Sensory Falls Behind, Again
BattleTech
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4137Members
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4137Members
I remember, back during the playtesting of 2.0 and the final release of 2.0.
Sensory chamber's were almost as wildly used as defense chambers were used back in 1.04.
But, now.. month's after the final release..
The sensory chamber has fallen back to the bottomless pit known as the third hive though the chambers abilities are much more effective than d-chambers and m-chambers early game and mid-game.
Was it just the fact the marine's could drop an observatory and only dish out 1-3 ping's with full energy so you couldn't feel invincible hiding in your cloaking field?
Or was it the fact people needed their loving carapace so they could survive 2 or 3 extra shot's and go ramboing around the entire map?
Now It's back to the point when a sensory is dropped the team goes "Omg sensory, we lose" or "Omg, n00b!!" when it's dropped at the first or second hive.
Sensory chamber's were almost as wildly used as defense chambers were used back in 1.04.
But, now.. month's after the final release..
The sensory chamber has fallen back to the bottomless pit known as the third hive though the chambers abilities are much more effective than d-chambers and m-chambers early game and mid-game.
Was it just the fact the marine's could drop an observatory and only dish out 1-3 ping's with full energy so you couldn't feel invincible hiding in your cloaking field?
Or was it the fact people needed their loving carapace so they could survive 2 or 3 extra shot's and go ramboing around the entire map?
Now It's back to the point when a sensory is dropped the team goes "Omg sensory, we lose" or "Omg, n00b!!" when it's dropped at the first or second hive.
Comments
Invisibility is so awesome... I won a game yesterday by shift-walking invisible to the marine start, killed 3 humpers and killed their ip. Easy win <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't really see sensory chamber falling behind, in my experiences it's getting even better when you learn how to efficiently use it!
I'd like to see more people adapt playing style and let the first gorge to drop a chamber decide what it is.
Stand in the middle of a corridor in the early game... and wait.
A marine will walk RIGHT into you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The problem with sens is that unless you can get a 2nd hive up soon, you can be pretty screwed without regen/redemption...
Oh and sensory first is awesome, as long as I don't have to be alien. Oh, *almost* lost to Sensory first as COM today. Was *totally* unprepared for it, had relocated to CP on ns_caged and was all set up to go hit alien nodes. Had already spent all the res so it took a while to adapt. Aliens even got a second hive up. I lose a fair share of the games I com, and I com a lot, but I have *still* never lost against sensory (since 1.0).
But it does have potential,provided you put them in places where marines can't easily access <b>AND</b> is hardly noticed by the comm.
Sensory's weakness primarily lays in how people respond to it (demoralizing aliens before a game even begins), how people use it to attack.
It is no one's fault but their own if they think they should still be able to rush their base with sensory. That is completely their fault. THEY being the people who treat this like a somewhat organized team deathmatch.
I cannot begin to say how much easier it is to contain marines and prevent them from taking RT positions with sensory.
No, sensory's weakness is that it offers no significant bonuses for advanced evolutions. Unless you win the game within 5-10 minutes you will need *three* hives to win. Of course good COM's know this and will just make sure you don't get the third hive.
The fact that it is easily negated by a competent commander is just a side-argument.
Just for the state of "you just dont know how to play with it" . Thats just utterly bullshait. SC is the chamber for all the beginner players to frag & rambo all around as much as they please. BUT when it comes to marines having multiple electrified RT's around the map and secured hive locations to aliens 1 hive. You begin to see why it isnt as usefull as many people say it is.
You want to have fun regardless of how the round ends? Choose SC, if you want to win, choose something else.
BTW, obs have energy, motion tracking costs 45 res which isnt exactly an early game thing as arms labs take presedence over the obs usually, if you can find this out then get sc's in strategic positions then you can dominate areas quite easily.
MT is not the thing against SC, you cant see walking cloaked aliens with it. I said <i>decent</i>, which IMO is the guy who knows how to counter SC.
Surely the same <i>decent</i> comm would then also know how to counter Mc's and Dc's, it all relative.
As i see it, with many good strats depending on early fades to deter rine expansion and destroying electrified nodes, going sens first hampers that and requires much more alien expansion to put the final blow on the marines.
If:
1) It is placed as soon as possible.
2) A second hive is secured.
As far As I have seen, the most successfull way to get sensory to win in a 6-8v6-8 game:
As soon as game starts:
1 skulk is designated as a "hive saver" - He/she saves for the hive right from the start.
2 skulks go gorge and cap/protect res nodes
1-3 skulks go gorge, drop a sensory, then go back to skulk.
Remaining skulks (if any) are backups and save for higher lifeforms and defences.
Early game:
Once the 4-6 skulks have all evolved cloaking, they position themselves at various strageic points, using cloak walking to advance if need be - their purpose is basically to slow the marine expansion down incredibly, and, without any better wording, kill as many marines as possible. This will force the marines into a defencive position - and they will likely spend quite a lot of their starting res on the Obs and Motion tracking upgrades. the two gorges placing res nodes will likely have placed one node each, and an offence chamber or two - possibly a very stratgeically placed sensory which will help enormously.
Mid/early game:
The designtated "hive saver" should now have enough res for a hive, which comes just in time as now the skulks will have lost their initial advantage (obs/mt). Remaing 3 skulks can either continue attack runs, or if their res permits, place more nodes (which is recommended), or offence chamber traps (sensory + OCs). Res should be flowing in nicely by now.
Midgame:
The 2nd hive should be up, and defence chambers placed. If all has gone well, you should have enough nodes to have a comfertable res flow, and DCs for higher lifeforms. An Onos/fade at this point will be incredibly usefull at destroying any advances the marines have made. If the teams are even, this is where the game is decided - both teams should be able to attack/counter each other.
Endgame:
Once the thrid hive is on it's way, it's pretty much over for the marines at this point. The skulks/gorges should have placed enough sensorys and offence chambers to make the entire map a huge trap for marines, and force them to hide in their base, awaiting the imminent onos stampede.
This is what I have seen from fairly skilled pub servers. Sensory first does require a little more teamwork though, and a lot more building that usual.
However, generally, if the sensories are not placed soon, after a certain amount of time, DC's become the best option.
The reasons why we're back to the old DMS order is because it's most effective... when it comes to direct confrontation.
We all know that Regen-Fades rule the battlefield on pub and expecially on Clanplay.
The Problems with SC first is that you need a very coordinated team.
You need to get up the SCs asap.
You need to play in a way that does NOT go for direct confrontation, but sneaky ambushes.
It's also important that you try to make your enemy not know you got SCs, so it takes longer for them to adept.
Don't stand in the middle of a hallway cloaked, wait for a Marine and jump him into the face... hang on the ceilling cloaked, let him pass, kill him from behind, so he will think he missed to check a spot.
Beast has quite a good outline of how you can win with SCs first.
The point is, you won't need Fades or Oni, you will win the game with Skulks.. and you have to do that early or you're screwed.
I always try to encourage variety of our server... I cannot (at least i DO NOT) enforce it, but from time to time i find people that see it the same way than me and we have a fun round.. that's what pubbing should be about.
-my2cents-
Wow, I'll just shake my head and try to smile because your a vet (no this is not vet bashing, I love many vets). But honestly, how does sensory compare mid-game to D's or M's? The attacking capibilties allow M's and D's to totally kick **** mid-game where sensory still puts you on the defensive.
Personally, I would like to see movements make a comeback as first chamber.... They need to up celerity just a little again, maybe by just 5%....
But honestly, I don't even like Cara, I always pick regen anyways, if I even bother upgrading as a skulk.
Agreed.
I have to slightly disagree, but here's why:
I'll agree, that for the most part, D's are better. But I personally like Moves for pub games. It allows you to get places quicker to stop their expansions and if needed, you can have a gorge with adrenline constantly healspray aliens while they kill of an electrfied node.
Granted, thats a little more inconvient, but it still gives movement viability for a first hive chamber.
If you can counter-point it, I would love a discussion, simply because thats just the way I see it, maybe you took a different look at it then I did and have a better point? Or maybe you to believe M's first is okay, but you just perfer d's....
Yea, I sound like an idiot, but whatever....
You can break 2 hive lockdown with mov first it just employs different tactics and is a bit harder to do.
If that really were the case, I'd insist on sensory EVERY SINGLE ROUND. I'd rather lose a fun game than win a boring one (I'm speaking pubs here of course, God forbid clanners having FUN <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->).
In my opinion, sensory is still a good choice. Of course, sensory first requires a different style of play than defence first does. Seeing that we play defence so much, this is what people know best, and what they'll do best at. Hence why some people say that they constantly see aliens lose with sensory first.
I have personally been owned to smithereens by cloakers, and I've been on the cloaking, owning side as well. I've also seen cloakers lose, playing on both sides. Sensory is no guaranteed win, even if you follow the strategy of hampering marine expansion. If it were, it'd be overpowered.
Sensory is not good for breaking a fortified position. This is why your goal should be not to let the rines GET fortified positions. Stepping out of their base should be an exercise in dying quickly. This is what most of the aliens should concentrate on. Once marines start spreading around the map like wildfire, you're in deep trouble. Phasegates will allow them to travel around the map, and suddenly you'll be struggling to keep up. No marines should be allowed to get out of the base. The few aliens not on "guard duty" should IMMEDIATELY report marines snooping about where they're not supposed to be. Scans are best fought by falling back, then shift-walking back into your ambush spots when the scan is over. With luck, you'll catch a few unlucky rines building something as well.
Remember, with sensory, this is Metal Gear Selection, not Natural Quake. With sensory, you gotta make sure you have the upper hand all the time. Once you drop behind, you'll be fighting an uphill battle the rest of the round.
Wow, I'll just shake my head and try to smile because your a vet (no this is not vet bashing, I love many vets). But honestly, how does sensory compare mid-game to D's or M's? The attacking capibilties allow M's and D's to totally kick **** mid-game where sensory still puts you on the defensive.
Personally, I would like to see movements make a comeback as first chamber.... They need to up celerity just a little again, maybe by just 5%....
But honestly, I don't even like Cara, I always pick regen anyways, if I even bother upgrading as a skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno mate, mid game you'll have fades at least, maybe even an onos. While you don't have the advantage of more life/more attacks you can still ambush. And the bigger the ambushing alien the worse for the marines.
Yes, ambushes are more a defensive action- but if you keep them from expanding in this way, all three hives are yours. If you fail to stop their expansion I see this to be because of team skill, rather than chamber balance.
-In a preventive measure of hive lockdowns drop a sensory in each hive room/near it. Even if they scan/kill the chamber you'll immediately know they're there.
-Scent of fear means marines cannot hide from you. No expansions will go unnoticed. Unless you ignore them, which has nothing to do with SC being a lesser choice.
But let's say the marines get a lucky hive lock down, so how does sensory help now?
-Once again, you can keep them in their marine start/hive locations by ambushing their exits.
-With this you'll have a second hive up, with defense on the way (or movement, if you like)
-If the marines are poor (they should be, if you're doing your job) the hive defences will drain them and a fade for distraction- and a couple skulks should be able to rush down an obs. At this point the marines don't know when an alien might decide to walk into their base. Keep the pressure, they'll crack.
M/D's increase your physical abilities, giving you an edge in dog fights (as it were). Sensories are a CONTROL chamber. They are in place to ambush marines wherever they might go outside their base and prevent them from getting hives. If you don't see SC's as useful midgame, it's because the marines managed to get out of their base and expand- meaning you failed in your mission. On games where you kept the marines at MS, sensories have already fulfilled their duty by midgame by providing you with all three hives.
Any Magic The Gathering players? Sensory Chambers are like Blue/Islands- they're all about event control.