Bad Design Is Bad Design

Anonymous_CowardAnonymous_Coward Join Date: 2003-08-15 Member: 19768Members
edited September 2003 in Mapping Forum
Taken from Mapping Guidelines:

<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Create Alien Only Paths - The basic layout should include areas where the aliens can take alternate paths not accessible to marines. Try to make areas that accommodate and promote the various alien movement types (wall-running, gliding, flying, leaping, and blinking) and reward skilled alien players with routes that are difficult but not impossible to take by using these methods. Ventilation shafts, electrical tunnels, and power conduits should allow aliens to ambush and flank vulnerable marines. These alien only routes should connect the alien hive rooms with each other and allow aliens to travel between adjacent web branches. They shouldn't be overdone; the marines must be able to understand which openings should be watched or blocked off if they want to fortify an area. There can be occasional hidden openings, but most entrances and exits from alien paths should be obvious--gratings, still fans, holes, and access tunnels. The aliens should be encouraged to use areas accessible to marines about half the time. Making tunnels more difficult to access or longer than the regular hallways can help to encourage this behavior. There should also be shortcuts through the map available to marines with jetpacks that have advantages over normal routes, rewarding the commander for research on jetpack technology.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

How in heaven or hell did ns_eclipse pass this requirement. There is a total of *ONE* vent that honestly allows aliens to move from one point of the map to another more quickly, which is also shut-able by welding. Any other vents that would allow quicker access is countered by some sections where you move vertically for 1/3rd of the time. Additionally, only one vent has an obstructed view of their exits to allow for ambushing. Though South Loop is a vital area, its design certainly seems to favor marines anyway.

I think the only reason it became popular was because this same exact 'feature' allowed for more marine wins. This is a perfect example of what *not* to do with regards to marine vs alien design in future maps.

Edit: Does this belong in the General forum? I see now that the faq states that this forum is reserved more for questions about maps in development than anything else.

Comments

  • OlmyOlmy Join Date: 2003-05-08 Member: 16142Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Developer, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond
    I think that the vents could do with a little cleaning up, but i wouldn't say that they are all useless. (Yes i know you didn't directly say this but it was the feeling that came across)
  • TequilaTequila Join Date: 2003-08-13 Member: 19660Members
    I'd say South Loop favours Aliens more actually, as it has some top quality hiding places nestled snugly into the ceiling and is such a small area for marines to have to fight in.
  • Anonymous_CowardAnonymous_Coward Join Date: 2003-08-15 Member: 19768Members
    Well the problem with South Loop is more of its relation to hives and how far back the marines can stand from the entrances and still maintain a clear field of view. The north exit leads to a big hallway that leads directly into a hive. The west exit leads to a moderately sized hallway and also leads pretty much directly into a hive. There are no vents that allow any real marine ambush when they move between it and either Station Access or Horseshoe. Its curved nature allows a TF to be placed virtually anywhere. And it is incredibly easy to kill any Skulk attackers that emerge from its vent. Those top quality hiding places are feasible to shoot around when you're at the proper angles. Not to mention the difficulty in getting to them from the hallways when under fire. There is a reason why most clans' strategy is to take Maintenance and South Loop first, take out Comp Core, and then move to the area between Triad and Eclipse. That area is second only to South Loop for chokepoint potential.

    Perhaps I'm just getting shut down versus clanners who practice on the map all day every day and am whining unneccesarily, but I don't really think that's all there is to it.
  • FamFam Diaper-Wearing Dog On A Ball Join Date: 2002-02-17 Member: 222Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    The mapping guidelines are a teeny bit out of date in places, especially those which refer to gameplay styles. It was all written before even the proper NS Playtesting started, even before release, so its a bit iffy in places. The best bet is to have one eye on the mapping guidelines, and another of the current official NS maps and what makes them fun to play. Design a map which you would enjoy playing as either team, and you'll be fine. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • DarkATiDarkATi Revelation 22:17 Join Date: 2003-06-20 Member: 17532Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I believe Eclipse became popular because it's a good map, plain and simple. I guess you took that from the Mapping Guidelines, but honestly, some things there aren't "requirements" so much as suggestions. I like eclipse and have never felt the need to enter even one vent there.

    Vents are important, but they aren't required IMO.

    ~ DarkATi
  • Anonymous_CowardAnonymous_Coward Join Date: 2003-08-15 Member: 19768Members
    But vents are what make Skulks Skulks. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->

    It is part of the balance between aliens and marines and that statement about never feeling the need to enter a vent? Blasphemy! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • AminalAminal Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10610Members, Constellation
    eclipse has some great vents that are useful in all kinds of ways - most people dont know the vent systems in eclipse as they are all very well integrated into the environment and look of the map.

    check out the vent in the CC hive - dc's in there if marines have taken it or siege from there if the aliens have it. The new vent from maint to Southloop... a great addition. yadda yadda yadda.

    I think that next to Bast, Eclipse has one of the best vent systems in the game.
  • Anonymous_CowardAnonymous_Coward Join Date: 2003-08-15 Member: 19768Members
    I know where all the vents are...

    CC hive vent has so much vertical movement that it kills its use to get between the exits faster and it's easy to shoot down Skulks emerging from either side of it. Same is true for the South Loop vent. The inevitable siege always kills those near-hive vent structures... In my opinion even a single ceiling opening to a vent, with an obstructed view, in one of the major chokepoints would really fix this map. But I'm going to stop complaining and join the marines there forever in the future. Having the exact same level of access to every free resource node and hive in the map for both sides just seems extremely odd to me for some reason.
  • MooseMoose Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16248Members
    Eclipse is by far my favorite map. Its intuitive layout and smallish size really work well IMO.

    Eclipse doesn’t need vents to effectively flank the enemy. The hallway interconnectivity achieves this quit well with out vents.

    NO Eclipse bashing people <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • HAMBoneHAMBone Probably the best Commander Join Date: 2003-04-02 Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    The vent from keyhole to horseshoe is a very important vent that strongly favors alien. The vent from eclipse to triad is a great vent. The vent from comp core to PSJ, which you can also take to station access, is a great vent that favors alien. The vent from maintenance to south loop greatly favors aliens. Simply put, you have no idea what you are talking about.
  • Anonymous_CowardAnonymous_Coward Join Date: 2003-08-15 Member: 19768Members
    All alternate routes to more easily and quickly taken hallways. But you know...whatever.
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    edited September 2003
    Personally I think eclipse has one of the BEST venting systems in any of the NS maps. I can't think of any other map where I use the vents more regularly than on eclipse.

    There's that one from eclipse command to triad that I always use as a fade, along with the other other one from eclipse command into that bit next to comp core. Those and a few others I haven't mentioned are great vents for mobility and getting around quicker, but those definately aren't the vents I love at all.

    My favourite eclipse vents (which are the majority of them) are the ones that feature wires etc hanging down so you can stand in their entrances watching marines go past before you launch out and strike. There are plenty more with just as many uses. The amount of times I've evolved to gorge and bilebombed either south loop or computer core from the vents up above is ridiculous. You can dig yourself in with DC's and nothing short of a grenade or jetpack (or siege if u DC in) will remove you before their base goes down.

    The beauty in the eclipse vents are their strategic and tactical uses. They aren't for moving around, they are for laying the perfect ambush on unwitting marines. Even the triad-eclipse vent is awesome for sneaking up on marine building that res node (seeing as they all assume that corner is "safe" and turn their backs).

    EDIT: By the way have you actually read that paragraph Anonymous Coward? Nowhere does it mention that vents are for getting aliens around quicker. It mentions shortcuts for JPs, but for ALIENS the vents are for AMBUSHING, which is EXACTLY what the eclipse vents do.
  • CageyCagey Ex-Unknown Worlds Programmer Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8829Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Anonymous Coward+Sep 26 2003, 04:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anonymous Coward @ Sep 26 2003, 04:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Taken from Mapping Guidelines:

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Create Alien Only Paths - The basic layout should include areas where the aliens can take alternate paths not accessible to marines. Try to make areas that accommodate and promote the various alien movement types (wall-running, gliding, flying, leaping, and blinking) and reward skilled alien players with routes that are difficult but not impossible to take by using these methods. Ventilation shafts, electrical tunnels, and power conduits should allow aliens to ambush and flank vulnerable marines. These alien only routes should connect the alien hive rooms with each other and allow aliens to travel between adjacent web branches. They shouldn't be overdone; the marines must be able to understand which openings should be watched or blocked off if they want to fortify an area. There can be occasional hidden openings, but most entrances and exits from alien paths should be obvious--gratings, still fans, holes, and access tunnels. The aliens should be encouraged to use areas accessible to marines about half the time. <b>Making tunnels more difficult to access or longer than the regular hallways can help to encourage this behavior.</b> There should also be shortcuts through the map available to marines with jetpacks that have advantages over normal routes, rewarding the commander for research on jetpack technology.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    How in heaven or hell did ns_eclipse pass this requirement. <b>There is a total of *ONE* vent that honestly allows aliens to move from one point of the map to another more quickly, which is also shut-able by welding. Any other vents that would allow quicker access is countered by some sections where you move vertically for 1/3rd of the time.</b> Additionally, only one vent has an obstructed view of their exits to allow for ambushing. Though South Loop is a vital area, its design certainly seems to favor marines anyway.

    I think the only reason it became popular was because this same exact 'feature' allowed for more marine wins. This is a perfect example of what *not* to do with regards to marine vs alien design in future maps.

    Edit: Does this belong in the General forum? I see now that the faq states that this forum is reserved more for questions about maps in development than anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Reading comprehension is important (added emphasis mine)... The guide doesn't say that vents should be superior routes to hallways in terms of speed; it does say the convienence of the alternate alien-only route should be balanced by making regular hallways more attractive.

    If you still feel that vents should be designed to allow aliens faster movement than Marines, your personal opinion is fine; please don't project it on the official docs <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. It has certainly never been a requirement for official inclusion.
  • Anonymous_CowardAnonymous_Coward Join Date: 2003-08-15 Member: 19768Members
    Oh, I see. I just read all that text about "ambush and flank vulnerable marines" and assumed, sorry. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->

    It was just hardwired into my head that lack of speed was the main reason why marines are vulnerable and it sort of colored everything else I read.
  • HazeHaze O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
    Hmm *thinks of putting a huuuge bridge over a large, black gap in his map that only aliens that can fly, leap, jump, etc can get accross*
  • KungFuSquirrelKungFuSquirrel Basher of Muttons Join Date: 2002-01-26 Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    They work exactly as designed... people love the map... And it's a perfect example of how <i>not</i> to do things?

    Wow, thanks.
  • Anonymous_CowardAnonymous_Coward Join Date: 2003-08-15 Member: 19768Members
    edited September 2003
    Hey, sorry, *sorry*.

    It's just that every other map I've seen had passageways that really do help speed movement between vital locations for aliens/JPers to a large extent. And I thought that this was an extremely vital concept in marine vs alien balance. This turns out to not be the case and I was wrong. I take back what I said about eclipse. If it was your map then I'm doubly sorry.
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    Yeah it is his map.

    Sure his vents don't work like the vents in the other NS maps... His map also happens to be my favourite NS map... Coincedence? I think not....
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