Since clan members and people that don't suck know exactly where to aim at an onos, doesn't this just serve as a tremendous onos buff in the clan community?
<!--QuoteBegin--Fr05t+Oct 26 2003, 03:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fr05t @ Oct 26 2003, 03:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm curious as to how long this hitbox fix will put 2.1 in testing. I don't know about everyone else here, but if it will drastically increase the amount of time it's in production, would it be possible to remove the hitbox fix for now so that Flay and the PTs can test the next build of NS and get it working. Doing this might prove easier in teh long run as that you aren't fixing bugs in the game from NS:C AND balance issues caused by the new hitboxes. It does seem a lot to under take at once, and truth be told, the hitboxed aren't that much of a problem now since people are learning where to aim at the onos. I have almost no problem hitting skulks, gorges, and fades. Lerks are a different matter cause a lot of lerkers use the disappear in ceiling trick. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If they did this, the game would just have to be rebalanced later when the hitboxes were fixed.
Nice to see the bugs being fixed. It makes sense to balance a game bugfree. The dev ppl are over a great balance hurdle. Give it 2 flayra to balance i say <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--DrunkenSailor+Oct 26 2003, 12:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DrunkenSailor @ Oct 26 2003, 12:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Since clan members and people that don't suck know exactly where to aim at an onos, doesn't this just serve as a tremendous onos buff in the clan community? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really. HMG, for example, will hit with more of its shots. Right now, even someone who knows where to aim, can't hit an onos with even a majority of the HMG bullets, except when at uncomfortably close range.
<!--QuoteBegin--DrunkenSailor+Oct 26 2003, 05:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DrunkenSailor @ Oct 26 2003, 05:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Since clan members and people that don't suck know exactly where to aim at an onos, doesn't this just serve as a tremendous onos buff in the clan community? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Im sure you can hit the wide side of the barn as well as any clanner <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just fix what's broken: kharaa player HP/armor counts. The smaller the tinkering, the less chance there is of borking everything else.
As for removing the hidden onos weakpoint (actually hitting him), I'm all for it. It's more a bug than a "feature," and it hurts the overall consistancy of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--Epidemic+Oct 26 2003, 02:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Oct 26 2003, 02:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Will the model still be a ghostly shell you can wade halfway trough? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes.
I wouldn't worry about the hitboxes ruining the game. It does play noticably better when you can shoot an alien in the head and they take damage. There's gonna be some health/armor tweaking of course and that may add some dev time on to 2.1, but it probably won't be pushing the release back three weeks or anything like that.
Max, here's a question: In half-life, there were all sorts of critters of various shapes and sizes. Houndeyes, headcrabs, the Nihilanth, and the large fish are no exceptions. I can't recall having any collision hull 'clipping' with any of those critters, so were those all given hulls that fit their model, or were they using the same hull like NS?
Hard to explain... but... why are there so many shapes and sizes in HL, but only 3 in NS?
You know I was just wondering that myself Uranium. I think maybe they had custom hulls shaped to their models given to them. Of course I don't even know it that is possible with the HL engine...
I believe what they fixed was that the game used to check to see if you hit the hull, then if you collided with the hitbox, but now, it just checks for the hitbox.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Oct 26 2003, 04:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Oct 26 2003, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Max, here's a question: In half-life, there were all sorts of critters of various shapes and sizes. Houndeyes, headcrabs, the Nihilanth, and the large fish are no exceptions. I can't recall having any collision hull 'clipping' with any of those critters, so were those all given hulls that fit their model, or were they using the same hull like NS?
Hard to explain... but... why are there so many shapes and sizes in HL, but only 3 in NS? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Keep in mind that the 3 hulls limit is <b>on a single map</b>. Because you move from level to level (IE map to map) during HL gameplay, in each separate area the developers have 3 hulls to work with. If you only encounter 3 shapes of enemies in each map, then the devs can use hulls that perfectly match the models.
However, in NS you have alot more than 3 shapes in each map, which means multiple models need to use the same hull, which leads to the problems of things moving inside eachother, hits not registering, etc.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Oct 26 2003, 06:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Oct 26 2003, 06:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Max, here's a question: In half-life, there were all sorts of critters of various shapes and sizes. Houndeyes, headcrabs, the Nihilanth, and the large fish are no exceptions. I can't recall having any collision hull 'clipping' with any of those critters, so were those all given hulls that fit their model, or were they using the same hull like NS?
Hard to explain... but... why are there so many shapes and sizes in HL, but only 3 in NS?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this has to do with the fact that those were monsters and not players. The physics/collision system in Half-Life is not very unified and objects/players/monsters all work differently. I'm not 100% sure about that though.
With some clever coding it's definitely possible to rework Half-Life so that it can use any size hulls for players, but this isn't something we've had time to do.
<!--QuoteBegin--Talesin+Oct 26 2003, 12:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Oct 26 2003, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It still isn't enough. And even if it was, it'd just lock Carapace into the first-upgrade every game again, something that's been trying to be fixed.
Personally, I'm all for doubling (Lerk), tripling (Fade), or quadrupling (Onos) HP and Armor. Thankfully headshots and all locational damage were removed (as they let you kill a Skulk in four LMG bullets... pointless to play), but the Kharaa are still losing every single game of standard NS I've been in, and 14/15 games of NS:C. It IS fun, but it gets extremely depressing knowing the outcome every time.
Thankfully, development continues. Flay'll be sure to come up with something. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> increasing alien health will have detrimental effects on other aspects of the game. what about dc healing? at only 10hp/tick, it would take forever to fully heal a 2000hp onos, armor notwithstanding. The most logical solution to me is simply to lower marine damage, perhaps by half.
<!--QuoteBegin--Big Chief Brown Bottom+Oct 26 2003, 11:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Big Chief Brown Bottom @ Oct 26 2003, 11:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Talesin+Oct 26 2003, 12:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Oct 26 2003, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It still isn't enough. And even if it was, it'd just lock Carapace into the first-upgrade every game again, something that's been trying to be fixed.
Personally, I'm all for doubling (Lerk), tripling (Fade), or quadrupling (Onos) HP and Armor. Thankfully headshots and all locational damage were removed (as they let you kill a Skulk in four LMG bullets... pointless to play), but the Kharaa are still losing every single game of standard NS I've been in, and 14/15 games of NS:C. It IS fun, but it gets extremely depressing knowing the outcome every time.
Thankfully, development continues. Flay'll be sure to come up with something. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> increasing alien health will have detrimental effects on other aspects of the game. what about dc healing? at only 10hp/tick, it would take forever to fully heal a 2000hp onos, armor notwithstanding. The most logical solution to me is simply to lower marine damage, perhaps by half.
That is:
lmg 5/bullet pistol 10/bullet hmg 10/bullet
tada! marine overpoweredness addressed (somewhat) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> or DC's could heal a precentage...
There are a ton of things to balance out now that hitboxes are fine. Ugh.
oh yeah i forgot shotguns. they should fall to 9/pellet (currently 17/pellet @ 10 pellets per shot). and you're right forlorn, lots of issues need to be addressed. i think that alien speed should get a boost since they get shred by machinegun fire before they can close in for an attack
<!--QuoteBegin--Big Chief Brown Bottom+Oct 26 2003, 11:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Big Chief Brown Bottom @ Oct 26 2003, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> then you can simply nerf the skulks. its less drastic than increasing alien hp 2,3,4x to 2000hp onos 750hp fades and so on <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You know, so far, all we have to go on is speculation. Unless you are a PT / Constellation Member. Who knows how strongly the hp boost effects the game in lieu of the hitbox fix. We can't assume that it is too much, unless you have seen it in action. We really need to hear a PT's views on this.
The problem is not from nowhere. The marine weapons are overpowered in the 2.01 version. So I think good balancing with the new hitboxes can change a lot. It just needs time.
But I either don't wanna see a 2000 HP onos... or a 400 HP skulk. That seems a bit weird.
Maybe it's the wrong way just changing alien HP/Armor. Maybe the devs need to completly rebalance all the weapons/HP/buildings and whatnot to get a good balance.
I have to agree with tyrain here, and all the other people who suggested weakening marine weapons as opposed to strengthening alien health and armor totals. And I believe there were at least 3 other people who suggested this.
But this would of course cause a significant playtesting-related delay however.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cold-NiTe+Oct 26 2003, 09:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold-NiTe @ Oct 26 2003, 09:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have to agree with tyrain here, and all the other people who suggested weakening marine weapons as opposed to strengthening alien health and armor totals. And I believe there were at least 3 other people who suggested this.
But this would of course cause a significant playtesting-related delay however. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It will cause a delay, of course. However, since the hitboxes can be fixed, they should be (no one disagrees with this, of course). When this is done, whether it is now or later, it will require lots of changes to balance the game. If it is done later, it may invalidate some balancing work currently being done.
Main problem with boosted alien hp is that turrets get weaker as a side-effect. Drastically improved Oni hp could still be balanced with the removal of the half damage effect. So it doesn't seem like that big a deal.
What I'm really wondering is this: If they're going to do some serious balancing with these new hitboxes, then why not put in the knockback fix also and start from scratch? I don't see how balancing new hitboxes could be much easier than balancing both that and the knockback fix.
I know what's going to happen... They are going to release 2.1 after 1-2 weeks of extra balancing with the new hitboxes. Then after 3-4 more weeks they are going to release with a new or removed knockback effect. The good news is that NS 2.11 is not too far off, which means that 3.0 may be released as soon as early next year with new elements and rebalanced chambers and abilities! Well, one can hope...
<!--QuoteBegin--Cold-NiTe+Oct 26 2003, 11:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold-NiTe @ Oct 26 2003, 11:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You know, so far, all we have to go on is speculation. Unless you are a PT / Constellation Member. Who knows how strongly the hp boost effects the game in lieu of the hitbox fix. We can't assume that it is too much, unless you have seen it in action. We really need to hear a PT's views on this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quoting myself seems tacky, but the idea is that I was hoping with further discussion, we might actually be able to get a PT in here who can tell us how the balancing is going. This seems unlikely, even to me, but not impossible, we just need some cooperation.
<!--QuoteBegin--TempDeleteMe+Oct 25 2003, 02:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TempDeleteMe @ Oct 25 2003, 02:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1) Does this mean that it is possible to shoot between the legs of a marine?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The aliens have guns in the next version? I mean... yea acid rocket, but what is going to be shooting between marine legs that isn't going to damage them anyways? Well... parasite and spit, but when do you actually kill with either of those?
<!--QuoteBegin--2of12[B0RG]+Oct 26 2003, 10:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2of12[B0RG] @ Oct 26 2003, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--TempDeleteMe+Oct 25 2003, 02:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TempDeleteMe @ Oct 25 2003, 02:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1) Does this mean that it is possible to shoot between the legs of a marine?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The aliens have guns in the next version? I mean... yea acid rocket, but what is going to be shooting between marine legs that isn't going to damage them anyways? Well... parasite and spit, but when do you actually kill with either of those? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> spike? Also, marines can shoot between the legs of a fade (right? i could be wrong about how the hitboxes work).
Comments
If they did this, the game would just have to be rebalanced later when the hitboxes were fixed.
Not really. HMG, for example, will hit with more of its shots. Right now, even someone who knows where to aim, can't hit an onos with even a majority of the HMG bullets, except when at uncomfortably close range.
Im sure you can hit the wide side of the barn as well as any clanner <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for removing the hidden onos weakpoint (actually hitting him), I'm all for it. It's more a bug than a "feature," and it hurts the overall consistancy of the game.
Yes.
Max
Hard to explain... but... why are there so many shapes and sizes in HL, but only 3 in NS?
Hard to explain... but... why are there so many shapes and sizes in HL, but only 3 in NS? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep in mind that the 3 hulls limit is <b>on a single map</b>. Because you move from level to level (IE map to map) during HL gameplay, in each separate area the developers have 3 hulls to work with. If you only encounter 3 shapes of enemies in each map, then the devs can use hulls that perfectly match the models.
However, in NS you have alot more than 3 shapes in each map, which means multiple models need to use the same hull, which leads to the problems of things moving inside eachother, hits not registering, etc.
Hard to explain... but... why are there so many shapes and sizes in HL, but only 3 in NS?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this has to do with the fact that those were monsters and not players. The physics/collision system in Half-Life is not very unified and objects/players/monsters all work differently. I'm not 100% sure about that though.
With some clever coding it's definitely possible to rework Half-Life so that it can use any size hulls for players, but this isn't something we've had time to do.
Max
Personally, I'm all for doubling (Lerk), tripling (Fade), or quadrupling (Onos) HP and Armor. Thankfully headshots and all locational damage were removed (as they let you kill a Skulk in four LMG bullets... pointless to play), but the Kharaa are still losing every single game of standard NS I've been in, and 14/15 games of NS:C. It IS fun, but it gets extremely depressing knowing the outcome every time.
Thankfully, development continues. Flay'll be sure to come up with something. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
increasing alien health will have detrimental effects on other aspects of the game. what about dc healing? at only 10hp/tick, it would take forever to fully heal a 2000hp onos, armor notwithstanding. The most logical solution to me is simply to lower marine damage, perhaps by half.
That is:
lmg 5/bullet
pistol 10/bullet
hmg 10/bullet
tada! marine overpoweredness addressed (somewhat)
Personally, I'm all for doubling (Lerk), tripling (Fade), or quadrupling (Onos) HP and Armor. Thankfully headshots and all locational damage were removed (as they let you kill a Skulk in four LMG bullets... pointless to play), but the Kharaa are still losing every single game of standard NS I've been in, and 14/15 games of NS:C. It IS fun, but it gets extremely depressing knowing the outcome every time.
Thankfully, development continues. Flay'll be sure to come up with something. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
increasing alien health will have detrimental effects on other aspects of the game. what about dc healing? at only 10hp/tick, it would take forever to fully heal a 2000hp onos, armor notwithstanding. The most logical solution to me is simply to lower marine damage, perhaps by half.
That is:
lmg 5/bullet
pistol 10/bullet
hmg 10/bullet
tada! marine overpoweredness addressed (somewhat) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
or DC's could heal a precentage...
There are a ton of things to balance out now that hitboxes are fine. Ugh.
Edit: clarification.
You know, so far, all we have to go on is speculation. Unless you are a PT / Constellation Member. Who knows how strongly the hp boost effects the game in lieu of the hitbox fix. We can't assume that it is too much, unless you have seen it in action. We really need to hear a PT's views on this.
But I either don't wanna see a 2000 HP onos... or a 400 HP skulk. That seems a bit weird.
Maybe it's the wrong way just changing alien HP/Armor. Maybe the devs need to completly rebalance all the weapons/HP/buildings and whatnot to get a good balance.
But this would of course cause a significant playtesting-related delay however.
But this would of course cause a significant playtesting-related delay however. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It will cause a delay, of course. However, since the hitboxes can be fixed, they should be (no one disagrees with this, of course). When this is done, whether it is now or later, it will require lots of changes to balance the game. If it is done later, it may invalidate some balancing work currently being done.
What I'm really wondering is this: If they're going to do some serious balancing with these new hitboxes, then why not put in the knockback fix also and start from scratch? I don't see how balancing new hitboxes could be much easier than balancing both that and the knockback fix.
I know what's going to happen... They are going to release 2.1 after 1-2 weeks of extra balancing with the new hitboxes. Then after 3-4 more weeks they are going to release with a new or removed knockback effect. The good news is that NS 2.11 is not too far off, which means that 3.0 may be released as soon as early next year with new elements and rebalanced chambers and abilities! Well, one can hope...
Quoting myself seems tacky, but the idea is that I was hoping with further discussion, we might actually be able to get a PT in here who can tell us how the balancing is going. This seems unlikely, even to me, but not impossible, we just need some cooperation.
1) Does this mean that it is possible to shoot between the legs of a marine?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The aliens have guns in the next version? I mean... yea acid rocket, but what is going to be shooting between marine legs that isn't going to damage them anyways? Well... parasite and spit, but when do you actually kill with either of those?
1) Does this mean that it is possible to shoot between the legs of a marine?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The aliens have guns in the next version? I mean... yea acid rocket, but what is going to be shooting between marine legs that isn't going to damage them anyways? Well... parasite and spit, but when do you actually kill with either of those? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
spike? Also, marines can shoot between the legs of a fade (right? i could be wrong about how the hitboxes work).
"Commander there's a lerk spiking us!"
"Keep moving, hopefully he'll shoot between your legs."