Med Spam: Cheap Or A Great Tactic?

DJ_LIQUID · November 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Med Spam: Cheap or a great tactic?</div> I recently played against a marine team where the comm would med spam the marines constantly <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'>

you couldnt attack a marine without having him med spam

your a skulk with a fixed amount of health trying to kill a marine with what is equivelant to 1000+ health

I guess if your the one getting med spam you'd like it but being a alien it is very frustrating

Do you think this is cheap or a good tactic?

Caboose · November 2003

It's a great tactic to keep marines alive, but it's not cheap. If the comm can afford to medspam the WHOLE game, then your alien team must have not donr a very good job at keeping them from having too much res. Medspam is a waste of res. If it is needed, it's good to have. But aliens can gorge rush/medheal eachother and it is just as effective at staying alive.

DJ_LIQUID · November 2003

yea my team wasn't the best at that time

regardless med spam is kinda cheap <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

Necrosis · November 2003

Spore spam is a good counter, plus a couple of OCs. Makes medspam expensive.

Second, in the next patch focus will enable one-bite-kills, which will definitely affect medspam use.

r3dsk4r3 · November 2003

yeah, but in the next patch we will also have catpack+medpack+catpack+medpack spam. which will make it almost impossible to get near marines. medpack spam is expensive though. i like it when comms spam the rines right at the start of the game. no better way to spend starting res than on 40 medpacks. lol

if this isn't possible somehow, please correct me. i hope i'm wrong.

Necrosis · November 2003

You'll still only need one bite or swipe, so assuming you've enough wit to ambush the marines, you'll have remarkably few worries.

The comm will spam packs, his rines all die, he's blown a stack of res on something for no benefit. I can see it getting to be a problem against fully upgraded rines or HA, but by that stage you're fighting a losing battle anyhow and needed to be more aggressive earlier.

Forlorn · November 2003

Med spam is a tatical desicion made by the comm to make sure his marines can continue to influence a given area.

In his choice of who lives, and who dies, the comm effectively is deciding the outcome of the game.

Medspam is vital to balance in NS. It's so easy to beat a marine team that gets no medspam.

Next, if the rines are good enough, they can kill the aliens at the rate at which medspam is given to them, making it so they don't lose too much res.

DragonMech · November 2003

I agree with DJ LIQUID in that medspamming is a bit cheap, but it is an accepted NS tactic.

2_of_Eight · November 2003

If the Marine has 1000+ HP, means the comm spent
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'>1000/50=20
20*2=40</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
40 res on these medpacks.
Now, if you're a Skulk and you're attacking the Marine who's being medspammed, you can consider that you did your job.
You just made the Marine comm waste
4 shotguns
<i>or</i>
2 HMG's
<i>or</i>
2 HA's
<i>or</i>
4 mine packs
<i>or</i>
2 IP's
<i>or</i>
Whatever else.
For only a 0-res Skulk!
You should be proud. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Hunty · November 2003

If the comm has the res to medspam like that.....they must have way too many rts....

Trevelyan · November 2003

Yes... as stated spores counter med spam... but if you see a skilled med spamming com (IE: No shower, directly on the marines) then spores will do you no good as the comm will only drop when the marine is at half health. Lerks however give you an easy way to spike away the health... making having marines staying alive in your presence more expensive then throwing skulks at them.

gekigarion · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Yes... as stated spores counter med spam... but if you see a skilled med spamming com (IE: No shower, directly on the marines) then spores will do you no good as the comm will only drop when the marine is at half health. Lerks however give you an easy way to spike away the health... making having marines staying alive in your presence more expensive then throwing skulks at them. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

So true. As a comm I find it extremely frustrating when my marines cannot kill two spiking lerks and watch their health dwindle away like a fish off a hook.

Necrosis · November 2003

Yarr, you can still medspam through spores, but unless the marines have a gl or the lerk is an utter smacktard, there's no way of directly countering it.

You either sit in the cloud and suck up medspam, or run off. Either way the lerk lives and contributes to the team effort.

And as I say, I would imagine the upcoming focus upgrade would make a coordinated spore/focus attack lethal.

im_lost · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Nov 12 2003, 09:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Yarr, you can still medspam through spores, but unless the marines have a gl or the lerk is an utter smacktard, there's no way of directly countering it.

You either sit in the cloud and suck up medspam, or run off. Either way the lerk lives and contributes to the team effort.

And as I say, I would imagine the upcoming focus upgrade would make a coordinated spore/focus attack lethal.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Except focus will affect bite, not spore. Unless there has been another change that I haven't heard about.

Forlorn · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Nov 13 2003, 01:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Yarr, you can still medspam through spores, but unless the marines have a gl or the lerk is an utter smacktard, there's no way of directly countering it.

You either sit in the cloud and suck up medspam, or run off. Either way the lerk lives and contributes to the team effort.

And as I say, I would imagine the upcoming focus upgrade would make a coordinated spore/focus attack lethal.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
There is a damn good counter to the lerk now in 2.01. You shoot it, and get some medpacks.

In 2.1, it won't be as good, as a lerk will simply destroy you with bite.

DrunkenSailor · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 13 2003, 09:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Nov 13 2003, 01:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Yarr, you can still medspam through spores, but unless the marines have a gl or the lerk is an utter smacktard, there's no way of directly countering it.

You either sit in the cloud and suck up medspam, or run off. Either way the lerk lives and contributes to the team effort.

And as I say, I would imagine the upcoming focus upgrade would make a coordinated spore/focus attack lethal. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
There is a damn good counter to the lerk now in 2.01. You shoot it, and get some medpacks.

In 2.1, it won't be as good, as a lerk will simply destroy you with bite.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
There's a damn good counter to that too, though. A full shotgun blast kills a lerk. It's worth nothing that we'll actually see this happen to biting lerks in 2.1.

Norml_E_High · November 2003

A commander medspamming his marines in a lerks gas clouds is pure beauty. It makes the lerk worth more than they are usually. Because if the commander is heavily spamming, that means every time the marine lose 1 point of health in the cloud, the pick up a medpack. Not only is that wasting the medpack, because it could have healed alot more, but it makes the comm drop more. This is a good thing to see happening for the lerk. When the commander spams medpacks for his marine, even if you don't kill them, your making them waste more res than they can get by killing you, so its a win win situation.

Insanity_Gizmo · November 2003

Hrm.... Not only do you have that marine's attention, you also have the comm's attention, activly wasting resources all for little old you. You should be proud.

Although, I think it would be funny if Aliens could to use a few of these items, to make the Commander think twice before spamming. You know, like have the gorge spit melt the metal on the coating of the bullets in the ammopack and have it explode, or eating healthpacks for a few points of health, or even a skulk sneaking into the marine base and stealing one of the HAs to gain instant level 4 carapace, or better yet, become JETPACK SKULKS!

Who says Lerks need a bitegun, anyways?

Necrosis · November 2003

I never said focus affects spore. What I DID say was that spore coordinated with focus attacks would be very powerful.

Forlorn, in the bit you quoted, you can clearly see I mention gls. No intelligent lerk is really going to put itself in a position to be hit by shotguns while spore spamming.

As for 2.1 shaped stuff, well we'll just have to wait and see. TBH I really don't see lerks getting too close unless they're using silence, since the hitboxes will be fixed and thus even basic LMGs can flatten them.

TeoH · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (r3dsk4r3 @ Nov 12 2003, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> i like it when comms spam the rines right at the start of the game. no better way to spend starting res than on 40 medpacks. lol  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
On the contrary, right at the start of the game is the perfect time to spend 40 res on medpacks. Setting aside some resources for meds to ensure you win a crucial early fight is good play, proper use of med packs is one of the most important roles of the commander.

Food for thought: With the RFK system, every kill makes on average 2 resources. If you alter the outcome of a fight from a skulk killing a marine, to a marine killing a skulk, you not only gain 2 resources from the kill but deny 2 resources from the skulk. The net gain could be said to be equivalent to 4 resources. Even if this fight meant nothing, was not in a key location, and no buildings or territory was at stake, you could still justify the use of at least 2 med packs in every close confrontation. The more likely scenario is that all battles won or lost alter your control of the map significantly and are worth far more. The value of preventing alien resource expansion at the start of the game and cutting their resources down to nothing is almost unmeasurable. So the guide to how many medpacks you should use to accomplish this task and cripple the alien team right from the start is:

However many it takes.

Forlorn · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Nov 14 2003, 07:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (r3dsk4r3 @ Nov 12 2003, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> i like it when comms spam the rines right at the start of the game. no better way to spend starting res than on 40 medpacks. lol </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
On the contrary, right at the start of the game is the perfect time to spend 40 res on medpacks. Setting aside some resources for meds to ensure you win a crucial early fight is good play, proper use of med packs is one of the most important roles of the commander.

Food for thought: With the RFK system, every kill makes on average 2 resources. If you alter the outcome of a fight from a skulk killing a marine, to a marine killing a skulk, you not only gain 2 resources from the kill but deny 2 resources from the skulk. The net gain could be said to be equivalent to 4 resources. Even if this fight meant nothing, was not in a key location, and no buildings or territory was at stake, you could still justify the use of at least 2 med packs in every close confrontation. The more likely scenario is that all battles won or lost alter your control of the map significantly and are worth far more. The value of preventing alien resource expansion at the start of the game and cutting their resources down to nothing is almost unmeasurable. So the guide to how many medpacks you should use to accomplish this task and cripple the alien team right from the start is:

However many it takes.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Agreed. Keep in mind that denying 2 res to aliens is more than just 2 marine res... it's individual, and that counts for A LOT more than marine res.

Haze · November 2003

Spores = counter to med spam.

Stakhanov · November 2003

Have you ever seen a veteran medspamming comm on a pub game ? It's just too unfair. Your alien team has to devise clan-like strategies to win , even if the marines are downright sloppy. Comm elecs res , upgrades , give shotguns to the few competent players , and medspams like there's no tomorrow. You can't kill medspammed spawnkilling marines in the hive room... you just can't (try defending Satcom against 3 medspammed marines) : 2-3 shotguns reach the hive room , hive goes down while any alien trying to defend it is killed , GG.

Before you say that medspam is expensive , consider the price of HA/JP tech. Or phased sieges. Or shotgun rushes. Medspam IS cheap , for the incredible advantage it gives (temporary invincibility)

As for the supposed "lerk counter" : since when is it sane to attack 3 invincible marines ? Lerk most likely dies before the comm drops a 15th medpack on the marines fighting it , so it is useless. Smart comms don't medpack 91 HP marines , but wait before they reach 50-60 HPs.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>aliens can gorge rush/medheal eachother and it is just as effective at staying alive.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Healspray has a cooldown delay , and doesn't help against shotgun blasts for exemple. Gorge rushes are extremely risky tactics that can be countered in so many ways (mines , shotguns , hive relocation) while medspam can be done anywhere , on one or 6 marines , at the base or at the hive.

Focus might limit medspam early game , but as soon as armor 1 (the usual choice) is done it is possible again (though possibly more expensive , I don't know) ; with the welder in 4th slot , I foresee medspammed armor 1 welder rushes on hives.

We badly need a medpack dropping delay , at least longer than skulk bite's cooldown. It is total nonsense and isn't fixed yet. I hope Flayra will finally change his mind and fix it once cheap cat/medspam blitz strats are overused.

DJ_LIQUID · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stakhanov @ Nov 15 2003, 07:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Have you ever seen a veteran medspamming comm on a pub game ? It's just too unfair. Your alien team has to devise clan-like strategies to win , even if the marines are downright sloppy. Comm elecs res , upgrades , give shotguns to the few competent players , and medspams like there's no tomorrow. You can't kill medspammed spawnkilling marines in the hive room... you just can't (try defending Satcom against 3 medspammed marines) : 2-3 shotguns reach the hive room , hive goes down while any alien trying to defend it is killed , GG.

Before you say that medspam is expensive , consider the price of HA/JP tech. Or phased sieges. Or shotgun rushes. Medspam IS cheap , for the incredible advantage it gives (temporary invincibility)

As for the supposed "lerk counter" : since when is it sane to attack 3 invincible marines ? Lerk most likely dies before the comm drops a 15th medpack on the marines fighting it , so it is useless. Smart comms don't medpack 91 HP marines , but wait before they reach 50-60 HPs.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>aliens can gorge rush/medheal eachother and it is just as effective at staying alive.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Healspray has a cooldown delay , and doesn't help against shotgun blasts for exemple. Gorge rushes are extremely risky tactics that can be countered in so many ways (mines , shotguns , hive relocation) while medspam can be done anywhere , on one or 6 marines , at the base or at the hive.

Focus might limit medspam early game , but as soon as armor 1 (the usual choice) is done it is possible again (though possibly more expensive , I don't know) ; with the welder in 4th slot , I foresee medspammed armor 1 welder rushes on hives.

We badly need a medpack dropping delay , at least longer than skulk bite's cooldown. It is total nonsense and isn't fixed yet. I hope Flayra will finally change his mind and fix it once cheap cat/medspam blitz strats are overused.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
thank you <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

that was very well written <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

couldnt agree more <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

RaVe · November 2003

Spores take away so little health, yet they waste a medpack they could use to regain more. Even after they get to the 50-60 health line, because Spores still take effect there, unless it isn't 'Medspamming' but 'Selective Med Dropping'

Medspamming although sort of cheap to some degree, is a legit tactic, but look on the bright side, if they're low on the no. of RTs then you have already done your job by res denial, unless they magically get 3 RFK for every kill they got <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

Problem is you or your team have been either :

a) Dying too much, far too excessively
b) Not keeping the pressure on their resources too much

Fix those up and you'll see less medspamming, or hit me in the face with a branding iron.
BTW, this topic looks like it belongs in Kharaa Strategy.

chia-ono · November 2003

Medspamming is not a tatic, it is just dropping medkits near marines. The marines do not automatically get healed by the pile of medkits, he has to be aware to step into these kits. I said it isn't a tatic because it is skillless, any shmoe can do this.

However, the ability to aim directly above the marine and supply medkits when around 50% health is a skill valuable to rts players. If we do away with medkits or give it a cooldown for example, you're punishing players who are skilled in the rts element. It is the same as saying lmgs should have a 30 bullets and longer reload time for players who are skilled in the fps element.

If you're saying that commander who can aim well and has a cool head not to med players over 50% health is unbalancing the game, you should think hard about what most games are about. Good players play good,...duh?

If we actually do away with medkits and tighten the arc of expertise (or complain about everything that makes a player good, ie. fades) by this or other methods about commander capabilities, there wouldn't be a difference from one commander to another, everyone will be mediocre. We might as well let computers command for us.

However, the random dropping of medkits on a huge pile is downright stupid. It is skillless and worthless. I think it should be controlled somehow to punish those who spam it skillessly in a single room. Perhaps limit the amount of medkit that is visable in a single room? However, this usually only happen in games where the marines are dominating the whole game. If in that case there really is no point in complaining. It is their resources, they can spam jetpacks for all I care.

Geronimo · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (r3dsk4r3 @ Nov 12 2003, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> yeah, but in the next patch we will also have catpack+medpack+catpack+medpack spam. which will make it almost impossible to get near marines. medpack spam is expensive though. i like it when comms spam the rines right at the start of the game. no better way to spend starting res than on 40 medpacks. lol

if this isn't possible somehow, please correct me. i hope i'm wrong.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Good comms usually hit right on, right at the time of the bite. Thats why 2 medpacks = lvl3 armour early on.

The res you waste are usually repaid to an extent by the rfk.

Anyway, aliens need to counter this by making small damage portions fast...spikes, gas, healspray and parasites are good ways to waste marine res...

Med Spam: Cheap Or A Great Tactic?

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