> - also, players should NOT be able to choose which side they start on. by forcing random, it makes them have to get to grips with both sides of the NS coin. which can only be good. too many new players stay marine for months, because they are comfortable with point/shoot, and aliens seem dauntingly complex (and melee oriented. scary...) this will help players moving to NS Pure to be better over-all players, with some familiarity of both sides.
It's been said before, but Seraphy has said it best. NS: Co would be much better as "NS Lite" rather than another flat Team DM game. A game mode that does not encourage teamwork will fail as a method of properly introducing new players to NS.
This feels like a deathmatch style mode, having thought about this I feel I might like this. Would possibly give real meaning to "superskulk" ^_^.
After playing DMC I can honestly say that there is nothing wrong with a little mindless fun once in a while.
Another reason I now like it is the fact that the modee will be much less of a server hog -> possibly to the point where a server can be run as easily as a CS server. This is good in a way.
As for the NS:C possibly becoming more popular...well.. I don't know. Short of artificially limiting the NS:C game mode to encourage people to play the full mode, I am out of ideas.
There is always a certain group of people among the hard core fans who won't accept any kind of change or new features and are therefore impossible to please when developing a mod further. Often it's because the new features are either "selling out" or "catering for people we don't want here"
So I'm agreeing that this will divide the community into two - 95% of players and 5% of players.
There is always a certain group of people among the hard core fans who won't accept any kind of change or new features and are therefore impossible to please when developing a mod further. Often it's because the new features are either "selling out" or "catering for people we don't want here"
So I'm agreeing that this will divide the community into two - 95% of players and 5% of players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not opposed to changing NS, i much like change for <b>better</b>.
95% been the cs players, 5% been the people who have played for some time.
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Instead of double posting i would like to say that i think SeraphyGoodness' idea is very very good. it will work with a small amount of people, and will most likely be a higher speed game with less people. This also introduces people effectively into ns.
GL with it anyway.
Plus,you can have level-over-level gameplay!!FINALLY!!
I love the original NS, but sometimes there's a lot of fun to be had challenging skulks to knife fights or just shotgun rushing, and that's the kind of fun that will be captured here. I envision it as the thing that gets played when you have fifteen minutes and want to blow off some steam or are getting a little burnt out on regular NS (and yes, it does happen, hehe).
Also, maybe this will take some of the trash off of the regular servers (of course, it could always backfire into making everyone think they're the original Rambo, hehe). When I think about it, you'll always be able to get the dedicated NS players on the regular servers, and they're generally what makes for an exciting game.
Yeah, you're right. Its all about game style. I don't like the fact that half of this community likes to oppress certain game styles. Especially when NS is a essentially a derivative work of that type of style.
That's what I think of when I look at this. I think that whilst more people will be coming into the game, they're not the kind of people we really want. If someone wants to play NS, they're expecting something differant: an FPS/RTS hybrid that places emphasis on tactics, stratagy and teamwork. NS:C doesn't seem to be offering anything more than a shootup. Right now if we NS players want that, we just go play a few rounds of TFC or CS. NS has been so successful because it is so differant to everything else out there: why do we want to enter into an already saturated deathmatch market?
Yes, NS has a steep learning curve. That's not an uncommen occurance. First time I played Warcraft 3 online, I had my rump handed to me over and over again. Did I stop playing? No, because I like the game. Seriously, do we want people playing the game when their attitude is "Well I tried comming on my second game ever and lost miserably so this game should be made heaps simpler"? Losing teaches you valuable lessons about tactics and stratagy in the game. If people can't learn from their mistakes in NS, why should they be playing the game?
What is the overall goal here? If it's training people for vanilla NS then I must say there are better ways to do that, such as hazard courses, manuals or just plain simple experiance. Throwing people into a DM situation encourages exactly the kind of mindset that commanders and alien teams fight to eradicate. All I can see in this project is an attempt to get thousands more players to play the game. But why? As the front page asserts, NS has been downloaded over 1.5 million times and has over 25,000 players daily. That's not a small number. We are a big, popular mod. If Flayra made the game retail tommorow, I'd say it would be a success. But that's not my choice to make.
I'll see how this whole NS:C thing goes, but my first impression is not favorable. There, I've been honest in my feelings on the matter.
- Keep the upgrades for kills concept. - rewarding the team for playing well is good. (but should not be the sole concept). this will show that even in NS pure, good players will be given better stuff by the commander/have more res to upgrade themselves. Make the upgrade interface close to the right click context menu found in the main game. this will familiarise them with it in advance.
- Treat the res nodes as the domination points. so by holding more res nodes than the enemy, you score more points.
-Marines need 2 players present at a res node to claim it. once present, it is placed automatically, and they must build it (build time is only 2 seconds however, just like dev mode). this will encourage moving in groups.
further to this, by securing a res node, those marines gain kill points, to spend on upgrades (completing objectives is thus also rewarded)
-Aliens require a gorge to build res nodes (again, takes 2 seconds). gorge should be an easily available upgrade (say after only one or two kills) - alternatively, one player may be made gorge at start, randomly (may p*ss people off just like being the VP in as_ missions in Cs did). the gorge can build alone, but should have defence from other aliens if they want to win many nodes.
- an enemy res node must be destroyed before you can reclaim the res for your team, but res nodes on both sides have much less health (to keep the speed up)
- Games last a fixed amount of time, and the winning team is determined by the amount of res gathered (ie. points for holding nodes). this way, teamplay is still encouraged, and the kills4upgrades is simply a method to make your team more effective at doing the real objective, claiming res.
-This keeps the basics of NS (getting res, upgrading, teamwork) and provides a stepping stone from TDM/CS/DoD etc by way of introducing NS concepts into an already familiar (UT:Domination) setup.
<b>Edit</b> - also, players should NOT be able to choose which side they start on. by forcing random, it makes them have to get to grips with both sides of the NS coin. which can only be good. too many new players stay marine for months, because they are comfortable with point/shoot, and aliens seem dauntingly complex (and melee oriented. scary...) this will help players moving to NS Pure to be better over-all players, with some familiarity of both sides. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hooray@Seraphy's idea ! UT DOM + S&I = pwn !
What if marines just....camp out in their base? Shooting things from far away should be easy enough, they get a ton of upgrades, aliens can only rush and rush, not even being able to go gorge. The "you stole my kill" on this mode would be horrible, considering the kills determain the upgrades you get.
What if marines just....camp out in their base? Shooting things from far away should be easy enough, they get a ton of upgrades, aliens can only rush and rush, not even being able to go gorge. The "you stole my kill" on this mode would be horrible, considering the kills determain the upgrades you get. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats the main reason i posted my NS:Domination idea... it forces both sides to move out and expand, rather than turtling. cos turtled marines in defensive postions would be a pwn-all. wipe out the expected(and inevitable) skulk rush, get some upgrades.. wipe out the next skulk rush (with shottys now), get more upgrades... etc... etc... aliens would never get the kills they need to evolve anything.
What if marines just....camp out in their base? Shooting things from far away should be easy enough, they get a ton of upgrades, aliens can only rush and rush, not even being able to go gorge. The "you stole my kill" on this mode would be horrible, considering the kills determain the upgrades you get. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, and how would they get ammo? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Nah-evermind. They get ammo and health through the upgrade menu. Duh.