Why Do Soldiers Fight?
RyoOhki
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">A question for forumites in uniform</div> As some of you would know, I study modern military history at university. Now whilst I find it a highly stimulating topic to research, one thing always holds me back. I am not a soldier. I never have been. I very probably never will be. Thus, often when I am researching, I find it hard to understand soldiers. Princibaly, why they fight.
Military systems for centuries have emphasised stratagies such as the strict following of orders and nationalistic ideas. Many military systems place their recruits through rigerous training routines designed to "shape" an individual into what is considered a good soldier. But when one is on the battlefeild, surrounded by bullets, explosions, missiles and whatever other charming devices modern warfare can produce, surely one's instincts must be screaming for you to run as fast and as far away as possible. Thus how does a soldier overcome these instincts?
What does the soldier fight for on the battlefeild? Does he or she advance because they believe their cause is correct? Do they fight because they fear what will happen to them if they don't fight? Perhaps they fight because their friends or "mates" are with them. Many Australian and British troops in WWI and WWII would certainly answer yes to the last point. But is that still true today? Is "comradery" a driving force behind a soldiers' will to fight?
I'd love some answers to these questions. Non-serving forumites are of course welcome to respond and comment; I simply wish to also recieve some feedback from people within a military structure.
Military systems for centuries have emphasised stratagies such as the strict following of orders and nationalistic ideas. Many military systems place their recruits through rigerous training routines designed to "shape" an individual into what is considered a good soldier. But when one is on the battlefeild, surrounded by bullets, explosions, missiles and whatever other charming devices modern warfare can produce, surely one's instincts must be screaming for you to run as fast and as far away as possible. Thus how does a soldier overcome these instincts?
What does the soldier fight for on the battlefeild? Does he or she advance because they believe their cause is correct? Do they fight because they fear what will happen to them if they don't fight? Perhaps they fight because their friends or "mates" are with them. Many Australian and British troops in WWI and WWII would certainly answer yes to the last point. But is that still true today? Is "comradery" a driving force behind a soldiers' will to fight?
I'd love some answers to these questions. Non-serving forumites are of course welcome to respond and comment; I simply wish to also recieve some feedback from people within a military structure.
Comments
How does a soldier overcome the fear of battle? Training. Training. Training. Training, more training, and oh, did I mention training? Instructers beat the lessons into your thick skull, and it sticks. The ones who fail to get with the program....preform less than needed in battle. YES your instincts are SCREAMING the hell at you for you to get the heck out of dodge when being attacked. The training takes over. Its like a subconscious mind, it will do it for you, if you have been teached correctly.
Why does a soldier fight?
Well...I will always stick by the comment made by Solid Snake in MGS2, I think it sums my ideas up fairly well.
"Find something to you worth fighting for, and fight for it."
A soldier does this. I bet plenty of soldiers dont want thier country over run, occupied, under different rule...they think that the homeland is worth fighting and dieing for, because its something they like, and they fight. Comadery is not much in the regular Army these days, but in the Marines, Special Forces, and Airborn, it is a MUST. To fight and die for something one likes, he must trust his friend to the upmost level, beyond brothers, beyond comradery, its a very different plane of teamwork. My brother has told me he can spot a man in the dark who is on his own team, and tell me his rank, serial number, and full name just from his shadow.
I'm assuming you're not going to elaborate or provide any support for that? Right.
Anyway my take on it has always been that soldiers are people who can live outside of themselves and see a greater good, because it does take a certain drive to get through all that training and commit yourself fully to something that might get you killed. I would say they are people who believe in something and unlike most people who just talk about it *coughCWG*cough* they are willing to stand up and fight for it.
Also keep in mind Soldiers aren't just those in recognized armed forces, anyone who fights for a cause is a soldier be it in the Marines, or on a dusty street in Bahgdad.
I guess the most important point is that every individual has their own reasons, and some soldiers don't have much choice. Conscript armies still exist, along with some nations still having compulsory military service (Israel and others), so those soldiers have very little choice. There's also a sense of camaraderie in any military unit, a sense of brotherhood and a <i>we've been through worse before boys</i> mentality. The people I've met from more elite formations (British SAS, Marine Force Recon, Navy SEALs, Army SF/Green Berets) tend to welcome combat more than those in regular or reserve units, but there is still a reverence and respect for the danger involved no matter who it is. Some fight because they're scared to look like they're cowards, some crave glory, some do it because they feel it has to be done, and a hundred other reasons.
I'm assuming you're not going to elaborate or provide any support for that? Right.
Anyway my take on it has always been that soldiers are people who can live outside of themselves and see a greater good, because it does take a certain drive to get through all that training and commit yourself fully to something that might get you killed. I would say they are people who believe in something and unlike most people who just talk about it *coughCWG*cough* they are willing to stand up and fight for it.
Also keep in mind Soldiers aren't just those in recognized armed forces, anyone who fights for a cause is a soldier be it in the Marines, or on a dusty street in Bahgdad. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can if you like, I just assumed most of the people who would reply in this thread would've already known about it :/
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Could you explain this a bit more, I can't tell if its ignorant babble or a flame <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
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Could you explain this a bit more, I can't tell if its ignorant babble or a flame <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh it's just a reaction to your one-line replies to just about every single point that comes up in discussion which are for the most part just leftist generalizations and usually never come with any kind of elaboration or support.
And as far as the actual comment goes, I'm assuming you have some kind of idealistic beliefs about how the world should be as we all do, you seem to be particularly vocal about yours but I can go out on a limb and say you've never voted, advocated, or fought for your cause.
Back on topic, soldiers fight for a lot of reasons.
One thing I'd like to point out though, is that soldiers just can't 'run' from battle... it's a god dhamn war, where are you going to go? Heh, you know the instincts of "Flight or Fight"? That's basically what every soldier must do.
Either he runs, or his training and logic takes hold of him. Logic says: "Where the **** are you going to run??" Training says: "You know your purpose, you know how you should respond, NOW DO IT!!!!"
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Could you explain this a bit more, I can't tell if its ignorant babble or a flame <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh it's just a reaction to your one-line replies to just about every single point that comes up in discussion which are for the most part just leftist generalizations and usually never come with any kind of elaboration or support.
And as far as the actual comment goes, I'm assuming you have some kind of idealistic beliefs about how the world should be as we all do, you seem to be particularly vocal about yours but I can go out on a limb and say you've never voted, advocated, or fought for your cause. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you know me so well exactly, your making lots of assumptions...AND WHY DOES EVERYONE ASSUME IM LEFT. I'm not anything, I hate both the left and the right...so peddle your anti-americanism elsewhere. I question things, and to me that helps more than waving a flag and buying an suv.
Feel free to post descriptions of the many socialists rallies you've been to, or you could even post a story of firebombing a federal bank, other than that make more constructive posts in the future and you won't be flamed.
edit: the below post is good indication of why CWG shouldn't be posting in the "discussion" forums.
Feel free to post descriptions of the many socialists rallies you've been to, or you could even post a story of firebombing a federal bank, other than that make more constructive posts in the future and you won't be flamed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its always the negative everyone focuses on and Im not gonna set time aside to fleetfully explain something or describe something to someone who OBVIOUSLY dosen't give a rats arse either which way. Also whose to say that my entire persona I display here just isn't a game to hide me from the rest of you. You can't ever know who or what I am unless we were friends or whatever in RL.
Why do soldiers fight? That is the a good question Ryo. I am not a soldier, I never plan on being one but I can understand the reason why they fight. Some people feel a great allegiance to their homeland, and that allegiance leads them to want to defend it, even at the cost of their own life. That allegiance to the homeland is both a good and a bad thing. Sometimes the allegiance leads them to do crazy shiat and sometimes the allegiance inspires them to become greater, to rise and change the world.
The way i've seen it, Soldiers serve for the very same reason people serve in local government. Allegiance to the homeland and wanting to keep it free.
Most soldiers do not give a crap about politics. Some join as a "right of passage."
Some join simply because it is an easy job, and it pays.
Many join for adventure. To see the world.
Others, espicially those in units such as Green Berets, SEALs, Marine Recon, Rangers, 101st Airborne, SAS, SBS, KSK, Jaegerkorps, all join because they love their country. NOT their government. Their country. Their friends, their families, their loved ones. I'm joining for the same reason I did before the 9/11 attacks even. I never want to see any harm come to my friends. I will never let my friends be hurt. I will give my life before any of them are harmed. Calling soldiers "brainwashed" is ignorant at best. Many enlisted and future enlisted do not agree with the government. But guess what. They do not care.
During all the political mudslinging of the months before war in Iraq, many people had many things on their minds reguarding this. Most soldiers only had one thing on their mind. Do we have a job to do or not. They do not wish to get involved with who's right or wrong, they just wanna know do the need to prepare, do they need to tell their wife and kids they have a job to do or not, do they need to tell their parents they are going off to fight. That is all soldiers want to know.
And do you THINK soldiers delight in harming another human being? No. It's just part of the job.
"Pray for Peace, Prepare for War"
Q: Why do you fight?
A: I fight for the guy next to me
Q: Why are you there?
A: It's my job
Q: Why did you join the military?
A: To get money for coll...err... to defend my country. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Most soldiers do not give a crap about politics. Some join as a "right of passage."
Some join simply because it is an easy job, and it pays.
Many join for adventure. To see the world.
Others, espicially those in units such as Green Berets, SEALs, Marine Recon, Rangers, 101st Airborne, SAS, SBS, KSK, Jaegerkorps, all join because they love their country. NOT their government. Their country. Their friends, their families, their loved ones. I'm joining for the same reason I did before the 9/11 attacks even. I never want to see any harm come to my friends. I will never let my friends be hurt. I will give my life before any of them are harmed. Calling soldiers "brainwashed" is ignorant at best. Many enlisted and future enlisted do not agree with the government. But guess what. They do not care.
During all the political mudslinging of the months before war in Iraq, many people had many things on their minds reguarding this. Most soldiers only had one thing on their mind. Do we have a job to do or not. They do not wish to get involved with who's right or wrong, they just wanna know do the need to prepare, do they need to tell their wife and kids they have a job to do or not, do they need to tell their parents they are going off to fight. That is all soldiers want to know.
And do you THINK soldiers delight in harming another human being? No. It's just part of the job.
"Pray for Peace, Prepare for War" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was gonna go in depth on my whole submission///dominance idea, but I'm not gonna bother explaining it when its gonna get shunned and called commie propoganda anyway.
Why would a soldier fight? Why would you kill someone you never met or never talked to? The simple answer is to say "It is your assignment." Well most of that goes out the window. You have one person shooting at you and the only way to stop him, is to shoot him. It comes down to self perservation. Sure you can argue the greater good or less of two evils, but once the bullets land a few inches from your head, you are fighting to stay alive.
War happens when two political parties cannot find a resolution. The throw their armies into a common area. Each one knows the other side will be trying to kill/capture them. If they don't understand that, they die -- plan and simple. Recruits go through enough live fire training to know how to act. If they freeze they are useless and most likely dead.
Why would a soldier fight? He fights to live and let other live.
dh
Touching on Kheras said, the reason you don't run is because there's a strong relationship between you and the soldier next to you, sure it's can be hard to rationalize love (Used in the Philo sense, brotherly love).
There is a strong bond between you and your partners, you would risk your life, and in many cases go out on a limb to redeem them from the edges of despair. You may apply it to your own life, with your own friends, but these guys continually live and fight together, there must be an unimaginable relationship.
I think it sometimes has to do with an instinctual want to fight for 'what is precious to you and your familiy'. I think sometimes its because joe soldier would have otherwise spent his life flipping burgers because he either has no aspirations or no education. I think sometimes the soldier might even just want to kill people (although this is gunna be a pretty rare one).
my point is (asssuming they are not conscripts), everyone has their own reason to fight, and while they may fall into general catagories, before they join up everyones reason is different.
after they join up, they fight to survive, regardless of ideologies they kill before they are killed, simple as really.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is a strong bond between you and your partners, you would risk your life, and in many cases go out on a limb to redeem them from the edges of despair. You may apply it to your own life, with your own friends, but these guys continually live and fight together, there must be an unimaginable relationship. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Couldn't have said it better myself. Your squadmates pretty much become second family
Why soldier fights? Because he is ordered to do it. Of course there are various reasons like:
-You don't know what else to do. You are trained to kill and that's what you are going to do
-Patriotism. You rather die than see your country being raided by the enemy(this doesn't work so well if you are the one attacking but then you are thinking about all the loot you are going to get if you win <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->)
However the most obvious reason, in a real military situation where 75% of all the man on the battle field will die, is that it's more likely that your own guys will shoot you than the enemy. Being a deserter is not fun, even if you'd manage to flee in some forest from your squad(or where-ever). No food and having to hide the rest of you life(if you are not dead or with other soldiers, you are a runaway. You get shot). Anyway, you get the point.
Though modern day wars are so lame that only few percent of the soldiers die and they are not even having hard time(compare WW1/2), so I wouldn't be surprised if a deserter would live after being caught by mp's.
Fighting for a cause you believe in, or fighting to defend your country are the poster reasons for why soldiers do what they do. Everyone acknowledges these, it should be quite easy to see why people would fight for these reasons. However -
How relevant are either of those to modern service? Correct me if i'm wonrg but, when you sign up to become a soldier for a western country in this day and age, you aren't signing on for a particular cause. It's always referred to as 'serving your country', but when it comes down to it, all you're really signing up for is to perform tasks handed to you by your government. You're signing on to serve your government. Now, if you're in the middle of a war when you decide to sign up, and do so because you believe in the cause and want to fight for it, that's all well and good.
However, sign up at some random point and you do not know the exact cause you'll be fighting for, it is dictated to you. And in the modern west, you really aren't going ot be spending much time defending your own country. A few months down the line, and you end up in a situation like the war on iraq. Now, how the war on iraq can be classified as 'serving your country' i don't really know. Alright perhaps if you believed the whole WMD line, and were rather imaginative, but i'm not going to go there. As a soldier you're now expected to fight in iraq, and (remembering i don't have military experience) i'd guess that refusing would be a dishonourable discharge right?
Now, assuming you signed on prior to this war, and you don't have a strong emotional investment in the cause behind the war, what would be your reason for fighting? You can take the "Only business" line, and just do it because it is your assignment, but then you can't really claim to be fighting for something you believe in. This isnt serving your country, it is quite clearly a case of serving your government. Of course, should you refuse to perform a task asked of you by your government, it will probably be said that you are letting down your country :)
Funny how these things work.
Thoughts?
US soldiers get no loot. They get paid on a salary.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However the most obvious reason, in a real military situation where 75% of all the man on the battle field will die, is that it's more likely that your own guys will shoot you than the enemy. Being a deserter is not fun, even if you'd manage to flee in some forest from your squad(or where-ever). No food and having to hide the rest of you life(if you are not dead or with other soldiers, you are a runaway. You get shot). Anyway, you get the point<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats where disipline comes in.
That is why saddams army fled, and we did not even when the situation means death if you didn't-
And I resent the fact that you seem to think that the engagements we are getting into now are not "real military situations"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Though modern day wars are so lame that only few percent of the soldiers die and they are not even having hard time(compare WW1/2), so I wouldn't be surprised if a deserter would live after being caught by mp's. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You honestly think that? You think after vietnam, the entire world decided to go ahead and tone down wars, just unanimously? No; the REASON that only a few percent of the soldiers died is because we've incorporated the lessons learned from EVERY SINGLE CONFLICT we've been in where a huge percentage have died. It pisses me off to think that you honestly believe that our soldiers are "not having a hard time" and that "wars are lame now".
I could easily list hardships they're going through that you probably haven't even thought about. Many are having a very difficult time, but you don't hear about it because they don't whine about it.
War wasn't pretty then, it's not pretty now. You just THINK it is because of the media, the reletively low loss of life, and your lack of understanding.
I suggest you do a bit of research before you say such things.
I'm going to go ahead and stop here before I say something that'll get me in trouble with the admins <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually I'd disagree with that. The reason US casualties have been so low post-Vietnam is that the US hasn't taken on anything that comes close to the US in terms of military power. Now if there was, say, a China-US or Russia-US war in 10 or 20 years, I think we'd see bulk US casualties. If either of those two conflicts were to occur now there would still be large scale US casualties.
Army to army, casualties are so low because we've adapted our warfare after learning the lessons from previous large scale wars (and our technology made it possible to take this even further)
Guerillas to Army, we're in trouble.
We (coalition) fought the 4th largest army in 1991, and even though many ran, many still put up a fight.
We (US/brits) fought the remnants of this army in 2003, and they broke and ran largely without a fight. But now civilians are nailing us with RPG's in ambush tactics and car bombs. Something we have only recently (vietnam war and later) experienced on such a scale and we need to adapt to it, although it's difficult
I think it sometimes has to do with an instinctual want to fight for 'what is precious to you and your familiy'. I think sometimes its because joe soldier would have otherwise spent his life flipping burgers because he either has no aspirations or no education. I think sometimes the soldier might even just want to kill people (although this is gunna be a pretty rare one).
my point is (asssuming they are not conscripts), everyone has their own reason to fight, and while they may fall into general catagories, before they join up everyones reason is different.
after they join up, they fight to survive, regardless of ideologies they kill before they are killed, simple as really. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not gonna happen, maybe in a pm however.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->US soldiers get no loot. They get paid on a salary.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who's talking about US soldiers? You? Not me at least. I'm talking about a FULL SCALE war. I'm talking about millions vs. millions and thousands of men dying every single day. In that kind of situation you don't give a rats arse about your superiors or orders...mainly because your superioirs don't care a rats arse about regulations either. When you don't know if you are going to die now or the next day, you will loot and many will rape and break the law. War is not pretty. Even the most organized armies looted and raided in WW2. WW3 is not going to be much different.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thats where disipline comes in.
That is why saddams army fled, and we did not even when the situation means death if you didn't-<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disipline goes only so far. People want to live. When you have to choose between living and breaking orders, you run or surrender. That's what all people(all races, all religions and all countries) have done through all the ages and that's what they are going to do. Heroism is just a fairy tale. It's nothing compared to humans other instincts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You honestly think that? You think after vietnam, the entire world decided to go ahead and tone down wars, just unanimously? No; the REASON that only a few percent of the soldiers died is because we've incorporated the lessons learned from EVERY SINGLE CONFLICT we've been in where a huge percentage have died. It pisses me off to think that you honestly believe that our soldiers are "not having a hard time" and that "wars are lame now".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said that half-jokingly but yes, it's true. Modern day wars, especially between huge mega-countries with 1000000 billion-kazillion military budget and pee-poor countries with army of peasants, are nothing compared to WW1/WW2. Somehow I believe that I know more about wars that you do. I'm not sure about your knowledge but if you seriously think that US soldiers are doing hard time in Iraq when compared to earlier wars, you are mistaken. Badly, I might add.