Imbalance
Nil_IQ
Join Date: 2003-04-15 Member: 15520Members
Join Date: 2003-04-15 Member: 15520Members
<div class="IPBDescription">*cringe* I hate that word</div> O.k, it as been a good long time since 2.0 came out (well, it feels like a long time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ). I think we can safely say both teams have stopped playing like it's 1.04 (except for the D-M-S phonomenon).
So IS there an imbalance?
In my opinion, yes.
I'm not saying this has always been the case, there was certainly a period of time when it seemed pretty much even, but in the last week, I haven't seen a single marine win. O.k, this could just be me, but I do find it pretty strange. Contrary to popular opinion, not every strategy has a counter.
For example, what do you do about early-game OCs?
Early fades can also be a problem, but hopefully a few shotguns would be more affordable by this stage.
And what is the counter for spore? HA? What if the lerk appears in the first few minutes of the game? A decent lerk can keep a team pinned in base for a whole game (particularly on bast with that little vent).
From what i've seen, this is partly because aliens have become much better at taking out marine res nodes. The Fade has become the standard resource-tower-killer. And why not? It's fast, it can heal itself on 2 hives or on 1 hive with defence chambers (which is nearly every game). Electrified nodes take slightly longer, but go down nonetheless. Not only this, but the regen gorge+skulks combo seems to be getting far more effective at taking down nodes (probably due to the dc being the chamber of choice, hence regen).
With marine nodes in increasing peril, this gives marines less resources to work with, which inevitably leads to alien domination.
Also, there seems to be a rapid decline of willing commanders. I can see why. The commander's job is way too stressful, he is expected to cater to the whims of each individual marine, giving them medpacks on demand every time they get a little boo-boo, while the phasegate is going down and they are humping the armoury.
The commander has to concentrate on 20 billion things at once, and I for one will only comm if absolutely no-one else will. And I warn them that I suck but get shouted at anyway. Arn't they so grateful after they shouted "FFS SOMEONE COMM U NUBS!!!" for 2 minutes.
Or is this just me? Has anyone else noticed aliens dominating? Or have I just been extremely unlucky?
I understand that the game can be perfectly balanced with a proper comm and marines that will listen, but this rarely happens on pubs, if ever.
Comments/flames/OMGN00BZ0R!!!!?
*Edit* O.k, I can see most of you DONT agree with this. I guess the marine's victory is mostly dependant on the commander, and I haven't seen many good (or even willing) commanders lately <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> *Edit*
So IS there an imbalance?
In my opinion, yes.
I'm not saying this has always been the case, there was certainly a period of time when it seemed pretty much even, but in the last week, I haven't seen a single marine win. O.k, this could just be me, but I do find it pretty strange. Contrary to popular opinion, not every strategy has a counter.
For example, what do you do about early-game OCs?
Early fades can also be a problem, but hopefully a few shotguns would be more affordable by this stage.
And what is the counter for spore? HA? What if the lerk appears in the first few minutes of the game? A decent lerk can keep a team pinned in base for a whole game (particularly on bast with that little vent).
From what i've seen, this is partly because aliens have become much better at taking out marine res nodes. The Fade has become the standard resource-tower-killer. And why not? It's fast, it can heal itself on 2 hives or on 1 hive with defence chambers (which is nearly every game). Electrified nodes take slightly longer, but go down nonetheless. Not only this, but the regen gorge+skulks combo seems to be getting far more effective at taking down nodes (probably due to the dc being the chamber of choice, hence regen).
With marine nodes in increasing peril, this gives marines less resources to work with, which inevitably leads to alien domination.
Also, there seems to be a rapid decline of willing commanders. I can see why. The commander's job is way too stressful, he is expected to cater to the whims of each individual marine, giving them medpacks on demand every time they get a little boo-boo, while the phasegate is going down and they are humping the armoury.
The commander has to concentrate on 20 billion things at once, and I for one will only comm if absolutely no-one else will. And I warn them that I suck but get shouted at anyway. Arn't they so grateful after they shouted "FFS SOMEONE COMM U NUBS!!!" for 2 minutes.
Or is this just me? Has anyone else noticed aliens dominating? Or have I just been extremely unlucky?
I understand that the game can be perfectly balanced with a proper comm and marines that will listen, but this rarely happens on pubs, if ever.
Comments/flames/OMGN00BZ0R!!!!?
*Edit* O.k, I can see most of you DONT agree with this. I guess the marine's victory is mostly dependant on the commander, and I haven't seen many good (or even willing) commanders lately <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> *Edit*
Comments
what counter lerk... a com that dont reloc to bad locations and lmg..
what counter oc.. 2 marines
what counter alien win... marines with a com that knows more aobut the game then where the last com relocated and what he started to build <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>For example, what do you do about early-game OCs?</b>
Shoot them. Or run past. If early game the aliens are dropping a lot of OC's that means they arn't dropping res towers, and good for you, bad for them.
<b>And what is the counter for spore? HA? What if the lerk appears in the first few minutes of the game? A decent lerk can keep a team pinned in base for a whole game (particularly on bast with that little vent).</b>
Intelligent marines. I know they are a rarity, but marines need to realize that the lerk is there to annoy and distract you, and if you chase after that lerk, then your letting him win. Ignore it, untill you know you can kill it with either GL's (vents) or trapping it somehow. Also a decent marine can easily snipe a lerk with his pistol in under a second.
<b>From what i've seen, this is partly because aliens have become much better at taking out marine res nodes. The Fade has become the standard resource-tower-killer. And why not? It's fast, it can heal itself on 2 hives or on 1 hive with defence chambers (which is nearly every game). Electrified nodes take slightly longer, but go down nonetheless. Not only this, but the regen gorge+skulks combo seems to be getting far more effective at taking down nodes (probably due to the dc being the chamber of choice, hence regen).</b>
Either your playing with exceptionally organized aliens, or very disorganized marine teams. My general experence commanding on public servers is that the average alien team all hoards thier res for Onos, allowing my marines full rein of the map, capping up to 7-8 res nodes. Get them all electrified, and since 80% of the aliens are hoarding their res and staying skulk, they never go down. By the time those hoarders have enough res to go Onos, my marines have full upgrades and the HA train is rolling. Dead Onos, aliens lose.
<b>Also, there seems to be a rapid decline of willing commanders. I can see why. The commander's job is way too stressful, he is expected to cater to the whims of each individual marine, giving them medpacks on demand every time they get a little boo-boo, while the phasegate is going down and they are humping the armoury.</b>
I love commanding now in 2.0 Its so much better with the new interface. As for armory humpers, if its a problem I sell the armory. I don't care if its upgraded or not. I will sell it.
Here is how a typical game goes for me:
Game starts. Everyone stacks marines/aliens (varies game-to-game)
No-one wants to comm. 2 people leave the server.
Aliens are now 2 minutes ahead and marines are basically screwed.
Also, i wasn't at all implying that fades are too strong, far from it. They just need a little... tweaking.
Let me respond to a few replies:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For example, what do you do about early-game OCs?
Shoot them. Or run past.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Easier said than done. By the time you get past you're on about 20hp, which the gorge/skulk hiding behind the OCs will gladly relieve you of.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And what is the counter for spore? HA? What if the lerk appears in the first few minutes of the game? A decent lerk can keep a team pinned in base for a whole game (particularly on bast with that little vent).
Intelligent marines. I know they are a rarity, but marines need to realize that the lerk is there to annoy and distract you, and if you chase after that lerk, then your letting him win. Ignore it, untill you know you can kill it with either GL's (vents) or trapping it somehow. Also a decent marine can easily snipe a lerk with his pistol in under a second.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, but as you said, intelligent marines ARE a rarity.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, there seems to be a rapid decline of willing commanders. I can see why. The commander's job is way too stressful, he is expected to cater to the whims of each individual marine, giving them medpacks on demand every time they get a little boo-boo, while the phasegate is going down and they are humping the armoury.
I love commanding now in 2.0 Its so much better with the new interface. As for armory humpers, if its a problem I sell the armory. I don't care if its upgraded or not. I will sell it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hear this all the time, but in reality it just gets you ejected and some idiot will take over and spam CCs. Although I DO like the new interface <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Aparently not many people enjoy comming as much as you <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
what counter fade.. lvl1 gun sg... Just about. If your marines dont run off and get picked off seperatly as they love to do...
what counter lerk... a com that dont reloc to bad locations and lmg.. this is a GOOD lerk im talking about
what counter oc.. 2 marines 2 marines? No. No way. With medspam, and assuming no other aliens are drawn by the "structure under attack" message, yes.
what counter alien win... marines with a com that knows more aobut the game then where the last com relocated and what he started to build Agreed. These seem to be a rarity.
O.k, maybe I just had a bad week. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
1. marines do not have unlimited ammo, they are not as mobile and thus much slower at destroying res towers.
2. marine res flow into buildings and electrifying. alien res only into the war machinery.
3. alien res are worth much more than marine res (seen in combat). 3 ha maybe stronger than 1 one onos head on head. but gameplaywise is an onos much better. its fast, it can devour, it can kill rts easily, healing doesn't require res or teamplay. an skilled onos will win against 3 has.
PS: i see aliens win 80% of the games lately too
- The team who plays better almost always wins
- Whats all this talk about not playing it like 1.04? To me its the same as 1.04 and I LOVE it (its just harder now <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Aliens are all about res. Marines are all about upgrades. Welcome to Natural Selection.
lol jk
yes but im asuming this fade has an IQ higher than 3.
im talking good fades, the ones i play in PCW's every day.
However, this is very very rare. Like I said, I comm very few games in NS. One of those games was today. I dont remember the name of the map, but its the one with refinery, feedwater, and engine.
I pulled off an early game relocation to atmospheric ( the double res -- a pretty common strat on this map ), and secured the res there, Feed ( and TF'd it up ), Tram Maintenance, Marine start res, Port Engine res. This is about 6 res, I say about cause I dont think we had all 6 at once, but for the most of the game we were swimming in res. I got full upgrades, HA, upgraded Armory, motion tracking -- just no jetpacks ( I find these are an invitation to Rambo on pubs ). Im pretty vocal, so I let everyone know that as soon as HA researched, I should have 100+res and will begin dropping HA in main, DO NOT LEAVE BASE IF YOU GET HA!!!
Well, I drop HA, and can you guess what happened? I immediately have 2 guys go Rambo. I ask, give waypoint, yell, scream, it doesnt matter, they go off to their doom. While this is transpiring, I got guys suicide rushing to Refinery, getting killed like mad, and one guy hellbent on taking Engine, he was actually pretty god, got a phase up in the vent and a TF, we were about to seige and I was beggin people to jump in the PG, but NO ONE did. I had one guy at base critiquing my sentry placement while the TF in Engine was being happily devoured by Skulks. The rest? God knows where they were, all the white dots on my mini-map were so scattered it looked like I sneezed on my screen, even though I had them all Waypointed to the base PG, and had been telling them to PHASE PHASE PHASE to ENGINE!!!
We had several abortive rushes into Refinery, but by this time our res was starting to wear out as we lost nodes and no one was travelling in groups. After about 30minutes my half-life froze up, and I got booted, I re-joined to find we had lost Feed and Tram, and had an ever-encroaching presence on our main base. All this, and people telling me Im a 'n00b' Comm. Yeah, Im a 'n00b' Comm. I got you lvl 3 weapons and armor, HA, HMGs/Shotguns/GL, welders, Motion Tracking . . . yeah, I *must* suck.
The reason why pub marines lose is they dont follow orders. Good orders, bad orders, it doesnt matter. Marines cant win if every marine thinks they are smarter than the Commander. If your marines run off in 10 different directions, none listening to the Commander, you are going to lose, period. Thats why Marines lose a lot on pubs, not because of balance issues, but because of stupidity. Its also why we lost that game above.
DO WHAT YOUR COMMANDER TELLS YOU!!!!
-Cpl. Hicks
Intelligent marines. I know they are a rarity, but marines need to realize that the lerk is there to annoy and distract you, and if you chase after that lerk, then your letting him win. Ignore it, untill you know you can kill it with either GL's (vents) or trapping it somehow. Also a decent marine can easily snipe a lerk with his pistol in under a second.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if the lerk <i>isn't</i> there to distract you and looking to kill you and if you run he will get his car and run you down?
Game starts. Everyone stacks marines/aliens (varies game-to-game)
No-one wants to comm. 2 people leave the server.
Aliens are now 2 minutes ahead and marines are basically screwed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I glad i'm not the only one seeing this.
I am getting really tired of ethier marines or aliens <b>always</b> getting stacked in the beginning. After 5-10 minutes of stackage the game seems to be basicly over for the other team.
Doesn't the fact that about the same amount of people claim that Aliens are overpowered as claim that Marines are overpowered give you a hint? I couldn't honestly say that the game is unbalanced in itself. Some *maps* are biased (lost towards aliens, origin towards marines for example), but on average, it IS balanced if both teams know how to play, or suck about the same (granted, a completely retarded COM will ensure a marine loss).
Game starts. Everyone stacks marines/aliens (varies game-to-game)
No-one wants to comm. 2 people leave the server.
Aliens are now 2 minutes ahead and marines are basically screwed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I glad i'm not the only one seeing this.
I am getting really tired of ethier marines or aliens <b>always</b> getting stacked in the beginning. After 5-10 minutes of stackage the game seems to be basicly over for the other team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose I should have specified that 2 people from the team with less players leave, making the teams usually 6vs8. This isn't always in favour of aliens, but it quite often is.
What gets me is this NEVER USED TO HAPPEN!
I remember when there was always someone willing to comm, teams were usually at least even-ish, and people actually obeyed orders (mostly; you will always get the occasionaly team of retards).
But lately it seems like all the decent players have left and NS is being flooded with n00bies who just want to rambo the hive and then blame the comm when all the team's res towers go down.
On a side note I have found that commanding without a mic is pure hell <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
weapons 3 is alittle to powerful
shotties way too powerful
HA too durable
in the end , however, these advantages act to counter balance the lame rambos who dont use the above eqiupment right.
Daxx: You dont know which clan mythril plays in eh?
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Aliens are overpowered in clangames yes...I acutally played a public gather(from which mythril left and should be banned btw) where 2 torment and a bm player +2 got killed by a team of 6 swedes from more or less all over, while we in turn got owned bad as marines...
I DONT know why...maybe its the fades, but I strongly think its the DCs....without DCs the fades are much less effective and so are all other lifeforms(onos' are more or less a waste, gorges die repeatedly and skulks dont get those extra steps)...
As soon as the countdown ends and the round begins, every clients executes "autoassign". No more stacking problems, no more readyroom idlers.
what counter lerk... a com that dont reloc to bad locations and lmg..
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As an insane expect lerk i can tell you what really counters lerks,
1.Armor upgrades nuff said, Level 0 and 1 armor a lerk will rape you. After you get level two, it may still rape you, but it begins to become a pain in the **** to kill marines with that much armor.
2. Shotgun ambush. 1 shot kapop, but i dont know many other lerks that fight in the face of the marine rather than keeping a distance in which then lerk > shotgun.
3. Learn to pistol wheel, you can dish out almost perfectly acurate bullets that when added up can do 200-260 damage per second. Thats enough to insta kill a lerk. A cara lerk has the equilant of 205 health. Most lerks get regen with has the equivlant of 175. Basically it takes 7 level 3 pistol shots to kill a lerk and if you pistol wheel a lerk its usually all or nothing. (i dont use pistol wheel its cheap and lame)
4. Nade lauchers, yeah gg lerk.
5. An ambush of anykind, gg if lerk has sof.
theres an insane truth to that, your average lerk is just anoying, but an insane "battle" lerk will hunt you down and finish you and your entire squad off in seconds. Its best to call for medpacks and ambush that **** when he over spents his energy and can't fly, in which if that lerk is chasing you till your doom, he'll probably run out of energy a couple times.