What Is Hell Like?

Twex · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Satan does not have the power to suck you into Hell. God does not have the power to suck you into Heaven. You choose your own path.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>The beautiful thing is, the Catholic Church has never infallibly defined this issue, realizing its schismatic dangers.

The view you just described (which I share) is Molinism: Our free will must cooperate to make God's sufficient grace efficacious for salvation. But the molinistic Jesuits became entangled in nasty dispute with the Dominicans who subscribed to Thomism: God pre-moves all wills, some into election, some not. The Protestant will recognize Arminianism struggling with Calvinism here.

After listening to the debate for nine years, the Pope (Paul V) permitted both views and commanded everyone to keep the peace.

And this is why the Protestants still fight and the Catholics eat the popcorn. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Mercior · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 24 2003, 09:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
 </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Then by your logic it is morally ok to physically harm people who do not beleive in god?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
no, because we are not God. If you create a beautiful pot, it would be perfectly fair and just for you to smash it wouldnt it? Nobody could stop you because it was your pot. Since we are God's creation, he has the right to whatever he wants with us, and nobody can even question that right</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You seem to answer a lot of my questions with these analogies <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> Heres mine: 2 parents create a child, do they have the right to willingly kill (or harm, or do anything they like to) their child? Well the law says no.. law which you told me before was written by god himself, quite hypocritical of him when he's constantly harming his children for not beleiving in him huh?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>That doesnt answer my question. Why can god not forgive people who do not beleive he exists? Why would he deliberately put us in a world with no evidence that he exists (think pre-biblical times), require us to come to the conclusion that he does by blind faith, and then damn those of us who think independantly to eternal torture?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

God will not forgive people who dont believe in him because that would nt be fair, and if God is anything, he is fair. Imagine you have spent your whole life living, breathing and dying for God, only to have him say on judgement day "oh, stuff it, you are all in" how fair is that?
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Why does he require us to beleive in him is what I'm asking; Why does he not show us that he exists? Why does he create us, give us the ability to decide if we beleive in him, then punish those of us who decide not to beleive in him? Is it just a game to him, does us not beleiving in him somehow affect him? It doesn't add up.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Because God is eternal, his salvation is eternal. There is no time when God's salvation did not exist, even before Jesus. The people had evidence. There were prophets proclaiming Gods message - Isiah, Ezekiel, Elijah, Moses, Jonah... the list goes on</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

These prophets are all from the same geographical region, why did god not speak to "prophets" on different continents - say america? It had a large indian population, yet they were never influenced by christianity... did god just ignore that side of the world?

And satan.. hmm. Why are satan and god enemies anyway? If satan has so much power why doesn't he create his own planet with his own people?

Legionnaired · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why does he require us to beleive in him is what I'm asking; Why does he not show us that he exists? Why does he create us, give us the ability to decide if we beleive in him, then punish those of us who decide not to beleive in him? Is it just a game to him, does us not beleiving in him somehow affect him? It doesn't add up.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

He doesn't require us to believe in Him, really. However, He cannot be fully good if He does not fully detest what is bad. As long as we cling to our badness, we make ourselves unholy, and tear ourselves away from His presence.

Really, not believing in Him isn't what gets you, it's clinging to sin and refusing to let Him take it away, something he made possible on the cross. He extended His hand to help you from the dirt, it's your choice to accept it.

As far as the showing he exists;

1) <u>New Evidence That Demands Verdict</u>, the first few chapters of <u>Mere Christianity</u> and Lee Strobel's <u>The Case for Christ</u> all provide enough evidence, I think, to at least cast some credibility on the theory.

2)God coming down into these forums and pwning us all himself would, in effect, take away every shred of free will we had, because every logical thing in our minds and bodies would become aligned to aknowledging(sorry, SP) and worshipping His existance.

Oh, and Twex, thanks for adding in that mention of Arminianism vs Calvinism, I had absolutely no idea what you were talking about before then. Thanks for keeping this thread understandable for us Catholic-Impaired. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

spidermonkey · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>These prophets are all from the same geographical region, why did god not speak to "prophets" on different continents - say america? It had a large indian population, yet they were never influenced by christianity... did god just ignore that side of the world?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

This is a very good arguement and it shows how religion is culture specific, it shows how each cultrue has made up these stories over time to explain the natural world which we knew so little about. This shows that the very root of human nature is to strive to explain the unexplained or unexplainable.

People sometimes have a hard time labelling the morally right and morally wrong. For example the debate on stem cell research, is it wrong to kill an unborn child and use its stem cells to potentially save many people?? Therefore god's judgement would have to be highly subjective.

God seems very irrational to me. He expects us to believe in what we cannot physically see, taste, smell etc. Where as our senses tell us to do the opposite.

Imagine life has no meaning, we do not go anywhere to be judged, there is no hell etc. Difficult to imagine? yes. Human kind strives to find meaning in everything, even when we dont know, we make it up.

FilthyLarry · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 23 2003, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Oct 23 2003, 10:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Hmm, I think that its forced labor in a McDonalds. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Venmoch wont be pleased to hear you say that...

The visions of hell provided in the bible talk of a large lake of fire with people wailing and crying. "and there shall be much wailing and gnashing of teeth" We are also told that one of the people in hell called up to heaven for one drop of water to relieve the eternal fire on his tounge  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
gnashing of teeth until enventually your teeth are worn away...and then begins the gnashing of gums...ah yes...you shall gnash until you feel that you can't possibly gnash away and yet ye shall continue to gnash always and forever gnashy gnashy and perhaps the occasional gnashing on strange foreign objects inserted into mouths from year to year....

the wailing... the lamentation of the woman... the shrieking of the men... the crying of the transexuals... the moaning of the hermaphrodites... the bleating of the zoophiliacs... the bagging of the pipes... the locooka of the roaches ... the grinding of the furniture...

tis awful...

not to mention the thirst... it is like one permanent chili flavoured tongue of despair and utter doom that bespeaks all of the above mentioned wailing and similar activities... inbetween the gnashing is the never-ending thirsting of eternal-dryness and perpetual non-moistness...

tis horrible that hell

p4Samwise · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mercior @ Oct 24 2003, 08:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> why did god not speak to "prophets" on different continents - say america? It had a large indian population, yet they were never influenced by christianity... did god just ignore that side of the world?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Not according to the Mormons.

Bogglesteinsky · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-spidermonkey- @ Oct 25 2003, 05:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>These prophets are all from the same geographical region, why did god not speak to "prophets" on different continents - say america? It had a large indian population, yet they were never influenced by christianity... did god just ignore that side of the world?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

 </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
no, that side of the world ignored God

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>This is a very good arguement and it shows how religion is culture specific, it shows how each cultrue has made up these stories over time to explain the natural world which we knew so little about. This shows that the very root of human nature is to strive to explain the unexplained or unexplainable. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Is there anything wrong with that approach?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>People sometimes have a hard time labelling the morally right and morally wrong. For example the debate on stem cell research, is it wrong to kill an unborn child and use its stem cells to potentially save many people?? Therefore god's judgement would have to be highly subjective. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

God's judgement is perfectly fair. We have been told not to murder, that includes unborn children. Stem cell research is wrong imo

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>God seems very irrational to me. He expects us to believe in what we cannot physically see, taste, smell etc. Where as our senses tell us to do the opposite. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Do you believe in the wind? You cannot see the wind can you? You dont know what it tastes like, you cannot feel the wind, that is just billions of air particles hitting your face. What does the wind smell like? you dont know do you. You cannot see, feel, smell faste or touch the wind but it is there. So how do you know it exists? By your reasoning, we shouldn't believe in it. We see the <i>effects</i> of the wind. The trees swaying, the brown leaves whirling in the road, the fields pulsating as the corn gets blown around. Its like that with God. you cannot see, touch, feel, smell or taste but you can see the effetcs he has on people. Rebellious teenagers changing into boy scouts helping old ladies across the road. Criminals turning away from a life of crime and giving back to the community. Ordinary people so convinced they are willing to die for it. Thats pretty powerful for something that doesnt exist.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Imagine life has no meaning, we do not go anywhere to be judged, there is no hell etc. Difficult to imagine? yes. Human kind strives to find meaning in everything, even when we dont know, we make it up.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Life with no meaning... What a bleak outlook. Depression, self pity, low self esteem, suicide. all because life has ne meaning. suicide appears to be the only way out. Is it surprising that man tries to find a meaning? Without it, he is lost. Death seems the only option. Why, when everything else has a purpose, would we be the only beings in the whole universe without anything to live for? Thats why the wolrd is in such a bad way. People have nothing to live for. They live for the moment, and when the moment is up, what then? do you take your seat in the great amphitheatre of the world and watch others having fun? "life has no meaning" how much comfort is that to a grieving wife who's husband was snatched away in the blink of an eye? "Dont worry, he wasn't worth anything anyway" No wonder humanity is trying to find a purpose. Its what give meaning to life, hope for the future, comfort to the sad, and you can sit there and be all high and mighty and say life has no meaning? tell that to the parents who's baby died last night.

lazygamer · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Do you believe in the wind? You cannot see the wind can you? You dont know what it tastes like, you cannot feel the wind, that is just billions of air particles hitting your face. What does the wind smell like? you dont know do you. You cannot see, feel, smell faste or touch the wind but it is there. So how do you know it exists? By your reasoning, we shouldn't believe in it. We see the effects of the wind. The trees swaying, the brown leaves whirling in the road, the fields pulsating as the corn gets blown around. Its like that with God. you cannot see, touch, feel, smell or taste but you can see the effetcs he has on people. Rebellious teenagers changing into boy scouts helping old ladies across the road. Criminals turning away from a life of crime and giving back to the community. Ordinary people so convinced they are willing to die for it. Thats pretty powerful for something that doesnt exist.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

The problem is, the effects of the wind are traceable to the wind. The effects you describe here could be thought of as brainwashing. Christianity has these miraclous effects on humanity, but don't other religions display the same effects? Furthermore, what about cults? Normal people ending up empowered with a cause, yet that cause is obviously not the true god. So if all these other religions empower people, and they are false, why then does your religion(Christianity) have credibility, if other false ones can produce similiar effects?

I am a former Christian, I was in your shoes once. Now that I have left the faith, I feel that it was brainwashing. The ability of a human's mind to convince himself of something is powerful and drug-like.

spidermonkey · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>no, that side of the world ignored God</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

How convenient. It seems more like God ignored that part of the world, why would he do this? And then punish those who dont believe in him.

There is nothing wrong with the culture-specific approach, each culture has created stories, and they are all different 'theories' of our existance.

Yes, some people do not believe stem cell research is wrong, it is their subjective view, just like god's. See, god's set of value are culturally reflectant aswell.

Wind is what we call the movement of air from low to high pressure. We can see what wind does, and the cause of it. Yet, people who 'convert' to the good side have reasons, god did not manipulate them to change their minds, it is our so called 'free will' that determines our actions.

Of course man tries to find a meaning to everything, but who says any one meaning is right. It is one possiblity of infinately many. What sort of meaning of life do you think animals have? They do not interpret right and wrong, and only do something if it is advantageous of them to do so. They cannot be sent to hell, or heaven. What meaning of life do they have? When you consider that biologically, humans are not that different to animals; we can imagine, we have a large cranial capacity, we have opposable thumbs, thats it, our sense of morals have evolved over time. We have seen the effects of actions and have judged certain actions in certain ways.

IMO, the meaning of life that cannot be explained in words, it is something our puny minds cannot comprehend or explain, it is beyond our capabilities. Although, these conversations are truly pointless, it is too difficult to change someone's values and view of the world, people will argue to the death. Why do you think there are so many wars fuelled by religion?

The bottom line is we dont know, we just dont know. And if humanity cannot accept this, all is lost.

:edit: lazygamer, this is very true. Christians see their religion as the right one, this an extremely arrogant stand point, whilst other religions strive to explain the same concepts in different ways. Religion and systems of beliefs have been forced down people's necks since the beginning of mankinds (short) time in this universe, it is the cause of countless wars, fighting and cultural hate. The reason is power, humans are powerhungry animals, if you convince others of your beliefs and values, you can control and manipulate them in any way you want.

Bogglesteinsky · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lazygamer @ Oct 25 2003, 09:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The problem is, the effects of the wind are traceable to the wind. The effects you describe here could be thought of as brainwashing. Christianity has these miraclous effects on humanity, but don't other religions display the same effects? Furthermore, what about cults? Normal people ending up empowered with a cause, yet that cause is obviously not the true god. So if all these other religions empower people, and they are false, why then does your religion(Christianity) have credibility, if other false ones can produce similiar effects?

I am a former Christian, I was in your shoes once. Now that I have left the faith, I feel that it was brainwashing. The ability of a human's mind to convince himself of something is powerful and drug-like.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
The effects of the wind are the only evidence we have that the wind exists, wouldnt you agree?

I am not saying that just because people get happy when they become a christian that Christianity is right. I am not using my statement as an argument for Christianity, I am simple pointing out the foolishness of believeing only in things you can sense, because there are plenty of things you cannot feel or see yet are evidently there.

what about love? that exists, yet you cannot even describe it, let alone see it. The only evidence we have for it is the effects of it, yet i dont see any discussions about the existance of love

Geminosity · October 2003

actually, you can feel the wind... unless maybe you're covered from head to toe in clothing or you've had your skin torn off =P

SkulkBait · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Do you believe in the wind? You cannot see the wind can you? You dont know what it tastes like, you cannot feel the wind, that is just billions of air particles hitting your face. What does the wind smell like? you dont know do you. You cannot see, feel, smell faste or touch the wind but it is there. So how do you know it exists? By your reasoning, we shouldn't believe in it.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

That is the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. I am surprised that even you, boggle, used it. Let me put it this way boggle, has anybody, in the history of time, ever denied the existance of wind? No. The reason being that the evidence for its existance is completely indisputable. Your 'evidence' for God's existance, however, is not.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>what about love? that exists, yet you cannot even describe it, let alone see it. The only evidence we have for it is the effects of it, yet i dont see any discussions about the existance of love </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Your not looking hard enough.

Bogglesteinsky · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 25 2003, 10:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> actually, you can feel the wind... unless maybe you're covered from head to toe in clothing or you've had your skin torn off =P </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
no, you cannot feel the wind. You feel the air particles hitting you. if you notice, i addressed that point in my argument

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Your not looking hard enough</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

In what way? Have you ever seen love? the actual love particles or whatever they are? You have seen people <i>in</i> love. You have seen what love does to people, but have you ever actually <i>seen</i> love?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>That is the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. I am surprised that even you, boggle, used it. Let me put it this way boggle, has anybody, in the history of time, ever denied the existance of wind? No. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I am not saying the wind does not exist. that would be foolish. I am saying that people are quite happy believe the wind, which they cannot touch, feel, smell, taste or hear exists, yet when it comes to God, they suddenly retreat into their shell and say that they dont believe in things they cannot sense with thier 5 senses.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The reason being that the evidence for its existance is completely indisputable.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

agreed. Never once did i say the wind does not exist

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Your 'evidence' for God's existance, however, is not.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Neither did i say it proves God exists either.

<b>PLEASE NOTE: I have said this before, but evidently i need to say it again. I am not using the wind argument as evidence of God's existence. I am merely pointing out the serious flaw in only believing in things you can sense</b>

spidermonkey · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 25 2003, 05:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 25 2003, 10:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> actually, you can feel the wind... unless maybe you're covered from head to toe in clothing or you've had your skin torn off =P </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
no, you cannot feel the wind. You feel the air particles hitting you. if you notice, i addressed that point in my argument  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
That's what wind is.... the movement of air particles. Therefore the air particles hitting your face <i>is</i> wind. I dont see much support for this arguement.

Bogglesteinsky · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-spidermonkey- @ Oct 25 2003, 11:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 25 2003, 05:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 25 2003, 10:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> actually, you can feel the wind... unless maybe you're covered from head to toe in clothing or you've had your skin torn off =P </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
no, you cannot feel the wind. You feel the air particles hitting you. if you notice, i addressed that point in my argument </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
That's what wind is.... the movement of air particles. Therefore the air particles hitting your face <i>is</i> wind. I dont see much support for this arguement.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
no. Air particles hitting your face is air particles hitting your face. The wind is what's <i>causing</i> them to hit your face, it is not what <i>is</i> hitting your face

spidermonkey · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Air is a fluid which moves in circuits, powered by unequal heating of large masses of air. As the Earth's surface is warmed differentially, the air above these surfaces absorbs different amounts of heat. Warmer air rises while cool air sinks which creates the environment for flowing air movement. Winds flow across parallels of latitude, taking heat from equatorial regions to polar regions. This equalizing process causes wind.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

The difference is that we have evidence to prove the reason for the effect of wind. We do not have any evidence of theories of existance, therefore we can only take wild stabs in the dark.

Bogglesteinsky · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-spidermonkey- @ Oct 25 2003, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Air is a fluid which moves in circuits, powered by unequal heating of large masses of air. As the Earth's surface is warmed differentially, the air above these surfaces absorbs different amounts of heat. Warmer air rises while cool air sinks which creates the environment for flowing air movement. Winds flow across parallels of latitude, taking heat from equatorial regions to polar regions. This equalizing process causes wind.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

The difference is that we have evidence to prove the reason for the effect of wind. We do not have any evidence of theories of existance, therefore we can only take wild stabs in the dark.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
You cannot see the wind, you say it is foolish to believe in things you cannot see, yet you believe in the wind

There is evidence for the wind? There is plenty of evidence for the existence of God too.

CommunistWithAGun · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 25 2003, 07:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-spidermonkey- @ Oct 25 2003, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Air is a fluid which moves in circuits, powered by unequal heating of large masses of air. As the Earth's surface is warmed differentially, the air above these surfaces absorbs different amounts of heat. Warmer air rises while cool air sinks which creates the environment for flowing air movement. Winds flow across parallels of latitude, taking heat from equatorial regions to polar regions. This equalizing process causes wind.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

The difference is that we have evidence to prove the reason for the effect of wind. We do not have any evidence of theories of existance, therefore we can only take wild stabs in the dark. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You cannot see the wind, you say it is foolish to believe in things you cannot see, yet you believe in the wind

There is evidence for the wind? There is plenty of evidence for the existence of God too.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Well, when light refracts off the particles that reside in wind, you can see the jetstreams they create, therefore, you can "see" wind.

spidermonkey · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 25 2003, 07:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You cannot see the wind, you say it is foolish to believe in things you cannot see, yet you believe in the wind

There is evidence for the wind? There is plenty of evidence for the existence of God too.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
No, i think it is foolish to believe in something without indisputable evidence. There is indisputable evidence for wind, and no one doubts its existance, nor is faith considered to be an element in believing in wind.

Just as there is evidence for god, there is evidence against him. It also depends on the kind of 'evidence' you want, and how this 'evidence' is presented and interpreted that makes the difference.

Bogglesteinsky · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-spidermonkey- @ Oct 25 2003, 02:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Just as there is evidence for god, there is evidence against him. It also depends on the kind of 'evidence' you want, and how this 'evidence' is presented and interpreted that makes the difference.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
what evidence do you have that God does not exist?

MrMojo · October 2003

What evidence do you have that he does?

spidermonkey · October 2003

What evidemce do you have that he does exist?

It all depends on interpretation of evidence. Though, There is no indisputable evidence that god exists.

Mercior · October 2003

Boggle, you really do come up with some interesting arguements <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Firstly, I'll point out that once again you only answered 1 of the questions from my last post when I specifically asked you 4.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>God seems very irrational to me. He expects us to believe in what we cannot physically see, taste, smell etc. Where as our senses tell us to do the opposite. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Your wind arguement is stupid, we have indisputable scientific evidence that completely explains the effect of wind, we can see it (see communists post) and we can feel it. Name something that god has done in the last 1000 years that would give us proof he exists? By providing no evidence of his existance then casting us to hell if we do not beleive in him, it seems to me that god is the one trying to lure us into hell.

Slightly offtopic replys to your other points:
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Life with no meaning... What a bleak outlook. Depression, self pity, low self esteem, suicide. all because life has ne meaning. suicide appears to be the only way out. Is it surprising that man tries to find a meaning? Without it, he is lost. Death seems the only option.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I beleive that life has no meaning but I don't go commiting suicide. I have learned to get over it and make the most of my time on the planet. Suicide would seem a far more attractive opportunity to me if I was christian, the choice of sitting here, or dancing with naked ladies in the land of milk and honey?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why, when everything else has a purpose, would we be the only beings in the whole universe without anything to live for? Thats why the wolrd is in such a bad way.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
"when everything else has a purpose"... example please? What other beings in the universe have purpose (and what is it)?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>how much comfort is that to a grieving wife who's husband was snatched away in the blink of an eye? "Dont worry, he wasn't worth anything anyway" No wonder humanity is trying to find a purpose. Its what give meaning to life, hope for the future, comfort to the sad, and you can sit there and be all high and mighty and say life has no meaning? tell that to the parents who's baby died last night. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Sorry but its the truth, we are worthless. That doesn't mean we can't feel sad when somebody dies, but it is stupid to fill ourselves with false hope that we will meet them again. You often speak of life as if it is fair and for every action there should be an equal reaction that balances everything out; Look around you! Life doesn't work that way.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In what way? Have you ever seen love? the actual love particles or whatever they are? You have seen people <i>in</i> love. You have seen what love does to people, but have you ever actually <i>seen</i> love?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Love is an emotion. It is a neural state - the closest you will get to seeing it is looking at a brain, there are no magical love particles flying through the air.

Another religios question I'd like answered: Why did god create disease and viruses? If we look at scientific evidence, we see that they are made up of DNA, just as humans and animals are so we can can assume it was god who created them. Why?

Bogglesteinsky · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Oct 25 2003, 01:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 25 2003, 07:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-spidermonkey- @ Oct 25 2003, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Air is a fluid which moves in circuits, powered by unequal heating of large masses of air. As the Earth's surface is warmed differentially, the air above these surfaces absorbs different amounts of heat. Warmer air rises while cool air sinks which creates the environment for flowing air movement. Winds flow across parallels of latitude, taking heat from equatorial regions to polar regions. This equalizing process causes wind.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

The difference is that we have evidence to prove the reason for the effect of wind. We do not have any evidence of theories of existance, therefore we can only take wild stabs in the dark. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You cannot see the wind, you say it is foolish to believe in things you cannot see, yet you believe in the wind

There is evidence for the wind? There is plenty of evidence for the existence of God too. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Well, when light refracts off the particles that reside in wind, you can see the jetstreams they create, therefore, you can "see" wind.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
no CWAG. it is not the wind that we see, it is the lgiht refracting through high and low denisity areas of air causing it to reach our eyes at a slightly different angle. It is not the wind that you see, it is the difference in densities of the air

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>God seems very irrational to me. He expects us to believe in what we cannot physically see, taste, smell etc</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

And yet you believe in the wind? You believe that I exist even though you cannot see or hear me? I believe bangladesh exists but i have not been there. You belive in a Big bang yet you cannot see it. I believe in god yet I cannot see him. How is that different?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Suicide would seem a far more attractive opportunity to me if I was christian, the choice of sitting here, or dancing with naked ladies in the land of milk and honey?
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You really dont know much about the bible do you? May i suggest you go and read it before causing me more mirth?

Naked Ladies?? where did they come in?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"when everything else has a purpose"... example please? What other beings in the universe have purpose (and what is it)?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

The sun has a purpose. Its purpose is to give light so life can grow. If there was no sun, there would be no life. It is fulfilling its purpose.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You often speak of life as if it is fair and for every action there should be an equal reaction that balances everything out</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Why not? there is in everything else. What makes life so different? it is just another part of the universe afterall. "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction"

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Love is an emotion. It is a neural state - the closest you will get to seeing it is looking at a brain, there are no magical love particles flying through the air</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>]

My point exactly. you cannot see love, yet you believe it exists.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why did god create disease and viruses? If we look at scientific evidence, we see that they are made up of DNA, just as humans and animals are so we can can assume it was god who created them. Why? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Bacteria are life forms just like any other animal or plant. They do not trouble you as long as you dont get infected. It is like Dogs. If you annoy one, you will get bitten. is the dog sinning? no. With bacteria, if you ignore basic hygine rules, you get infected. Is the bacteria sinning? no. Is there snything wrong with bacteria? no. Death and decay are things we experience all the time. With out bacteria, the carcasses would pile up and no nutirent would be returned to the earth. you dont want to get ill? stop eating out of the rubbish bins. thats just asking for it

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What evidence do you have that he does? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What evidemce do you have that he does exist?

It all depends on interpretation of evidence. . </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I asked first. You give me the evidence that God does not exist, and i will give you evidence that he does.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Though, There is no indisputable evidence that god exists</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

There is no indisputable evidence that anything exists

spidermonkey · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>God seems very irrational to me. He expects us to believe in what we cannot physically see, taste, smell etc</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And yet you believe in the wind? You believe that I exist even though you cannot see or hear me? I believe bangladesh exists but i have not been there. You belive in a Big bang yet you cannot see it. I believe in god yet I cannot see him. How is that different?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

No i said the first quote, and i reiterated further that i refuse to believe without concrete evidence. Stop repeating the same arguement over and over.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The sun has a purpose. Its purpose is to give light so life can grow. If there was no sun, there would be no life. It is fulfilling its purpose.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

err no, the sun was present long before life on this planet was. The sun, being a star, and there being trillions of stars in the universe, these stars are mostly not surrounded by life inhabited planets. It is not the sun's purpose to give life, life simply harnesses the sun's energy which is present.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>My point exactly. you cannot see love, yet you believe it exists.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You can feel love, that is evidence enough, sight is not the only sense we have.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Bacteria are life forms just like any other animal or plant. They do not trouble you as long as you dont get infected. It is like Dogs. If you annoy one, you will get bitten. is the dog sinning? no. With bacteria, if you ignore basic hygine rules, you get infected. Is the bacteria sinning? no. Is there snything wrong with bacteria? no. Death and decay are things we experience all the time. With out bacteria, the carcasses would pile up and no nutirent would be returned to the earth. you dont want to get ill? stop eating out of the rubbish bins. thats just asking for it</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I doubt god created bacteria to teach us hygene rules. Detritivores or denitrifying bacteria are different from diseases and viruses though...

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>There is no indisputable evidence that anything exists</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Thats not even a real arguement.

The main reason i do not believe in god is because i believe in science. Learning biology i have built on my own theories and adopted new ones. You wonder why most scientists don't believe in god. Im not going to list evidence against god because most of it stems from science, and the futile science vs religion debate will fuel on.

Mercior · October 2003

*refuses urge to write 10 pages flaming boggle*

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>no CWAG. it is not the wind that we see, it is the lgiht refracting through high and low denisity areas of air causing it to reach our eyes at a slightly different angle. It is not the wind that you see, it is the difference in densities of the air</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
And it is the densitys of air that cause the wind. Therefore seeing that proves that our explanation of wind is correct. Please also note that we can measure wind.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And yet you believe in the wind? You believe that I exist even though you cannot see or hear me? I believe bangladesh exists but i have not been there. You belive in a Big bang yet you cannot see it. I believe in god yet I cannot see him. How is that different?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Seeing is not beleiving. There are many ways to measure things beyond seeing them. If I dobuted that bangladesh existed I would visit it to see for myself, there isn't this option with god. I don't quite beleive in the big bang theory (I beleive in fractal dimension theory which explains the "bang"), but we can still measure this by looking at galaxies that are always moving away from each other and by measuring the bands of radiation that are still echoing throughout the universe from the bang. We can't see it, but we still have proof of its existance.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You really dont know much about the bible do you? May i suggest you go and read it before causing me more mirth?

Naked Ladies?? where did they come in?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You told me that heaven is my personal image of bliss, that happens to be dancing with naked ladies in fields of milk and honey <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> I'm guessing that the bible says if you commit suicide you go to hell.. but does it provide a rational explanation for this? I'd like to hear it.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The sun has a purpose. Its purpose is to give light so life can grow. If there was no sun, there would be no life. It is fulfilling its purpose.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Look at your original quote: "Why, when everything else has a purpose, would we be the only beings in the whole universe without anything to live for?"

The sun does NOT live, nor is it a "being". It is a large mass of burning hydrogen. It is not here to support life, life is here because it supported it. That aside, I'll humor you for a minute: Ok, so our sun exists because its purpose is to provide light.. could you explain to me the purpose of the trillions of other suns that do not support life? Or what is the purpose of the other planets in our solar system? What is the purpose of supernova that lie billions of miles away on the other side of the universe that are invisible to man without satellite telescopes?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You often speak of life as if it is fair and for every action there should be an equal reaction that balances everything out </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Why not? there is in everything else. What makes life so different? it is just another part of the universe afterall. "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction"</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
This one had me laughing out loud. You can't just quote a random theory from the science of physics and apply it to the meaning of life. In a physical sense, that theory is perfectly true, there is never an exception to it. If you're trying to say that if a person commits murder he will have something bad happen to him in return, using Newtons third law of physics as your basis for this claim, then you are an idiot; <b>The 2 have absolutely nothing to do with each other</b>.

It's like me saying that because the laws of chemistry dictate that if I mix baking soda with water it will produce a base.. we can assume that if we mix a human with water it will produce a base.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>My point exactly. you cannot see love, yet you believe it exists.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I do not beleive love "exists" in any form. We experience a certain emotion that we have dubbed "love" - it is a trick of our brains that we have evolved as a survival method. We know it exists because we can experience it, and we have rational scientific reasons for it.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Bacteria are life forms just like any other animal or plant. They do not trouble you as long as you dont get infected. It is like Dogs. If you annoy one, you will get bitten. is the dog sinning? no. With bacteria, if you ignore basic hygine rules, you get infected. Is the bacteria sinning? no. Is there snything wrong with bacteria? no. Death and decay are things we experience all the time. With out bacteria, the carcasses would pile up and no nutirent would be returned to the earth. you dont want to get ill? stop eating out of the rubbish bins. thats just asking for it
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

More ridiculous anologies. You say "They do not trouble you as long as you dont get infected" - while that is true, you do not have control over whether or not you get infected. A dog will bite you if you go up to it and start beating it, survival. A virus will infect anything and everything it comes into contact with, its sole purpose is to infect and and feed off (thus killing) as many lifeforms as it possibly can.

Why did god create this?

You talk of hygene - hygene is a man made concept - I don't recall god creating an irrogation system while he was busy creating men and animals and plants and millions of deadly viri to kill us, nor do i remember him telling us any basic hygene facts - science has only recently provided them. I'll ignore your comments on bacteria - I'm talking about viri and diseases.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>There is no indisputable evidence that anything exists </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
What do you mean? I'm sitting here on my chair typing on my keyboard, I'm pretty sure they exist.

Heres a repost of a question from page 5 you never answered:
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>no, because we are not God. If you create a beautiful pot, it would be perfectly fair and just for you to smash it wouldnt it? Nobody could stop you because it was your pot. Since we are God's creation, he has the right to whatever he wants with us, and nobody can even question that right</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You seem to answer a lot of my questions with these analogies Heres mine: 2 parents create a child, do they have the right to willingly kill (or harm, or do anything they like to) their child? Well the law says no.. law which you told me before was written by god himself, quite hypocritical of him when he's constantly harming his children for not beleiving in him ?

Legionnaired · October 2003

Merc, would you mind if I addressed some of those?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>God seems very irrational to me. He expects us to believe in what we cannot physically see, taste, smell etc. Where as our senses tell us to do the opposite. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Your wind arguement is stupid, we have indisputable scientific evidence that completely explains the effect of wind, we can see it (see communists post) and we can feel it. Name something that god has done in the last 1000 years that would give us proof he exists? By providing no evidence of his existance then casting us to hell if we do not beleive in him, it seems to me that god is the one trying to lure us into hell.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

If you'd lengthened that span of time to 2000 years, then I might have something for you. However, I really can't pinpoint a time in the last millenia where God has shown His presence powerfully to the entire world.

I can, however, pinpoint a time where God showed Himself to me through a freind of mine, who, despite being a social loser in every sense of the word, was happy, spoke powerfully, and lived His life in a way that showed everyone that he was above the popularity struggles of junior high, and when I asked him about it, he told me about Christ.

I know it means nothing to you, you flippantly disregard the idea of religion because you say it is for the weak, and has nothing to it, and my little half-paragraph spattering of personal testamony means absolutely nothing. You are going to write me off, disregard me a delusioned young fool, and call it a day. That's your choice, and I don't blame you for it.

But the thing is, that every single person in my church has had either an experience where they accept Christ much in the matter described, or where they feel His presence in their lives so much that they are drawn to go and act upon it. I think it's worth noting that this little section of the 'body of Christ' has well over 5000 people in regular attendance, not just people like me, but scientists, doctors, neural net programmers, and all the people which are not "supposed to be" Christians.

I think the best evidence for the fact that God exists the the end result of what He has done. The Church, made up of billions of believers, made possible through Christ laying himself down on the cross.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I beleive that life has no meaning but I don't go commiting suicide. I have learned to get over it and make the most of my time on the planet. Suicide would seem a far more attractive opportunity to me if I was christian, the choice of sitting here, or dancing with naked ladies in the land of milk and honey?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

There's a Catch-22 here. If you were a Christian, you'd see your greater purpose, going out to spread the news, that reconciliation to God is possible, it's free, and that you can do it right now. Paul spoke of this curcumstance, I want to say in Phillipians, where he says that he wishes to depart and go to heaven, but sticks around here for the benefit of the people around him. Being a Christian is about loving God, and from love comes obedience, and from obedience comes action, and from action comes rewards.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why, when everything else has a purpose, would we be the only beings in the whole universe without anything to live for? Thats why the wolrd is in such a bad way.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
"when everything else has a purpose"... example please? What other beings in the universe have purpose (and what is it)?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I'm going to have to disagree with boggle here. We are the only animals which strive for a greater purpose. We are different, whether that difference is a deformity or a reflection of why we evolved/were created remains to be seen. What I can tell you, is that while I have been a Christian, that insatiable desire for a greater purpose has been fulfilled many times over. Take that as you will.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Sorry but its the truth, we are worthless. That doesn't mean we can't feel sad when somebody dies, but it is stupid to fill ourselves with false hope that we will meet them again. You often speak of life as if it is fair and for every action there should be an equal reaction that balances everything out; Look around you! Life doesn't work that way.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You contradcit yourself. If we are worthless, why do you cry for someone who dies? They are worth nothing, right? Humans are worth something, it's just that compared to God, we have fallen so far short. Enter Christ.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Another religios question I'd like answered: Why did god create disease and viruses? If we look at scientific evidence, we see that they are made up of DNA, just as humans and animals are so we can can assume it was god who created them. Why?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

The penalty for sin is death, as a result of the original sin, and death came into this world in more ways than one.

FilthyLarry · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 25 2003, 05:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-spidermonkey- @ Oct 25 2003, 11:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 25 2003, 05:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 25 2003, 10:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> actually, you can feel the wind... unless maybe you're covered from head to toe in clothing or you've had your skin torn off =P </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
no, you cannot feel the wind. You feel the air particles hitting you. if you notice, i addressed that point in my argument </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
That's what wind is.... the movement of air particles. Therefore the air particles hitting your face <i>is</i> wind. I dont see much support for this arguement. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
no. Air particles hitting your face is air particles hitting your face. The wind is what's <i>causing</i> them to hit your face, it is not what <i>is</i> hitting your face  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
No, wind is <b>defined as moving air</b>. If you are trying to go after the cause of the wind then you are trying to reference some sort of force/pressure idea.

You can feel wind just as you can feel most moving objects colliding with you.

Hawkeye · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOOL @ Oct 23 2003, 11:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I always thought it was the absence of God and the torment that comes is from the fact that you knew you were wrong on earth and will never have an opportunity for a personal relationship with the most powerful being. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I kind of thought that too.

You'd have to live with the realization that you lived your life in such a way that you disgraced your maker, and you will never have the chance to meet him in person.

What I want to know, is where do all the people who aren't christians go? Do they go to hell? If so, which level of hell?

MrMojo · October 2003

If God really exists, why is there no evidence to prove this? If God really exists, why is there even violence in the world? Why make things bleed, why make diseases?

Don't tell me the devil did that, you have no evidence of him existing either.

What Is Hell Like?

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