<!--QuoteBegin--Kwil+Aug 14 2003, 02:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Aug 14 2003, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Let's look at what spreading alien RFK will do to the marines. As it stands now, the marines are having a problem because 'leetness in skulk form is eating them and will be evolving soon, due to RFK, right? However, since he's the only one getting the RFK, if you can avoid him and get around, you stand a good chance of doing some damage elsewhere. If we spread the RFK out, suddenly the guys in the back lines, the non-'leets, the gorges, etc, have a lot more res to build up static defense. Now, not only do the marines have to deal with uber-skulk at their base, they also have a lot harder time getting away from the base and away from the leetness. In addition, those static defenses are bringing in even *more* res to the team, including our uber-fellow, as the WoLs and carefully placed OCs whittle down any type of expansion force. By distributing RFKs, aliens actually wind up in a better position than they do currently.
Now, let's look at the armory.. it has more effect in larger games than smaller ones, this is true. This is also something for a good commander to be aware of. Of course larger games also mean larger alien teams, which mean that the marines actually need those widespread benefits more, simply because a commander is only one person, and the effort of micromanagement goes up almost exponentially as the number of people go up. Also, larger alien teams mean more aliens available for early rushes.. which means you need those upgrade sooner. Increasing the cost of it as the team sizes go up serves only to doom the marines, as repeated waves of skulks hit the base, and if each skulk manages to cut down only one marine before dying, then he's set to get an upgrade and perhaps be able to take out two next time. This means that by the time your increased research cost can be afforded, aliens have already fully upgraded themselves and are considering going lerk/fade, and an early lerk near marine base is *bad news*, especially when marines are busy trying to save for upgrades so aren't able to be handing out the HA and GLs willy nilly. (All this is assuming the RFK isn't distributed. If it is, they've also got second hive up.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To your first point:
Incorrect.
First off, you cannot avoid fights with skulks as marines. Aliens are the ones who determine most fights in general. A skulk can always attack marines, or defend structures from marines. Marines cannot always attack skulks or 'avoid' them. The skulks are twice as fast as marines and are able to crawl through vents that give them huge speed advantages over marines. A good skulk will always pick his fights carefully so that he has a good shot at winning, and will not be 'avoided'. Second, gorges that get an extra 2-3 res from the skulks at the front line doesn't really mean more static defenses. Gorges that get an extra 2-3 res(remember, if one gorge got 2-3 res from a skulk on the front lines, this means providing the teams were equal then that means <b> marine team died twice.</b> :/ Please, don't say it will be easy to horde res for the entire team.) will get that 2-3 extra res because it helps to speed up the game. Remember, the R4K was done not to define the entire alien team, it was done to help speed up the game. R4K as it stands is just about everything for the alien team; if a gorge wants a lot of res he is usually better of going skulk and killing things. If you don't believe me on this then I must say you haven't been playing the game, everyone knows a skulk gets res <b>much</b> faster than a gorge right now. I believe that the skulk should get more res than the gorge, but not that much more res where the gorge might be close to getting a second hive by the time the skulk can go onos. It might be a valid criticism to state that the aliens might be too nerfed by my system, but to say it would overpower them is pure ludicris. Instead of having on a 6 man team, one alien with 100 res and everyone else around 20-40, you would have one alien with 70-80 res, and everyone else around 40-50. All my system does is help to close the gap that I see so often in just about every alien game.
To your next point:
To say the imbalance on larger games should be left in because the comm will have a harder time of micro'ing isn't a very good reason at all, because when a good comm does come around, he will fully exploit the imbalance as it is given to him. To say that more aliens = more dead marines from fast base rushes is illogical. Good marines in large numbers (esp. on pub servers where usually alien coordination is lacking) will chew up skulks providing they have enough aim to beat single player Half Life retail (Hint: It's not hard). However, I'm not going to lie here, there will be the good skulk that will get a good share of kills on larger servers, and this uber skulk will be grabbing an extra hive or going onos in record time. Again, if my R4K system were put in for aliens, you wouldn't see this happen unless the marine team totally sucked and had a ton of spawn portals to feed the aliens. I agree with you that if just my arms lab suggestion was taken and my R4K for aliens was not there would be further imbalance within the game, however, if you take both my suggestions then there would be balance. Or at least I would hope. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Seriously though, it feels like you didn't read my main post at all, judging by the way you think I distributed res on the alien team it seems like you thought I said when one alien gets a kill of 3 res, all aliens get 3 res... :/
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Increasing res distribution is only good for general pub games where you have difference in opinion on how it should be spent. So any discussion about REDISTRIBUTION OF RES is completely irrelevant. FORGET IT. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So balancing out the game in theory will only be good for pub games? Dude, it slows down alien games ENTIRELY. READ MY FIRST POST THX! This has nothign to do with "difference of oppinions". It completely slows down the entire alien economy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dynamic upgrade costs? Only necessary if you are going to do it to both sides. FORGET IT. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm... it is being done to both sides. Right now, with larger teams, aliens get res slower so they can't get hives faster and upgrade their entire team faster. However, it's completely screwed by res for kills, which completely ignores that fact that aliens should be getting res slower on larger games games in the first place! I mean, look at the entire alien economy; they get res slower larger games, but res for kills comes right along and <b>negates the entire principle</b>, resulting in insta-tech!
Now, if the alien economy was nerfed appropiratly along the lines of what I said, the it follows the arms lab must be also. They provide upgrades which grow more and more effective as the games get larger. If the upgrades are to be in balance, then they must grow more expensive in proportion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->current record for 2nd hive up 2:41<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 2:36 now, Spectre again. By the way, this means 3:d hive should be started at 6 minutes (if not sooner). Meaning that Marines are forced to lock it down, which means spending res.. which is still an excercise in futility since whatever they build can be taken down by a gorge and whatever they tech can be eaten by the onos that will show up ~10 mins into the game.
So Marines now either have to lock down two hives in 3 minutes or take one down. Which means shotgun rush. Which is easily beaten by as little as 5 aliens working together (1 lerk, 2 gorges and 2 skulks = spores + healspray*2 + bites = dead Marine team).
<!--QuoteBegin--Stoneburg+Aug 15 2003, 03:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Aug 15 2003, 03:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->current record for 2nd hive up 2:41<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 2:36 now, Spectre again. By the way, this means 3:d hive should be started at 6 minutes (if not sooner). Meaning that Marines are forced to lock it down, which means spending res.. which is still an excercise in futility since whatever they build can be taken down by a gorge and whatever they tech can be eaten by the onos that will show up ~10 mins into the game.
So Marines now either have to lock down two hives in 3 minutes or take one down. Which means shotgun rush. Which is easily beaten by as little as 5 aliens working together (1 lerk, 2 gorges and 2 skulks = spores + healspray*2 + bites = dead Marine team).
Yada yada, etc etc. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How fast the hives go up further exemplifies my point of unbalanced R4K.
I think the only difference between us is I was suggesting rfk be completely evenly shared because it will help make alien role specialization more viable (instead of just skulk skulk ogogog!!!111one which is the current alien gameplay situation).
I think if EITHER of these ideas were implemented they would bring a relatively huge benefit in gameplay fun with a very small amount of coding effort. I really hope the developers will try something like this out! Just put it in and test it in the beta or something, I don't see how coding my system would take more than about 15 minutes, and maybe 20 for forlorn's.
Not sure if this applies to 2.0, because most servers I've seen run 2.01 now. This applies to 2.01. Third hive abilites are not being used often. Why? well lets have a look:
Onos 3rd hive ability: Charge
Problem: Brilliant in 1.04, then it was battered by the nerf stick. Rarely used ever in 2.01, unless an Onos needs to flee from the heat of battle very quickly. Charge did huge amounts of damage to marines and enemy structures in 1.04, It was possible to knock down fleeing marines in a second or two upon contact. Now its hugely successfull first and second hive abilities render it pretty much unused. This is a third hive ability here! Surely it makes sense for it to be much more powerfull than the 2nd hive abilities, and would really make a difference to end those tediously stretched out games where the beaten enemy refuse to admit defeat.
How to fix it: Bring it back, 1.04 style. <i>Devastating</i>, just like a third hive ability should be.
Gorge 3rd hive ability: Web
Problem: A great weapon, but given at the wrong time. Web is a defensive weapon, used to slow down the enemy, and protect important locations on the map. When aliens get all three hives, and you finally get web, the game quickly turns into Alien Assault mode, and Oni and Fades close in for the killing spree.
How to fix: I'd like to see the results of swapping weapon slot places with Bilebomb, a devastating weapon when used correctly, it can damage a structure faster than a marine can weld it! Webs could then be used to protect middle/late game resource nodes and vital map locations earlier on in the game.
I'm pretty content with the rest of the third hive abilities. Lerk primal scream is pretty much perfect where it is, and Fade acid rocket could be more potent with a larger splash damage radius, but worthy of a third hive ability position all the same.
I wont go into details but I havent yet reached a verdict on Skulk xenocide yet.
edit: Wait a second..I could post this is in the Suggestions and ideas forum too.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Aug 15 2003, 02:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 15 2003, 02:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Right now, with larger teams, aliens get res slower so they can't get hives faster and upgrade their entire team faster. However, it's completely screwed by res for kills, which completely ignores that fact that aliens should be getting res slower on larger games games in the first place! I mean, look at the entire alien economy; they get res slower larger games, but res for kills comes right along and <b>negates the entire principle</b>, resulting in insta-tech! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is the crucial point where you are misled.
Yes, with larger teams, Aliens get res slower and their entire economy is slowed down...and yes, RFK helps reduce this effect. But <i>that</i> is <i>exactly</i> the point of adding RFK to the game in the first place! Where do you get the idea that the Alien economy <i>should</i> be slowed down in larger games? The Marine economy continues moving along at exactly the same rate, regardless of the number of people. Why should the Aliens have to tech slower simply because there are more of them?
<!--QuoteBegin--Walt+Oct 20 2003, 06:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Walt @ Oct 20 2003, 06:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Alien res collection - apples marine res collection - oranges apples compare to oranges? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is wrong.
#1. You can compare apples to oranges, I'm sure a scientist has already done it
#2. Both the marines and aliens eat apples, but one eats the apples with their hands and the other with their feet.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, with larger teams, Aliens get res slower and their entire economy is slowed down...and yes, RFK helps reduce this effect. But that is exactly the point of adding RFK to the game in the first place! Where do you get the idea that the Alien economy should be slowed down in larger games? The Marine economy continues moving along at exactly the same rate, regardless of the number of people. Why should the Aliens have to tech slower simply because there are more of them? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep in mind I made this post during 2.0. Flay has already done a lot to solve imbalances regarding to how fast each side can tech up, but back in 2.0 aliens had a huge advantage in that their economy was so fast due to res for kills in large games, whereas marines had to pay an arm and a leg for everything.
Flay's approch was to speed up the marine economy, mine was to slow down the aliens. Mine would have resulting in more careful, slower paced games (but not by much), Flay's has resulted in what you see today. Both could have been used to fix the economy imbalances, but Flay choose to go along the path of speeding up marines. I still think today that slowing down aliens would have possibly been better. But who knows now.
Also, this imbalance of getting res too fast for aliens still exist; notice how fades own up clan games right now. Part of this reason is due to R4K futher speeding up alien tech. Fades can come in at 2:40 on average at clan games with r4K + nodes. Notice how fades are currently up to 60, an effort made by Flay to futher slow down the alien game. Perhaps still my R4K nerf could still be used. *Shrugs* Who knows. Perma gorging would be a lot more valauble to the team, as some of your kills would be sent to the gorges as tax. Everyone has to make payments to the fat man sooner or later.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah... and if you were playing, say, Starcraft, (you heard of that game right?) and you are, say, playing the Terrans, would you win if you produced more upgraded marines than your opponent produced (lets say the Zerg) it's own uprgraded units? That's the point he's getting at, your number of units is sometimes limited by the number of players on the server, and this impedes you, unless you are on a larger game, then you have a lot of cheap, powerful units clustered in one or two small bases. That's probably not explaining it very well, but do you see how NS differs from a regular RTS in this way? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad someone could understand the arms lab imbalance; I thought it was quite clear that in traditional RTS's, upgrades for units were static as the amount of units you had were dynamic, whereas in an FPS/RTS the amount of units you have are static, therefore the upgrades must be dynamic. I thought it was quite amazing in how little to none understood such a simple concept.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the only difference between us is I was suggesting rfk be completely evenly shared because it will help make alien role specialization more viable (instead of just skulk skulk ogogog!!!111one which is the current alien gameplay situation).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason I like my idea more over yours is because my idea still rewards the skulk who made the kills. I think on pub play the balance is important to give the most skilled person (the dude getting most of the kills) the option to spend their res first, such as fade or a hive or upgrades or whatever. It's also more unique to reward the individual and fits in better with alien type of gameplay.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Posted: Aug 6 2003, 11:54 PM <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Damn man i see this means absolutely nothing to ya.
<!--QuoteBegin--nukeaqua+Oct 21 2003, 09:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (nukeaqua @ Oct 21 2003, 09:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Posted: Aug 6 2003, 11:54 PM <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Damn man i see this means absolutely nothing to ya. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, is this topic off-topic or any less relevent to overall balance of NS now because of the topic's date?
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
I think NS:C will solve the problem of the small game... Small games are bad because marines lose one fighter and there is no way to cover the entire map with 1 person.
I think that shared res is interesting but would simply lead to more fades coming in bunches slightly later (like 1-2 min)
And I think there should be something done to the Arms lab... I don't know if your solution addresses it, but I agree that in small games the arms lab is less important than outfitting 3 marines with shotguns, and in large games the overal benefit far outweighs the cost.
I don't have a good solution but perhaps one of the many out there will...
Side Note, I'm glad this was brought back, I missed it the first time round and it's a great topic..
<!--QuoteBegin--Zunni+Oct 21 2003, 02:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Oct 21 2003, 02:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think NS:C will solve the problem of the small game... Small games are bad because marines lose one fighter and there is no way to cover the entire map with 1 person.
I think that shared res is interesting but would simply lead to more fades coming in bunches slightly later (like 1-2 min)
And I think there should be something done to the Arms lab... I don't know if your solution addresses it, but I agree that in small games the arms lab is less important than outfitting 3 marines with shotguns, and in large games the overal benefit far outweighs the cost.
I don't have a good solution but perhaps one of the many out there will...
Side Note, I'm glad this was brought back, I missed it the first time round and it's a great topic.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes I too think NS:C will solve the problem of the small game, thank god, and in a much more interesting way than my orignal idea.
Shared res would indeed mean more fades coming in, all at the same time, most likely 1 min later. This is a good thing, I do believe. Fades coming too early is a huge problem right now. This is why fade cost is being upped to 60.
Why wouldn't making the arms lab cost dynamic values adress the problem?
I don't see how ns:c can _solve_ the problem of small games in normal ns. It may entice people away from playing small games and as a result downplay or hide the problem.
I suppose I am the one who brought this thread back from the dead but so what?
The res model is exactly the same as it was when this thread started. In fact it is perhaps more relelvant now when it was started because the problems have been proven to persist and negatively affect the game long term. Also there is a new patch in development as we speak, so what better time to bring up important issues?
<!--QuoteBegin--BreakfastSausages+Oct 21 2003, 05:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BreakfastSausages @ Oct 21 2003, 05:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see how ns:c can _solve_ the problem of small games in normal ns. It may entice people away from playing small games and as a result downplay or hide the problem.
I suppose I am the one who brought this thread back from the dead but so what?
The res model is exactly the same as it was when this thread started. In fact it is perhaps more relelvant now when it was started because the problems have been proven to persist and negatively affect the game long term. Also there is a new patch in development as we speak, so what better time to bring up important issues?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's the best Flay & co can come up with without making changes that could harm the upper levels of play. It's a good compromise and its a very welcome mode since I often find myself playing 4v4 these days. With 6v6 as a clan standard it is no wonder NS is set at 12 player minimum when 2.1 comes out. There aren't any games like this where the number of players matter so much. And if you ever played 3v3 you should realise how bad the resource model can get. 5 minute onos is not good.
It's doubtful Forlorn's res model will ever be implemented. Seems Flayra is intent on a speeding marines instead (cheaper everything). I'd rather go with a slower pace tho.
Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
I don't think it is necessary (or even possible) to make the game balanced at every team size. Picking the most common size, and making it the most balanced for that size is a much better expenditure of effort than trying to accomodate 2v2 or 16v16 (or whatever the max is). Not that I think anything in specific you said was false, but a LOT of time could be spent inventing extravagent mechanisms to "balance" out exotic corner cases for not much gain.
The game is very balanced, the idea of Marines is to play as a team, when you do that the marines are unstopable, when you have 3 people following orders and the rest begging, then you have problems <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shared res would indeed mean more fades coming in, all at the same time, most likely 1 min later. This is a good thing, I do believe. Fades coming too early is a huge problem right now. This is why fade cost is being upped to 60.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference of one minute isn't enough for an arms lab upgrade, or a armoury upgrade... Really there should be a fairly set 'window' when fades show up that allow the marines to stand a chance, while not forcing them to pick one strat and benefit/suffer the consequences.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why wouldn't making the arms lab cost dynamic values adress the problem? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, some others have mentioned balance issues and I can see those myself..
I was thinking of a static amount of additional benefit split between current members of the team, with more levels on the arms lab for larger games, so if the first armour upgrade increases everyone by 20 now (not sure of the numbers off the top of my head) and a 'typical' game is 6v6 then that upgrade gives 120 armour points, in 3 on 3 games, the value is increased signifiicantly, in larger games there is a reduction and additional upgrades must be purchased to get it in line. If players leave, the armour is recalculated by the arms lab at the push of a button. So in a 3v 3 game armour goes up by 40 a person. 3 new people join, none of them have the armour upgrade, most comms would want to equal their team out and click the adjust armour button. Same thought as a 6v6 game where 3 people leave the marine side.
This would also promote some players potentially having better damage and armour further alllowing a comm to specialize his team and give those guys the hmg etc.
But I know there are balance issues with this idea as well. That's the thing about making these sorts of suggestions, they are nice and they are fun and creative too. But no-one knows how they would play in game until they are implemented and tested.
<!--QuoteBegin--ZERG!!+Oct 21 2003, 06:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Oct 21 2003, 06:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's the best Flay & co can come up with without making changes that could harm the upper levels of play. It's a good compromise and its a very welcome mode since I often find myself playing 4v4 these days. With 6v6 as a clan standard it is no wonder NS is set at 12 player minimum when 2.1 comes out. There aren't any games like this where the number of players matter so much. And if you ever played 3v3 you should realise how bad the resource model can get. 5 minute onos is not good. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually right now aliens get shafted in small games hardcore. All you have to do is abuse one strat and they will never stand a chance at beating the marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was thinking of a static amount of additional benefit split between current members of the team, with more levels on the arms lab for larger games, so if the first armour upgrade increases everyone by 20 now (not sure of the numbers off the top of my head) and a 'typical' game is 6v6 then that upgrade gives 120 armour points, in 3 on 3 games, the value is increased signifiicantly, in larger games there is a reduction and additional upgrades must be purchased to get it in line. If players leave, the armour is recalculated by the arms lab at the push of a button. So in a 3v 3 game armour goes up by 40 a person. 3 new people join, none of them have the armour upgrade, most comms would want to equal their team out and click the adjust armour button. Same thought as a 6v6 game where 3 people leave the marine side. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a terrible suggestion. Splitting up armor points would make invincible marines in the small game (not fun) and worthless upgrades in the large game. You would just make the oppisite problem of what there is now; instead of upgrades being not entirely worth it right now on the small team, they will become the best, and getting entire upgrades for your team becomes stupid on large games, and individual upgrades become more useful.
My suggestion would make the upgrades useful at all points of the game and would cut down on the large game of having marines own. Ever see a 12 v 12 or above? Marines tend to win more often then not, simply because their firepower stacks and their upgrades are too cheap for it's effectiveness.
Personally, I love small games (1v1, 2v2, 3v3) and find I have about the same chance of winning as either side (around 70% win ratio in these small games). I'll certainly be willing to try out NS: Combat when it comes out, but I hope it doesn't prevent me from playing normal games with fewer players, because they can be quite fun.
The main problem I see with NS right now is one thing. Fades. Fades are almost invincible unless played by a complete idiot who dosen't know what Blink does. The major problems with fades are: 1) Too much life. The fade has enough life to withstand an onslaught from a whole team of marines, kill 2 or 3 of them, and make it out alive. It's not cool when a whole team with HMGs can't kill one alien before it rips them a new one.
2) Too fast. Think of this scenario for a second. You and 2 other marines are sent to defend a phase gate. Then, a fade jumps you, kills one marine, blinks away, cloaks and comes back to get you, and then your squadmate. Now, unless the fade was a total moron, you probably didn't hit him at all the whole time, and if you did, you didn't hurt him enough to cause any significant harm.
3) When paired with Alien evolve upgrades, Fades are pretty much invincible. Fade+Cloak+Regen+Silence=What just killed all those rines I just gave HMGs to, darnit?
4) Do not cost enough resources Aliens can get a fade LONG before marines can get anything that can even scratch it. Aliens usually get a fade early in the game, and once they do get it, rines don't have a chance in hell unless they have a train of HA/HMG
Solutions 1) Lower fade life. The damage a fade deals is fine, but they have too much defense. The fade should be a "glass cannon" not the alien version of Rambo. Lowering the fade life to 90 or even 100 would greatly help the balance of the class. That way, they would be more like they should be, Assassians. They would be able to take down solo marines and maybe some groups of 2, but they wouldn't be able to solo 5 HAs with HMGs without even getting hit like they can now.
2) Put a "combat timer" on blink Right now, a fade can blink, kill, and blink away in about a second. I think there should be a combat timer on blink, meaning that you could not attack right after Blink, but would be able to again a reasonable amount of time afterwards (2 seconds?) This would give marines a chance to kill the fade before it wipes out their whole team....
Shotgun is available way before aliens reach the res for fades.
5 mines > Fade.
Mines are available way before aliens reach the res for fades.
K. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with rennex, fade's aren't really too strong.
Lv. 3 shotgun practically kills a regen fade in one hit. It deals 220 dmg. Factor in armor and the fade needs to be at 200 dmg for a one hit kill. I've been killed so many times by the one shot lv. 3 shotgun, it is very annoying, but I respect that you must use different methods to kill shotgunners.
And mines are a logical counter to fades, and should always stay in the game. You just need your friendly skulk to sucide on the mines, and the path is clear.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 23 2003, 12:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 23 2003, 12:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Factor in armor and the fade needs to be at 200 dmg for a one hit kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 154. Taking armor into account, an uncarapaced Fade's health must be less than or equal to 154 for it to die from one level 3 shotgun round.
<!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Oct 23 2003, 12:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Oct 23 2003, 12:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 23 2003, 12:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 23 2003, 12:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Factor in armor and the fade needs to be at 200 dmg for a one hit kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 154. Taking armor into account, an uncarapaced Fade's health must be less than or equal to 154 for it to die from one level 3 shotgun round.
220*.7 = 154 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm... this is odd, I've been killed by one shot at 200 hp before. I've seen it happen. Lag? Several shotgunners shooting at the same time?
Comments
As it stands now, the marines are having a problem because 'leetness in skulk form is eating them and will be evolving soon, due to RFK, right? However, since he's the only one getting the RFK, if you can avoid him and get around, you stand a good chance of doing some damage elsewhere. If we spread the RFK out, suddenly the guys in the back lines, the non-'leets, the gorges, etc, have a lot more res to build up static defense. Now, not only do the marines have to deal with uber-skulk at their base, they also have a lot harder time getting away from the base and away from the leetness. In addition, those static defenses are bringing in even *more* res to the team, including our uber-fellow, as the WoLs and carefully placed OCs whittle down any type of expansion force. By distributing RFKs, aliens actually wind up in a better position than they do currently.
Now, let's look at the armory.. it has more effect in larger games than smaller ones, this is true. This is also something for a good commander to be aware of. Of course larger games also mean larger alien teams, which mean that the marines actually need those widespread benefits more, simply because a commander is only one person, and the effort of micromanagement goes up almost exponentially as the number of people go up.
Also, larger alien teams mean more aliens available for early rushes.. which means you need those upgrade sooner. Increasing the cost of it as the team sizes go up serves only to doom the marines, as repeated waves of skulks hit the base, and if each skulk manages to cut down only one marine before dying, then he's set to get an upgrade and perhaps be able to take out two next time. This means that by the time your increased research cost can be afforded, aliens have already fully upgraded themselves and are considering going lerk/fade, and an early lerk near marine base is *bad news*, especially when marines are busy trying to save for upgrades so aren't able to be handing out the HA and GLs willy nilly. (All this is assuming the RFK isn't distributed. If it is, they've also got second hive up.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
To your first point:
Incorrect.
First off, you cannot avoid fights with skulks as marines. Aliens are the ones who determine most fights in general. A skulk can always attack marines, or defend structures from marines. Marines cannot always attack skulks or 'avoid' them. The skulks are twice as fast as marines and are able to crawl through vents that give them huge speed advantages over marines. A good skulk will always pick his fights carefully so that he has a good shot at winning, and will not be 'avoided'. Second, gorges that get an extra 2-3 res from the skulks at the front line doesn't really mean more static defenses. Gorges that get an extra 2-3 res(remember, if one gorge got 2-3 res from a skulk on the front lines, this means providing the teams were equal then that means <b> marine team died twice.</b> :/ Please, don't say it will be easy to horde res for the entire team.) will get that 2-3 extra res because it helps to speed up the game. Remember, the R4K was done not to define the entire alien team, it was done to help speed up the game. R4K as it stands is just about everything for the alien team; if a gorge wants a lot of res he is usually better of going skulk and killing things. If you don't believe me on this then I must say you haven't been playing the game, everyone knows a skulk gets res <b>much</b> faster than a gorge right now. I believe that the skulk should get more res than the gorge, but not that much more res where the gorge might be close to getting a second hive by the time the skulk can go onos.
It might be a valid criticism to state that the aliens might be too nerfed by my system, but to say it would overpower them is pure ludicris. Instead of having on a 6 man team, one alien with 100 res and everyone else around 20-40, you would have one alien with 70-80 res, and everyone else around 40-50. All my system does is help to close the gap that I see so often in just about every alien game.
To your next point:
To say the imbalance on larger games should be left in because the comm will have a harder time of micro'ing isn't a very good reason at all, because when a good comm does come around, he will fully exploit the imbalance as it is given to him.
To say that more aliens = more dead marines from fast base rushes is illogical. Good marines in large numbers (esp. on pub servers where usually alien coordination is lacking) will chew up skulks providing they have enough aim to beat single player Half Life retail (Hint: It's not hard).
However, I'm not going to lie here, there will be the good skulk that will get a good share of kills on larger servers, and this uber skulk will be grabbing an extra hive or going onos in record time. Again, if my R4K system were put in for aliens, you wouldn't see this happen unless the marine team totally sucked and had a ton of spawn portals to feed the aliens.
I agree with you that if just my arms lab suggestion was taken and my R4K for aliens was not there would be further imbalance within the game, however, if you take both my suggestions then there would be balance. Or at least I would hope. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Seriously though, it feels like you didn't read my main post at all, judging by the way you think I distributed res on the alien team it seems like you thought I said when one alien gets a kill of 3 res, all aliens get 3 res... :/
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Increasing res distribution is only good for general pub games where you have difference in opinion on how it should be spent. So any discussion about REDISTRIBUTION OF RES is completely irrelevant. FORGET IT.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So balancing out the game in theory will only be good for pub games? Dude, it slows down alien games ENTIRELY. READ MY FIRST POST THX! This has nothign to do with "difference of oppinions". It completely slows down the entire alien economy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dynamic upgrade costs? Only necessary if you are going to do it to both sides. FORGET IT.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm... it is being done to both sides. Right now, with larger teams, aliens get res slower so they can't get hives faster and upgrade their entire team faster. However, it's completely screwed by res for kills, which completely ignores that fact that aliens should be getting res slower on larger games games in the first place! I mean, look at the entire alien economy; they get res slower larger games, but res for kills comes right along and <b>negates the entire principle</b>, resulting in insta-tech!
Now, if the alien economy was nerfed appropiratly along the lines of what I said, the it follows the arms lab must be also. They provide upgrades which grow more and more effective as the games get larger. If the upgrades are to be in balance, then they must grow more expensive in proportion.
2:36 now, Spectre again. By the way, this means 3:d hive should be started at 6 minutes (if not sooner). Meaning that Marines are forced to lock it down, which means spending res.. which is still an excercise in futility since whatever they build can be taken down by a gorge and whatever they tech can be eaten by the onos that will show up ~10 mins into the game.
So Marines now either have to lock down two hives in 3 minutes or take one down. Which means shotgun rush. Which is easily beaten by as little as 5 aliens working together (1 lerk, 2 gorges and 2 skulks = spores + healspray*2 + bites = dead Marine team).
Yada yada, etc etc.
2:36 now, Spectre again. By the way, this means 3:d hive should be started at 6 minutes (if not sooner). Meaning that Marines are forced to lock it down, which means spending res.. which is still an excercise in futility since whatever they build can be taken down by a gorge and whatever they tech can be eaten by the onos that will show up ~10 mins into the game.
So Marines now either have to lock down two hives in 3 minutes or take one down. Which means shotgun rush. Which is easily beaten by as little as 5 aliens working together (1 lerk, 2 gorges and 2 skulks = spores + healspray*2 + bites = dead Marine team).
Yada yada, etc etc. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How fast the hives go up further exemplifies my point of unbalanced R4K.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=50872' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=5&t=50872</a>
I think the only difference between us is I was suggesting rfk be completely evenly shared because it will help make alien role specialization more viable (instead of just skulk skulk ogogog!!!111one which is the current alien gameplay situation).
I think if EITHER of these ideas were implemented they would bring a relatively huge benefit in gameplay fun with a very small amount of coding effort. I really hope the developers will try something like this out! Just put it in and test it in the beta or something, I don't see how coding my system would take more than about 15 minutes, and maybe 20 for forlorn's.
marine res collection - oranges
apples compare to oranges?
Onos 3rd hive ability: Charge
Problem: Brilliant in 1.04, then it was battered by the nerf stick. Rarely used ever in 2.01, unless an Onos needs to flee from the heat of battle very quickly. Charge did huge amounts of damage to marines and enemy structures in 1.04, It was possible to knock down fleeing marines in a second or two upon contact. Now its hugely successfull first and second hive abilities render it pretty much unused. This is a third hive ability here! Surely it makes sense for it to be much more powerfull than the 2nd hive abilities, and would really make a difference to end those tediously stretched out games where the beaten enemy refuse to admit defeat.
How to fix it: Bring it back, 1.04 style. <i>Devastating</i>, just like a third hive ability should be.
Gorge 3rd hive ability: Web
Problem: A great weapon, but given at the wrong time. Web is a defensive weapon, used to slow down the enemy, and protect important locations on the map. When aliens get all three hives, and you finally get web, the game quickly turns into Alien Assault mode, and Oni and Fades close in for the killing spree.
How to fix: I'd like to see the results of swapping weapon slot places with Bilebomb, a devastating weapon when used correctly, it can damage a structure faster than a marine can weld it! Webs could then be used to protect middle/late game resource nodes and vital map locations earlier on in the game.
I'm pretty content with the rest of the third hive abilities. Lerk primal scream is pretty much perfect where it is, and Fade acid rocket could be more potent with a larger splash damage radius, but worthy of a third hive ability position all the same.
I wont go into details but I havent yet reached a verdict on Skulk xenocide yet.
edit: Wait a second..I could post this is in the Suggestions and ideas forum too.
I think this is the crucial point where you are misled.
Yes, with larger teams, Aliens get res slower and their entire economy is slowed down...and yes, RFK helps reduce this effect. But <i>that</i> is <i>exactly</i> the point of adding RFK to the game in the first place! Where do you get the idea that the Alien economy <i>should</i> be slowed down in larger games? The Marine economy continues moving along at exactly the same rate, regardless of the number of people. Why should the Aliens have to tech slower simply because there are more of them?
This would reduce the destabilizing effect of early-game RFK. Since there are fewer RTs in play, RFK would be similarly scaled down.
This would also discourage people from relying on RFK for evolutions, since RFK income would be negligible with no RTs.
marine res collection - oranges
apples compare to oranges? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is wrong.
#1. You can compare apples to oranges, I'm sure a scientist has already done it
#2. Both the marines and aliens eat apples, but one eats the apples with their hands and the other with their feet.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, with larger teams, Aliens get res slower and their entire economy is slowed down...and yes, RFK helps reduce this effect. But that is exactly the point of adding RFK to the game in the first place! Where do you get the idea that the Alien economy should be slowed down in larger games? The Marine economy continues moving along at exactly the same rate, regardless of the number of people. Why should the Aliens have to tech slower simply because there are more of them? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep in mind I made this post during 2.0. Flay has already done a lot to solve imbalances regarding to how fast each side can tech up, but back in 2.0 aliens had a huge advantage in that their economy was so fast due to res for kills in large games, whereas marines had to pay an arm and a leg for everything.
Flay's approch was to speed up the marine economy, mine was to slow down the aliens. Mine would have resulting in more careful, slower paced games (but not by much), Flay's has resulted in what you see today. Both could have been used to fix the economy imbalances, but Flay choose to go along the path of speeding up marines. I still think today that slowing down aliens would have possibly been better. But who knows now.
Also, this imbalance of getting res too fast for aliens still exist; notice how fades own up clan games right now. Part of this reason is due to R4K futher speeding up alien tech. Fades can come in at 2:40 on average at clan games with r4K + nodes. Notice how fades are currently up to 60, an effort made by Flay to futher slow down the alien game. Perhaps still my R4K nerf could still be used. *Shrugs* Who knows. Perma gorging would be a lot more valauble to the team, as some of your kills would be sent to the gorges as tax. Everyone has to make payments to the fat man sooner or later.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah... and if you were playing, say, Starcraft, (you heard of that game right?) and you are, say, playing the Terrans, would you win if you produced more upgraded marines than your opponent produced (lets say the Zerg) it's own uprgraded units? That's the point he's getting at, your number of units is sometimes limited by the number of players on the server, and this impedes you, unless you are on a larger game, then you have a lot of cheap, powerful units clustered in one or two small bases. That's probably not explaining it very well, but do you see how NS differs from a regular RTS in this way? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad someone could understand the arms lab imbalance; I thought it was quite clear that in traditional RTS's, upgrades for units were static as the amount of units you had were dynamic, whereas in an FPS/RTS the amount of units you have are static, therefore the upgrades must be dynamic. I thought it was quite amazing in how little to none understood such a simple concept.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the only difference between us is I was suggesting rfk be completely evenly shared because it will help make alien role specialization more viable (instead of just skulk skulk ogogog!!!111one which is the current alien gameplay situation).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason I like my idea more over yours is because my idea still rewards the skulk who made the kills. I think on pub play the balance is important to give the most skilled person (the dude getting most of the kills) the option to spend their res first, such as fade or a hive or upgrades or whatever. It's also more unique to reward the individual and fits in better with alien type of gameplay.
So is spam.
Anyhow, is this necromancy? This topic is two months old, and it's still a fairly relevent topic...
Damn man i see this means absolutely nothing to ya.
Damn man i see this means absolutely nothing to ya. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, is this topic off-topic or any less relevent to overall balance of NS now because of the topic's date?
I think that shared res is interesting but would simply lead to more fades coming in bunches slightly later (like 1-2 min)
And I think there should be something done to the Arms lab... I don't know if your solution addresses it, but I agree that in small games the arms lab is less important than outfitting 3 marines with shotguns, and in large games the overal benefit far outweighs the cost.
I don't have a good solution but perhaps one of the many out there will...
Side Note, I'm glad this was brought back, I missed it the first time round and it's a great topic..
I think that shared res is interesting but would simply lead to more fades coming in bunches slightly later (like 1-2 min)
And I think there should be something done to the Arms lab... I don't know if your solution addresses it, but I agree that in small games the arms lab is less important than outfitting 3 marines with shotguns, and in large games the overal benefit far outweighs the cost.
I don't have a good solution but perhaps one of the many out there will...
Side Note, I'm glad this was brought back, I missed it the first time round and it's a great topic.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I too think NS:C will solve the problem of the small game, thank god, and in a much more interesting way than my orignal idea.
Shared res would indeed mean more fades coming in, all at the same time, most likely 1 min later. This is a good thing, I do believe. Fades coming too early is a huge problem right now. This is why fade cost is being upped to 60.
Why wouldn't making the arms lab cost dynamic values adress the problem?
And I'm glad you enjoy this topic...
I suppose I am the one who brought this thread back from the dead but so what?
The res model is exactly the same as it was when this thread started. In fact it is perhaps more relelvant now when it was started because the problems have been proven to persist and negatively affect the game long term. Also there is a new patch in development as we speak, so what better time to bring up important issues?
I suppose I am the one who brought this thread back from the dead but so what?
The res model is exactly the same as it was when this thread started. In fact it is perhaps more relelvant now when it was started because the problems have been proven to persist and negatively affect the game long term. Also there is a new patch in development as we speak, so what better time to bring up important issues?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's the best Flay & co can come up with without making changes that could harm the upper levels of play. It's a good compromise and its a very welcome mode since I often find myself playing 4v4 these days. With 6v6 as a clan standard it is no wonder NS is set at 12 player minimum when 2.1 comes out. There aren't any games like this where the number of players matter so much. And if you ever played 3v3 you should realise how bad the resource model can get. 5 minute onos is not good.
It's doubtful Forlorn's res model will ever be implemented. Seems Flayra is intent on a speeding marines instead (cheaper everything). I'd rather go with a slower pace tho.
The difference of one minute isn't enough for an arms lab upgrade, or a armoury upgrade... Really there should be a fairly set 'window' when fades show up that allow the marines to stand a chance, while not forcing them to pick one strat and benefit/suffer the consequences.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Why wouldn't making the arms lab cost dynamic values adress the problem?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, some others have mentioned balance issues and I can see those myself..
I was thinking of a static amount of additional benefit split between current members of the team, with more levels on the arms lab for larger games, so if the first armour upgrade increases everyone by 20 now (not sure of the numbers off the top of my head) and a 'typical' game is 6v6 then that upgrade gives 120 armour points, in 3 on 3 games, the value is increased signifiicantly, in larger games there is a reduction and additional upgrades must be purchased to get it in line. If players leave, the armour is recalculated by the arms lab at the push of a button.
So in a 3v 3 game armour goes up by 40 a person. 3 new people join, none of them have the armour upgrade, most comms would want to equal their team out and click the adjust armour button. Same thought as a 6v6 game where 3 people leave the marine side.
This would also promote some players potentially having better damage and armour further alllowing a comm to specialize his team and give those guys the hmg etc.
But I know there are balance issues with this idea as well. That's the thing about making these sorts of suggestions, they are nice and they are fun and creative too. But no-one knows how they would play in game until they are implemented and tested.
Thanks for the reply.
Z
Actually right now aliens get shafted in small games hardcore. All you have to do is abuse one strat and they will never stand a chance at beating the marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was thinking of a static amount of additional benefit split between current members of the team, with more levels on the arms lab for larger games, so if the first armour upgrade increases everyone by 20 now (not sure of the numbers off the top of my head) and a 'typical' game is 6v6 then that upgrade gives 120 armour points, in 3 on 3 games, the value is increased signifiicantly, in larger games there is a reduction and additional upgrades must be purchased to get it in line. If players leave, the armour is recalculated by the arms lab at the push of a button.
So in a 3v 3 game armour goes up by 40 a person. 3 new people join, none of them have the armour upgrade, most comms would want to equal their team out and click the adjust armour button. Same thought as a 6v6 game where 3 people leave the marine side.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a terrible suggestion. Splitting up armor points would make invincible marines in the small game (not fun) and worthless upgrades in the large game. You would just make the oppisite problem of what there is now; instead of upgrades being not entirely worth it right now on the small team, they will become the best, and getting entire upgrades for your team becomes stupid on large games, and individual upgrades become more useful.
My suggestion would make the upgrades useful at all points of the game and would cut down on the large game of having marines own. Ever see a 12 v 12 or above? Marines tend to win more often then not, simply because their firepower stacks and their upgrades are too cheap for it's effectiveness.
Fades are almost invincible unless played by a complete idiot who dosen't know what Blink does.
The major problems with fades are:
1) Too much life.
The fade has enough life to withstand an onslaught from a whole team of marines, kill 2 or 3 of them, and make it out alive. It's not cool when a whole team with HMGs can't kill one alien before it rips them a new one.
2) Too fast.
Think of this scenario for a second.
You and 2 other marines are sent to defend a phase gate. Then, a fade jumps you, kills one marine, blinks away, cloaks and comes back to get you, and then your squadmate.
Now, unless the fade was a total moron, you probably didn't hit him at all the whole time, and if you did, you didn't hurt him enough to cause any significant harm.
3) When paired with Alien evolve upgrades, Fades are pretty much invincible.
Fade+Cloak+Regen+Silence=What just killed all those rines I just gave HMGs to, darnit?
4) Do not cost enough resources
Aliens can get a fade LONG before marines can get anything that can even scratch it. Aliens usually get a fade early in the game, and once they do get it, rines don't have a chance in hell unless they have a train of HA/HMG
Solutions
1) Lower fade life.
The damage a fade deals is fine, but they have too much defense.
The fade should be a "glass cannon" not the alien version of Rambo. Lowering the fade life to 90 or even 100 would greatly help the balance of the class.
That way, they would be more like they should be, Assassians. They would be able to take down solo marines and maybe some groups of 2, but they wouldn't be able to solo 5 HAs with HMGs without even getting hit like they can now.
2) Put a "combat timer" on blink
Right now, a fade can blink, kill, and blink away in about a second.
I think there should be a combat timer on blink, meaning that you could not attack right after Blink, but would be able to again a reasonable amount of time afterwards (2 seconds?)
This would give marines a chance to kill the fade before it wipes out their whole team....
I think ns:c is a cool Idea, I am very much looking forward to playing it and I fully expect that it will be a ton of fun.
I just wanted to point out that ns:c does not actually solve any balance issues in classic ns, it is an entirely separate game really.
Shotgun is available way before aliens reach the res for fades.
5 mines > Fade.
Mines are available way before aliens reach the res for fades.
K.
Shotgun is available way before aliens reach the res for fades.
5 mines > Fade.
Mines are available way before aliens reach the res for fades.
K. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with rennex, fade's aren't really too strong.
Lv. 3 shotgun practically kills a regen fade in one hit. It deals 220 dmg. Factor in armor and the fade needs to be at 200 dmg for a one hit kill. I've been killed so many times by the one shot lv. 3 shotgun, it is very annoying, but I respect that you must use different methods to kill shotgunners.
And mines are a logical counter to fades, and should always stay in the game. You just need your friendly skulk to sucide on the mines, and the path is clear.
154. Taking armor into account, an uncarapaced Fade's health must be less than or equal to 154 for it to die from one level 3 shotgun round.
220*.7 = 154
154. Taking armor into account, an uncarapaced Fade's health must be less than or equal to 154 for it to die from one level 3 shotgun round.
220*.7 = 154 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm... this is odd, I've been killed by one shot at 200 hp before. I've seen it happen. Lag? Several shotgunners shooting at the same time?