<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 20 2003, 04:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 20 2003, 04:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> right, so people have got their morals from the law, and the law got thier morals from religion so people get their morals from religion
i dont see how you have proved me wrong in everything, you have only given your side of the argument <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Could you please actually <b>read</b> what I posted? What you <i>should</i> have said is:
Right, so people have got their morals from the law, and the law got thier morals from an ancient religion based government, and religion got its morals from a group of people who sat down and decided that they didnt want to be treated badly, so people get their morals from people (-> ie common sense).
As for this discussion, you started out with about 20 different "arguements" you were trying to push, I have disproved them with scientific facts, if you won't accept facts then there is no help for you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->all i am asking is, if a guy goes on a rampage, kills 30 people and then himself, is that fair?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What has this got to do with anything? Life isnt fair, GET OVER IT!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for this discussion, you started out with about 20 different "arguements" you were trying to push, I have disproved them with scientific facts, if you won't accept facts then there is no help for you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, you havent. you hardly became involved in this until a few posts ago. Basically all you have said is that humans have no souls. On what evidence (facts) do you base this statement?
you cant get your morals from religion, you gain them yourself. ill say what i posted once again bacuase most people in here seem to act like my posts are invisible.
ok definition of moral is: of or relating to <span style='color:blue'>principles</span> of right and wrong in behavior :ethical <moral <span style='color:red'>judgments</span>>
<span style='color:blue'> a comprehensive and fundamental law, </span><span style='color:green'>doctrine</span><span style='color:blue'>, or assumption</span>
<span style='color:red'>the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing</span>
<span style='color:green'> a principle of </span><span style='color:orange'>law</span> <span style='color:green'> established through past decisions</span>
<span style='color:orange'>a rule of construction or procedure</span>
and when we put this all together we get:
<b><u>moral: of or relating to a comprehensive and fundamental rule of procedure established through past decisions of right and wrong in behavior :ethical <moral process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing></b></u>
so basically when you do something right you compare it to doing something wrong. one makes you feel good(happy), one makes you feel bad(sad). everybody that i know likes being happy more than being sad. and because of our selfishness of wanting to be happy, we dont go around killing people. if we did, we would end up feeling bad because we would compare the results in our heads.[/QUOTE]
THAT is what morals are.
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<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Basically all you have said is that humans have no souls. On what evidence (facts) do you base this statement? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you still havent shown us any facts that humans have souls. all you have said is "since we think about the afterlife we must have souls." and that statement is comepletly based off your opinion, not fact. i personally dont know if we have souls or not. i just find it ironic that youre asking him for facts about something you dont even know the truth about, thus, your statement is just an opinion, as is his.
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<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Yay, look at me, im gonna get a machine gun and go an slaughter 30 innocent school kids then kill myself because i will get away with it" How fair is that?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> im sorry to burst your bubble, but who ever said life was fair? just because people do bad things it doesnt mean theyre gonna be punished. life is not a movie where the "bad guy" always loses, and the "good guy" always wins.
so, if we make our own morals, who are we to judge others? how can anybody judge anybody else if we are working on a different set of morals? Everybody will just say "well, i think its alright to rape an 8 yr old girl" and thats ok. they are entitled to thier own opinion, thier morals say it is fine, how can anyone be judged?
You want proof there we have souls and there is an afterlife? read the gospels, jesus talking to one of the criminals on the cross says "I promise you this, today you will be with me in paradise" now, if you please, proof that there is no afterlife and we do not have souls
Boggle while we have our own individual morals that we gain from our life experience, we also have laws which are set moral values for society, things that most (but not all) people will agree on - this is why we use a democratic voting system to pass laws. As for raping an 8yr old.. the only judgement you can make on them is that they have moral values that don't go along with societys set morals. Its up to you to decide if you agree with their morals.
You read that from a gospel? ok..
"I promise you that tomorrow a plane will crash into your house"
Well you just read that on an internet forum! I'd say that this source has as much validty as your gospel, lets see what happens tomorrow...
Humans have no soul. I have absolutely no evidence, physical evidence to back this up, but then you have no evidence, PHYSICAL evidence to say that we do. What we do, we do because we want to. Now get back to the AI discussion. That at least was intresting.
I say we will have proof when perfect AI is acheived, until then the overwhelming biological evidence with no realistic alternate theories is enough to keep me convinced
if morals came from ourselves then I'm glad we live in america....because what if you lived in a society that thought stealing and murdering and sacrificing was ok? what if there is a person that it is doesn't bother them to kill someone and take there belongings because it makes them happy that they have gained more worldly possessions? there morals are based on what they what makes them happy and no by our american standards this is not ok of course....saying morals comes from ourselves sounds like a good way to conquer someone because it makes you happy to have more power....
<!--QuoteBegin--Mercior+Oct 20 2003, 09:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mercior @ Oct 20 2003, 09:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I say we will have proof when perfect AI is acheived, until then the overwhelming biological evidence with no realistic alternate theories is enough to keep me convinced <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The biological evidence proves as much as my source does. Biology has not and cannot prove any presence of an afterlife as the afterlife is nothing to do with biology
Sorry but I can't accept a supposed quote as evidence, I could just write "we do not have souls", say that is my evidence against your pro-soul claims and that would be just as valid!
This isnt even what you were originally argueing, you were saying earlier in this thread that perfect AI would not disprove the existance of a soul and I gave a lot of evidence to show you that it would.
it would only disprove the existence of God if: A: we have souls and it has a soul, or B: we do not have a soul and it does not either.
It therefore boils down to whether or not humans have souls
The bible is a valid historical source. Jesus did exist. whether he was the son of God is up to the individual to choose. the records of what he said can be relied on. there is nore evidence for Jesus than there is for Julius Ceasar. I suggest you look more carefully at other people's sources before you refute them.
Humans are born as a union of two cells: one sperm from the male and one egg from the female. The sperm cell breaks through the outer wall of the egg and releases its 23 chromosomes (each is actually only 1/2 of the pair.) The 23 pairs from the female then match up with the corresponding 23 from the male to create the required pairs. This single cell is thus complete, and begins to divide. Each resulting cell has a distinct purpose. As the cells continue to divide, the human embryo begins to take shape. After 9 months of dividing and building, this collection of cells (at this point recognizable as a human baby) reaches a point that it will soon become too large for the mother to deliver (IE fit through the pelvis.) Thus the baby comes popping out. Slap on a name, and there's a new human. Of course, many things can (and do) go wrong with this process, but that is pretty much the standard mechanism for how a new human organism comes to be.
Upon human death, on average some 77 years after birth in the U.S., the body turns into worm food. Your conscious no longer exists, and you (that is, the collection of neurons that comprise your mind) no longer function... therefore "you" no longer exist. No heaven, no hell, no purgatory, no place for what you would consider a "soul" to "go" to. Your body, however, persists... although it does not function as a human organism any longer. If left alone, the body will decompose naturally as bacteria, maggots, and other organisms start to eat away at your flesh and tissue.
What happens in between is the fun stuff. All you can hope to do is make the most of it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The bible is a valid historical source. Jesus did exist. whether he was the son of God is up to the individual to choose.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> the bible says jesus is the son of god, but you say its up to the person to choose if thats correct or not. so how can the bible be valid if people have to make choices whether or not they believe what it says is true?
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<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It therefore boils down to whether or not humans have souls<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> you are correct, its just too bad that not one person on earth can accurately say whether or not humans have souls, since nobody knows has 100% proof.
Comments
i dont see how you have proved me wrong in everything, you have only given your side of the argument <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could you please actually <b>read</b> what I posted? What you <i>should</i> have said is:
Right, so people have got their morals from the law, and the law got thier morals from an ancient religion based government, and religion got its morals from a group of people who sat down and decided that they didnt want to be treated badly, so people get their morals from people (-> ie common sense).
As for this discussion, you started out with about 20 different "arguements" you were trying to push, I have disproved them with scientific facts, if you won't accept facts then there is no help for you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->all i am asking is, if a guy goes on a rampage, kills 30 people and then himself, is that fair?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What has this got to do with anything? Life isnt fair, GET OVER IT!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for this discussion, you started out with about 20 different "arguements" you were trying to push, I have disproved them with scientific facts, if you won't accept facts then there is no help for you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, you havent. you hardly became involved in this until a few posts ago. Basically all you have said is that humans have no souls. On what evidence (facts) do you base this statement?
ok definition of moral is: of or relating to <span style='color:blue'>principles</span> of right and wrong in behavior :ethical <moral <span style='color:red'>judgments</span>>
<span style='color:blue'> a comprehensive and fundamental law, </span><span style='color:green'>doctrine</span><span style='color:blue'>, or assumption</span>
<span style='color:red'>the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing</span>
<span style='color:green'> a principle of </span><span style='color:orange'>law</span> <span style='color:green'> established through past decisions</span>
<span style='color:orange'>a rule of construction or procedure</span>
and when we put this all together we get:
<b><u>moral: of or relating to a comprehensive and fundamental rule of procedure established through past decisions of right and wrong in behavior :ethical <moral process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing></b></u>
so basically when you do something right you compare it to doing something wrong. one makes you feel good(happy), one makes you feel bad(sad). everybody that i know likes being happy more than being sad. and because of our selfishness of wanting to be happy, we dont go around killing people. if we did, we would end up feeling bad because we would compare the results in our heads.[/QUOTE]
THAT is what morals are.
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<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Basically all you have said is that humans have no souls. On what evidence (facts) do you base this statement? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you still havent shown us any facts that humans have souls. all you have said is "since we think about the afterlife we must have souls." and that statement is comepletly based off your opinion, not fact.
i personally dont know if we have souls or not. i just find it ironic that youre asking him for facts about something you dont even know the truth about, thus, your statement is just an opinion, as is his.
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<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Yay, look at me, im gonna get a machine gun and go an slaughter 30 innocent school kids then kill myself because i will get away with it" How fair is that?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
im sorry to burst your bubble, but who ever said life was fair? just because people do bad things it doesnt mean theyre gonna be punished. life is not a movie where the "bad guy" always loses, and the "good guy" always wins.
You want proof there we have souls and there is an afterlife? read the gospels, jesus talking to one of the criminals on the cross says "I promise you this, today you will be with me in paradise" now, if you please, proof that there is no afterlife and we do not have souls
You read that from a gospel? ok..
"I promise you that tomorrow a plane will crash into your house"
Well you just read that on an internet forum! I'd say that this source has as much validty as your gospel, lets see what happens tomorrow...
The biological evidence proves as much as my source does. Biology has not and cannot prove any presence of an afterlife as the afterlife is nothing to do with biology
This isnt even what you were originally argueing, you were saying earlier in this thread that perfect AI would not disprove the existance of a soul and I gave a lot of evidence to show you that it would.
It therefore boils down to whether or not humans have souls
The bible is a valid historical source. Jesus did exist. whether he was the son of God is up to the individual to choose. the records of what he said can be relied on. there is nore evidence for Jesus than there is for Julius Ceasar. I suggest you look more carefully at other people's sources before you refute them.
Upon human death, on average some 77 years after birth in the U.S., the body turns into worm food. Your conscious no longer exists, and you (that is, the collection of neurons that comprise your mind) no longer function... therefore "you" no longer exist. No heaven, no hell, no purgatory, no place for what you would consider a "soul" to "go" to. Your body, however, persists... although it does not function as a human organism any longer. If left alone, the body will decompose naturally as bacteria, maggots, and other organisms start to eat away at your flesh and tissue.
What happens in between is the fun stuff. All you can hope to do is make the most of it.
the bible says jesus is the son of god, but you say its up to the person to choose if thats correct or not. so how can the bible be valid if people have to make choices whether or not they believe what it says is true?
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<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It therefore boils down to whether or not humans have souls<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you are correct, its just too bad that not one person on earth can accurately say whether or not humans have souls, since nobody knows has 100% proof.