Marine Tech Needs To Change...
uranium_235
Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9478Banned
Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9478Banned
So I'm in another thread typing out why I think Level 3 upgrades for marines are vastly overpowered... when I realized something: Marine Tech seems to 'jump' instead of 'ooze' like the aliens do, and it's got a very very poor mix of overpowered / underpowered parts to it.
Anyway, this is just a rant I've had since 2.0. Feels good to get it out.
For the aliens, their tech system is very fluid. When a hive goes up, it benefits all lifeforms in various ways, some more then others. When upgrade chambers are built, it'll give different abilities. There's actually 5 'pieces' to the alien tech tree:
1) Hives
2) Lifeforms
3) Defense Chambers
4) Movement Chambers
5) Sensory Chambers
There's really no set way to use the alien tech. It'll come at various times, sort of in 'upgrade waves', or it'll trickle in. The hive may go up, but no chambers may be dropped for another two or three minutes.
The marine tech, here, the flawed one, has 7 'pieces' to their upgrades.
1) Weapon Upgrades
2) Armor Upgrades
3) Adv. Weapon Tech
4) Adv. Equipment Tech
5, 6, 7) Misc. Upgrades (This counts as 3 as there are lots of important and powerful parts to this: Siege Cannons, Phase Gates, Motion Tracking)
Now here's the problem: Level 3 weapon and armor upgrades should be roughly equivilent to two types of level 3 chambers. Because the marine tech tree is much larger, in practice, they should actually be less. However, level 3, even level 2 upgrades are too powerful. Many games end with the marines just having Weapon, Armor upgrades, and perhaps a couple of the 'Misc' upgrades.
One part of the equation almost never enters: The Adv. Weapon Tech and Adv. Equipment Tech. When they do enter, it's almost ALWAYS when they're together, and it's almost always (Almost. Comebacks are possible) game over for the aliens.
Now why on earth does the marine tech tree, a larger one, overpower the alien tech tree in nearly every single aspect?
Let's say the top of the tech tree is equal to 1. Each marine 'piece' to their upgrade tree should only count as roughly 0.14 of the tech tree. Each piece of the alien tech tree should be equal to 0.2. Thusly, level 3 weapon upgrades should be slightly inferior to... say, level 3 defense chambers.
Currently, the marine tech tree equates to a total of roughly 1.5 instead, but the higher upgrades are worth about .4, and the lower upgrades are worth peanuts. The result: Aliens have it easy on marines in the beginning, but impossible at the end. The teams may be even, both may be at the top of their tech tree, and the players could be playing skill-clones of themselves, but the odds never look good when marines are at the top of their tree.
So?
The marine tech tree needs to be changed:
1) Weapon upgrades should NOT be a substitute for Adv Weapon Tech. Adv Weapon Tech should be roughly equal to the alien lifeform upgrades: When Item A isn't enough, change to Item B. However, the light machine gun (Key word there LIGHT) is capable of handling every situation on it's own. Only 2 clips at level 0 to kill a level 3 carapaced onos? Please... that's not right.
2) Adv. Weapon Tech shouldn't have the '<b>OH **** HMGS! SHOTGUNS!</b>' effect it does. It should simply be... a change in how the marine handles the situation. Maybe gorges, or lerks, or fades, (or something) should scream '<b>OH **** HMGS!</b>', but the ENTIRE TEAM shouldn't have to worry. There should be a HARD COUNTER to them. Instead, the marines get all the hard counters (Cloaking / Sensor Scan, Lerks / HA, etc.) and all the aliens get are soft (very soft. Jell-o soft) counters.
Do HAs worry about lerks?
Do light marines worry about gorges?
Do HAs fear Onos and fades as much as LA?
Do Jetpack marines fear onos and O Chambers?
No, no, no, and no.
So why do Onos, Fade, Skulk, Gorge, and Lerk worry about Light Machine Guns, Grenade Launchers, Shotguns, And HMGs?
A possible way to fix this would be to:
<i>1) Drastically reduce the effectiveness of level 3 upgrades. They should confer a SLIGHT BONUS to the weapon, not turn it into a depleted-uranium-tipped HEAT launcher. They're costly, sure, but keep in mind they're global, and they're permenant. A level 3 LMG shouldn't be as powerful as a slightly watered-down HMG. I don't think Level 3 armor is as guilty as being overpowered as weapons, but I think level 1 armor should be equal to what it is now, and slightly reduce vanilla armor values.
2) Slightly decrease the cost of weapons, reduce the time it takes to upgrade the armory, and increase the costs of the 'Misc UPgrades'.
3) Give every gun a special property. Light machine guns, for example, should do less damage to Fades, and just barely scratch an onos. Shotguns should do modest damage to everything, but should do almost no damage to structures. Grenades should do some friendly fire when they explode. Heavy Machine Guns should have much less accuracy then they do now, and should reduce the turning rate of a marine (Considering the poor accuracy is only a problem in... like... Viaduct and massive hallways, and aliens have almost no ranged attacks, it's not much of a drawback, now, is it?). Then lock mouse sensitivity during the game so it can't be boosted when grabbing an HMG.
The result? Instead of super-death-weapons all guns are now at level 3, the guns are suited for a certain ROLE, are cheaper so commanders hand them out more often, and have a HARD COUNTER. HMGs, for example, can't track faster targets. Grenade Launchers aren't wise to use in a crowd.</i>
What else? Well we've slightly solved the problem in marine tech: Instead of upgrades that focus on <b>KILL DEATH DESTROY</b>, they focus on EXPANDING the marine versatility a bit, and change how the handle situations.
However, we need to look at the other side: Hives, and Endgame. Frankly, they're underpowered in a few cases. Leap, for example, isn't too much of a hassle for marines to handle. Even down a modest length corridor, a leaping skulk will only get halfway and be gunned down. It could do with a damage boost, or just a quicker leap in general. <b>Nothing too much.</b> Leap is okay how it is, but could stand to be a bit better and more versatile. Metabolize is hardly worthy of the 50 resource investment and 3 minutes. Xenocide requires a player to DIE, and it won't even take out a light marine at level 3 armor, possibly even level 2. They could do with a bit (Just a tad, and only a few) of beefing up, so a hive is a bit more of a priority for certain stages in the game. Ha.ze suggested that hives bump up the armor and HP of aliens, maybe even give them more powerful attacks, and I agree. (Sorry for saying 'A BIT' everywhere. I know some people's monitors don't show large chunks of reason and logic)
Finally, endgame. An onos might be a counter to a small group of HA marines, but that's a 100 res creature that can STILL die fairly easilly, and takes a long time to acquire. Webs are too late in the game to work. There's really only one solution: Onos, or throw your skulk selves at them and take them down by attrition. But what counters jetpacks? Spores are too ineffective. Spikes are going away. Offense Chambers are loosing their accuracy. I sense problems... already many hives are EASILLY destroyed by jetpackers due to the manuverability greater then a blinking fade on crack, and the capability to carry massive hardware. I think the penalties for weight on a jetpack need to be stiffer. Instead of just more fuel drain, put a 'thrust' curve on the jetpack, so with heavier weapons, they can only reach a certain height before floating back down to the ground.
<b>Addendum 1</b>
Heavy Armor. Now, you have light armor to start off with. You'll gradually get your armor upgrades up to Light Level 3. Then sooner or later, the commander may drop heavy armor. Now you've gone from minimal protection, slowly increased, then suddenly you've more them DOUBLED your effective armor rating. This is what I'm talking about: The marine tech makes such massive LEAPS it completely overcomes the aliens.
Basically, maybe make the jetpack, and heavy armor, have researches of their own. Heavy Armor has to research it's own levels of armor upgrades, but the cost or time of researching and buying HA is slightly dropped to compensate for the increased time sink. Jetpacks at level 0 provide nothing but a jumping boost upwards. More research allows it to lift more weight, longer, and higher.
Anyway, this is just a rant I've had since 2.0. Feels good to get it out.
For the aliens, their tech system is very fluid. When a hive goes up, it benefits all lifeforms in various ways, some more then others. When upgrade chambers are built, it'll give different abilities. There's actually 5 'pieces' to the alien tech tree:
1) Hives
2) Lifeforms
3) Defense Chambers
4) Movement Chambers
5) Sensory Chambers
There's really no set way to use the alien tech. It'll come at various times, sort of in 'upgrade waves', or it'll trickle in. The hive may go up, but no chambers may be dropped for another two or three minutes.
The marine tech, here, the flawed one, has 7 'pieces' to their upgrades.
1) Weapon Upgrades
2) Armor Upgrades
3) Adv. Weapon Tech
4) Adv. Equipment Tech
5, 6, 7) Misc. Upgrades (This counts as 3 as there are lots of important and powerful parts to this: Siege Cannons, Phase Gates, Motion Tracking)
Now here's the problem: Level 3 weapon and armor upgrades should be roughly equivilent to two types of level 3 chambers. Because the marine tech tree is much larger, in practice, they should actually be less. However, level 3, even level 2 upgrades are too powerful. Many games end with the marines just having Weapon, Armor upgrades, and perhaps a couple of the 'Misc' upgrades.
One part of the equation almost never enters: The Adv. Weapon Tech and Adv. Equipment Tech. When they do enter, it's almost ALWAYS when they're together, and it's almost always (Almost. Comebacks are possible) game over for the aliens.
Now why on earth does the marine tech tree, a larger one, overpower the alien tech tree in nearly every single aspect?
Let's say the top of the tech tree is equal to 1. Each marine 'piece' to their upgrade tree should only count as roughly 0.14 of the tech tree. Each piece of the alien tech tree should be equal to 0.2. Thusly, level 3 weapon upgrades should be slightly inferior to... say, level 3 defense chambers.
Currently, the marine tech tree equates to a total of roughly 1.5 instead, but the higher upgrades are worth about .4, and the lower upgrades are worth peanuts. The result: Aliens have it easy on marines in the beginning, but impossible at the end. The teams may be even, both may be at the top of their tech tree, and the players could be playing skill-clones of themselves, but the odds never look good when marines are at the top of their tree.
So?
The marine tech tree needs to be changed:
1) Weapon upgrades should NOT be a substitute for Adv Weapon Tech. Adv Weapon Tech should be roughly equal to the alien lifeform upgrades: When Item A isn't enough, change to Item B. However, the light machine gun (Key word there LIGHT) is capable of handling every situation on it's own. Only 2 clips at level 0 to kill a level 3 carapaced onos? Please... that's not right.
2) Adv. Weapon Tech shouldn't have the '<b>OH **** HMGS! SHOTGUNS!</b>' effect it does. It should simply be... a change in how the marine handles the situation. Maybe gorges, or lerks, or fades, (or something) should scream '<b>OH **** HMGS!</b>', but the ENTIRE TEAM shouldn't have to worry. There should be a HARD COUNTER to them. Instead, the marines get all the hard counters (Cloaking / Sensor Scan, Lerks / HA, etc.) and all the aliens get are soft (very soft. Jell-o soft) counters.
Do HAs worry about lerks?
Do light marines worry about gorges?
Do HAs fear Onos and fades as much as LA?
Do Jetpack marines fear onos and O Chambers?
No, no, no, and no.
So why do Onos, Fade, Skulk, Gorge, and Lerk worry about Light Machine Guns, Grenade Launchers, Shotguns, And HMGs?
A possible way to fix this would be to:
<i>1) Drastically reduce the effectiveness of level 3 upgrades. They should confer a SLIGHT BONUS to the weapon, not turn it into a depleted-uranium-tipped HEAT launcher. They're costly, sure, but keep in mind they're global, and they're permenant. A level 3 LMG shouldn't be as powerful as a slightly watered-down HMG. I don't think Level 3 armor is as guilty as being overpowered as weapons, but I think level 1 armor should be equal to what it is now, and slightly reduce vanilla armor values.
2) Slightly decrease the cost of weapons, reduce the time it takes to upgrade the armory, and increase the costs of the 'Misc UPgrades'.
3) Give every gun a special property. Light machine guns, for example, should do less damage to Fades, and just barely scratch an onos. Shotguns should do modest damage to everything, but should do almost no damage to structures. Grenades should do some friendly fire when they explode. Heavy Machine Guns should have much less accuracy then they do now, and should reduce the turning rate of a marine (Considering the poor accuracy is only a problem in... like... Viaduct and massive hallways, and aliens have almost no ranged attacks, it's not much of a drawback, now, is it?). Then lock mouse sensitivity during the game so it can't be boosted when grabbing an HMG.
The result? Instead of super-death-weapons all guns are now at level 3, the guns are suited for a certain ROLE, are cheaper so commanders hand them out more often, and have a HARD COUNTER. HMGs, for example, can't track faster targets. Grenade Launchers aren't wise to use in a crowd.</i>
What else? Well we've slightly solved the problem in marine tech: Instead of upgrades that focus on <b>KILL DEATH DESTROY</b>, they focus on EXPANDING the marine versatility a bit, and change how the handle situations.
However, we need to look at the other side: Hives, and Endgame. Frankly, they're underpowered in a few cases. Leap, for example, isn't too much of a hassle for marines to handle. Even down a modest length corridor, a leaping skulk will only get halfway and be gunned down. It could do with a damage boost, or just a quicker leap in general. <b>Nothing too much.</b> Leap is okay how it is, but could stand to be a bit better and more versatile. Metabolize is hardly worthy of the 50 resource investment and 3 minutes. Xenocide requires a player to DIE, and it won't even take out a light marine at level 3 armor, possibly even level 2. They could do with a bit (Just a tad, and only a few) of beefing up, so a hive is a bit more of a priority for certain stages in the game. Ha.ze suggested that hives bump up the armor and HP of aliens, maybe even give them more powerful attacks, and I agree. (Sorry for saying 'A BIT' everywhere. I know some people's monitors don't show large chunks of reason and logic)
Finally, endgame. An onos might be a counter to a small group of HA marines, but that's a 100 res creature that can STILL die fairly easilly, and takes a long time to acquire. Webs are too late in the game to work. There's really only one solution: Onos, or throw your skulk selves at them and take them down by attrition. But what counters jetpacks? Spores are too ineffective. Spikes are going away. Offense Chambers are loosing their accuracy. I sense problems... already many hives are EASILLY destroyed by jetpackers due to the manuverability greater then a blinking fade on crack, and the capability to carry massive hardware. I think the penalties for weight on a jetpack need to be stiffer. Instead of just more fuel drain, put a 'thrust' curve on the jetpack, so with heavier weapons, they can only reach a certain height before floating back down to the ground.
<b>Addendum 1</b>
Heavy Armor. Now, you have light armor to start off with. You'll gradually get your armor upgrades up to Light Level 3. Then sooner or later, the commander may drop heavy armor. Now you've gone from minimal protection, slowly increased, then suddenly you've more them DOUBLED your effective armor rating. This is what I'm talking about: The marine tech makes such massive LEAPS it completely overcomes the aliens.
Basically, maybe make the jetpack, and heavy armor, have researches of their own. Heavy Armor has to research it's own levels of armor upgrades, but the cost or time of researching and buying HA is slightly dropped to compensate for the increased time sink. Jetpacks at level 0 provide nothing but a jumping boost upwards. More research allows it to lift more weight, longer, and higher.
Comments
Anyway, about what you said, I feel I would disagree.
Right now, NS is kinda balanced already.
HMGs does poorly against Lerks from faraway or Skulks from EXTREME upclose.
GLs do poorly against ANY alien thats close.
Shotguns do poorly against all aliens that attack from far.
Mines do poorly against the alien smart enough to avoid them.
LMGs do poorly against larger aliens like Onos unless you know precisely where is the hitbox.
Pistols do poorly against OCs, Gorge, Fade and Onos.
Knife do poorly against OCs, Skulks, Lerks, Fade and Onos.
Jets do badly against experienced Fades and very badly against Lerks.
HAs do badly against Fade's Acid Rocket, Onos and Lerks which are hiding in a good area which allows them to snipe HAs without the HAs finding it.
Ive seen onos run into a large room,kill some marines and run out...all the while having your so-called overpowered level 3 LMG fire on it by at least 6 marines.Technically,the onos should be dead.Unfornately the hitbox is the size of the gordon model,and even if you aim for the lower half of the onos,chances are bullets will spread out into the non-hitbox areas.Also lets not forget there are certain cilient commands out there that make you take lots of damage(or appear to).Its very obvious who these people are.....1 onos runs into a room and tries to take on a whole HA train by itself,and naturally dies pretty fast.These people run in,devour,run out,all the while taking 6 level 3 HMG fire.
Forgive me for not reading your whole post but try starting with a good premise first. TSA and Kharaa are supposed to be different.
on a side note, you were talking about how late in the game if marines get all their upgrades, they win? well, all i have to say is that aliens are SUPPOSED to attack early, because they always have the advantage when marines lack upgrades. Marines have to survive until they can get the upgrades, which is why the aliens have to prevent them from getting them.
That has little to do with his post.
Hyperion2010: So you're saying that aliens SHOULD lose if the game becomes rather lengthy, and that they should instead zerg rush every round if they want to win? Sounds like great fun. Not.
Focus should be a similar upgrade - I personally think restricting it to slot 1 was a bad idea for the nerfs its gotten (if you want to nerf focus with its RoF restriction, then it really stands that it should apply to all attackforms). Just the damage upgrade itself creates a sort of tech war - the marines working to get the counters to the alien upgrades, while the aliens are forced to think on what upgrades the marines might be getting.
on a side note, you were talking about how late in the game if marines get all their upgrades, they win? well, all i have to say is that aliens are SUPPOSED to attack early, because they always have the advantage when marines lack upgrades. Marines have to survive until they can get the upgrades, which is why the aliens have to prevent them from getting them. [/QUOTE]
Well look at all RTS games:
Sure, the game could be over quirckly in the beginning. Tank rush your enemy, or exploit weakneses in their strategy, and just get enough of an advantage that you can lock them into their base and just finish it off.
However, if the game doesn't end quickly, you advance to midgame. Where you get... fighter jets, catapults, what-have-you, and your enemy gets, more or less, the same thing. Maybe he gets powerful anti-air defenses.
Anyway, if you can't even end the game THEN, it advances to endgame. Nuclear Weapon, Ion Cannons, Phalanx, Trebuchet. No side has an advantage. The nuke takes a long time to arm, and is good for broad death and destruction (As well as morally crushing your enemy) and the ion cannon is quick to arm, and can destroy more precise targets.
Instead, the aliens get... maybe Mammoth Tanks, but the marines get Mammoth Tanks in addition to a nuclear weapon or two. The marines hold the upper hand in this end.
@Hunty: That's a soft counter. Instead of it being an instant quick counter to HA, it's only a soft counter in the sense that, even though it's a 100 res investment, top of the tech tree, it still takes a ton of skill, luck, and divine intervention to actually use. The marine have no soft counters. Everything is a 'here and NOW' counter to the alien tech. Marine skill and counters are as deep as how skillfully they aim. Now we'll have to see what Flayra does to the onos in 2.1. Maybe it was supposed to fall quickly by design, or maybe all his playtesters were missing the onos so much it was stronger then it should be.
Anyway, as it stands now, the easiest way to kill an onos is to jump at it, crouch, and unload into it's hitbox. The onos will have trouble tracking you, and will be taking an assload of damage at the same time.
[quote]HMGs does poorly against Lerks from faraway or Skulks from EXTREME upclose.
[/quote]
Yes, the HMG isn't too decent against lerks, but what'd I say in post? 1) HMGs almost ALWAYS are deployed at the same time heavy armor is, and 2) The range doesn't really matter in most maps. There's only a few parts where range is an issue (ns_nothing). Furthermore, I disagree on the 'up-close skulks' thing... just because it's no harder to hit a skulk up close with an HMG then it is with an LMG, except in this case the skulk dies 2.5x faster.
[quote]GLs do poorly against ANY alien thats close.[/quote]
Not true, which is why I said friendly fire for grenades. It's a very common tactic that when an alien is attacking your base, or your buddies, you just fill the area with grenades. The alien dies, your friends are perfectly safe. Lame.
[quote]Shotguns do poorly against all aliens that attack from far.[/quote]
Yes, but one thing ot remember: What sort of ranged alien attacks are there? Spike is gone. Spore is easilly countered if you just keep the marines moving through it, then drop a couple medpacks. Acid Rocket, sure, but that's end-game. Shotguns are early-game. Spit? Don't make me laugh. There's just not enough counters to shotguns. Even O Chambers don't scare a shotgunner. He just runs up, shoots it 3 times, the commander gives him a medpack, and it's on to the next.
[quote]Mines do poorly against the alien smart enough to avoid them.[/quote]
Actually I have a problem with mines being underpowered. I wish they had just a slightly 'larger' detection range in front of them, so it was harder to sneak past them.
[quote]LMGs do poorly against larger aliens like Onos unless you know precisely where is the hitbox.[/quote]
That's a bad counter for various reasons.
[quote]Pistols do poorly against OCs, Gorge, Fade and Onos.[/quote]
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> Wow. Hardly. It takes less then 2 clips to kill a fade at level 0 pistol. Considering the pistol is supreme at range, it's perfect for hitting that blinking away fade in the back as he runs.
[quote]Knife do poorly against OCs, Skulks, Lerks, Fade and Onos.[/quote]
It's a knife, it should suck, and it does...
[quote]Jets do badly against experienced Fades and very badly against Lerks.[/quote]
Fades are a soft counter (A VERY soft counter, at that), and I could equally say 'Fades die to extremely experienced Jetpackers', because it's true. A jetpacker flying around in the middle of the room will be impossible for a fade to attack. One sliding along the walls and ceiling is an easier target. Furthermore, the only counter lerks give to it will be spores in 2.1.
[quote]HAs do badly against Fade's Acid Rocket, Onos and Lerks which are hiding in a good area which allows them to snipe HAs without the HAs finding it. [/quote]
Again, no spikes = no HA counter. Onos to a newbie group of HAs, sure, but try stomping a group of HAs that are spread out jumping like made, all aiming for your hitbox.[/quote]
I thought he was talking about level 3 weapons. A Skulk is dead after 5 HMG bullets with level 3. Lerks, I guess, but what are they going to do--spike an HA to death?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->GLs do poorly against ANY alien thats close. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. But what GLer is dumb enough to rambo? It's for destroying structures, not units, obviously.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shotguns do poorly against all aliens that attack from far. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, yeah, but it takes about 2 seconds to switch to your pistols--plus, how many aliens that attack far-range are going to do much damage (other than hive 3 abilities, of course, which would probably mean, yeah, shotgun sucks against acid rocket .))?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mines do poorly against the alien smart enough to avoid them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, but if placed strategically, like around a corner, the Alien would not know what hit him. Seriously, you bound into the Marine base expecting to find mines, but what about the corner near your hive? Mines are effective with the Marine smart enough to place them =D.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->LMGs do poorly against larger aliens like Onos unless you know precisely where is the hitbox. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, with the changes coming from 2.1, I don't believe that is going to be a problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Pistols do poorly against OCs, Gorge, Fade and Onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, I suppose, but pistols are usually after 50 LMG rounds have been emptied into them...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Knife do poorly against OCs, Skulks, Lerks, Fade and Onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well... yeah. It's a knife, only after you've wasted all of your bullets do you use it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jets do badly against experienced Fades and very badly against Lerks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hum. What Fade is good enough to blink up the the Marine (who is probably making perfect rolling ruler circles around the hive, btw), switch to the claw, and slash? Even if it were, it's only one, and the Fade would have to repeat, while trying to get him again, and now the Marine knows he's there... But, yeah, Lerks are pretty good against Jetpacks, as long as they just keep spiking and don't get in the way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> HAs do badly against Fade's Acid Rocket, Onos and Lerks which are hiding in a good area which allows them to snipe HAs without the HAs finding it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Snipe? Wha?
Any half-decent commander will scout out the enemies for his marines. Onos? Dead after 28 HMG shots... Lerks? I think the Marines are sharp enough to like, move out of the area where the spikes are, you know, or figure out where they're coming from.
Yeah, it's true that marine level 3 upgrades cost more, but does the total expidenture of 2 res every life for the alien team add up? It sure as hell does. Furthermore, the point I was making in my first post is that there's more to marine tech then god damn weapon upgrades, so why are they as powerful as Jesus himself coming through the IP and smiting all the aliens?
Marines need to pay 15 Res for an armoury, 25 for an arms lab and 30-40-50 for each upgrade. With all upgrades that's 280 res
Aliens need 3 chambers, 30 res. To get the next 3 they need another hive, so that's 70 res, then another 70 for the third hive; A total of 170. Then each alien needs to upgrade indiviually, which costs 2 res, so that could be a total of 6 res each time a single alien dies. So if around 20 aliens die an re-upgrade fully brings it up to the price of upgrading for marines, and in an 8v8 game or over even more will die. But the aliens upgrades are still outclassed.
No.
Marines need to pay 15 Res for an armoury, 25 for an arms lab and 30-40-50 for each upgrade. With all upgrades that's 280 res
Aliens need 3 chambers, 30 res. To get the next 3 they need another hive, so that's 70 res, then another 70 for the third hive; A total of 170. Then each alien needs to upgrade indiviually, which costs 2 res, so that could be a total of 6 res each time a single alien dies. So if around 20 aliens die an re-upgrade fully brings it up to the price of upgrading for marines, and in an 8v8 game or over even more will die. But the aliens upgrades are still outclassed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, a non-quntifiable part of the equation is the fact that if you uncapped alien resource limits, and had a team of 7 aliens and 7 marines sit and suck on one res node for 5 minutes, the marines would end up with <b>vastly</b> more resources to work with then the aliens, simply because one 'spender' alien only has 14% as much resources to work with as the commander.
Don't pretend about the res being an issue, I know many of you realise just how fast the Marines can rake in the resources, and how easily affordable a 260 pricetag becomes with enough rt + the time for upgrades. For christs sake you aren't fooling anyone with such negligence of reality.
I suck at commander as I always have, but even I can grab every armslab upgrade as it completes, plus research phase and MT, drop down nodes and gates and TFs and electrify them, and still come out with a good 60-80 res after researching HA to drop down a few suits along with welders and HMGs/GLs/Shotties. Any decent commander can do this without any big "save-up" periods, it's done in pubs all the time and it's no freakin secret.
I don't mean to sound like I'm on a rant, but c'mon.. people are beginning to make up silly arguments that aren't even true.
No. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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2.01 Damage Simulator
LMG (0) vs. Onos (3)
The LMG does 10 damage.
DEAD after 100 shots with 0 armor left.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
EDIT: Mav... was that an agreement or not? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Uranium's fatal flaw is that he looks at what... 10v10 pub games as his case study? Laff, I can't beleive you even made a serious attempt at balanced based off an example such as that.
Anyhow, the reason the marine team owns in large games is due to the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=41573&hl=' target='_blank'>glaring arms lab imbalance in 2.01 right now.</a>
Uranium's fatal flaw is that he looks at what... 10v10 pub games as his case study? Laff, I can't beleive you even made a serious attempt at balanced based off an example such as that.
Anyhow, the reason the marine team owns in large games is due to the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=41573&hl=' target='_blank'>glaring arms lab imbalance in 2.01 right now.</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amusing... because I've yet to even WRITE the number 10.
Made the following addition to my first post:
<b>Addendum 1</b>
Heavy Armor. Now, you have light armor to start off with. You'll gradually get your armor upgrades up to Light Level 3. Then sooner or later, the commander may drop heavy armor. Now you've gone from minimal protection, slowly increased, then suddenly you've more them DOUBLED your effective armor rating. This is what I'm talking about: The marine tech makes such massive LEAPS it completely overcomes the aliens.
Basically, maybe make the jetpack, and heavy armor, have researches of their own. Heavy Armor has to research it's own levels of armor upgrades, but the cost or time of researching and buying HA is slightly dropped to compensate for the increased time sink. Jetpacks at level 0 provide nothing but a jumping boost upwards. More research allows it to lift more weight, longer, and higher.
That's my point, the alien's upgrades hardly match up to upgraded rines even though they'r much more likely cost more in the long run.
uranium, according to ausns.org it would take 4 level 0 clips to kill a level 3 carpace Onos, (But even then it's still pretty atrocious). And I was presuming that the games would be proceeding as normal, with the aliens capping multiple RTs at the start of the round and both sides getting a pretty equal amount of kills, and having more than just one gorge spend his res on these upgrades.
Uhh..? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> You confoosed me!
That's my point, the alien's upgrades hardly match up to upgraded rines even though they'r much more likely cost more in the long run.
uranium, according to ausns.org it would take 4 level 0 clips to kill a level 3 carpace Onos, (But even then it's still pretty atrocious). And I was presuming that the games would be proceeding as normal, with the aliens capping multiple RTs at the start of the round and both sides getting a pretty equal amount of kills, and having more than just one gorge spend his res on these upgrades. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pest, I found the ausNS damage list... that information is from version 1.04, Kitsune stats. Sorry <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> Outdated.
So... They essentially made onos twice as easy to kill in 2.0? What was the point in that? If the rines are getting owned so badly that someone can go onos really early in the game then they would probably lose anyway, and the Onos of 1.4 sounded like it wouldn't stand a chance against an HA train as it was. They've basicly made onos useless. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> (Aside from stomp).
Anyway, best not get off topic...
Marines need to pay 15 Res for an armoury, 25 for an arms lab and 30-40-50 for each upgrade. With all upgrades that's 280 res
Aliens need 3 chambers, 30 res. To get the next 3 they need another hive, so that's 70 res, then another 70 for the third hive; A total of 170. Then each alien needs to upgrade indiviually, which costs 2 res, so that could be a total of 6 res each time a single alien dies. So if around 20 aliens die an re-upgrade fully brings it up to the price of upgrading for marines, and in an 8v8 game or over even more will die. But the aliens upgrades are still outclassed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, a non-quntifiable part of the equation is the fact that if you uncapped alien resource limits, and had a team of 7 aliens and 7 marines sit and suck on one res node for 5 minutes, the marines would end up with <b>vastly</b> more resources to work with then the aliens, simply because one 'spender' alien only has 14% as much resources to work with as the commander. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you joking? I sure as hell hope you aren't suggesting that each alien should get the amount of resources a commander gets off of the same amount of res nodes.
I've seen many long games in 2.01, in which the marines are doing pretty well, holding on to 3 or 4 res nodes plus a hive, and they have full upgrades, but they can't seem to push out of their base. In fact, the few times they do push out of their base they get swarmed by onos, lerks with umbra, and healspraying gorges and end up losing the outpost. After the aliens have gained enough strength, they can usually take out one of the entrenched marines outposts and the game goes downhill from there. Stomp + teamwork can hold out longer than you might expect.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A level 3 LMG shouldn't be as powerful as a slightly watered-down HMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LVL 3 LMG = 13 damage
LVL 0 HMG = 20 damage
Explain how 13 is a slightly watered down version of 20.
So no, I don't think the late game is unbalanced due to marine upgrades. 10% weapon upgrades are not unreasonable at all. Level 3 alien upgrades are much more effective.
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I thought I was the only person alive that thought of hard-coded sensitivity. It's such a great idea.
Personally I would have also given heavy armor a maximum turning speed, it is mechanical. Just makes logical sense, makes smaller alien lifeforms more effective, and enhances the idea of mixed arms LA marines NEEDED to keep skulks off the heavies.
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I thought I was the only person alive that thought of hard-coded sensitivity. It's such a great idea.
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no... no, for the love of god no o:
I use different sens for both teams
Carapace was 'broken' by hugely increasing damage absorption ratings in 1.04
Carapace more than doubled the amount of damage you could take as most lifeforms - now it just adds a bit of armour. This change was huge.
I agree that high marine tech is so greatly above alien tech it is sad.