So, what's your solution then, if not ringers? (which is not as devastating to the league as you make it out to be) Another option is to increase the players per team to 10-12, but like you said the more you increase that number there's a higher likelyhood of players not being able to play. Even at 10-12, there's still a good chance that not enough players will attend. Depending on how many players actually sign up for this, it could be an even worse situation. If not enough players attend, you'd have to either need to allow ringers or disqualify the team. Which do you prefer? Perhaps, like picking your team leaders, you could have a set pool of volunteer ringers that are fair.
Forgive me if I'm overstepping my bounds. I'm not trying to pester you.
Psuedo, how much competetive play experience do you have? I'm not trying to make assumptions here, but there's a lot of things wrong with your argument. I've seen clan games "stacked" merely by the presence of one or two "elite" players on one team. Ringing can stack teams seriously, and there's the possiblity that a team with proper connections could always get the best NS players to ring for them while a less prestigious team will be stuck with whatever they can get from the leftovers. That just wouldn't be fair.
PS soberena, is there a point to your post besides post count++?
I'll repeat: "Perhaps, like picking your team leaders, you could have a set pool of volunteer ringers that are fair." Does that not solve your dilemma?
Could you point out the "things" wrong with my "argument"?
I have no NS competitive play experience. Only that of other games. (and my name is PseudoKnight, not Psuedo. Call me PK for short. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Are you looking to create perfectly balanced teams or are you letting the best team win in objective competitive play? Team stacking can happen without ringers.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 9 2003, 10:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 9 2003, 10:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Either you allow ringers, which would defeat the purpose of a team, or you don't allow ringers, the right thing to do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I gotta agree with this.
I see no system that makes any sense that lets ringers in.
Only thing to keep in mind is that you should let teams merge that don't have enough active players. In a way that would kinda be like ringing, but I think it is neccessary.
As for later comments remeber the idea is 8 per team, then if less then 8 show up the other team has to not play all thier people (equal number).
<!--QuoteBegin--PseudoKnight+Oct 10 2003, 06:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Oct 10 2003, 06:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'll repeat: "Perhaps, like picking your team leaders, you could have a set pool of volunteer ringers that are fair." Does that not solve your dilemma?
Could you point out the "things" wrong with my "argument"?
I have no NS competitive play experience. Only that of other games. (and my name is PseudoKnight, not Psuedo. Call me PK for short. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Are you looking to create perfectly balanced teams or are you letting the best team win in objective competitive play? Team stacking can happen without ringers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And who will be in the set pool of ringers? Clanners who are good? Or complete nubs?
If they are complete nubs, then no one will want to use them, and if they are 'elite' then everyone will want them over their own team members.
No matter what, it can't work. As long as the 'pool' of ringers has at least <b>one</b> player in it that would be better than people normally on the team, then it would advantageous to use the ringer and therefore some unlawful things will happen to get the ringer on.
I am looking to create somewhat balanced teams (perfect balance is literally impossible, we aren't talking numbers here... we are talking human beings!) where the best team wins. This should create a fun enviroment. I am hoping that because teams will have a varied base of skill, what will happen is that teams that don't look to win will end up winning, with lots of upsets.
With team picking being done the way we are doing it, don't expect 100% fairness, that's pretty impossible. We can't be expected to know who is good and who just sucks, the point is with drafting, you don't know who is going to be on your team or not. If you sign up, that pretty much shows that you have the time to spend playing in the matches, so I'm not expecting too many absences, that would kind of defeat the idea of NS draft.
We aren't looking to create perfectly balanced teams, if we were, we (the other leaders and I) would be doing this some other way, the point is to let you know how this organized play thing works.
PK, do you want to be a part of it or not? I know you are trying to help, and thanks, but I do believe we have more than a clue to what we are doing <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> but by all means, keep it coming.
<!--QuoteBegin--Last.+Oct 10 2003, 12:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Last. @ Oct 10 2003, 12:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> PS soberena, is there a point to your post besides post count++? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes
Ultimately it's up to you whether you have ringers in or not, but I find your reasons to be slightly hypocritical. You say that there can't be a fair pool of ringers ala my suggestion, but at the same time you're doing the same picking process with team leaders. You're putting teams together based on a draft system (not comradery based), but at the same time you think ringers would destroy the team concept. It's not uncommon to outsource talent and in a way picking from a draft system is alot like picking ringers. It's up to you, but I wouldn't want you to make that decision based on weak arguments.
Is there some stigma attached to "ringers" that I'm unaware of?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We aren't looking to create perfectly balanced teams, if we were, we (the other leaders and I) would be doing this some other way, the point is to let you know how this organized play thing works.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And yet one of the arguments against ringers is that they would imbalance the teams. (which I've shown isn't true anyway) You can't show them how organized play works when they have to forfeit due to lack of players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->PK, do you want to be a part of it or not? I know you are trying to help, and thanks, but I do believe we have more than a clue to what we are doing but by all means, keep it coming.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->If I felt confident that I could invest the time, I would love to participate. We'll see. I'm glad you're enjoying this. I will continue where appropriate.
<!--QuoteBegin--PseudoKnight+Oct 10 2003, 08:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Oct 10 2003, 08:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ultimately it's up to you whether you have ringers in or not, but I find your reasons to be slightly hypocritical. You say that there can't be a fair pool of ringers ala my suggestion, but at the same time you're doing the same picking process with team leaders. You're putting teams together based on a draft system (not comradery based), but at the same time you think ringers would destroy the team concept. It's not uncommon to outsource talent and in a way picking from a draft system is alot like picking ringers. It's up to you, but I wouldn't want you to make that decision based on weak arguments. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There is not biast against ringers other than they are unfair and ruin the concept of a team working together.
While yes, we will be taking almost a random(not too random though) approach to the making of the teams, the point is that after they are picked, they will learn, work, and grow together as a mini-clan of sorts. By the end of the season, the team should really know each other very well, and have grown by leaps and bounds from their first match to their last match.
Now you may say: "Contridiction!", because I'm gonna allow trading into the system sooner or later at one point (like the 2nd-3rd season), right? Well, the thing I haven't told everyone about trading is that it will only be allowed for the first four weeks or so while teams get their bearings together.
Another reason ringers will not be allowed is because it pretty much defeats the purpose of any league.
Why bother to setup a home page, a database, where players sign up, when teams can just PUG their way to victory? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Nothing about ringers makes sense. If a team can't play because of inactivity, then that team will learn another reality of clan play: People have lives and can make yours suck as well. However, making sure teams will have active players will be emphazied by the league structure, as well as the teams themselves, hopefully they will always encourage their teammates to continue playing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you sign up, that pretty much shows that you have the time to spend playing in the matches, so I'm not expecting too many absences, that would kind of defeat the idea of NS draft.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The question i have to ask is, have you ever organized a big event with semi organized people? By semi organized i mean people that sign up for specific events, some people will know how to play the game well, others will not.
I havnt done such a thing in NS, but i have in the game Asherons Call (dt the pvp server) which would be 20-30 people at once, every time we had sign ups for fights half the people would not show. Eventually we just made fights up at the gathering spot because it just didnt work out.
This is not clan play, so the teams will not be super organized, they will organize more or less as time passes but if they cant play because half their team doesnt show then they will just quit.
I'm posting this mainly because this is suppose to be 8v8 league but 8 is the max team size which is a very bad mistake.
<!--QuoteBegin--zojakownith+Oct 11 2003, 01:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zojakownith @ Oct 11 2003, 01:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm posting this mainly because this is suppose to be 8v8 league but 8 is the max team size which is a very bad mistake. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--zojakownith+Oct 11 2003, 12:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zojakownith @ Oct 11 2003, 12:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm posting this mainly because this is suppose to be 8v8 league but 8 is the max team size which is a very bad mistake. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What are we going to do if the other team always shows up with thier 5 skilled players and not with their 3 unskilled players.
What about the other teams how are they going to choose thier players.
I have a bad feeling that the players that arn't that great are going to be pressured (maybe even self induced) to simply not show up.
<!--QuoteBegin--zojakownith+Oct 11 2003, 04:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zojakownith @ Oct 11 2003, 04:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> According to the faq its 8v8 =/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> According to the FAQ it's 8v8 at max and 6v6 a min.
I encourage larger teamsizes as larger teamsizes allow more room for error on the part of the people learning organized play.
Also, 7 marines on the field vs. 8 aliens isn't as bad as 5 marines vs. 6 aliens.
Yes I will. For example, our website is now up, as listed on the first page of this thread. However, there seems to be a bug with the e-mail. As soon as the main web site developer gets back (he went away this weekend), it will be fixed.
Also, if you are interested in becoming a team leader, the application is up on the website. I will be picking team leaders ( with the help of my cohorts ) on Friday, October 12th. No application recieved after that day will be chosen.
The team leader will be actually drafting players, so if it sounds like fun to you, sign up. Since this is critical, we ask that more experienced players apply to offset any unfair team advantages.
<!--QuoteBegin--Diskord+Oct 15 2003, 04:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diskord @ Oct 15 2003, 04:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The team leader will be actually drafting players, so if it sounds like fun to you, sign up. Since this is critical, we ask that more experienced players apply to offset any unfair team advantages. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Let me correct this statement:
If you think you know a lot of the players in the community (at least 30%-40%, you can't know EVERYONE, this is aimed at getting people involved after all), then apply for the team leader position.
There was a quick point I wanted clarification on. Is this still open to people in a somewhat stable clan? I couldn't quite figure that out, because no where did I see if expressly say that being in a clan meant you couldn't be in NSDraft.
<!--QuoteBegin--PseudoKnight+Oct 10 2003, 07:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Oct 10 2003, 07:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can't show them how organized play works when they have to forfeit due to lack of players. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> We are trying to make the teams flexible to allow for absences, as I pointed out, this is for people with the time (like you also said) to participate in organized play, half of the work is showing up, we pretty much base that on the hope that at <b>least</b> 6 of the 8 players will show.
<!--QuoteBegin--separatE_Entity+Oct 20 2003, 09:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (separatE_Entity @ Oct 20 2003, 09:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now these team leaders, they are also leaders during gameplay as well? Or no? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They can if they want to be.
Comments
Forgive me if I'm overstepping my bounds. I'm not trying to pester you.
PS soberena, is there a point to your post besides post count++?
Could you point out the "things" wrong with my "argument"?
I have no NS competitive play experience. Only that of other games. (and my name is PseudoKnight, not Psuedo. Call me PK for short. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Are you looking to create perfectly balanced teams or are you letting the best team win in objective competitive play? Team stacking can happen without ringers.
I gotta agree with this.
I see no system that makes any sense that lets ringers in.
Only thing to keep in mind is that you should let teams merge that don't have enough active players. In a way that would kinda be like ringing, but I think it is neccessary.
As for later comments remeber the idea is 8 per team, then if less then 8 show up the other team has to not play all thier people (equal number).
Could you point out the "things" wrong with my "argument"?
I have no NS competitive play experience. Only that of other games. (and my name is PseudoKnight, not Psuedo. Call me PK for short. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Are you looking to create perfectly balanced teams or are you letting the best team win in objective competitive play? Team stacking can happen without ringers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And who will be in the set pool of ringers? Clanners who are good? Or complete nubs?
If they are complete nubs, then no one will want to use them, and if they are 'elite' then everyone will want them over their own team members.
No matter what, it can't work. As long as the 'pool' of ringers has at least <b>one</b> player in it that would be better than people normally on the team, then it would advantageous to use the ringer and therefore some unlawful things will happen to get the ringer on.
I am looking to create somewhat balanced teams (perfect balance is literally impossible, we aren't talking numbers here... we are talking human beings!) where the best team wins. This should create a fun enviroment. I am hoping that because teams will have a varied base of skill, what will happen is that teams that don't look to win will end up winning, with lots of upsets.
We aren't looking to create perfectly balanced teams, if we were, we (the other leaders and I) would be doing this some other way, the point is to let you know how this organized play thing works.
PK, do you want to be a part of it or not? I know you are trying to help, and thanks, but I do believe we have more than a clue to what we are doing <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> but by all means, keep it coming.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT: Just so you know -- we registered www.nsdraft.com yesterday, it should be up today.
Yes
rofl @ CK <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
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#nsdraft unable to join channel (address is banned)
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Is there some stigma attached to "ringers" that I'm unaware of?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We aren't looking to create perfectly balanced teams, if we were, we (the other leaders and I) would be doing this some other way, the point is to let you know how this organized play thing works.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And yet one of the arguments against ringers is that they would imbalance the teams. (which I've shown isn't true anyway) You can't show them how organized play works when they have to forfeit due to lack of players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->PK, do you want to be a part of it or not? I know you are trying to help, and thanks, but I do believe we have more than a clue to what we are doing but by all means, keep it coming.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->If I felt confident that I could invest the time, I would love to participate. We'll see. I'm glad you're enjoying this. I will continue where appropriate.
There is not biast against ringers other than they are unfair and ruin the concept of a team working together.
While yes, we will be taking almost a random(not too random though) approach to the making of the teams, the point is that after they are picked, they will learn, work, and grow together as a mini-clan of sorts. By the end of the season, the team should really know each other very well, and have grown by leaps and bounds from their first match to their last match.
Now you may say: "Contridiction!", because I'm gonna allow trading into the system sooner or later at one point (like the 2nd-3rd season), right? Well, the thing I haven't told everyone about trading is that it will only be allowed for the first four weeks or so while teams get their bearings together.
Another reason ringers will not be allowed is because it pretty much defeats the purpose of any league.
Why bother to setup a home page, a database, where players sign up, when teams can just PUG their way to victory? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Nothing about ringers makes sense. If a team can't play because of inactivity, then that team will learn another reality of clan play: People have lives and can make yours suck as well. However, making sure teams will have active players will be emphazied by the league structure, as well as the teams themselves, hopefully they will always encourage their teammates to continue playing.
GL IN LIFE
The question i have to ask is, have you ever organized a big event with semi organized people? By semi organized i mean people that sign up for specific events, some people will know how to play the game well, others will not.
I havnt done such a thing in NS, but i have in the game Asherons Call (dt the pvp server) which would be 20-30 people at once, every time we had sign ups for fights half the people would not show. Eventually we just made fights up at the gathering spot because it just didnt work out.
This is not clan play, so the teams will not be super organized, they will organize more or less as time passes but if they cant play because half their team doesnt show then they will just quit.
I'm posting this mainly because this is suppose to be 8v8 league but 8 is the max team size which is a very bad mistake.
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
What are we going to do if the other team always shows up with thier 5 skilled players and not with their 3 unskilled players.
What about the other teams how are they going to choose thier players.
I have a bad feeling that the players that arn't that great are going to be pressured (maybe even self induced) to simply not show up.
According to the FAQ it's 8v8 at max and 6v6 a min.
I encourage larger teamsizes as larger teamsizes allow more room for error on the part of the people learning organized play.
Also, 7 marines on the field vs. 8 aliens isn't as bad as 5 marines vs. 6 aliens.
Will you still be posting updates in this thread Forlorn?
The team leader will be actually drafting players, so if it sounds like fun to you, sign up. Since this is critical, we ask that more experienced players apply to offset any unfair team advantages.
Let me correct this statement:
If you think you know a lot of the players in the community (at least 30%-40%, you can't know EVERYONE, this is aimed at getting people involved after all), then apply for the team leader position.
If so then I think it'd be fun.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
We are trying to make the teams flexible to allow for absences, as I pointed out, this is for people with the time (like you also said) to participate in organized play, half of the work is showing up, we pretty much base that on the hope that at <b>least</b> 6 of the 8 players will show.
They can if they want to be.