My biggest problem (and I believe it applies to all three maps) is the unclimbable railings. This is incredibly annoying for a skulk. It's okay, if you hit them at full speed, but I like to crawl around slowly sometimes. But if you go at an angle, you don't have the momentum to carry yourself up and over.
(I think it was these maps that had this problem... anyone confirm?)
All other points I can think of have already been mentioned.
Nothing, the red vent that leads from MS to a central corridor. One vertical section has been made into a func_ladder so even marines can access the vent, yet the intial drop-down closest to the MS has not, therefore if you go on a quick welding mission, the only way out is suicide <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
If ye place clip brushes over yer railings you cannot um.... enough of this pirate crap... can shoot through them, thats what has been done in eclipse, you cannot climb them as skulk however. NULL brushes are NOT shoot through and can block VIS if you do not leave small gaps, skulks can climb them. It does sort of make sense for a skulk not to be able to climb thin metal bars very well, but it is annoying.
I sometimes visit that glass dome in marine spawn on eclipse as a fade or skulk and it really looks bad to be able to see through the sky into the marine spawn and be able to see the stuff VIS thought you might be able to from that leaf. One fix might be to skulpt some rocks and stuff outside the dome preventing you from seeing into marine spawn from through the sky, but it must not disrupt the commander mode or noticably increase the r_speeds of those down on the ground. Some func_seethrough's on the sky might do it. It must also fit into the theme of the map(I never read back stories so I don't know if eclipse is a station or something).
I must say I find Veil sort of homogenous and plain. More cool junk or gimmicky(special) type rooms please <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->.
edit: brush based railings may work too if they are simple enough not to bugger up the r_speeds,(you can have them hovar one unit over the ground or be a func_wall so they don't cut up the ground, yes hovaring one unit above the ground is ugly but it looks better IMHO then a solid rendered func_wall that has 'flat' bars)
You probably need to fix the double node siege spot in marine spawn, but overall, I must say, I REALLY like Veil.
Absolutely wondeful how the double node is fought over in so many directions, east corridor, west coordior, gorges bilebombing through the vents at the top (thank god the exploit of bilebomb below is gone), and the two entrances, it really makes for a great battle point on the map.
Not much more I can offer at the moment because I soon need to get started on my homework.
I noticed I won't be the first person to comment on the railings, but yeah I'll throw my two cents in here. I have to agree with those comments. If the Skulk doesn't get a good run at the railings, then it can't get over them because it just keeps sliding off. It's quite annoying - especially when trying to sneak over the railings in marine spawn or sneak up behind marines above triad.
I think I read somewhere that the Skulk climbing code is going to be adjusted, so maybe you won't need this, but if you do (and haven't found it yet) instead of using a clip brush, use a func_seethrough brush with "alpha for players" at 1 and "alpha for commander" at 0. This will give you a transparent brush to both players and comm. Bullets pass through it without any trouble, and as an added bonus (or rather the whole point of this ?cludge?) Skulks can climb on it.
<!--QuoteBegin--ssjyoda+Sep 19 2003, 10:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ssjyoda @ Sep 19 2003, 10:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> leave the double node seige. Its very easy for aliens to hold down, only chance marines really has is the seige. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines can siege double res from east and west access, they don't need a "cheap" place to siege dres from.
Boy, Eclipse and Viel are my favorite maps. Handsdown I just love them, I can't really think of anything off the top of my head that I would want to improve on them right now, if I come up with anything I'll post it.
On Eclipse, just a small bug. In the eclipse hive, as you leave towards triad, sometimes the rails disappear, don't know if thats just something that can't be fixed or just not worth, but just thought I would point it out =)
<!--QuoteBegin--#Ha.Ze-+Sep 21 2003, 09:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (#Ha.Ze- @ Sep 21 2003, 09:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Buh. why not have a catwalk accross triad? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, I kind of think that sounds pretty kick ****. But why not make it like one that only marines with jetpacks, or aliens can reach, and make it close enough to siege? Seriously, I think that would be a kick **** idea....
Eclipse: Excellent map. Should be a mapping standard of excellent NS gameplay. My only qualm about this map is lack of weldables and an overall vent system. I can't really tell you how to change the map. Changing the map could be both a good and bad thing, so I have no comment.
Veil: My personal favorite map. However, all of the problems on this map stem from the from the monotor pods. What the hell are they for? I mean, what's the point of not welding them, when they are right at your base and close off a possible route for skulk rushes? What's the point of welding them when they can just be parasited open? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Also, if those vents could be welded, they should be welded from <b>outside</b> of the base, jeez.
As far as being able to siege the doulbe node from marine base, I think this is perfectly acceptable. It costs a lot of res to siege from base, and it's equivilent to a gorge going in the vent above double node and bilebombing it into oblivion. The double nodes should be really damn hard to hold by both teams due to it's worth.
Nothing: This is a trouble map. I think the cargo area is poorly designed, with potential for stalements on publics, it's also a double node, which makes no sense to me why one hive should be a double node as well as a hive... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Next, power silo is so easy to camp, it's just rediculous.
And ventialation is probably the best designed part of the map, however, it seems odd to me that while it's really difficult for marines to make it to the alien hive, once they do they can spawn camp till the cows come home. Why is most of the map alien based in the fact of it's sheer size (so skulks can basically hammer incoming marines) yet once the marines get to the hives themselves, can camp and lock them down with absolute ease?
For veil, you could try flipping the MS around, so that the high platform is nearest to double res, and the two pods with the vents would be further away (and their vents would go down and under the MS).
For the railings, have you tried building the top bar out of world brushes and the vertical bars out of func_illusionaries? It wouldn't use any extra entities seeing as you simply just making the current entities slightly smaller and replace part of them with world brushes... You'd then need to make sure that the clip brushes were flush with the bars at the top, so that the skulk wallclimb code would see the clip brush as merely a gap in a surface and would happily pass over it... In theory anyway...
<b>NS_VEIL</b> - The hive in the lower left has non-moving platform things on the floor, that if you evolve to a fade on, you will get stuck underneath. Clip it off!
Wish I had more comments, but I just don't have much time for playing recently.
I think all the maps are great. This may have already been posted here, good chance I missed it. But one bug(?) I did notice on ns_veil. While in pipeline hive, there is a small cube (around 16 x 16) that is invisible about 3 feet from the wall and about 3 feet off the ground at the bottom of the stairs. You can actually fall down from the ceiling and land on it. I have been tripped up on it a few times as fade and onos.
here are some pics of me sitting on the box: <img src='http://www33.brinkster.com/inertialsept/floatingcube.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'> <img src='http://www33.brinkster.com/inertialsept/floatingcubee.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
(edit: one more little thing, on ns_nothing, tone down the ambiences at the hives, especially power silo. I usually have my headphones cranked to hear the skulks moving around, and just about blow my eardrums out walking into the hive (this might have already been posted too :/ ))
Half the point of hive ambience is to mask alien noises, giving them a small home ground advantage. If the ambience was turned down to the point where you could still here the skulks running about clearly, they'd lose that advantage.
Cargo is fine imo, it's actually pretty hard for rines to keep it held for long against fully teched aliens, too many corners. Power silo is the hive of choice for stalemates, which could possibly be fixed with some venting that exited on one of the raised bits near the roof of the hive room.
Yeah, the ambience HAS been turned down in ns_nothing (as compared to 1.0x) and IMHO is too quiet! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
A suggestion for the two corridors that lead to Power Silo hive on ns_nothing.
Currently these corridors are VERY marine friendly. Seiging Power Silo is an absolute breeze with these corridors. A simple solution may be to simply scatter some crates or boxes throughout the tunnels, providing cover for approaching skulks ect.
I'd just like to say I love all those maps and I have written strategy guides to all of them.
What I do is start the map go marines then start the game with sv_cheats(I have this bound to a letter),then I walk through the whole map writing down every room/hall name as possible marine relocation spots.
What I am doing is working on a 360page marine relocation strategy guide.Don't know if I'll release it or not that's alot of pages lol.
Then I might also be working on a alien chamber placement strategy guide which may be 360 pages too.
I allready have the first 180pages of the marine strat guide done.
I'm doing this for every map I have and each map has about 4 or 5 pages to them.The extra pages would be for overviews showing where to like place turrets,armories,comchairs etc.
an example for ns_nothing:
Powersilo Base,Ominous Kismet Base,Miasma Walkway Base,Forboding AnteChamber Base and Painted Corridor base.
Oh yeah the only bad thing about ns_veil is the seiging double res from marine base but it's a challenge to the aliens I think to keep building there etc.
Veil : there is a trouble as an onos when you try to climb these last stairs to marine base (but outside the base, just before the first res node when coming from alien side) : the onos just can't climb it ; it is stopped there at bottom and it must kneel to bypass this point. Maybe a higher door or a little clip brush could solve the problem ? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
edit : i forgot this other one : the lift near pipeline hive is quite difficult to switch. Usually i die there as a gorge trying to escape.. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited October 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--amckern+Oct 28 2003, 07:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (amckern @ Oct 28 2003, 07:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just to let u know o0T0o that i all ready explaied about the ony stuck issue in Veil
amckern <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, so have about 30 other people. I'm used to hearing the same comments twice or more.
I finally have some time to get back to these and hopefully there's some time for mild adjustments in the very near future. I'll be sorting through here to see what I can manage, but don't expect too much.
Don't worry, Amckern. I just didn't get the clue to read the whole 5 comment pages. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
(I think it was these maps that had this problem... anyone confirm?)
All other points I can think of have already been mentioned.
I sometimes visit that glass dome in marine spawn on eclipse as a fade or skulk and it really looks bad to be able to see through the sky into the marine spawn and be able to see the stuff VIS thought you might be able to from that leaf. One fix might be to skulpt some rocks and stuff outside the dome preventing you from seeing into marine spawn from through the sky, but it must not disrupt the commander mode or noticably increase the r_speeds of those down on the ground. Some func_seethrough's on the sky might do it. It must also fit into the theme of the map(I never read back stories so I don't know if eclipse is a station or something).
I must say I find Veil sort of homogenous and plain. More cool junk or gimmicky(special) type rooms please <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->.
edit: brush based railings may work too if they are simple enough not to bugger up the r_speeds,(you can have them hovar one unit over the ground or be a func_wall so they don't cut up the ground, yes hovaring one unit above the ground is ugly but it looks better IMHO then a solid rendered func_wall that has 'flat' bars)
Absolutely wondeful how the double node is fought over in so many directions, east corridor, west coordior, gorges bilebombing through the vents at the top (thank god the exploit of bilebomb below is gone), and the two entrances, it really makes for a great battle point on the map.
Not much more I can offer at the moment because I soon need to get started on my homework.
I think I read somewhere that the Skulk climbing code is going to be adjusted, so maybe you won't need this, but if you do (and haven't found it yet) instead of using a clip brush, use a func_seethrough brush with "alpha for players" at 1 and "alpha for commander" at 0. This will give you a transparent brush to both players and comm. Bullets pass through it without any trouble, and as an added bonus (or rather the whole point of this ?cludge?) Skulks can climb on it.
(edit: spelling and stuff)
Marines can siege double res from east and west access, they don't need a "cheap" place to siege dres from.
<3
Actually, I kind of think that sounds pretty kick ****. But why not make it like one that only marines with jetpacks, or aliens can reach, and make it close enough to siege? Seriously, I think that would be a kick **** idea....
What does everyone think?
Veil: My personal favorite map. However, all of the problems on this map stem from the from the monotor pods. What the hell are they for? I mean, what's the point of not welding them, when they are right at your base and close off a possible route for skulk rushes? What's the point of welding them when they can just be parasited open? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Also, if those vents could be welded, they should be welded from <b>outside</b> of the base, jeez.
As far as being able to siege the doulbe node from marine base, I think this is perfectly acceptable. It costs a lot of res to siege from base, and it's equivilent to a gorge going in the vent above double node and bilebombing it into oblivion. The double nodes should be really damn hard to hold by both teams due to it's worth.
Nothing: This is a trouble map. I think the cargo area is poorly designed, with potential for stalements on publics, it's also a double node, which makes no sense to me why one hive should be a double node as well as a hive... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Next, power silo is so easy to camp, it's just rediculous.
And ventialation is probably the best designed part of the map, however, it seems odd to me that while it's really difficult for marines to make it to the alien hive, once they do they can spawn camp till the cows come home. Why is most of the map alien based in the fact of it's sheer size (so skulks can basically hammer incoming marines) yet once the marines get to the hives themselves, can camp and lock them down with absolute ease?
For veil, you could try flipping the MS around, so that the high platform is nearest to double res, and the two pods with the vents would be further away (and their vents would go down and under the MS).
For the railings, have you tried building the top bar out of world brushes and the vertical bars out of func_illusionaries? It wouldn't use any extra entities seeing as you simply just making the current entities slightly smaller and replace part of them with world brushes... You'd then need to make sure that the clip brushes were flush with the bars at the top, so that the skulk wallclimb code would see the clip brush as merely a gap in a surface and would happily pass over it... In theory anyway...
Wish I had more comments, but I just don't have much time for playing recently.
here are some pics of me sitting on the box:
<img src='http://www33.brinkster.com/inertialsept/floatingcube.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<img src='http://www33.brinkster.com/inertialsept/floatingcubee.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
(edit: one more little thing, on ns_nothing, tone down the ambiences at the hives, especially power silo. I usually have my headphones cranked to hear the skulks moving around, and just about blow my eardrums out walking into the hive (this might have already been posted too :/ ))
Other than those, awesome maps.
Cargo is fine imo, it's actually pretty hard for rines to keep it held for long against fully teched aliens, too many corners. Power silo is the hive of choice for stalemates, which could possibly be fixed with some venting that exited on one of the raised bits near the roof of the hive room.
Currently these corridors are VERY marine friendly. Seiging Power Silo is an absolute breeze with these corridors. A simple solution may be to simply scatter some crates or boxes throughout the tunnels, providing cover for approaching skulks ect.
I'd just like to say I love all those maps and I have written strategy guides to all of them.
What I do is start the map go marines then start the game with sv_cheats(I have this bound to a letter),then I walk through the whole map writing down every room/hall name as possible marine relocation spots.
What I am doing is working on a 360page marine relocation strategy guide.Don't know if I'll release it or not that's alot of pages lol.
Then I might also be working on a alien chamber placement strategy guide which may be 360 pages too.
I allready have the first 180pages of the marine strat guide done.
I'm doing this for every map I have and each map has about 4 or 5 pages to them.The extra pages would be for overviews showing where to like place turrets,armories,comchairs etc.
an example for ns_nothing:
Powersilo Base,Ominous Kismet Base,Miasma Walkway Base,Forboding AnteChamber Base and Painted Corridor base.
Oh yeah the only bad thing about ns_veil is the seiging double res from marine base but it's a challenge to the aliens I think to keep building there etc.
Veil : there is a trouble as an onos when you try to climb these last stairs to marine base (but outside the base, just before the first res node when coming from alien side) : the onos just can't climb it ; it is stopped there at bottom and it must kneel to bypass this point. Maybe a higher door or a little clip brush could solve the problem ? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
edit : i forgot this other one : the lift near pipeline hive is quite difficult to switch. Usually i die there as a gorge trying to escape.. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
amckern
amckern <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, so have about 30 other people. I'm used to hearing the same comments twice or more.
I finally have some time to get back to these and hopefully there's some time for mild adjustments in the very near future. I'll be sorting through here to see what I can manage, but don't expect too much.
Thanks for all the feedback.