<!--QuoteBegin---spidermonkey-+Oct 24 2003, 11:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-spidermonkey- @ Oct 24 2003, 11:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont believe in god, the afterlife, the devil, nothing really because
<ul> <li>man created these stories to make himself feel more important <li>man cannot stand the fact that we dont know the meaning of this life <li>we are scared of dying, and scared of what awaits us after death <li>man has an over-active imagination <li>man wants to seem more important than the animals, whilst there isnt much which seperates us from them <li>evolution is the key theory, we have not always been homospaien, our species has only been present for ~3.5 billion years, if the whole universe's existance is one day, man appeared 2 seconds before midnight (best video btw) </ul> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You make lots of broad sweeoping generalisations, yet fail to back any of them up with any sort of evidence whatsoever. Please? Evidence?
I believe that the concept of Purgatory is an integral part of the afterlife. While it's a one-way road to Heaven, it is properly located in the realm of Hell.
Here's a Protestant-compatible article I found interesting:
<a href='http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0204/articles/walls.html' target='_blank'>Purgatory for Everyone</a>
:edit: i dont think this is irrelevant at all, im simply stating the reasons why people make up these concepts like heaven and hell. I have some 'evidence' in this post, but if you're not interest, just ignore it and live in your own blissfull existance.
When you consider the immense size of the universe, that is ever expanding, you begin to wonder why human kind thinks so highly of itself.
More about evolution and such: billions of years ago humans evolved from apes through random mutations, different selective pressures changed genetic frequency as the homonids began to occupy seperate niches from the apes and other primates. The homonids walked upright, this created a favourable adaptation because of environmental change in africa. Africa became more desolate with plains whilst some forests degraded (natural climatic change). The upright movement conserved energy and created a perspecitve advantage. Now, two prodominant species of homonids evolved, homo sapien and neanderthal man. The main difference of the two is 'imagination', yes thats right, neanderthal man had no imagination, and hence due to homosapiens and neanderthals occupying similar niches, homosapiens won the struggle for existance and hence displaced neanderthal man. This 'imagination' is what helps us survive, we can think of new ways to stay warm, to stay safe, to prevent disease etc. this is a huge advantage, and its what distinguishes us from the animals. Yet this is just an evolutionary adaptation that distinguishes every living species from another due to different adaptations, its the reason different animals occupy different niches, and that two animals cannot simultaneously do this. This imagination evolution is what is responsible for our questioning and hopeless attempts to define our existance.
Man's sense of fear also contributes to the 'over imagination', it is a natural instinct, whilst when combined with our imagination powers conjures up these theories, because we just dont know, rather than accepting the fact that real knowledge is knowing we know nothing, we create elaborate stories to explain these things, because our consciousness is too real, our sense of free will is too strong to not question these things.
As you can see my arguements are very Darwin influenced. The 'theory' of evolution's evidence comes from fossilisation, DNA amino acid comparison and embryology. Evolution cannot explain some things, but there is a large amount of scientific evidence to back it up. Keep in mind religions are all theories too, only reason certain aspects are believed is that there is no scientific evidence to validate this. Scientifically, we cannot prove god or hell or heaven, that is why the theory persists, no one can give evidence on this, it is beyond our capacities. Your need for evidence i find surprising as religion offers surprisingly little of that.
<!--QuoteBegin--Fire Eel+Oct 24 2003, 06:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fire Eel @ Oct 24 2003, 06:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I agree about evolution and such.
Anyway, wasn't the two main types of humans the Netherland and the Cro Magnons?!
We are Cro Magnons right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yes, the first modern homosapiens are sometimes referred to as cro magnons.
Plz, bringing evolution into a decidedly theological discussion is now heavily frowned upon by the powers that be.
That said, you cant knock people for having lack of evidence when it comes to faith. What greater evidence do people need then what they percieve to be a very vivid and personal relationship with God? Its incredibly real to them, and when you tell them there God doesnt exist/is proven not to exist, they'll never believe you.
I'm now starting to get the idea that perhaps there IS ranked punishment....
It is never ever mentioned anywhere at all in the bible. Heaven and hell are talked about, purgatory is not.
Jesus said "I am the Way. No man comes to the Father except through me" ie, you either get into heaven by believeing in me, or you dont get there at all.
Purgatory is just another man-made invention designed for some crazy reason. It has no grounding in faith or evidence
If there is a hell, it would have to be something personally created by your mind. Some people enjoy pain for example, therefore hell must be something like a commulation of your fears and thoughts, trapping you in a prison of sort. I still do not think there necessarily is an afterlife, i think its just the fact that people find the conept of 'nothingness' hard to understand. What if there is *nothing* after you die, can you imagine it?? See, its much easier to imagine a devil poking you with a pitchfork, ahh such cliches.
I apologise for bringing up evolution, i had no idea it was so frowned upon....<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> But after all this is <i> natural selection </i> and thats what the idea of evolution is based on <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
there is nothing wrong with bringing up evolution, just dont do it in this thread. One of the main rules is to keep topics on-topic
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I still do not think there necessarily is an afterlife, i think its just the fact that people find the conept of 'nothingness' hard to understand. What if there is *nothing* after you die, can you imagine it?? See, its much easier to imagine a devil poking you with a pitchfork, ahh such cliches<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
on the contrary, it may be easier to think about it, but it is certainly nicer to think about nothingness than eternal torment
[edit] <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind." H.L. Menken<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because that statement cannot be handled, felt and is not tangible, does that mean we should not believe in it as well? It contradicts itself. It is a statement telling you not to believe in it. [/edit]
I think our mind is too much of a busy place to think about nothing. We have our conscious workings, and uncounscious. Even when we sleep our brain is still working, this is why i think people cannot imagine, say what existed before the big bang (or whatever theory of creationism you want to believe in).
As for the quote, i dont think it is contradictory at all. It simply means people preoccupy themselves in things that deep down they <i>know</i> are not true, but <i>want</i> to believe in them so badly that truth comes them.
I think it is impossible to think of nothing, not because we are too busy, but because there is no nothing. there is always something.
As for the statement, on the surface, it appears fine, but it is talking about epistemology and the belief that the only things that are true or false are those that can be verified by science. Like the verification principle, it falls into its own trap. Because the statement itself cannot be verified, or in this case, touched, it isefl is meanigless, or, in your case, wrong. By saying that statement, i would imagine that H.L. Menken believed it was true. but because it itself is not tangible, it cannot be true, it contradicts itself
This is another one of his quotes which illustrates the point perhaps a bit clearer.
The other quote is not talking about statements or observations being true or false, it is talking about (i believe) humankind's overactive mind, and the ability to create these concepts (like hell), and turn them into fact. This statement has evidence, people have believed for thousands of years, the false until they are disproven.
Boggle, you say satan is like a bully - making people suffer for his insecuritys. If god truly loved man, would he not try to save the people who were destined for hell?
Why can god not defeat satan?
Doesn't the fact that god lets billions of people burn for eternity when he could save them go against the key principals of christianity?
<i>edit: Spiders quote makes perfect sense, your "logic" trying to explain why it doesnt make sense, doesnt make sense! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--></i>
<!--QuoteBegin---spidermonkey-+Oct 24 2003, 04:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-spidermonkey- @ Oct 24 2003, 04:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"People will believe what they want to believe."
This is another one of his quotes which illustrates the point perhaps a bit clearer. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but technically it is not saying the same thing
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The other quote is not talking about statements or observations being true or false, it is talking about (i believe) humankind's overactive mind, and the ability to create these concepts (like hell), and turn them into fact. This statement has evidence, people have believed for thousands of years, the false until they are disproven.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The statement is saying that it is stupid to believe in things that are intangible. I think we wouls all agree that an idea or concept(such as heaven) is intangible. He has just commited a fallacy. He has said that it is stupid to turn ideas into facts <i>and yet that is exactly what he has done.</i> He has taken the idea of believeing in intangible things and <i>turned it into a fact</i>, i.e. his statement "The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind."
<!--QuoteBegin--Mercior+Oct 24 2003, 04:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mercior @ Oct 24 2003, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Boggle, you say satan is like a bully - making people suffer for his insecuritys. If god truly loved man, would he not try to save the people who were destined for hell? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> God has saved the people. it happend 2000 years ago when a bloke named Jesus lived a perfectly sinfless life and was then punished for it
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why can god not defeat satan?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God has defeated satan. His actions now are merely his death-throws
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Doesn't the fact that god lets billions of people burn for eternity when he could save them go against the key principals of christianity?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no. He has saved them. all they need to do is aknowledge that fact
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <i>edit: Spiders quote makes perfect sense, your "logic" trying to explain why it doesnt make sense, doesnt make sense! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--></i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the quote makes sense, it just contradicts itself. It is saying it is folly to believe in something that is not tangible. The statement is not tangible, therefore it is folly to believe it. How does that not make sense?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God has saved the people. it happend 2000 years ago when a bloke named Jesus lived a perfectly sinfless life and was then punished for it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Excuse my lack of biblical knowledge... what exactly did god do here to save us? Also, is it not a sin to kill living creatures? (Which would mean jesus did not lead a sinless life...)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God has defeated satan. His actions now are merely his death-throws<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If satan still exists then he has not been defeated
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->no. He has saved them. all they need to do is aknowledge that fact<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If there are billions upon billions of people burning in hell, that doesn't sound like they have been "saved" to me. Are you saying that while we're burning forever, we can just say "im sorry god, you were right" and we'll be whisked off to heaven? Given that god created man, is all powerful, and unconditionally loves us, why would he allow satan to take us and torture us for ever ?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, the quote makes sense, it just contradicts itself. It is saying it is folly to believe in something that is not tangible. The statement is not tangible, therefore it is folly to believe it. How does that not make sense?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The quote says that our greatest downfall is the stupid habit of beleiving in things that are obviously not true (religion). Where we differ here is that I agree religion is clearly a stupid concept, and you don't. We won't come to an agreement on this <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Mercior+Oct 24 2003, 05:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mercior @ Oct 24 2003, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God has saved the people. it happend 2000 years ago when a bloke named Jesus lived a perfectly sinfless life and was then punished for it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Excuse my lack of biblical knowledge... what exactly did god do here to save us? Also, is it not a sin to kill living creatures? (Which would mean jesus did not lead a sinless life...) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By sending Jesus to live as a man for 33 years with a perfectly sinless life, then having him crucified with the sin of everybody who believes dumped on to him, then punished for it, we ar let off the hook and he is put on the hook, only, being God, he rose from the dead and is alive today in heaven, thereby defeating death and satan
It is a sin to kill humans, it is not a sin to kill animals, we have been given dominion
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If satan still exists then he has not been defeated<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you ever play Tiberian Sun? If you destroyed the enemy Construction Yard and their War factory, they were screwed. They needed a war factory to build a construction yard and they needed a construction yard to build a war factory. It is like that with Satan. He is going to die, the battle is already won, we are just mopping up the peices (so to speak)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If there are billions upon billions of people burning in hell, that doesn't sound like they have been "saved" to me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If someone tells you to turn right, and you go straight on and fall off a cliff, who's fault is it? you cant blame the guy who told you to turn right, thats for sure. God has told you what you need to do to be saved. The choice is now down to you. He has provided the way out of death, you have to take it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are you saying that while we're burning forever, we can just say "im sorry god, you were right" and we'll be whisked off to heaven? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you had your chance during life. "we die only once, then we are judged" After you die and are judged, your fate is sealed. You chose to live your life without God, you can live your death without him too. He will miss you, but thats your fault.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Given that god created man, is all powerful, and unconditionally loves us, why would he allow satan to take us and torture us for ever ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He has provided a way out. if you choose not to take his way out, he will be sad, but he wont try to stop you, he has given you free will.
Can i shake your hand? you are truly the most remarkable person i have ever met. Can you send me a large signed photo of yourself so i can stick it on my wall?
I shan't argue with your ridiculous analogies, you'll always be able to come up with more to "disprove" whatever I say to you.
There is still a problem here. Surely God is no better than satan if he willingly lets people who have chosen not to beleive in him (using the gift of free will that he gave them) suffer forever - why does he feel that anyone who chose not to beleive in him deserves to be tortured?
God is bullying people who didn't beleive in him by not saving them when he can. -Why can he not forgive them?
Also, given that Satan hates god, why does he make hell such a horiffic place? Why would he want to make people suffer? Specifically, why would he punish people who are against his only enemy (god)?
<!--QuoteBegin--Mercior+Oct 24 2003, 06:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mercior @ Oct 24 2003, 06:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I shan't argue with your ridiculous analogies, you'll always be able to come up with more to "disprove" whatever I say to you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then this discussion is effectively over. I have "won" (for want of a better word). You will put forward a point, I will argue against it with an anaogy, and you will refuse to produce a counter argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is still a problem here. Surely God is no better than satan if he willingly lets people who have chosen not to beleive in him (using the gift of free will that he gave them) suffer forever - why does he feel that anyone who chose not to beleive in him deserves to be tortured?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who are you to say that God is wrong? a flawed human being (like the rest of us) who cant even remember what he had for dinner last saturday is challenging the supremacy of the one perfect eternal being? God is not sinning in letting people go to hell because he has a morally sufficient reason for it. end of argument
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God is bullying people who didn't beleive in him by not saving them when he can. -Why can he not forgive them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He can. all they have to do is believe
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, given that Satan hates god, why does he make hell such a horiffic place? Why would he want to make people suffer? Specifically, why would he punish people who are against his only enemy (god)?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Satan hasnt created Hell. Do you think if he knew he was going to be there for eternity that he would make it how it is? Hell is where God is not, and that is by definition the worst place imaginable
What if we are in hell? We lived a sinful life in real earth and were cast down here in hell, unsure of gods existance and hoping to get in to heaven, only to born in an endless cycle to this awful place?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is still a problem here. Surely God is no better than satan if he willingly lets people who have chosen not to beleive in him (using the gift of free will that he gave them) suffer forever - why does he feel that anyone who chose not to beleive in him deserves to be tortured?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who are you to say that God is wrong? a flawed human being (like the rest of us) who cant even remember what he had for dinner last saturday is challenging the supremacy of the one perfect eternal being? God is not sinning in letting people go to hell because he has a morally sufficient reason for it. end of argument<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then by your logic it is morally ok to physically harm people who do not beleive in god?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God is bullying people who didn't beleive in him by not saving them when he can. -Why can he not forgive them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He can. all they have to do is believe<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesnt answer my question. Why can god not forgive people who do not beleive he exists? Why would he deliberately put us in a world with no evidence that he exists (think pre-biblical times), require us to come to the conclusion that he does by blind faith, and then damn those of us who think independantly to eternal torture?
As for satan, at times you speak of him as if he has the same powers as god, other times you speak of him as if he is a mortal. I don't know what to say...
<!--QuoteBegin--Mercior+Oct 24 2003, 06:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mercior @ Oct 24 2003, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is still a problem here. Surely God is no better than satan if he willingly lets people who have chosen not to beleive in him (using the gift of free will that he gave them) suffer forever - why does he feel that anyone who chose not to beleive in him deserves to be tortured? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who are you to say that God is wrong? a flawed human being (like the rest of us) who cant even remember what he had for dinner last saturday is challenging the supremacy of the one perfect eternal being? God is not sinning in letting people go to hell because he has a morally sufficient reason for it. end of argument <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then by your logic it is morally ok to physically harm people who do not beleive in god?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> no, because we are not God. If you create a beautiful pot, it would be perfectly fair and just for you to smash it wouldnt it? Nobody could stop you because it was your pot. Since we are God's creation, he has the right to whatever he wants with us, and nobody can even question that right
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God is bullying people who didn't beleive in him by not saving them when he can. -Why can he not forgive them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He can. all they have to do is believe<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesnt answer my question. Why can god not forgive people who do not beleive he exists? Why would he deliberately put us in a world with no evidence that he exists (think pre-biblical times), require us to come to the conclusion that he does by blind faith, and then damn those of us who think independantly to eternal torture?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God will not forgive people who dont believe in him because that would nt be fair, and if God is anything, he is fair. Imagine you have spent your whole life living, breathing and dying for God, only to have him say on judgement day "oh, stuff it, you are all in" how fair is that?
Because God is eternal, his salvation is eternal. There is no time when God's salvation did not exist, even before Jesus. The people had evidence. There were prophets proclaiming Gods message - Isiah, Ezekiel, Elijah, Moses, Jonah... the list goes on
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for satan, at times you speak of him as if he has the same powers as god, other times you speak of him as if he is a mortal. I don't know what to say...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Satan is the second most powerful being in all creation. If God's powers were the universe, satan's would be the universe minus pluto, and for all our might and technology, we would be just an obscure hydrogen atom somewhere in the andromeda galaxy. Not even the most powerful angel dares to challenge satan. he said "The Lord rebuke thee" when they were fighting. Thats how powerful satan is.
Hell is me trying to debate with people and them saying 'LALALALALALALALALALALAL I CAN'T HEAR YOU, I CAN'T HEAR YOU' with their fingers in their ears, for all eternity. Also known as going <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=SF&f=28' target='_blank'>here</a>.
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 24 2003, 01:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 24 2003, 01:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> God will not forgive people who dont believe in him <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have to pick a minor theological nit with you here.
It's perfectly possible for God to forgive you and for you to still go off to hell. Your analogy of the cliff earlier was much closer to the mark, IMHO. God's not the one pushing you off the cliff based on whether or not he forgives you. He's telling you to turn right because he has already forgiven you. But no matter how much he loves you, he can't tie you down to keep you from going over the cliff, because that would rob you of your free will, and without that it wouldn't matter anyway.
Satan does not have the power to suck you into Hell. God does not have the power to suck you into Heaven. You choose your own path. This thing of "God sends you to Hell because you did wrong" is, again, grade-school theology at its finest - imagining God as an irate parent figure.
I want Twex to chime in here - he's probably more up on his Catholicism than I am. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
That would be hilarious if Satan pointed out verses in the Bible that should have clued you in to the fact that God exists and what relegion was right
Satan: You see right there, verse 13, line 4, shows that Mormons were the way to go. You: Well I'll be damned and here I was being all Catholic and saying Hail Marys: Satan: Go figure.
Comments
<ul>
<li>man created these stories to make himself feel more important
<li>man cannot stand the fact that we dont know the meaning of this life
<li>we are scared of dying, and scared of what awaits us after death
<li>man has an over-active imagination
<li>man wants to seem more important than the animals, whilst there isnt much which seperates us from them
<li>evolution is the key theory, we have not always been homospaien, our species has only been present for ~3.5 billion years, if the whole universe's existance is one day, man appeared 2 seconds before midnight (best video btw)
</ul> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make lots of broad sweeoping generalisations, yet fail to back any of them up with any sort of evidence whatsoever. Please? Evidence?
Can everyone please, for the love of Monse, ignore -spidermonkey-'s post and get back on to the topic of Hell?
I believe that the concept of Purgatory is an integral part of the afterlife. While it's a one-way road to Heaven, it is properly located in the realm of Hell.
Here's a Protestant-compatible article I found interesting:
<a href='http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0204/articles/walls.html' target='_blank'>Purgatory for Everyone</a>
When you consider the immense size of the universe, that is ever expanding, you begin to wonder why human kind thinks so highly of itself.
More about evolution and such: billions of years ago humans evolved from apes through random mutations, different selective pressures changed genetic frequency as the homonids began to occupy seperate niches from the apes and other primates. The homonids walked upright, this created a favourable adaptation because of environmental change in africa. Africa became more desolate with plains whilst some forests degraded (natural climatic change). The upright movement conserved energy and created a perspecitve advantage. Now, two prodominant species of homonids evolved, homo sapien and neanderthal man. The main difference of the two is 'imagination', yes thats right, neanderthal man had no imagination, and hence due to homosapiens and neanderthals occupying similar niches, homosapiens won the struggle for existance and hence displaced neanderthal man. This 'imagination' is what helps us survive, we can think of new ways to stay warm, to stay safe, to prevent disease etc. this is a huge advantage, and its what distinguishes us from the animals. Yet this is just an evolutionary adaptation that distinguishes every living species from another due to different adaptations, its the reason different animals occupy different niches, and that two animals cannot simultaneously do this. This imagination evolution is what is responsible for our questioning and hopeless attempts to define our existance.
Man's sense of fear also contributes to the 'over imagination', it is a natural instinct, whilst when combined with our imagination powers conjures up these theories, because we just dont know, rather than accepting the fact that real knowledge is knowing we know nothing, we create elaborate stories to explain these things, because our consciousness is too real, our sense of free will is too strong to not question these things.
As you can see my arguements are very Darwin influenced. The 'theory' of evolution's evidence comes from fossilisation, DNA amino acid comparison and embryology. Evolution cannot explain some things, but there is a large amount of scientific evidence to back it up. Keep in mind religions are all theories too, only reason certain aspects are believed is that there is no scientific evidence to validate this. Scientifically, we cannot prove god or hell or heaven, that is why the theory persists, no one can give evidence on this, it is beyond our capacities. Your need for evidence i find surprising as religion offers surprisingly little of that.
Anyway, wasn't the two main types of humans the Netherland and the Cro Magnons?!
We are Cro Magnons right?
Anyway, wasn't the two main types of humans the Netherland and the Cro Magnons?!
We are Cro Magnons right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, the first modern homosapiens are sometimes referred to as cro magnons.
That said, you cant knock people for having lack of evidence when it comes to faith. What greater evidence do people need then what they percieve to be a very vivid and personal relationship with God? Its incredibly real to them, and when you tell them there God doesnt exist/is proven not to exist, they'll never believe you.
I'm now starting to get the idea that perhaps there IS ranked punishment....
1. Watching Jerry Springer: My Daughter is a HOE!
2. Teletubbies: The Rainbow Adventure
3. A Barbra Streisand Concert
4. Any Pokemon Movie
5. A world without computers
All of the above are fit contenders for the definition of hell...
It is never ever mentioned anywhere at all in the bible. Heaven and hell are talked about, purgatory is not.
Jesus said "I am the Way. No man comes to the Father except through me" ie, you either get into heaven by believeing in me, or you dont get there at all.
Purgatory is just another man-made invention designed for some crazy reason. It has no grounding in faith or evidence
I apologise for bringing up evolution, i had no idea it was so frowned upon....<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> But after all this is <i> natural selection </i> and thats what the idea of evolution is based on <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I still do not think there necessarily is an afterlife, i think its just the fact that people find the conept of 'nothingness' hard to understand. What if there is *nothing* after you die, can you imagine it?? See, its much easier to imagine a devil poking you with a pitchfork, ahh such cliches<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
on the contrary, it may be easier to think about it, but it is certainly nicer to think about nothingness than eternal torment
[edit]
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind."
H.L. Menken<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because that statement cannot be handled, felt and is not tangible, does that mean we should not believe in it as well? It contradicts itself. It is a statement telling you not to believe in it. [/edit]
As for the quote, i dont think it is contradictory at all. It simply means people preoccupy themselves in things that deep down they <i>know</i> are not true, but <i>want</i> to believe in them so badly that truth comes them.
As for the statement, on the surface, it appears fine, but it is talking about epistemology and the belief that the only things that are true or false are those that can be verified by science. Like the verification principle, it falls into its own trap. Because the statement itself cannot be verified, or in this case, touched, it isefl is meanigless, or, in your case, wrong. By saying that statement, i would imagine that H.L. Menken believed it was true. but because it itself is not tangible, it cannot be true, it contradicts itself
This is another one of his quotes which illustrates the point perhaps a bit clearer.
The other quote is not talking about statements or observations being true or false, it is talking about (i believe) humankind's overactive mind, and the ability to create these concepts (like hell), and turn them into fact. This statement has evidence, people have believed for thousands of years, the false until they are disproven.
btw boggle happy birthday <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Why can god not defeat satan?
Doesn't the fact that god lets billions of people burn for eternity when he could save them go against the key principals of christianity?
<i>edit: Spiders quote makes perfect sense, your "logic" trying to explain why it doesnt make sense, doesnt make sense! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--></i>
This is another one of his quotes which illustrates the point perhaps a bit clearer.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but technically it is not saying the same thing
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The other quote is not talking about statements or observations being true or false, it is talking about (i believe) humankind's overactive mind, and the ability to create these concepts (like hell), and turn them into fact. This statement has evidence, people have believed for thousands of years, the false until they are disproven.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The statement is saying that it is stupid to believe in things that are intangible. I think we wouls all agree that an idea or concept(such as heaven) is intangible. He has just commited a fallacy. He has said that it is stupid to turn ideas into facts <i>and yet that is exactly what he has done.</i> He has taken the idea of believeing in intangible things and <i>turned it into a fact</i>, i.e. his statement "The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->btw boggle happy birthday <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thankyou
---
<!--QuoteBegin--Mercior+Oct 24 2003, 04:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mercior @ Oct 24 2003, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Boggle, you say satan is like a bully - making people suffer for his insecuritys. If god truly loved man, would he not try to save the people who were destined for hell?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God has saved the people. it happend 2000 years ago when a bloke named Jesus lived a perfectly sinfless life and was then punished for it
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why can god not defeat satan?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God has defeated satan. His actions now are merely his death-throws
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Doesn't the fact that god lets billions of people burn for eternity when he could save them go against the key principals of christianity?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no. He has saved them. all they need to do is aknowledge that fact
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<i>edit: Spiders quote makes perfect sense, your "logic" trying to explain why it doesnt make sense, doesnt make sense! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--></i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the quote makes sense, it just contradicts itself. It is saying it is folly to believe in something that is not tangible. The statement is not tangible, therefore it is folly to believe it. How does that not make sense?
Excuse my lack of biblical knowledge... what exactly did god do here to save us? Also, is it not a sin to kill living creatures? (Which would mean jesus did not lead a sinless life...)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God has defeated satan. His actions now are merely his death-throws<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If satan still exists then he has not been defeated
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->no. He has saved them. all they need to do is aknowledge that fact<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If there are billions upon billions of people burning in hell, that doesn't sound like they have been "saved" to me. Are you saying that while we're burning forever, we can just say "im sorry god, you were right" and we'll be whisked off to heaven? Given that god created man, is all powerful, and unconditionally loves us, why would he allow satan to take us and torture us for ever ?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, the quote makes sense, it just contradicts itself. It is saying it is folly to believe in something that is not tangible. The statement is not tangible, therefore it is folly to believe it. How does that not make sense?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>PALPABLE</b>
<i>
Easily perceptible; plain; distinct; obvious; readily
perceived and detected; gross; as, palpable imposture;
palpable absurdity; palpable errors. ``Three persons
palpable.'' --P. Plowman.</i>
The quote says that our greatest downfall is the stupid habit of beleiving in things that are obviously not true (religion). Where we differ here is that I agree religion is clearly a stupid concept, and you don't. We won't come to an agreement on this <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Excuse my lack of biblical knowledge... what exactly did god do here to save us? Also, is it not a sin to kill living creatures? (Which would mean jesus did not lead a sinless life...) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By sending Jesus to live as a man for 33 years with a perfectly sinless life, then having him crucified with the sin of everybody who believes dumped on to him, then punished for it, we ar let off the hook and he is put on the hook, only, being God, he rose from the dead and is alive today in heaven, thereby defeating death and satan
It is a sin to kill humans, it is not a sin to kill animals, we have been given dominion
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If satan still exists then he has not been defeated<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you ever play Tiberian Sun? If you destroyed the enemy Construction Yard and their War factory, they were screwed. They needed a war factory to build a construction yard and they needed a construction yard to build a war factory. It is like that with Satan. He is going to die, the battle is already won, we are just mopping up the peices (so to speak)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If there are billions upon billions of people burning in hell, that doesn't sound like they have been "saved" to me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If someone tells you to turn right, and you go straight on and fall off a cliff, who's fault is it? you cant blame the guy who told you to turn right, thats for sure. God has told you what you need to do to be saved. The choice is now down to you. He has provided the way out of death, you have to take it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are you saying that while we're burning forever, we can just say "im sorry god, you were right" and we'll be whisked off to heaven? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you had your chance during life. "we die only once, then we are judged" After you die and are judged, your fate is sealed. You chose to live your life without God, you can live your death without him too. He will miss you, but thats your fault.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Given that god created man, is all powerful, and unconditionally loves us, why would he allow satan to take us and torture us for ever ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He has provided a way out. if you choose not to take his way out, he will be sad, but he wont try to stop you, he has given you free will.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...obviously not true (religion). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can i shake your hand? you are truly the most remarkable person i have ever met. Can you send me a large signed photo of yourself so i can stick it on my wall?
There is still a problem here. Surely God is no better than satan if he willingly lets people who have chosen not to beleive in him (using the gift of free will that he gave them) suffer forever - why does he feel that anyone who chose not to beleive in him deserves to be tortured?
God is bullying people who didn't beleive in him by not saving them when he can. -Why can he not forgive them?
Also, given that Satan hates god, why does he make hell such a horiffic place? Why would he want to make people suffer? Specifically, why would he punish people who are against his only enemy (god)?
Then this discussion is effectively over. I have "won" (for want of a better word). You will put forward a point, I will argue against it with an anaogy, and you will refuse to produce a counter argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is still a problem here. Surely God is no better than satan if he willingly lets people who have chosen not to beleive in him (using the gift of free will that he gave them) suffer forever - why does he feel that anyone who chose not to beleive in him deserves to be tortured?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who are you to say that God is wrong? a flawed human being (like the rest of us) who cant even remember what he had for dinner last saturday is challenging the supremacy of the one perfect eternal being? God is not sinning in letting people go to hell because he has a morally sufficient reason for it. end of argument
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God is bullying people who didn't beleive in him by not saving them when he can. -Why can he not forgive them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He can. all they have to do is believe
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, given that Satan hates god, why does he make hell such a horiffic place? Why would he want to make people suffer? Specifically, why would he punish people who are against his only enemy (god)?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Satan hasnt created Hell. Do you think if he knew he was going to be there for eternity that he would make it how it is? Hell is where God is not, and that is by definition the worst place imaginable
Who are you to say that God is wrong? a flawed human being (like the rest of us) who cant even remember what he had for dinner last saturday is challenging the supremacy of the one perfect eternal being? God is not sinning in letting people go to hell because he has a morally sufficient reason for it. end of argument<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then by your logic it is morally ok to physically harm people who do not beleive in god?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God is bullying people who didn't beleive in him by not saving them when he can. -Why can he not forgive them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He can. all they have to do is believe<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesnt answer my question. Why can god not forgive people who do not beleive he exists? Why would he deliberately put us in a world with no evidence that he exists (think pre-biblical times), require us to come to the conclusion that he does by blind faith, and then damn those of us who think independantly to eternal torture?
As for satan, at times you speak of him as if he has the same powers as god, other times you speak of him as if he is a mortal. I don't know what to say...
Who are you to say that God is wrong? a flawed human being (like the rest of us) who cant even remember what he had for dinner last saturday is challenging the supremacy of the one perfect eternal being? God is not sinning in letting people go to hell because he has a morally sufficient reason for it. end of argument <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then by your logic it is morally ok to physically harm people who do not beleive in god?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, because we are not God. If you create a beautiful pot, it would be perfectly fair and just for you to smash it wouldnt it? Nobody could stop you because it was your pot. Since we are God's creation, he has the right to whatever he wants with us, and nobody can even question that right
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God is bullying people who didn't beleive in him by not saving them when he can. -Why can he not forgive them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He can. all they have to do is believe<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesnt answer my question. Why can god not forgive people who do not beleive he exists? Why would he deliberately put us in a world with no evidence that he exists (think pre-biblical times), require us to come to the conclusion that he does by blind faith, and then damn those of us who think independantly to eternal torture?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God will not forgive people who dont believe in him because that would nt be fair, and if God is anything, he is fair. Imagine you have spent your whole life living, breathing and dying for God, only to have him say on judgement day "oh, stuff it, you are all in" how fair is that?
Because God is eternal, his salvation is eternal. There is no time when God's salvation did not exist, even before Jesus. The people had evidence. There were prophets proclaiming Gods message - Isiah, Ezekiel, Elijah, Moses, Jonah... the list goes on
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for satan, at times you speak of him as if he has the same powers as god, other times you speak of him as if he is a mortal. I don't know what to say...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Satan is the second most powerful being in all creation. If God's powers were the universe, satan's would be the universe minus pluto, and for all our might and technology, we would be just an obscure hydrogen atom somewhere in the andromeda galaxy. Not even the most powerful angel dares to challenge satan. he said "The Lord rebuke thee" when they were fighting. Thats how powerful satan is.
tell me, when did i say he was a mortal?
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
AAARRGGHH IT BURNS!!
duuude. thats a baad place.
(lalalala)
: P
I have to pick a minor theological nit with you here.
It's perfectly possible for God to forgive you and for you to still go off to hell. Your analogy of the cliff earlier was much closer to the mark, IMHO. God's not the one pushing you off the cliff based on whether or not he forgives you. He's telling you to turn right because he has already forgiven you. But no matter how much he loves you, he can't tie you down to keep you from going over the cliff, because that would rob you of your free will, and without that it wouldn't matter anyway.
Satan does not have the power to suck you into Hell. God does not have the power to suck you into Heaven. You choose your own path. This thing of "God sends you to Hell because you did wrong" is, again, grade-school theology at its finest - imagining God as an irate parent figure.
I want Twex to chime in here - he's probably more up on his Catholicism than I am. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
A. Speed read the bible over and over.
B. Watch Teletubbies.
C. Sing the Barney song.
The stuff of nightmares.
Satan: You see right there, verse 13, line 4, shows that Mormons were the way to go.
You: Well I'll be damned and here I was being all Catholic and saying Hail Marys:
Satan: Go figure.