<!--QuoteBegin--NoImagination+Nov 5 2003, 05:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NoImagination @ Nov 5 2003, 05:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, everyone here assumes that the nanosludge is composed of minerals and metals in atomic or molecular form, what if this is not the case? Scientists these days are discovering new ways to create materials which are stronger than steel, among them are types of plastics, and plastics are mostly carbon based.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Metal is the only thing you actually need to transport. Everything organic material can be grown and produced/recycled in any spot suitable for humans to live in. As for the alternative materials, that may be true (it is). Yet, the predominant material in NS is metal, not plastic or carbon (I believe you're referring to carbon-nano technology, which is several thousand times stronger than steel. It would work well as fiber, but I wouldn't bet on using it for construction because while it's strong, it's fairly flexible and you don't want a spaceship to bend unless you're feeling suicidal...). That would sort of indicate that metal is used for construction, not plastic. Unless of course the designers painted the plastic in metalic silver just for the nostalgic look. Transporting plastic which (as you said) is mainly organic matter would not be that good for business either, as it can be produced/reycled in the same way as other organic materials.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Food is also mostly carbon based, so it would be a good food source.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But it would be completely unnecessary. Nano-technology more or less means that you can eat an apple, and, er, get rid of it after digesting, then simply add some electricity (to allow atoms to break/construct new bonds) and nano-machines, and voila: the apple is ready for another go (even thought I'd think twice about eating that apple, knowing where it came from). Why would you want to carry a lot of matter around when you have enough of it already? It would be far better to carry radioactive material or (even better) anti-matter to produce energy for the recycle.
Oh damn, I'm here again... I swear, it was just a quick check before bed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Haha, you have some pretty good points there. I'll get back to this tomorrow.
I have to say that I agree with NoImagination on this topic, all his posts have been based entirely on logic and make a lot of sense to me. Some people will probably (and some already have) complain about an argument like this, but if you dislike it so much, just ignore the topic, it won't kill you to do so. I for one would like to see if a plausible solution can be found to what bio-sludge truly is if it can support the creation of metal and biological/nonmetal objects. Though the likelihood of such a find is rather low.
Firstly for a 'scientist' NoImagination is making an awful lot of assumptions that are not justified.
My explaination: nano-sludge that is purchashed/sold is a much 'purer' form than the stuff that is flowing around the ship. The stuff flowing around the ship is most likely a mixture of the pure 'sludge' and some sort of fuel. Also perhaps the nozzles allow for some control over the out coming 'sludge' with the correct interface. The resource towers can then convert the fuel into energy and use that to create the required molecules. If it was an organic fuel all problems are solved.
Also what is the hardest substance known to man? Yes that is correct diamond. Which is made out of? Yes correct again carbon. As nanites are able to manipulate atoms (presumably) then you could have very exotic material due to the ability to design your materials on a very small scale. For example Carbon Fibre materials to provide strength and flexibility and diamond to provide the 'hardness'.
Finally Time is not just 'another dimension' otherwise you could just as easily walk forwards as go back in time.
Time IS another dimension, it's simply not as obvious as space is. Your moving through time right now, forwards. Going backwards is possible (Root of 9 is +/- 3) but highly improbable.
Also, I would think that if they did have their nanosludge as a mixture of metal/non-metal materials, then a nanofilter would be at work inside the marine RT, while the alien RT would use something akin to liver and kidneys to purify the substance required and, errr, dispose, of any unwanted material present in the nanosludge.
One other thing, I've read in New Scientist that when graphite is under pressure (170,000 Atmospheres) it's molecular form changes to that of a diamond/graphite hybrid that is far harder then diamond (in the experiment conducted, they actually crushed diamone using the hybrid). When the pressure was released, the material returned to it's normal form as ordinary graphite. Nano machines might be able to induce a permanent rather then temporary change in the material.
And it is also concievable that the Kharaa use high amounts of silicon in their armor/structures, which would explain why their so tough.
Also, good old manaul points out that HA is in fact a bunch of polymers, hold on while I quote the manual...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the development of heavy armor has transformed 23rd century warfare, as militaries race to perfect and field test this new technology. A cutting edge, head-to-toe defensive system, this protective shell can absorb tremendous amounts of damage. Beneath the plasticene nano-armor shielding, thousands of independent layers of defensive nanos spread and share kinetic energy, using some of an impact's own force to repair damage. Corrosives don't have much effect either. Combining armor upgrades and heavy armor, a single skilled marine becomes a juggernaut (albeit, a very slow one). Jet packs cannot attach to this bulky, full body armor (and would find its weight difficult to lift if they could).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Plasticene nano-armor shielding..." would denote that HA is made up of far more then metallic substances. A good thing, or else those corrosive spores would react with the raw metal, leading to hydrogen gas being given off. And with all the spore spamming, the second a marine sets off his weapon, marine base go BEWM! In a traditional hydrogen gas explosion <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
The whole fight is not really about the aliens and the marines... It is between the Nanites and the bactiria... the bactiria infects the sludge, thus being able to control the nano machines and they create organic matter that the gorge can use to build, or the organic matter required to evolve from a skulk into a massive onos (where the heck did you think all that extra mass came from in the first place?)
<!--QuoteBegin--Cronos+Nov 5 2003, 08:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Nov 5 2003, 08:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One other thing, I've read in New Scientist that when graphite is under pressure (170,000 Atmospheres) it's molecular form changes to that of a diamond/graphite hybrid that is far harder then diamond (in the experiment conducted, they actually crushed diamone using the hybrid). When the pressure was released, the material returned to it's normal form as ordinary graphite. Nano machines might be able to induce a permanent rather then temporary change in the material. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's incredible! What scientific group performed this experiment? A university? A goverment project?
Of course the energy required to create that much pressure (good lord, 170,000 atmospheres...) might take more than a few nanites can generate. Considering their size, or lack thereof, and the means needed to enact such a pressure change. How did the scientists involved in the experiment generate that pressure and apply it to the graphite?
<a href='http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-10/ci-nmb101503.php' target='_blank'>Heres an Article on the subject</a>, though apparently one has to subscribe to see the articles at new scientist nowadays...
Anyway, there it is, they used a diamond anvil to produce the pressure on the graphite. By the end of the experiment, the graphite was found to have cracked the diamond anvil, indicating that for a time at least, the graphite had become harder then the diamond itself.
Neat stuff, but unrelated to the topic at hand <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
mmm another OT question. when the Kharaa appears on a ship or base, usually all its original occupants have been evacuated already. then they send in the frontiersmen to go whack the aliens.. why don't they just nuke the entire friggin' base/ship?
<!--QuoteBegin--Explosive Fish+Nov 5 2003, 11:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Explosive Fish @ Nov 5 2003, 11:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> mmm another OT question. when the Kharaa appears on a ship or base, usually all its original occupants have been evacuated already. then they send in the frontiersmen to go whack the aliens.. why don't they just nuke the entire friggin' base/ship? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The kharaa are of scientific value. Look closely on ns_bast.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--Explosive Fish+Nov 6 2003, 12:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Explosive Fish @ Nov 6 2003, 12:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->mmm another OT question. when the Kharaa appears on a ship or base, usually all its original occupants have been evacuated already. then they send in the frontiersmen to go whack the aliens.. why don't they just nuke the entire friggin' base/ship?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Our fragile economy cannot afford to lose all those ships and bases.
The biggest problem in arguing the physics is the fact its all based on current human understanding....and we learn new laws and theories on physics all the time. What was previously considered impossible is later improbable then possible then a done deed.
Considering the above point it is not hard to believe there are methods to play with physics that are currently not understood. There are many creatures on earth that have strange traits and abilities that are not fully understood by scientists, so its not inconcievable an alien type organism can evolve/create other manners to manipulate physics.
According to my understanding of the manual...the actual alien is the bacterium, the physical manefistations that do the fighting are created/used by the bacterium as a defence/offence.
Re the point made regarding metals required - The ship(or base) is already constructed and thus does not need to carry metals enough to construct a ship(or base), any damages can be sealed using a carbon based polymer and a supply of spare parts can be stored intact to replace components that absolutely required metallic components, so its feasable the sludge can have a large carbon content.
Energy can be aquired via the ships drive system (or base power supply) which would presumably require a lot of energy to propell the ship and power the various onboard systems. The bacterium net can provide the links required to divert energy to the various alien structures built by the aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--ASnogarD+Nov 6 2003, 01:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ASnogarD @ Nov 6 2003, 01:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The biggest problem in arguing the physics is the fact its all based on current human understanding....and we learn new laws and theories on physics all the time. What was previously considered impossible is later improbable then possible then a done deed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But there are certain 'laws' that have never been broken and were they to be broken would cause a massive upset to physics. The most important idea I can think of is the conservation of energy were that to be disproved alot of people would be starting from scratch in most fields of science.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Time IS another dimension, it's simply not as obvious as space is. Your moving through time right now, forwards. Going backwards is possible (Root of 9 is +/- 3) but highly improbable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Time isn't 'just another dimension'. It is a temporal rather than spatial one and it's important to realise they are different. For example it's relatively obvious how the 'stuff inside a regular shape' changes with extra spatial dimensions:
1D : 'stuff inside' aka ? = l (l is 'side length') 2D : 'stuff inside' aka area = l^2 3D : 'stuff inside' aka volume = l^3 4D : 'stuff inside' aka ? = l^4 etc....
Well I don't know what the 1 and 4 dimension equivalents to area and volume are but you can see how it follows a simple pattern for the 1 and 4 dimension equvalents of squares/cubes.
Notice that an extra temporal dimension will not change the 'stuff inside'. However I can't get my head around two time dimensions at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And what atoms is this pure sludge made of?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well whatever is useful (minerals). You seem to think this has to be metal, so metal if that's what you want.<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As long as we're making assuptions, why not make them good? Anti-matter would be a far better choice. One of the most potent sources of energy discovered in the universe so far. Considering the current research on anti-matter containment, it wouldn't be that far out to say they've managed to figure out a what to store it (magnetic fields comes to mind).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Another needless assumption. Organic fuel may not be as efficient but it would certainly could be viable. Especially as nanites are probably extremely efficient.<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Convert the energy into matter? Do you realize how ridiculous the amount of energy you'd need would be just to create a single building? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You misread the sentence. The energy is required to make the molecules. The matter is readily available in the nano sludge they just require rearranging.<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not. Organic fuel is not nearly potent enough compared to radioactive metals or anti-matter. To move across space, you'd need more organic fuel than ship.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who says that fuel that is mixed with the sludge is used to power the ship? Also organic fuel explains why Kharaa require air (of which the most probably need the oxygen to react with the fuel).
<!--QuoteBegin--Kid-A+Nov 6 2003, 03:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kid-A @ Nov 6 2003, 03:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--ASnogarD+Nov 6 2003, 01:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ASnogarD @ Nov 6 2003, 01:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The biggest problem in arguing the physics is the fact its all based on current human understanding....and we learn new laws and theories on physics all the time. What was previously considered impossible is later improbable then possible then a done deed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But there are certain 'laws' that have never been broken and were they to be broken would cause a massive upset to physics. The most important idea I can think of is the conservation of energy were that to be disproved alot of people would be starting from scratch in most fields of science. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Minor correction - if any of the fundamental laws were broken or exceptions were proven then it may disrupt our understanding of physics not physics itself.
As to the res issue -
How about this. The res is a mass of basic nano material that can be easily configured to whatever requirments , when the aliens utilise it the RT combines the nano material with bacterium material (which pervades the whole ship/base) adding an organic compound to the nano material - by reconfiguring the nano material and added organic material the aliens can utilse this mix to thier requirments. Prehaps the nano material adds mass to stuctures/creatures.
Correct me if I am wrong here but you put foward a notion that heat is the aliens requirment to cap res nodes which equates to alien res ?
Heat is readily available in many other forms and would not require the extensive and delibitating RT system currently employed...in fact a few of the maps have ample amounts of heat generated in the hive locale (eg Furnace ) so why would aliens in that hive need to fight with marines to gain res ?
I am merely enjoying the discussion not trying to be offensive in any way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am merely enjoying the discussion not trying to be offensive in any way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Same here. Let's get one thing straight this is not a serious scientific debate!
I am treating what is written in the manual as <b>fact</b>. And am simply trying to figure out a way that it could work. NoImagination's energy theory whilst sensible is not supported by the manual. However I am quite happy for people to poke holes in my own theory...
Here is my theory condensed again. Please read it like I read yours, this is not a flame war, this is not some kind of "MY IDAEA PWNXORS YUORS!!!" kind of thread. I'm trying to discuss this in a civil matter, unless I call you an idiot, your not one in my view <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The raw material could be a mixture of metallic and non metallic elements, since the only liquid metal is mercury, this would seem to support my hypothesis.
The aliens extract the sludge as the raw matter for building. The aliens use mostly organic matter and use any residual metals in the infestations.
The infestation could play a number of roles, from impeding enemy movement to some kind of storage medium for a redox reaction to produce energy, I dont know, this entire sentence is speculation.
Energy is extracted from the surrounding environment. Chemical reactions are supported by the continual cycling of bacterium through each alien. In essence the kharaa dont breathe as we do, rather their respiration involves oxygen poor bacterium leaving the kharaa body while oxygen rich bacterium enters. This would explain PoD and drowning (more oxygen poor bacterium leaving then entering). This goes under the assumption that all aliens are composed of the bacterium, which the manual supports.
The "steam" coming out of the res nozzles could be explained as volatile elements coming out of solution from the nanosludge.
Two theories can explain the same phenomenon.
Both theories have their flaws.
In yours, the Kharaa meet with a materials crisis.
In mine, the Kharaa meet with an energy crisis.
It's possible that breaking down the nanosludge releases a bounty of chemical energy, in which case the energy for filtration with surplus is supplied.
NoIm, dont take the discussion too close to the bone, it isnt that important, k? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Time isn't 'just another dimension'. It is a temporal rather than spatial one and it's important to realise they are different. For example it's relatively obvious how the 'stuff inside a regular shape' changes with extra spatial dimensions:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Time is of an essence a different kind of dimension. I never likened it to spatial dimensions however. Adding extra dimensions may change objects (1d, 2d, 3d). Time is the fourth dimension. Without time, all things would happen all at once in an instant. Nobody knows quite what time is, but like the dimensions aforementioned stretch spatial dimensions to evermore complexities, so too does time add evermore complexity to reality.
This could get overboard, if necessary take the discussion of time over to discussions while NoIm and I battle it out over Sludge Vs. Energy <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Surely my explaination is the best! It's a mixture of both!
I propose that both fuel and 'minerals' are contained within the 'on-ship' sludge. It's sort of like a sewer system. Organic and inorganic waste is put into it and it can be used to create whatever is required. Organic waste is not really 'used up' as it can be recycled, Inorganic waste however would be used to create objects and if you need to keep them but need more objects you have to get more 'pure' sludge which is mostly minerals.
Another point: To me it appears to be inferred(sp?) that Kharaa have 'nano-bacteria', which is how this nana-gridlock arises, as such they would easily be able to seperate the elements they require from a mixture of elements.
<!--QuoteBegin--NoImagination+Nov 6 2003, 05:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NoImagination @ Nov 6 2003, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> With that in mind, I don't like being given sarcastic remarks about *my* assumptions, when several of the arguments from the other side involved breaking fundamental laws of physics/chemistry and/or going against all reasoning behind method and choice of material within construction while I'm simply stating that maybe nature and science won't do a 180 spin and go in a completely different direction by the time we get to NS-level technology. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I just got out of a methods exam, so I'm not in the state to argue very much. What Sarcasm are you referring to? I havent used sarcasm to my knowledge, perhaps it might come off as sarcasm but the intent never was sarcasm.
Although some arguments here DO break the laws of physics/biology/chemistry, a majority of my arguments do not.
If your going to discuss this, then dont brand me into the "Them" category. I've taken a point of view, but that dosent mean I support every argument in favour of my point of view.
Now, off to catch up to that eight hours of sleep I missed out on...
Two things: First, BACTERIA is the plural of BACTERIUM
Second, I have a new theory.
To kick off, the sludge is a mixture of:
1) Nanites, that can not only catalyse chemical reactions, but are small enough to rearrange atoms of one element into another (yeah, as in cold fusion and fission and all that), and 2) A raw material for the nanites to use to create larger atoms, such as deuterium (Hydrogen-2)
Here's the fun part. The nanites are not merely robots, but are actually nano-cyborgs with an organic component. They are too small to manufacture, so a strain of bacteria (let's say E.Coli) was genetically modified to manufacture the nanites from raw materials, as well as reproducing into the organic component.
The nanites user their biological component as a source of bioelectricity to power their cybernetic systems. They can use the raw material (deuterium) to create atoms of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen etc and from that they can synthesize carbohydrates for energy for the bacterium component. (Sloppy and inefficient, yeah conservation of energy, maybe cold fusion or something. I really don't care.) The machine is linked into the bacterium so that it knows when the bacterium is short on food.
Now, the alien RT produces a virus that infects the bacterium inside each nanite. This virus does not use the nanite bacteria to reproduce, rather it causes the bacteria to keep telling the machine that it needs food, or proteins etc. (or some other material, if you don't believe the Kharaa are carbon-based. Either way it's creating whatever the Kharaa need to create more of <i>their</i> bacteria). The machine does this unquestioningly, and the bacterium uses what it needs and discards the rest.
The discarded portion of the food product is what is gathered by the alien RT. The nanite bacteria eventually overload the machine by creating too high voltage of bioelectricity for the machine to handle. These 'used' nanites are what gets exhaled by the RT.
This theory also explains why the nano-'sludge' is a gas (it contains deuterium, which is merely hydrogen with a neutron added, which is a gas)
<!--QuoteBegin--Raw Evil+Nov 6 2003, 09:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Raw Evil @ Nov 6 2003, 09:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1) Nanites, that can not only catalyse chemical reactions, but are small enough to rearrange atoms of one element into another (yeah, as in cold fusion and fission and all that), modified to manufacture the nanites from raw materials, as well as reproducing into the organic component. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The nanites user their biological component as a source of bioelectricity to power their cybernetic systems. They can use the raw material (deuterium) to create atoms of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen etc and from that they can synthesize carbohydrates for energy for the bacterium component. (Sloppy and inefficient, yeah conservation of energy, maybe cold fusion or something. I really don't care.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's really not feasible that something constructed of atoms can have a reliable maipulation on the scale of the nucleus. The nucleus of an atom is at a scale 10,000 smaller than a atom. It's like a human trying to arrange things at the scale of 1/100th's of a millimetre.
Sorry any model that suggests nanites can change atomic structure isn't really feasible. Even if cold fusion were available it wouldn't be possible to contol it very well. Quantum uncertaintes would get in the way.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kid-A+Nov 7 2003, 05:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kid-A @ Nov 7 2003, 05:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Raw Evil+Nov 6 2003, 09:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Raw Evil @ Nov 6 2003, 09:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1) Nanites, that can not only catalyse chemical reactions, but are small enough to rearrange atoms of one element into another (yeah, as in cold fusion and fission and all that), modified to manufacture the nanites from raw materials, as well as reproducing into the organic component. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The nanites user their biological component as a source of bioelectricity to power their cybernetic systems. They can use the raw material (deuterium) to create atoms of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen etc and from that they can synthesize carbohydrates for energy for the bacterium component. (Sloppy and inefficient, yeah conservation of energy, maybe cold fusion or something. I really don't care.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's really not feasible that something constructed of atoms can have a reliable maipulation on the scale of the nucleus. The nucleus of an atom is at a scale 10,000 smaller than a atom. It's like a human trying to arrange things at the scale of 1/100th's of a millimetre.
Sorry any model that suggests nanites can change atomic structure isn't really feasible. Even if cold fusion were available it wouldn't be possible to contol it very well. Quantum uncertaintes would get in the way. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey, maybe the TSA have invented something that can shrink atoms into smaller sizes, a device that perhaps interferes with the quantum foam or something, allowing the nanite's atomic structure to be smaller than an actual atom.
Even if it can't be explained it's still a fun idea.
Comments
Metal is the only thing you actually need to transport. Everything organic material can be grown and produced/recycled in any spot suitable for humans to live in.
As for the alternative materials, that may be true (it is). Yet, the predominant material in NS is metal, not plastic or carbon (I believe you're referring to carbon-nano technology, which is several thousand times stronger than steel. It would work well as fiber, but I wouldn't bet on using it for construction because while it's strong, it's fairly flexible and you don't want a spaceship to bend unless you're feeling suicidal...). That would sort of indicate that metal is used for construction, not plastic. Unless of course the designers painted the plastic in metalic silver just for the nostalgic look. Transporting plastic which (as you said) is mainly organic matter would not be that good for business either, as it can be produced/reycled in the same way as other organic materials.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Food is also mostly carbon based, so it would be a good food source.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But it would be completely unnecessary. Nano-technology more or less means that you can eat an apple, and, er, get rid of it after digesting, then simply add some electricity (to allow atoms to break/construct new bonds) and nano-machines, and voila: the apple is ready for another go (even thought I'd think twice about eating that apple, knowing where it came from). Why would you want to carry a lot of matter around when you have enough of it already? It would be far better to carry radioactive material or (even better) anti-matter to produce energy for the recycle.
Oh damn, I'm here again... I swear, it was just a quick check before bed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, you have some pretty good points there.
I'll get back to this tomorrow.
Firstly for a 'scientist' NoImagination is making an awful lot of assumptions that are not justified.
My explaination: nano-sludge that is purchashed/sold is a much 'purer' form than the stuff that is flowing around the ship. The stuff flowing around the ship is most likely a mixture of the pure 'sludge' and some sort of fuel. Also perhaps the nozzles allow for some control over the out coming 'sludge' with the correct interface. The resource towers can then convert the fuel into energy and use that to create the required molecules. If it was an organic fuel all problems are solved.
Also what is the hardest substance known to man? Yes that is correct diamond. Which is made out of? Yes correct again carbon. As nanites are able to manipulate atoms (presumably) then you could have very exotic material due to the ability to design your materials on a very small scale. For example Carbon Fibre materials to provide strength and flexibility and diamond to provide the 'hardness'.
Finally Time is not just 'another dimension' otherwise you could just as easily walk forwards as go back in time.
Also, I would think that if they did have their nanosludge as a mixture of metal/non-metal materials, then a nanofilter would be at work inside the marine RT, while the alien RT would use something akin to liver and kidneys to purify the substance required and, errr, dispose, of any unwanted material present in the nanosludge.
One other thing, I've read in New Scientist that when graphite is under pressure (170,000 Atmospheres) it's molecular form changes to that of a diamond/graphite hybrid that is far harder then diamond (in the experiment conducted, they actually crushed diamone using the hybrid). When the pressure was released, the material returned to it's normal form as ordinary graphite. Nano machines might be able to induce a permanent rather then temporary change in the material.
And it is also concievable that the Kharaa use high amounts of silicon in their armor/structures, which would explain why their so tough.
Also, good old manaul points out that HA is in fact a bunch of polymers, hold on while I quote the manual...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the development of heavy armor has transformed 23rd century warfare, as militaries race to perfect and field test this new technology. A cutting edge, head-to-toe defensive system, this protective shell can absorb tremendous amounts of damage. Beneath the plasticene nano-armor shielding, thousands of independent layers of defensive nanos spread and share kinetic energy, using some of an impact's own force to repair damage. Corrosives don't have much effect either. Combining armor upgrades and heavy armor, a single skilled marine becomes a juggernaut (albeit, a very slow one). Jet packs cannot attach to this bulky, full body armor (and would find its weight difficult to lift if they could).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Plasticene nano-armor shielding..." would denote that HA is made up of far more then metallic substances. A good thing, or else those corrosive spores would react with the raw metal, leading to hydrogen gas being given off. And with all the spore spamming, the second a marine sets off his weapon, marine base go BEWM! In a traditional hydrogen gas explosion <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's incredible! What scientific group performed this experiment? A university? A goverment project?
Of course the energy required to create that much pressure (good lord, 170,000 atmospheres...) might take more than a few nanites can generate. Considering their size, or lack thereof, and the means needed to enact such a pressure change. How did the scientists involved in the experiment generate that pressure and apply it to the graphite?
Anyway, there it is, they used a diamond anvil to produce the pressure on the graphite. By the end of the experiment, the graphite was found to have cracked the diamond anvil, indicating that for a time at least, the graphite had become harder then the diamond itself.
Neat stuff, but unrelated to the topic at hand <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
The kharaa are of scientific value. Look closely on ns_bast.
Our fragile economy cannot afford to lose all those ships and bases.
Considering the above point it is not hard to believe there are methods to play with physics that are currently not understood. There are many creatures on earth that have strange traits and abilities that are not fully understood by scientists, so its not inconcievable an alien type organism can evolve/create other manners to manipulate physics.
According to my understanding of the manual...the actual alien is the bacterium, the physical manefistations that do the fighting are created/used by the bacterium as a defence/offence.
Re the point made regarding metals required - The ship(or base) is already constructed and thus does not need to carry metals enough to construct a ship(or base), any damages can be sealed using a carbon based polymer and a supply of spare parts can be stored intact to replace components that absolutely required metallic components, so its feasable the sludge can have a large carbon content.
Energy can be aquired via the ships drive system (or base power supply) which would presumably require a lot of energy to propell the ship and power the various onboard systems. The bacterium net can provide the links required to divert energy to the various alien structures built by the aliens.
But there are certain 'laws' that have never been broken and were they to be broken would cause a massive upset to physics. The most important idea I can think of is the conservation of energy were that to be disproved alot of people would be starting from scratch in most fields of science.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Time IS another dimension, it's simply not as obvious as space is. Your moving through time right now, forwards. Going backwards is possible (Root of 9 is +/- 3) but highly improbable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Time isn't 'just another dimension'. It is a temporal rather than spatial one and it's important to realise they are different. For example it's relatively obvious how the 'stuff inside a regular shape' changes with extra spatial dimensions:
1D : 'stuff inside' aka ? = l (l is 'side length')
2D : 'stuff inside' aka area = l^2
3D : 'stuff inside' aka volume = l^3
4D : 'stuff inside' aka ? = l^4
etc....
Well I don't know what the 1 and 4 dimension equivalents to area and volume are but you can see how it follows a simple pattern for the 1 and 4 dimension equvalents of squares/cubes.
Notice that an extra temporal dimension will not change the 'stuff inside'. However I can't get my head around two time dimensions at all.
But there are certain 'laws' that have never been broken and were they to be broken would cause a massive upset to physics. The most important idea I can think of is the conservation of energy were that to be disproved alot of people would be starting from scratch in most fields of science. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Minor correction - if any of the fundamental laws were broken or exceptions were proven then it may disrupt our understanding of physics not physics itself.
As to the res issue -
How about this. The res is a mass of basic nano material that can be easily configured to whatever requirments , when the aliens utilise it the RT combines the nano material with bacterium material (which pervades the whole ship/base) adding an organic compound to the nano material - by reconfiguring the nano material and added organic material the aliens can utilse this mix to thier requirments. Prehaps the nano material adds mass to stuctures/creatures.
Heat is readily available in many other forms and would not require the extensive and delibitating RT system currently employed...in fact a few of the maps have ample amounts of heat generated in the hive locale (eg Furnace ) so why would aliens in that hive need to fight with marines to gain res ?
I am merely enjoying the discussion not trying to be offensive in any way.
I am treating what is written in the manual as <b>fact</b>. And am simply trying to figure out a way that it could work. NoImagination's energy theory whilst sensible is not supported by the manual. However I am quite happy for people to poke holes in my own theory...
But so is mine.
Here is my theory condensed again. Please read it like I read yours, this is not a flame war, this is not some kind of "MY IDAEA PWNXORS YUORS!!!" kind of thread. I'm trying to discuss this in a civil matter, unless I call you an idiot, your not one in my view <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The raw material could be a mixture of metallic and non metallic elements, since the only liquid metal is mercury, this would seem to support my hypothesis.
The aliens extract the sludge as the raw matter for building. The aliens use mostly organic matter and use any residual metals in the infestations.
The infestation could play a number of roles, from impeding enemy movement to some kind of storage medium for a redox reaction to produce energy, I dont know, this entire sentence is speculation.
Energy is extracted from the surrounding environment. Chemical reactions are supported by the continual cycling of bacterium through each alien. In essence the kharaa dont breathe as we do, rather their respiration involves oxygen poor bacterium leaving the kharaa body while oxygen rich bacterium enters. This would explain PoD and drowning (more oxygen poor bacterium leaving then entering). This goes under the assumption that all aliens are composed of the bacterium, which the manual supports.
The "steam" coming out of the res nozzles could be explained as volatile elements coming out of solution from the nanosludge.
Two theories can explain the same phenomenon.
Both theories have their flaws.
In yours, the Kharaa meet with a materials crisis.
In mine, the Kharaa meet with an energy crisis.
It's possible that breaking down the nanosludge releases a bounty of chemical energy, in which case the energy for filtration with surplus is supplied.
NoIm, dont take the discussion too close to the bone, it isnt that important, k? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Time isn't 'just another dimension'. It is a temporal rather than spatial one and it's important to realise they are different. For example it's relatively obvious how the 'stuff inside a regular shape' changes with extra spatial dimensions:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Time is of an essence a different kind of dimension. I never likened it to spatial dimensions however. Adding extra dimensions may change objects (1d, 2d, 3d). Time is the fourth dimension. Without time, all things would happen all at once in an instant. Nobody knows quite what time is, but like the dimensions aforementioned stretch spatial dimensions to evermore complexities, so too does time add evermore complexity to reality.
This could get overboard, if necessary take the discussion of time over to discussions while NoIm and I battle it out over Sludge Vs. Energy <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Remember guys, friendly debate, not hostile argument <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The kharaa are of scientific value. Look closely on ns_bast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
um..how is that so?
Also, what about bio-warfare? He who controls the Kharaa controls the galaxy...
Also... Knowledge is Power. Encounter your enemy. Know your enemy. Defeat your enemy.
I propose that both fuel and 'minerals' are contained within the 'on-ship' sludge. It's sort of like a sewer system. Organic and inorganic waste is put into it and it can be used to create whatever is required. Organic waste is not really 'used up' as it can be recycled, Inorganic waste however would be used to create objects and if you need to keep them but need more objects you have to get more 'pure' sludge which is mostly minerals.
Another point: To me it appears to be inferred(sp?) that Kharaa have 'nano-bacteria', which is how this nana-gridlock arises, as such they would easily be able to seperate the elements they require from a mixture of elements.
I just got out of a methods exam, so I'm not in the state to argue very much. What Sarcasm are you referring to? I havent used sarcasm to my knowledge, perhaps it might come off as sarcasm but the intent never was sarcasm.
Although some arguments here DO break the laws of physics/biology/chemistry, a majority of my arguments do not.
If your going to discuss this, then dont brand me into the "Them" category. I've taken a point of view, but that dosent mean I support every argument in favour of my point of view.
Now, off to catch up to that eight hours of sleep I missed out on...
Second, I have a new theory.
To kick off, the sludge is a mixture of:
1) Nanites, that can not only catalyse chemical reactions, but are small enough to rearrange atoms of one element into another (yeah, as in cold fusion and fission and all that), and
2) A raw material for the nanites to use to create larger atoms, such as deuterium (Hydrogen-2)
Here's the fun part. The nanites are not merely robots, but are actually nano-cyborgs with an organic component. They are too small to manufacture, so a strain of bacteria (let's say E.Coli) was genetically modified to manufacture the nanites from raw materials, as well as reproducing into the organic component.
The nanites user their biological component as a source of bioelectricity to power their cybernetic systems. They can use the raw material (deuterium) to create atoms of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen etc and from that they can synthesize carbohydrates for energy for the bacterium component. (Sloppy and inefficient, yeah conservation of energy, maybe cold fusion or something. I really don't care.) The machine is linked into the bacterium so that it knows when the bacterium is short on food.
Now, the alien RT produces a virus that infects the bacterium inside each nanite. This virus does not use the nanite bacteria to reproduce, rather it causes the bacteria to keep telling the machine that it needs food, or proteins etc. (or some other material, if you don't believe the Kharaa are carbon-based. Either way it's creating whatever the Kharaa need to create more of <i>their</i> bacteria). The machine does this unquestioningly, and the bacterium uses what it needs and discards the rest.
The discarded portion of the food product is what is gathered by the alien RT. The nanite bacteria eventually overload the machine by creating too high voltage of bioelectricity for the machine to handle. These 'used' nanites are what gets exhaled by the RT.
This theory also explains why the nano-'sludge' is a gas (it contains deuterium, which is merely hydrogen with a neutron added, which is a gas)
Tell me what you think.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The nanites user their biological component as a source of bioelectricity to power their cybernetic systems. They can use the raw material (deuterium) to create atoms of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen etc and from that they can synthesize carbohydrates for energy for the bacterium component. (Sloppy and inefficient, yeah conservation of energy, maybe cold fusion or something. I really don't care.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's really not feasible that something constructed of atoms can have a reliable maipulation on the scale of the nucleus. The nucleus of an atom is at a scale 10,000 smaller than a atom. It's like a human trying to arrange things at the scale of 1/100th's of a millimetre.
Sorry any model that suggests nanites can change atomic structure isn't really feasible. Even if cold fusion were available it wouldn't be possible to contol it very well. Quantum uncertaintes would get in the way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The nanites user their biological component as a source of bioelectricity to power their cybernetic systems. They can use the raw material (deuterium) to create atoms of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen etc and from that they can synthesize carbohydrates for energy for the bacterium component. (Sloppy and inefficient, yeah conservation of energy, maybe cold fusion or something. I really don't care.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's really not feasible that something constructed of atoms can have a reliable maipulation on the scale of the nucleus. The nucleus of an atom is at a scale 10,000 smaller than a atom. It's like a human trying to arrange things at the scale of 1/100th's of a millimetre.
Sorry any model that suggests nanites can change atomic structure isn't really feasible. Even if cold fusion were available it wouldn't be possible to contol it very well. Quantum uncertaintes would get in the way. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, maybe the TSA have invented something that can shrink atoms into smaller sizes, a device that perhaps interferes with the quantum foam or something, allowing the nanite's atomic structure to be smaller than an actual atom.
Even if it can't be explained it's still a fun idea.