God, The Couch Potato?
Hawkeye
Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1855Members
Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1855Members
in Discussions
What purpose could the Almighty God have for creating the world? He can create anything he wants, right? Why does he NEED earth?
This line of questioning got me to thinking. What does God need with a bunch of life forms he created? A theme in the bible is that he always wants to have believers. So not only must he have an Earth, but a group of people that know how "wonderful" he is.
He can create anything he wants, so why us? I think if he wanted a cheeseburger, I doubt he would take the time to create a universe and let the pieces assemble themselves. He would simply create the cheeseburger as he wants it. Why have a continual ongoing universe?
The only reason I can come up with is that God is a couch potato. He watches Earth like a spectator at a sporting event or an audience member at a circus. He's being entertained. This is the whole motive for our existance.. to entertain. It's the ultimate reality television.
Before you post here, you must assume God exists. This is a prerequisite. Athiests are welcome so long as they assume God exists. Et cetera. Moderators help me enforce, please. This thread would go no where if this became a debate about whether God existed or not.
This line of questioning got me to thinking. What does God need with a bunch of life forms he created? A theme in the bible is that he always wants to have believers. So not only must he have an Earth, but a group of people that know how "wonderful" he is.
He can create anything he wants, so why us? I think if he wanted a cheeseburger, I doubt he would take the time to create a universe and let the pieces assemble themselves. He would simply create the cheeseburger as he wants it. Why have a continual ongoing universe?
The only reason I can come up with is that God is a couch potato. He watches Earth like a spectator at a sporting event or an audience member at a circus. He's being entertained. This is the whole motive for our existance.. to entertain. It's the ultimate reality television.
Before you post here, you must assume God exists. This is a prerequisite. Athiests are welcome so long as they assume God exists. Et cetera. Moderators help me enforce, please. This thread would go no where if this became a debate about whether God existed or not.
Comments
Or maybe god is like a massive Will Wright and he just likes playing 'The Sims'.
Frankly, I've never understood why god needs this 'meaningful relationship' crap either. If I had god's powers, why would I <span style='color:red'>(dodging swear filters, are we?)</span> "mess" <span style='color:red'>(See how easy it was for me to come up with a synonym to your word? Vocabulary Builder 6.0 is a good investment.)</span> around with earth and it's inhabitants, deciding who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. I'd set up inhabitants and let them do whatever they wanted, then go off and collide stars into each other.
I'd screw with people's heads by sending asteroids at them 12,000x larger then the earth itself, then have it wink out of existance at the last second.
God has a really really boring life :/
May I address your argument piecewise?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What purpose could the Almighty God have for creating the world? He can create anything he wants, right? Why does he NEED earth? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He doesn't. Go figure. Does it matter? The only thing I can see this train of thought used for is to discredit the existance of God, but your very post akniwledges that fact by attacking Him. We are here, and so is He, any other speculation on the nature of the universe really doesn't matter, in the bigger picture.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He can create anything he wants, so why us? I think if he wanted a cheeseburger, I doubt he would take the time to create a universe and let the pieces assemble themselves. He would simply create the cheeseburger as he wants it. Why have a continual ongoing universe?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly don't know, but keep in mind, God is outside of time. Ever hear "He is not slow as some understand slowness?" God is fully soverign to everything, so maybe this universe is really just a blink of an eye to Him. Again, not an issue though. We know we are here, we have reasonable doubt that He is here, thanks to His son, and that's all there is to it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A theme in the bible is that he always wants to have believers. So not only must he have an Earth, but a group of people that know how "wonderful" he is.
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You're sort of missing the point. God, by His very nature, is so powerful, so perfect, so set apart from you and me that it is AMAZING that he actually does want any of us to try and mimic Him. He doesn't need us, we need Him, and He offers to fill that need. Something he is in no way required to do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only reason I can come up with is that God is a couch potato. He watches Earth like a spectator at a sporting event or an audience member at a circus. He's being entertained. This is the whole motive for our existance.. to entertain. It's the ultimate reality television.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess I can see where you're coming from, but just LOOK at the old testament, and you can see just how active God was, look at Acts, and see how He worked to set up the Church (who'se sole purpose is to spread the word, that eternal life is now possible), and have me tell you some time about some of the cool stuff I've seen Him do. If he's a couch potato, he's the most active couch potato I've ever seen.
Now, uranium...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Frankly, I've never understood why god needs this 'meaningful relationship' crap either.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not crap to me, uranium.
But that's besides the point. God doesn't _need_ relationships, He could have wiped out Adam and Eve and been done with it. However, He chose to leave us be, to keep blessing us, and to keep being there for us. Again, go figure.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I had god's powers, why would I d.ick around with earth and it's inhabitants, deciding who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. I'd set up inhabitants and let them do whatever they wanted, then go off and collide stars into each other.
I'd screw with people's heads by sending asteroids at them 12,000x larger then the earth itself, then have it wink out of existance at the last second.
God has a really really boring life :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All this shows is that God is more loving than you are. I don't really think you'll seriously protest this claim, will you?
Aye, tough, but not important enough to make it into the scriptures anywhere.
We are here, He is here, and that's that.
However, your statement also assumes we're seperate entities from God, which we are... and are not.
This... this opens up a huge sort of thing about how I believe in God, and that's a bit much.
In TOTALLY unrelated news, my church rocks. Our pastor held a lan party and started extolling the virtues of Age of Empires becuase you could win by "not killing the enemy, but becoming culturally enlightened." So we all started building wonders just as his massive armies came by and destroyed all four of us. What a b*stard. I wiped the floor with him in AvP though.
However, your statement also assumes we're seperate entities from God, which we are... and are not.
This... this opens up a huge sort of thing about how I believe in God, and that's a bit much.
In TOTALLY unrelated news, my church rocks. Our pastor held a lan party and started extolling the virtues of Age of Empires becuase you could win by "not killing the enemy, but becoming culturally enlightened." So we all started building wonders just as his massive armies came by and destroyed all four of us. What a b*stard. I wiped the floor with him in AvP though. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is totally sweet. My youth group usually does HALO, which is completely awesome when you've got 16 people in the same room fragging each other.
Every try lining up 15 people for single-sniper-shot-massicre?
But we digress. Any other questions/remarks Hawkeye?
The key to understanding God's lack of need for anything definitely lies in his trinity. If he were but one, it would be hard to explain why he wouldn't be lonely and bored, having nobody to interact with.
Seriously though, either
a) There is a catch. God gets something out of all this which makes him something else than a perfect being
b) It's basically THE SAME for him if we exist or not. Our existance is hence completely and totally random. It's the same for him if we exist and it is the same for you if you want to blink your eyes now or wait one more second. When a bunch of dustballs create a cult around that meaningless move, it won't even amuse you. You couldn't care less.
Now that's about it. Either he gets a kick out if it or he doesn't care. Your pick. I can't see any other option here. Now you can say that our human minds can't understand why but it seems pretty stupid to worship something you don't know why you do it.
Premise #1: God is all-powerful and can create anything.
Premise #2: God created the world we know.
<u>Presmise #3: God doesn't need anything.</u>
Conclusion: We exist because we are a fluke or accident.
OR
Premise #1: God is all-powerful and can create anything.
Premise #2: God created the world we know.
<u>Presmise #3: God needs the world somehow.</u>
Conclusion: We exist because he needs us to serve his purpose. (? Whatever this might be ?)
Thoughts?
Or perhaps God has a science project due in a million years. We are his science project, this little ecosystem that he has to write a report on and turn into his supreme being teachers. See how everything turns out.
Conclusion: We exist because we are a fluke or accident.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is possible to deliberately create out of abundance. For example, me and my mapping. I've got some time to kill... I don't need anything from my map, but I do it anyway. I create out of an abundance of time and creativity, and it's certainly not random...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><u>Presmise #3: God needs the world somehow.</u>
Conclusion: We exist because he needs us to serve his purpose. (? Whatever this might be ?)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think any of us can even begin to comprehend infinite gifting. If a literally perfect being sees to create things, that is it's own perogative, it does not make itself imperfect by the act of creation.
Let us remember, God is outside of time, He is eternal and constant. He needs nothing to 'pass the time' or alieviate the boredom, because such a thing simply is not possible when the ticking of a clock means nothing to you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As a non-believer, I always asked this question myself. Used to debate it with my hard-core religious friends. Their argument usually centered around the fact that someone with such a powerful gift wants to do good with it. Like a master gardener, he creates an environment and develops his beautiful garden. Different plants here, a few vegetables there. Weeds pop up, he takes care of them, etc. You could call it a giant game of "The Sims." Essentially it gives "him" something to do. And maybe he has other gardens (universes) that he's cultivating. Wonder what they might look like?
Or perhaps God has a science project due in a million years. We are his science project, this little ecosystem that he has to write a report on and turn into his supreme being teachers. See how everything turns out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can think whatever you want to about God's nature, it really doesn't change the fact that from the parts of His character that <u>He Himself</u> has shown us, He is all good, all powerful, and all just. That is, essentially, all we need to know. You wouldn't ask a lifeguard who is trying to save your life what his background is before you let Him help you ashore, because the only thing that matters is that you are in a situation of need, and he is there to save you.
That is, essentially, the same position we are in with God. We are in need, if not for sustainment and fulfillment in our temporal bodies but also for rescue from our rebellious nature, and God made that need able to be filled by having Himself nailed to a 2x4. Nobody can say He's not all-loving.
John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If there is a god, why must people label him with human attributes. ie, god created earth for entertainment,... why would he be bored? God wants believers... why would he want to be acknowledged? Why would god need/want anything he creates? The problem is, people see god as a person, this is wrong imo. If god created us, how can we resemble him in the slightest sense? I dont think our mind can comprehend what 'god' is like. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We were created to be equipped with everything nesscesary to have a relationship with God. Free will, etcetea. We cannot have a relationship with that which we cannot see, so God gave us the perception to see His nature, and even when we were blinded from it the most, Christ shed his blood, just to show us what He is all about. The attributes we put on God can't define all of Him, certainly, words are Human inventions. However, they can give us a big enough picture of Him, that we can approach Him and ask Him to fill in the blanks through His workings in our own life. I can't even begin to explain what He has done for me in the last week, let alone the 6 years since I decided that I wanted Him in my life.
Oh geez! Why did God procrastinate! Now he has to figure out how to hurry it up all at once before his 8 million o'clock class after lunch. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nobody can say He's not all-loving.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't want to invoke a discussion about the problem of evil, but evil exists. Can an all-good God allow evil in the world? Only if he doesn't know about it, or he can't prevent it. Either way you're saying he's not all-knowing or all-powerful respectively. I think there is plenty to question about God. If God makes such curious beings, I don't see how questioning God would be anything but doing as we were designed to do. If asking about our world is such a bad thing, it is a wonder he hasn't stopped us by now (you could say we ate the apple in the garden of eden to make us so unnaturally curious, but seriously.. he's God.. he can't keep a lady from eating an apple? come on, he let it happen).
What would you recommend then? We take everything on faith?
You know how silly THAT is?
It is easy to dismiss this argument because "God defies logic." Well, you might as well say "God works in mysterious ways" which is the end-all argument to explain everything if you rely on faith. However, for the sake of argument, assume that the actions of God aren't "mysterious" and they really do have a purpose. What might that purpose be? Is asking that question really "kind of silly"?
It might be easier to believe the world was hatched from a chicken egg, but I for one would like to know the truth, and not some fairy tale with no proof of being true. Whatever created this world must have had a reason for doing it (unless you can prove to me that someone can do something without any reason). I simply would like to know the reason, and to do that, the first step would be to not take everything on faith.
He clearly wants to be acknowledged. The first three commandments tell you how insecure he is.
Conclusion: We exist because we are a fluke or accident.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is possible to deliberately create out of abundance. For example, me and my mapping. I've got some time to kill... I don't need anything from my map, but I do it anyway. I create out of an abundance of time and creativity, and it's certainly not random... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bad analogy. God doesn't have to kill time. It's totally the same to him if we exist or not. Looking and accepting at those three premises Hawkeye posted, it's totally and completely the same for God if we live or not. If we could say that God has emotions, they wouldn't change in a slightest bit if he hadn't created us. Like you said yourself, God doesn't care about time. Since we humans don't affect God in anyway, why would he create us? Perfect beings state of mind can not be changed.
If we have eliminated that option, we have left:
-God doesn't exist
and
-God gets a kick out of this. He needs us for something which means he is not perfect. Perfect being doesn't need anything.
not wanting to dwell on this for too long, but it was brought up and i feel it needs to be answered.
God allows evil to exist becasue he has a good reason for it, one that we as humans cannot understand.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Premise #1: God is all-powerful and can create anything.
Premise #2: God created the world we know.
Presmise #3: God doesn't need anything.
Conclusion: We exist because we are a fluke or accident.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
If we have eliminated that option, we have left:
-God doesn't exist
and
-God gets a kick out of this. He needs us for something which means he is not perfect. Perfect being doesn't need anything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perfect being doesnt need anything, but does perfect being <i>want</i> anything? There is a difference. I dont need a ferrari, I <i>want</i> a ferrari. God doesn't need us, he wants us. Why would God need us? The earth isnt a giant games of Black and White. He doesn't need our "Prayer Power" to cast miracles. Being 'wanted' is much better than being 'needed' we are not here because some kid in the 4th grade has to hand in a science project (- Eviscerator). We are here because an omnipotent being wants to have a relationship with us. He doesnt need us, which is why it is a wonder that we are actually here in the first place.
"God works in mysterious ways" may be a justifiable arguement to the believer, but it isnt for me.
One is that at the end of all things, the good souls become fellow gods and go on to create new universes, in effect becoming gods friends, while evil souls are merely discarded.
Another, and my personal favorite of course, is that god is in fact a scientist from a higher dimension, who spilled his coffee in their version of a super collider. Long story short, our universe was created. After a while, god figured out how to manipulate the universe to his own ends, but the board of ethics caught up with him. By then he'd already created Man and his second in charge, Satan, "accidentally" (sabotaged in other words) introduced evil into the universe. Satan was jailed, and god was ordered 100 Trillion years of community service in aid of our universe. At first he was somewhat reluctant, but now we've essentially grown on him, which is why he sent his messenger, Jesus, our way. Souls he likes are saved to a disk, souls he dosent like are sent to the recycle bin. Once the universe comes to it's logical conclusion, god will present the good souls to the board of ethics to atone for the accidental creation of the universe.
I've also been called insane, and I dont deny that fact.
Why is he keeping us around? If he doesn't need something, then he wants something or he coud care less about our existance. What does he want, or rather, why are we here if he couldn't care less?
Its not unneccessary work if the world <i>is</i> what he wanted
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is he keeping us around? If he doesn't need something, then he wants something or he coud care less about our existance. What does he want, or rather, why are we here if he couldn't care less?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You sir, have just hit the nail right between the eyes. Why, if God is omnipotent and needs nothing, are we here? You answer that, and am I sure God would give up his seat in heaven for you to sit on.
Your whole arguement defers the point of having personal faith and worship. My fellow forum goer, around two thousand years ago Jesus did exactly what you would want God to do to you. Even when he raised people from the dead and walked on water, his own disciples still doubted him.
1Cor 1:19-31
For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart."
Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
For consider your call, brethren; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth;
but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong,
God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption;
therefore, as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord
Mark 8:11-12:
And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation
Matthew 12:39-40:
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it
Matthew 17:17
O faithless and perverse generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you?
Mat 14:30-31 (To Peter, the disciple):
But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt
Roman 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ
Matthew 7:13-14
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it
John 11:38-40
And again Jesus was deeply troubled. Then they came to the grave. It was a cave with a stone rolled across its entrance. "Roll the stone aside," Jesus told them. But Martha, the dead man's sister, said, "Lord, by now the smell will be terrible because he has been dead for four days." Jesus responded, "Didn't I tell you that you will see God's glory if you believe?
Rom 11:36:
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever
Psalm 19:1:
The heavens declare the glory of God
Rom. 1:20
The invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead
Prov 16:4
The LORD has made all for Himself
Eph 1:5
Having predestined us to the praise of the glory of His grace
Psalm 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God
I really don't want to explain thins in my own words, but the bible should do?
There surely arn't enough answers to everything.
"God works in mysterious ways" may be a justifiable arguement to the believer, but it isnt for me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are we going to start crying about world suffering? Most of it caused by other humans so we have no one to blame but ourselves. A lot of people whine about God not helping starving children and such things, but those people usually aren't helping them either.
Why doesn't God reveal himself? Why would He? What would be the point of faith if believing in God were as easy as opening your eyes.
Faith is hard, life is hard, get used to it.
25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"
27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; <b>blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed</b>."
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That is why God deos not reveal himself in the flesh again. becasue it is a much greater blessing to believe by faith rather than by sight
I've read plenty of your posts <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->