<!--QuoteBegin--Align+Nov 23 2003, 03:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Nov 23 2003, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--PseudoKnight+Nov 23 2003, 02:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Nov 23 2003, 02:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> TSA and Kharaa are supposed to be different. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That has little to do with his post. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It has alot to do with his post.
The only thing that can be done to lock sensitivity is locking half-life sensitivity. Nothing can be done to prevent people from changing Windows sensitivity settings. There have been discussions about this before.
I think it is interesting that people have described balanced end games as a situation where aliens have full tech (3 hives, etc.) and 7 res nodes, while marines have full tech and 3 res nodes.
People who whine about 2 level 0 LMG clips to kill an onos.....
HAVE YOU EVER SEEN 2 MARINES DO IT?OR 3?OR 4?OR 5?
Man if onos was really THAT easy to kill then why did the onos just run into my base,sustain 2 shotgunners and 5 LMGers with level 3 weapons?According to the maths the onos should have died 2 seconds after he entered!
Anyway, about what you said, I feel I would disagree.
Right now, NS is kinda balanced already.
HMGs does poorly against Lerks from faraway or Skulks from EXTREME upclose. GLs do poorly against ANY alien thats close. Shotguns do poorly against all aliens that attack from far. Mines do poorly against the alien smart enough to avoid them. LMGs do poorly against larger aliens like Onos unless you know precisely where is the hitbox. Pistols do poorly against OCs, Gorge, Fade and Onos. Knife do poorly against OCs, Skulks, Lerks, Fade and Onos. Jets do badly against experienced Fades and very badly against Lerks. HAs do badly against Fade's Acid Rocket, Onos and Lerks which are hiding in a good area which allows them to snipe HAs without the HAs finding it., jet <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ummmm lets see, it does not matter, becouse 80% of the times aliens need to get into close range to kill the marines, by time people are getting hmg's they have heavy armor also, meaning lerks are pretty useless at long range due to gas not working nor their thorn attack whatever it is called, skulks can't do any long range damage besides parasite but thats very very very very low damage, onos don't have any, only good late game far range attacks on the aliens side is the fade's acid rocket, but lets face it, 80% of the time your going to be no more 30 yards away in most maps, that means their HMG's are still very very effective, iv done tests with their spary, and it's still pretty close, and are able to kill <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> something like a gorge <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> /skulk <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> size, and by the game is about to win and the marines are winning, aka SG's and HMG's the hives, only way to try to save it is to attack and rush them, and even if you spawn there, you have no chance in close range as a skulk well hell even as a onos in close range, vs more then one marine, so what I am trying to say is that, in the end marines are total ownage in long and close ranges, that is if they have HA, and even with lvl3 guns, but I am just babbling on, I have already forgotten the point of me typing this..... o yeah close range if FF is off, gernades can own any thing close range, that FF is normally off on most servers, mines are very easy to make cheap by over lapping all 5 in one spot, thus making even a onos dead in one pass, knives are effective on everything, just hard to get in swips, ha's are more effective in pacts and at range from fades and onos, but even in close range if theres only a couple of them at once, and as for lerks "snipering" It's very doubtful becouse of their sheer amount of armor, takes awhile to take one down, and as for LMG's being not effective and having to know "where their hitbox is" on the bigger aliens well all I can say is..... If you can't find a hitbox on a onos..... well then you should not be playing as a marine, and btw a lvl 3 lmg is very very effective weapon, I have been able to kill fades and onos alone!!!!!!! me, by myself, by going to into cramp and high spots where it's hard for them to get to, jet pack helps
<!--QuoteBegin--Hunty+Nov 24 2003, 03:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hunty @ Nov 24 2003, 03:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> People who whine about 2 level 0 LMG clips to kill an onos.....
HAVE YOU EVER SEEN 2 MARINES DO IT?OR 3?OR 4?OR 5?
Man if onos was really THAT easy to kill then why did the onos just run into my base,sustain 2 shotgunners and 5 LMGers with level 3 weapons?According to the maths the onos should have died 2 seconds after he entered!
MATHS IS NOT EVERYTHING.2 WORDS.HITBOX FUBARED. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hitboxes are fixed for next version.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 23 2003, 03:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 23 2003, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 23 2003, 02:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 23 2003, 02:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think the marine tech tree, if a little bland, works rather well and is extreamlly balanced.
Uranium's fatal flaw is that he looks at what... 10v10 pub games as his case study? Laff, I can't beleive you even made a serious attempt at balanced based off an example such as that.
Anyhow, the reason the marine team owns in large games is due to the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=41573&hl=' target='_blank'>glaring arms lab imbalance in 2.01 right now.</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Amusing... because I've yet to even WRITE the number 10.
Made the following addition to my first post:
<b>Addendum 1</b>
Heavy Armor. Now, you have light armor to start off with. You'll gradually get your armor upgrades up to Light Level 3. Then sooner or later, the commander may drop heavy armor. Now you've gone from minimal protection, slowly increased, then suddenly you've more them DOUBLED your effective armor rating. This is what I'm talking about: The marine tech makes such massive LEAPS it completely overcomes the aliens.
Basically, maybe make the jetpack, and heavy armor, have researches of their own. Heavy Armor has to research it's own levels of armor upgrades, but the cost or time of researching and buying HA is slightly dropped to compensate for the increased time sink. Jetpacks at level 0 provide nothing but a jumping boost upwards. More research allows it to lift more weight, longer, and higher. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, the fact that the lunixmonster is in your post screams 10v10 for your case study to me.
Next, HA isn't even that good as you make it out to be, if you played any sort of clan games you'd know that. It's so easy to kill HA.
Anyhow, you may say the technology jump for the marines is huge:
<b>It's for a reason, it's so marines can get the firepower to win!</b>
Once marines get their protolab up, they basically have 2 choices:
Get jetpacks, which triple your movement speeds across the map and your combat mobility not to mention make you fly,
Or HA, which makes you tough as nails, giving you unequaled **** kicking power.
HA is a tough choice, as you need phase gates to be able to launch offensives and protect base, not to mention HA takes 2 min longer to research than jetpacks. HA is less used than jetpacks.
Jetpacks are really nice as they give huge movement advantages for great node control and you can still use them to fight with.
If you made HA have reasearch levels of it's own, marines would completely suck and have no way to compete. The same goes for jetpacks.
Aliens have plenty enough ways to fight kill and maim the marines. Fade is one of them. 2 hive onos is another way to kick the crap out of marines.
I honestly don't know what you are talking about by claiming the marines have a sporadic tech tree, if you ask me, it makes perfect sense.
Online games seem to be only ever designed (or tweaked) to be 'even' at the very top levels of play...thats fair enough...but just about every NS player knows that on pub servers aliens win 60 to 70% of games.
It takes a medium Marine team to beat a fairly crap Alien team... It takes a good Marine team to beat a medium Alien team..and son on.
I dont think I've ever seen a public Marine team beat a clanned Alien team (e.g. 4 or 5 guys out of 8 in the same clan)..but I've definitely seen it the other way round, plenty of times
Uranium, in direct reply to you original post, instead of nitpicking every point i'll just ask the following question: Your entire post is couched as if the marines are owning the aliens due to their 'unbalanced' tech.
<!--QuoteBegin--Timmythemoonpig+Nov 24 2003, 08:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Timmythemoonpig @ Nov 24 2003, 08:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Online games seem to be only ever designed (or tweaked) to be 'even' at the very top levels of play...thats fair enough...but just about every NS player knows that on pub servers aliens win 60 to 70% of games.
It takes a medium Marine team to beat a fairly crap Alien team... It takes a good Marine team to beat a medium Alien team..and son on.
I dont think I've ever seen a public Marine team beat a clanned Alien team (e.g. 4 or 5 guys out of 8 in the same clan)..but I've definitely seen it the other way round, plenty of times <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Here's the kicker:
An excellent marine team usually beats an excellent alien team, most games where aliens win is due to some sloppy mistake on the marine side...
<!--QuoteBegin---_Phoenix_-+Nov 24 2003, 07:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-_Phoenix_- @ Nov 24 2003, 07:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Uranium, in direct reply to you original post, instead of nitpicking every point i'll just ask the following question: Your entire post is couched as if the marines are owning the aliens due to their 'unbalanced' tech.
Yet why do aliens still win more games ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because if you'd read the whole post I say that: Aliens win when the following happens:
1) They manage to stop marine expansion outside their base. A camping fade, several skulks, anything that stops reinforcements. All the marines in the field get chewed up, now they're stuck in base.
2) The aliens gain a crippling victory over the marines at some point. This isn't quite as much of an issue
3) Commanders never explore their tech options. You know, an HMG isn't THAT expensive condiering how damn much damage it can deal out. Commanders always fling LA marines at fades, or ambushes like popcorn, giving the aliens a bottomless pool of res.
4) No resources.
How many times have the marines toted out HA HMG and the aliens turned it into a win? Not very often. Comebacks are possible. If the marine tech was fixed like I say, new weapons would, although being slightly more limited, appear more often in the game to counter the fade / onos ****. It'd give them an advantage, and it'd give the aliens an advantage. With cheaper heavy armor, but a seperate upgrade tree for it, (keep in mind light armor upgrades would be reduced in cost) heavy armor would appear closer to mid-lategame and still allow the aliens to fight it.
Remember what I said in my first post: <b>'OH **** HMGS! SHOTGUNS!'</b> Every alien is scared of the marine tech. Yet every marine isn't scared of the alien tech. Watering them down, spreading them out, and lowering the cost would stop **** commanders from sitting there turtling while teching up, and give them more options, for example, to dispense heavy machine guns to counter the fades easier. Now, furthermore, since marine tech would now have a COUNTER, it'd be easier to handle the threats as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, the fact that the lunixmonster is in your post screams 10v10 for your case study to me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) That's an assumption you shouldn't make.
2) Lunixmonster is 4 players short 10 vs 10. 8 vs 8, actually. Wow 1 player more the CAL standards (or whatever).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Next, HA isn't even that good as you make it out to be, if you played any sort of clan games you'd know that. It's so easy to kill HA.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, so the little clan you joined just to earn an ATi card makes you suddenly better? I see you're earning your elitist icon already. Keep up the good work.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->About the rest of your post<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>NOT IF YOU LOWERED THE COSTS</b>
The marine tech is like buying a Ferrari. You really want one, so you save up your money. You buy some little jalopi to get you around in the meantime. It's not so hot, so you put some money into it to slightly improve performance. After a little bit... BAM you sack the jalopi and get a shiney new Ferrari, 10,000x more effective then your Jalopi. And that leap makes perfect sense to you?
Furthermore, you say marines need the tech so they can win. Mr. Elitist Clanner, have you ever seen what mid-game-ish HMGs will do to an alien team? At level 3 upgrades? They don't NEED the tech to win. 99% of the time commanders just sit there and pinch every single penny so they can give EVERYONE a Ferrari, and the tech tree doesn't help solve the problem either.
If you think aliens win too much, join the Hamptons server. Feel how fast a lvl0 LMG can kill you with some very good aim, or even a pistol for that matter.
Uranium - your post is filled with excellent points, and I agree with pretty much all of them. I have a few sugggestion that might help:
1) Nerf the marine weapons. With the fixed Oni hitboxes, an Oni rush could be countered by one JPer on a ledge and a HMG - so make it so the HMG isn't such a meat grinder. Make a lvl 0 HMG only do 15 damage, not 20. 2) Boost the damage of the higher Kharra lifeforms. The skulk does 75 damage per bite, yet gore only does 15 more (90). For a 100 res creature, that seems pretty lame to me. I think the damage should be more along the lines of: Skulk bite: 75 Fade swipe: 90-100 Gore: 125-150 IMO that would make 60 & 100 res creatures far more fearsome. 3) Make Xeno something that even HA fear. As it stands, a lvl 3 armor LA marine can survive a 3rd hive suicide attack. IMO, lame. Make Xeno do much more damage - maybe 500 instead of 200? (No double damage to structures, of course) 4) Give the Kharra a better 3rd hive long range weapon. Acid Rocket is good, but it could be much more usefull. If anyone has ideas on balanced ways to boost AR, I'd like to hear them.
NOW BEFORE YOU START FLAMING ME: this is just a suggestion. All numbers are up for tweakage. If you don't agree with my ideas, they are my OPINIONS. NOT facts, nor things that I demand be put in NS. In a word: chill.
<!--QuoteBegin--e.Nadagast+Nov 24 2003, 01:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Nov 24 2003, 01:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're wrong. Aliens are stronger in 6v6 scrim play. Your entire arguement is moot. You haven't taken into account leap skulks and regen fades (both of which PWN :o ). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Habeas corpus.
That is a latin phrase meaning 'produce the corpse'. In english - where is your proof? I've seen both marines and aliens win in 6v6 matches - both in pubs and clan scrims. Surprisingly, the marines won more often than the aliens did in the scrims I watched.
<!--QuoteBegin--e.Nadagast+Nov 24 2003, 01:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Nov 24 2003, 01:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> rofl it's a fact that aliens are stronger in 6v6 competetive (not newbie) scrims/matches <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And your proof of this is...? I can say for a <b>fact </b>that I have neon green hair - but does that make it true? No. What is your CONCLUSIVE proof that aliens are stronger?
<!--QuoteBegin--e.Nadagast+Nov 24 2003, 01:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Nov 24 2003, 01:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I feel sorry for you<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you can't give me evidence of your arguments, I feel sorry for YOU.
Now, can we get back to U - 235's post? Perhaps I could have some feedback on my ideas on the 3rd page?
<!--QuoteBegin--e.Nadagast+Nov 24 2003, 03:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Nov 24 2003, 03:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> rofl it's a fact that aliens are stronger in 6v6 competetive (not newbie) scrims/matches
if you don't believe that... I feel sorry for you <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Come on, you and I both know that aliens aren't really stronger, but easier to play...
Marines require less error, but when played perfectly it's just about impossible to beat the marines.
If marines BARELY miss, and the comm is dead on with the medspam, then I'm going to say that marines are close to invincible.
Also, a lot depends on the map; comm chair blocking works great on certain maps (eR did it to you guys), as do phase gates, jet packs, and even a certain extent of luck... all in all, I'd say 2.01 is pretty balanced.
As soon as marines mess up once tho, aliens can play off of that advantage and win fairly easily tho.
Why does it seem like all the matches are decided on who wins as marines? And why does it seem the aliens EXCEL in the lategame in scrims and matches? Seems like marines do well in the beginning, but as aliens start reaching their higher tech such as fades and leap skulks, marines get pushed further and further back. If the aliens let the marines live long enough to upgrade all their high tech, than it's their fault for not winning by then (BTW aliens get fades usually way before armory is even upgraded). If aliens let the marines tech up HA/whatever, they need to go back over and figure out what they did wrong, and how to prevent it in the future. But generally speaking, aliens reach their higher tech way before marines do.
<!--QuoteBegin--PseudoKnight+Nov 24 2003, 07:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Nov 24 2003, 07:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 60 res Fades will help alleviate that problem, Keyser. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In 2.1 fades suck so badly we need 20 res fades right now...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If aliens let the marines tech up HA/whatever, they need to go back over and figure out what they did wrong, and how to prevent it in the future.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why do people accept the fact that it is okay to just survive to end game as marines (if you can hold aliens off), but as aliens it is your job to pressure marines so they can't get to endgame? The fact that this can happen is what leads marines to turtle, and if they do it well enough they can actually push out and win because their top tech can push through the alien top tech, no matter how much structure defense aliens have there.
<!--QuoteBegin--PseudoKnight+Nov 24 2003, 11:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Nov 24 2003, 11:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Aside from the hit-box fix and the res, can you summarize the nerfs to the Fade? I can't seem to remember them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This isn't obvious to someone who hasn't played, but a fade with the air cap is actually a much slower blinker.
On top of this, it is so easy to hit a fade... you realize that in 2.01 28 lv. 0 LMG bullets will kill a fade? (Those numbers are very close to the real thing) Now in 2.1, it takes about 30... it's rediculously easy. And shotguns tear a fade to peices in seconds. 2x as fast as they do in 2.01. You'd be surprised back in 2.01 how many bullets were missing the fade while he was blinking around.
It's funny. I read this entire thread, and every single argument for change is completely and utterly negated by the current form of the 2.1 beta for NS.
<!--QuoteBegin--Delphi+Nov 25 2003, 12:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Delphi @ Nov 25 2003, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's funny. I read this entire thread, and every single argument for change is completely and utterly negated by the current form of the 2.1 beta for NS.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Could you tell us how? Most of us aren't PTs, vets, or constellation members- so we don't have 2.1beta.
<!--QuoteBegin--[SiD]Squishy+Nov 24 2003, 10:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([SiD]Squishy @ Nov 24 2003, 10:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Marine is not underpowered in 6v6 matchs.. nuff said. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not really "nuff said." You aren't saying that they aren't overpowered. You mention nothing about pub games. If you are saying that someone is wrong, then quote them, especially when it isn't the post right above yours. Your post doesn't really seem to relate to the topic.
Comments
That has little to do with his post. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has alot to do with his post.
I think it is interesting that people have described balanced end games as a situation where aliens have full tech (3 hives, etc.) and 7 res nodes, while marines have full tech and 3 res nodes.
HAVE YOU EVER SEEN 2 MARINES DO IT?OR 3?OR 4?OR 5?
Man if onos was really THAT easy to kill then why did the onos just run into my base,sustain 2 shotgunners and 5 LMGers with level 3 weapons?According to the maths the onos should have died 2 seconds after he entered!
MATHS IS NOT EVERYTHING.2 WORDS.HITBOX FUBARED.
Anyway, about what you said, I feel I would disagree.
Right now, NS is kinda balanced already.
HMGs does poorly against Lerks from faraway or Skulks from EXTREME upclose.
GLs do poorly against ANY alien thats close.
Shotguns do poorly against all aliens that attack from far.
Mines do poorly against the alien smart enough to avoid them.
LMGs do poorly against larger aliens like Onos unless you know precisely where is the hitbox.
Pistols do poorly against OCs, Gorge, Fade and Onos.
Knife do poorly against OCs, Skulks, Lerks, Fade and Onos.
Jets do badly against experienced Fades and very badly against Lerks.
HAs do badly against Fade's Acid Rocket, Onos and Lerks which are hiding in a good area which allows them to snipe HAs without the HAs finding it., jet <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ummmm lets see, it does not matter, becouse 80% of the times aliens need to get into close range to kill the marines, by time people are getting hmg's they have heavy armor also, meaning lerks are pretty useless at long range due to gas not working nor their thorn attack whatever it is called, skulks can't do any long range damage besides parasite but thats very very very very low damage, onos don't have any, only good late game far range attacks on the aliens side is the fade's acid rocket, but lets face it, 80% of the time your going to be no more 30 yards away in most maps, that means their HMG's are still very very effective, iv done tests with their spary, and it's still pretty close, and are able to kill <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> something like a gorge <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> /skulk <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> size, and by the game is about to win and the marines are winning, aka SG's and HMG's the hives, only way to try to save it is to attack and rush them, and even if you spawn there, you have no chance in close range as a skulk well hell even as a onos in close range, vs more then one marine, so what I am trying to say is that, in the end marines are total ownage in long and close ranges, that is if they have HA, and even with lvl3 guns, but I am just babbling on, I have already forgotten the point of me typing this..... o yeah close range if FF is off, gernades can own any thing close range, that FF is normally off on most servers, mines are very easy to make cheap by over lapping all 5 in one spot, thus making even a onos dead in one pass, knives are effective on everything, just hard to get in swips, ha's are more effective in pacts and at range from fades and onos, but even in close range if theres only a couple of them at once, and as for lerks "snipering" It's very doubtful becouse of their sheer amount of armor, takes awhile to take one down, and as for LMG's being not effective and having to know "where their hitbox is" on the bigger aliens well all I can say is..... If you can't find a hitbox on a onos..... well then you should not be playing as a marine, and btw a lvl 3 lmg is very very effective weapon, I have been able to kill fades and onos alone!!!!!!! me, by myself, by going to into cramp and high spots where it's hard for them to get to, jet pack helps
HAVE YOU EVER SEEN 2 MARINES DO IT?OR 3?OR 4?OR 5?
Man if onos was really THAT easy to kill then why did the onos just run into my base,sustain 2 shotgunners and 5 LMGers with level 3 weapons?According to the maths the onos should have died 2 seconds after he entered!
MATHS IS NOT EVERYTHING.2 WORDS.HITBOX FUBARED. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hitboxes are fixed for next version.
Uranium's fatal flaw is that he looks at what... 10v10 pub games as his case study? Laff, I can't beleive you even made a serious attempt at balanced based off an example such as that.
Anyhow, the reason the marine team owns in large games is due to the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=41573&hl=' target='_blank'>glaring arms lab imbalance in 2.01 right now.</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amusing... because I've yet to even WRITE the number 10.
Made the following addition to my first post:
<b>Addendum 1</b>
Heavy Armor. Now, you have light armor to start off with. You'll gradually get your armor upgrades up to Light Level 3. Then sooner or later, the commander may drop heavy armor. Now you've gone from minimal protection, slowly increased, then suddenly you've more them DOUBLED your effective armor rating. This is what I'm talking about: The marine tech makes such massive LEAPS it completely overcomes the aliens.
Basically, maybe make the jetpack, and heavy armor, have researches of their own. Heavy Armor has to research it's own levels of armor upgrades, but the cost or time of researching and buying HA is slightly dropped to compensate for the increased time sink. Jetpacks at level 0 provide nothing but a jumping boost upwards. More research allows it to lift more weight, longer, and higher. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the fact that the lunixmonster is in your post screams 10v10 for your case study to me.
Next, HA isn't even that good as you make it out to be, if you played any sort of clan games you'd know that. It's so easy to kill HA.
Anyhow, you may say the technology jump for the marines is huge:
<b>It's for a reason, it's so marines can get the firepower to win!</b>
Once marines get their protolab up, they basically have 2 choices:
Get jetpacks, which triple your movement speeds across the map and your combat mobility not to mention make you fly,
Or HA, which makes you tough as nails, giving you unequaled **** kicking power.
HA is a tough choice, as you need phase gates to be able to launch offensives and protect base, not to mention HA takes 2 min longer to research than jetpacks. HA is less used than jetpacks.
Jetpacks are really nice as they give huge movement advantages for great node control and you can still use them to fight with.
If you made HA have reasearch levels of it's own, marines would completely suck and have no way to compete. The same goes for jetpacks.
Aliens have plenty enough ways to fight kill and maim the marines. Fade is one of them. 2 hive onos is another way to kick the crap out of marines.
I honestly don't know what you are talking about by claiming the marines have a sporadic tech tree, if you ask me, it makes perfect sense.
It takes a medium Marine team to beat a fairly crap Alien team...
It takes a good Marine team to beat a medium Alien team..and son on.
I dont think I've ever seen a public Marine team beat a clanned Alien team (e.g. 4 or 5 guys out of 8 in the same clan)..but I've definitely seen it the other way round, plenty of times
Yet why do aliens still win more games ?
It takes a medium Marine team to beat a fairly crap Alien team...
It takes a good Marine team to beat a medium Alien team..and son on.
I dont think I've ever seen a public Marine team beat a clanned Alien team (e.g. 4 or 5 guys out of 8 in the same clan)..but I've definitely seen it the other way round, plenty of times <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's the kicker:
An excellent marine team usually beats an excellent alien team, most games where aliens win is due to some sloppy mistake on the marine side...
Yet why do aliens still win more games ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because if you'd read the whole post I say that: Aliens win when the following happens:
1) They manage to stop marine expansion outside their base. A camping fade, several skulks, anything that stops reinforcements. All the marines in the field get chewed up, now they're stuck in base.
2) The aliens gain a crippling victory over the marines at some point. This isn't quite as much of an issue
3) Commanders never explore their tech options. You know, an HMG isn't THAT expensive condiering how damn much damage it can deal out. Commanders always fling LA marines at fades, or ambushes like popcorn, giving the aliens a bottomless pool of res.
4) No resources.
How many times have the marines toted out HA HMG and the aliens turned it into a win? Not very often. Comebacks are possible. If the marine tech was fixed like I say, new weapons would, although being slightly more limited, appear more often in the game to counter the fade / onos ****. It'd give them an advantage, and it'd give the aliens an advantage. With cheaper heavy armor, but a seperate upgrade tree for it, (keep in mind light armor upgrades would be reduced in cost) heavy armor would appear closer to mid-lategame and still allow the aliens to fight it.
Remember what I said in my first post: <b>'OH **** HMGS! SHOTGUNS!'</b> Every alien is scared of the marine tech. Yet every marine isn't scared of the alien tech. Watering them down, spreading them out, and lowering the cost would stop **** commanders from sitting there turtling while teching up, and give them more options, for example, to dispense heavy machine guns to counter the fades easier. Now, furthermore, since marine tech would now have a COUNTER, it'd be easier to handle the threats as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, the fact that the lunixmonster is in your post screams 10v10 for your case study to me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) That's an assumption you shouldn't make.
2) Lunixmonster is 4 players short 10 vs 10. 8 vs 8, actually. Wow 1 player more the CAL standards (or whatever).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Next, HA isn't even that good as you make it out to be, if you played any sort of clan games you'd know that. It's so easy to kill HA.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, so the little clan you joined just to earn an ATi card makes you suddenly better? I see you're earning your elitist icon already. Keep up the good work.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->About the rest of your post<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>NOT IF YOU LOWERED THE COSTS</b>
The marine tech is like buying a Ferrari. You really want one, so you save up your money. You buy some little jalopi to get you around in the meantime. It's not so hot, so you put some money into it to slightly improve performance. After a little bit... BAM you sack the jalopi and get a shiney new Ferrari, 10,000x more effective then your Jalopi. And that leap makes perfect sense to you?
Furthermore, you say marines need the tech so they can win. Mr. Elitist Clanner, have you ever seen what mid-game-ish HMGs will do to an alien team? At level 3 upgrades? They don't NEED the tech to win. 99% of the time commanders just sit there and pinch every single penny so they can give EVERYONE a Ferrari, and the tech tree doesn't help solve the problem either.
1) Nerf the marine weapons. With the fixed Oni hitboxes, an Oni rush could be countered by one JPer on a ledge and a HMG - so make it so the HMG isn't such a meat grinder. Make a lvl 0 HMG only do 15 damage, not 20.
2) Boost the damage of the higher Kharra lifeforms. The skulk does 75 damage per bite, yet gore only does 15 more (90). For a 100 res creature, that seems pretty lame to me. I think the damage should be more along the lines of:
Skulk bite: 75
Fade swipe: 90-100
Gore: 125-150
IMO that would make 60 & 100 res creatures far more fearsome.
3) Make Xeno something that even HA fear. As it stands, a lvl 3 armor LA marine can survive a 3rd hive suicide attack. IMO, lame. Make Xeno do much more damage - maybe 500 instead of 200? (No double damage to structures, of course)
4) Give the Kharra a better 3rd hive long range weapon. Acid Rocket is good, but it could be much more usefull. If anyone has ideas on balanced ways to boost AR, I'd like to hear them.
NOW BEFORE YOU START FLAMING ME: this is just a suggestion. All numbers are up for tweakage. If you don't agree with my ideas, they are my OPINIONS. NOT facts, nor things that I demand be put in NS. In a word: chill.
Habeas corpus.
That is a latin phrase meaning 'produce the corpse'. In english - where is your proof? I've seen both marines and aliens win in 6v6 matches - both in pubs and clan scrims. Surprisingly, the marines won more often than the aliens did in the scrims I watched.
if you don't believe that... I feel sorry for you
And your proof of this is...? I can say for a <b>fact </b>that I have neon green hair - but does that make it true? No. What is your CONCLUSIVE proof that aliens are stronger?
<!--QuoteBegin--e.Nadagast+Nov 24 2003, 01:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Nov 24 2003, 01:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I feel sorry for you<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can't give me evidence of your arguments, I feel sorry for YOU.
Now, can we get back to U - 235's post? Perhaps I could have some feedback on my ideas on the 3rd page?
if you don't believe that... I feel sorry for you <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on, you and I both know that aliens aren't really stronger, but easier to play...
Marines require less error, but when played perfectly it's just about impossible to beat the marines.
If marines BARELY miss, and the comm is dead on with the medspam, then I'm going to say that marines are close to invincible.
Also, a lot depends on the map; comm chair blocking works great on certain maps (eR did it to you guys), as do phase gates, jet packs, and even a certain extent of luck... all in all, I'd say 2.01 is pretty balanced.
As soon as marines mess up once tho, aliens can play off of that advantage and win fairly easily tho.
In 2.1 fades suck so badly we need 20 res fades right now...
Fades cost 60 res
Increased Fade Armor to 150.
I couldn't find anything else, but in that huge list, something would be easy to miss.
Why do people accept the fact that it is okay to just survive to end game as marines (if you can hold aliens off), but as aliens it is your job to pressure marines so they can't get to endgame? The fact that this can happen is what leads marines to turtle, and if they do it well enough they can actually push out and win because their top tech can push through the alien top tech, no matter how much structure defense aliens have there.
This isn't obvious to someone who hasn't played, but a fade with the air cap is actually a much slower blinker.
On top of this, it is so easy to hit a fade... you realize that in 2.01 28 lv. 0 LMG bullets will kill a fade? (Those numbers are very close to the real thing) Now in 2.1, it takes about 30... it's rediculously easy. And shotguns tear a fade to peices in seconds. 2x as fast as they do in 2.01. You'd be surprised back in 2.01 how many bullets were missing the fade while he was blinking around.
The fade really does suck for it's cost
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could you tell us how? Most of us aren't PTs, vets, or constellation members- so we don't have 2.1beta.
That's not really "nuff said." You aren't saying that they aren't overpowered. You mention nothing about pub games. If you are saying that someone is wrong, then quote them, especially when it isn't the post right above yours. Your post doesn't really seem to relate to the topic.