Ns_havoc update

NiM_Studios · August 2002

Hello everybody,
we (NiM Studios (former Team Havoc)) are here to post an update on ns_havoc.
If you click the link below, you should see our concept lay-out for ns_havoc.
If some things may seem a little unclear, then don't hestitate to ask.
Again, I want you to post comments, ie. tell us what we could do better, what's good and should stay etc.
We'd appreciate your cooperation, goodbye for now.

Here's the link:
<a href="http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/j.vanamstel/concepttop.jpg" target="_blank">http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/j.vanamstel/concepttop.jpg</a>

Gwahir · August 2002

my only objection is that the marines seem to have been given minimal expansion. Sure they have a huge cargo bay but the aliens have lots of little (and very defendable) rooms.
And where is the command console btw?

ChromeAngel · August 2002

Both entrances to the cargo bay 1 are in the same wall, making it easily defendable by thr marine team, prehaps a little too easy. Both exits leat to the same area, making that a bottleneck where the alien can easily ambush the marines or lay siege to their base, starting them of resources.

The engine room only has once entrance and exit, this makes it very easy for the marine to attack and fortify it once it has been overrun. This is doubley bad as it is also close to the marine start, a marine 'rush' at the start of the game could prevent the aliens ever getting 3 hives.

The lockers hive also has a single entrance, however the additional connectivity between it and the octagonal corridor may save it from some of the drawbacks, listed above.

All the entrances to the cargo bay 2 are also the same area, making it easily defendable. However having exits to seperate location allows the defenders to outflank an attacking force.

Will you be adding vents or similar routes?

Why the staff bedrooms? I hope their will be another way out of there.

TinMan · August 2002

The way from the hive at the engine room to dockbay1 seems a little short and quite straight. there shoud be some obstacles to block a rush and to help the marines to defend their place.

NiM_Studios · August 2002

I'd like to thank you guys for your constructive comments. You're all right, the connectivity isn't all that good, so we'll be working on that. Also it might seem that the hallways seem very easy to walk through, but we're planning to put in some debris, little blockades etc.
We're also brainstorming for some more rooms to add, that way the map and the connectivity should be more complex.

Thanks again for the well directed comments, you'll be hearing from us.

Legionnaired · August 2002

Also, that main ring seems to be a main zone of traffic, and something that the Marines would utilize a lot, pretty much with impunity from alien attack.

My suggestion would be to add small rooms off to the side, maybe crew quarters or something, (that way they could all be more or less identical) along the ring, so the aliens have a chance at ambush.

But then again, ive never played the game, so i dunno.

NiM_Studios · August 2002

Thank you Legionnaired,
we've made some changes already, and the main ring has some more rooms attached to it, which are attached to other rooms, so you'll always have atleast two entrances/ exits.
I'll post up another pic when I think it's worth showing.

Jacq · August 2002

Don´t forget vents for bobs <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> , I will add a little more small rooms or corridors in the middle of the ring, for connect it in the other direction. Which program use to make the layout?
Keep working

NiM_Studios · August 2002

Thank you for your comment Jacq. We were aware of the vents for the Bobs, but we'll add them as soon as we finished the final layout.
And now on to your question, we use Valve's Hammer Editor to create the lay-out, we think it's more usefull than Photoshop or MS Paint, because it gives us an indication of the size and the heights, and it's very easy to create a lay-out with it.

Jacq · August 2002

2 questions:
Who are you?, web?, maps?
Do you find usefull a 2D-level editor?

NiM_Studios · August 2002

<b>Who are you? Web? Maps?</b>
I'm sorry, I don't want to tell you guys just yet. I don't want any of you to have pre-judegements, so yes, I've been here before. And NiM Studios is actually a team, so I (the poster) don't do the mapping myself.

<b>Do you find usefull a 2D editor?</b>
I'm not sure if I understand your question, are you asking if I could use a 2D editor? As in mapping?

pielemuis · August 2002

he made a layout editor and is wondering if you would be interested ( i guess ) you can find it <a href="http://www.natural-selection.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=4;t=4972" target="_blank">here</a>

NiM_Studios · August 2002

Hey that's awesome!
I'm consedering using it, but right now Valve's Hammer Editor works fine with me.
Keep up the good job Jacq!

Jacq · August 2002

hhehe interfector knows it, i think it wasn´t to famous. But know i have started to study for exams so the work will be slow. I´m considering change the actual design and work in a 2D-layout editor very similar to hammer so you guys haven´t to learn new UI, and newbie mappers could start in 2D with map editing.

Battousaix · August 2002

ur team_havoc nim <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>
looks good, but evrybody sayd all the good and bad points of it, now i just can say, keep it up,and keep the good stuff coming

XyberBob · August 2002

Looking quite nice, just fix everything that everyone has said and im sure it will be excellent map

NiM_Studios · August 2002

Hello again,
we've updated the layout, and we had a pretty good feeling about it. That's why we're showing it to you guys now.
As you can see we've added some extra rooms and hallways to make the map more complex, and every room now has at least two exits (except the Security & Control room, the Lockers and the Restrooms).
As you might've noticed, the lay-put doesn't include any alien vents, or resource nodes. That is because we're going to add them when the lay-out is final, and when most of the map is finished.

I'd also like to add that we're really making progress, not only on the concepts, but on the actual map too.
You may expect screenshots of some areas I'm working on any day, but I can't promise you anything just yet.

As usual, I want you guys to find out what we could improve to make it work out better, and what is good.
We appreciate your cooperation!

Here's the link to the lay-out:
<a href="http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/j.vanamstel/concepttop.jpg" target="_blank">http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/j.vanamstel/concepttop.jpg</a>

sharpsword6 · August 2002

Its not half bad but some things can be chanaged by making some things bigger since they probaly will be. The upgraded one is much better not by that much.

ChromeAngel · August 2002

The engine room hive is only one room away from the marine spawn point <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('>

I have a bad feeling about the railway linking the marine warehouse the alien warehouse <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('> Railways tend to get completely owned by one side ot the other.

The connectivity seems much improved and you appear to have taken the advice about using multiple entrances to the spawn rooms.

Some improvements could be made by adding more branching and combineing routes. Bear in mind the run-time from hive to marien start should be roughly equal for all hives.

coil · August 2002

The engine room hive does seem a little close. I would suggest relocating the hive to the bend between the engine hive and mainframe - perhaps you could create a "tram stop" or similar area in which to place it?

Also, while I'm talking about the tram... a corridor that long could mean some icky r_speeds, and I'm not sure how useful an avenue it would be. Perhaps you could wreck part of it and make it impassable? My personal opinion would be (if you put the "tram station" hive in) to make the tunnel debris-filled but passable from the Marine Start to the Tram Station hive, but then completely caved in between the two hives (perhaps an alien-only passage through that area).

The two entrances (not including the tram) to the south hive are very close together; perhaps you could move the one from sickbay further down the east wall.

r_speeds might be a problem in that long N-S corridor down the center of the map; will you have height changes to serve as visblocks?

Lastly - how's resource node placement going to work? It can be pretty pivotal; keep in mind that a resource node can be a great way to get people to go into a room they'd otherwise pass by (e.g. dining/kitchen). Maintenance might be a fun place to stick a double-node. (:

This looks really promising! I'd like to see resource nodes and alien vents. (:

Merkaba · August 2002

It does look promising, I'm loving the resemblence to a real ship. (Engine at the back, maintenance in the centre, living quarters at the front.)

Best of luck to you!

NiM_Studios · August 2002

Thank you all for the accurate comments and possibility's to improve the lay-out. I will now continue working on the lay-out with your comments in my head (and on paper). I'll post a screenshot again as soon as I think it's worth it.

And coil, about the resource nodes placement, I had the same thing in mind, but I haven't thought of placing a double node, I'll keep it in mind, thank you!

dragonsblade · August 2002

i think this map will be fun to play <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

NiM_Studios · August 2002

Thank you dragonsblade.
I've improved the lay-out already, and added some minor things.
You know the drill.

Here's the link:
<a href="http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/j.vanamstel/concepttop.jpg" target="_blank">http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/j.vanamstel/concepttop.jpg</a>

ChromeAngel · August 2002

The engine room still looks too close to the marine start.

If the aliens start in the engine room they will rush the the marine start, uneless the marines are very good they will be quickly overwhelmed.

If the aliens don't start in the engine room the marines will rush in there and capture it early on, this will prevent the aliens ever building 3 hives (and getting all the goodies the hive 3 brings)

The hive in cargo bay 3 seems much more difficult to get at then the other 2, maybe this should be balanced out better.

NiM_Studios · August 2002

Ok, I've been moving around a bit again. I think the engine room is at quite some distance now, but it might be a little to close to the dropzone hive.
Please give me your opinion again.

The link is different now, since I didn't add any text to it:
<a href="http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/j.vanamstel/losimple.jpg" target="_blank">http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/j.vanamstel/losimple.jpg</a>

coil · August 2002

I don't think the Engine hive is too close... if you stop and look at it, they're *all* about that far. Personally, it doesn't appear to me that it will be too far... it might be a tighter, faster map (like Hera), but that's not a bad thing. Nim, what you need to do is lay out a basic, playable floorplan - then, take the marine player in the NSTR2 and run from each of the hives to the marine start, and from each hive to the other two.

Running time between any two "base areas" should be 25-30 seconds, give or take. If you find it's significantly shorter than that, you've got two options. The first is to redesign with longer corridors - I don't think that's necessary. The second is to introduce elements that slow things down - elevators or slow-opening blast doors are very good at this. A lot of maps in the playtest use these elements.

ChromeAngel · August 2002

Close but i'd like to see it tweaked more like this. Oh and don't use the alien use the marine for timing (as per the guidelines), the better(IMHO) playtest maps are about 25-30 seconds for a marine.

Coil is giving very good advice about slow doors and lifts, they also add suspence as well as improving NS style gameflow.

NiM_Studios · August 2002

That looks very nice ChromeAngel, I added it in my lay-out and I must say I'm satisfied. Now, ofcourse, it doesn't depend on the likings of 2 or 3 people, I want to hear what you other guys think about it.

<img src="http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/j.vanamstel/losimple.jpg" border="0">

coil · August 2002

I would re-rotate the cargo bay hive to its previous orientation, to keep that lovely symmetry you had going there. However, I do like the hallway redesign.

Ns_havoc update

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