Well you see the thing is, is that not everybody has $20 to donate to NS. And for clans? Ha "Vet" clans will almost always turn you down, usually the yare saying that they arent looking for more people or that they will contact you later, which they never do.
I should note I haven't played NS or read the forums since early 2.01 (reasons entirely my own, nothing to do with the marvellous NS). A few people might remember my constant rambling replies and endless... Em, never. Anyways, just thought I'd comment on something I noticed...
Even after all this time, the forums look exactly the same. Same discussions (with minor tweaks since, apparently, clan testing was expanded and Constellation members are now testers too? which is awesome, since Constellation members <i>should</i> be rewarded), same complaints, heck, even the same strategies in the strategy forums. I remember seeing a thousand threads like this during 2.0 testing, and, in fact, this one even <i>sounds</i> the same... Just thought I'd note that it's nice to know that people will always have the same complaints throughout all time, even if testing is opened up a lot more. Feels just like home. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Spazmatic+Dec 14 2003, 08:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spazmatic @ Dec 14 2003, 08:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I should note I haven't played NS or read the forums since early 2.01 (reasons entirely my own, nothing to do with the marvellous NS). A few people might remember my constant rambling replies and endless... Em, never. Anyways, just thought I'd comment on something I noticed...
Even after all this time, the forums look exactly the same. Same discussions (with minor tweaks since, apparently, clan testing was expanded and Constellation members are now testers too? which is awesome, since Constellation members <i>should</i> be rewarded), same complaints, heck, even the same strategies in the strategy forums. I remember seeing a thousand threads like this during 2.0 testing, and, in fact, this one even <i>sounds</i> the same... Just thought I'd note that it's nice to know that people will always have the same complaints throughout all time, even if testing is opened up a lot more. Feels just like home. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Its because ths issues are the same.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mendevell; Posted: Dec 14 2003, 06:37 PM Is that sarcasm?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No it is not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->uranium - 235 Posted: Dec 14 2003, 06:39 PM You'd only appreciate the irony because about a month ago CWAG was as anti-vet-program as you could get. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is true, but I was ignorant. I get to see the inner workings and how things get fixed and tested, which dispelled most of the rumors I used to believe
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ThE HeRo Posted: Dec 14 2003, 07:15 PM Who needs to be taught NS? I had to learn on my own, no one helped me. No one knew what they were doing. Don't expect people to hold your hand all the time, some people do, and that's why they are the way they are. Whiners. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Personally I think this is the way veterans should be picked. The people who have spent the most time in the most inadequite situations who rose to the challenge and were succesfull..
That brings me to my last point. I used to think "Alll vets are bad" Well, its not true. There are as many nice vets are their are nice people in general. There are always gonna be bad apples in life and a tiny pixelated medal and a title on a forum dosen't affect my demenor, neither should it affect anyone...but sometimes it does. Thats just life. You take the good with the bad. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its because ths issues are the same. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bah, gonna draw my half-off topic post into this mess already? Bah bah bah. Fine, I'll bite.
The issues aren't the same... One is, one isn't. For 2.0, there were two big problems: Absence of pub-level (skill-wise) players in the test, and general resentment. PTs represented a very small group of less-than-stellar players for the test, but, of course, the problem was, they were still a select group with stronger cooperative tendencies and above average, if not shockingly sick, skill. Now you have Constellation members, who, while a small group, only have one major difference with everyone else: they love NS enough to put in $20. While that means they are <i>probably</i> most a <i>bit</i> better than normal, they're not far off from the normal mix. It seems to me, at least, that they've fixed that particular problem... NS isn't meant to be balanced for six guys named "NSPlayer" to have a good chance against six guys with "pandas|" at the front of their name, but it is meant to provide interesting, exciting gameplay for a mixed group on a pub, and that seems to be exactly what they have available to them.
As far as general resentment, bleh. If you'll recall the 2.01 testing, it was a <i>mess</i>. First, God knows how many players were lost because they were too freakin' stupid to understand beta testing meant their would be experimentation... Second, it was next to impossible to post anything productive... By the time time I'd finish writing a list of bugs I'd found and some light opinions on balance, there were 35 angry flames along the lines of "OMGZ!!!!11 FLAYRA IS TEH STUPID!!!!1 WHY DiD U DO xxxxxxxxx?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->!!11" (with worse formatting). I can only imagine the horrors as the dev team tried to sort through that gibberish for constructive public opinions. Simply put, duh you want to play, but I really don't think it's for the best... In fact, it's been shown to be so.
I also remember the rampant cries of inbalance even as we got closer to balance, as favorite tactics no longer worked, and new ones were required. I remember cursing galore on server after server as people whined and whined... I remember people complaining that, now that they had a chance to test, that no one was listening to <i>their</i> opinions! I remember people asking for Flayra to log on and use the devtools to test this, or do that (okay, I can only remember that happening once). T'was a mess, a mess that cost players, slowed development, and probably killed thousands of innocent brain cells.
Obviously, in a perfect world, everyone would get to play anything they wanted, and the dev team would get perfect reactions that perfectly reflected reality. We don't live in a perfect world.
That's as far as that goes.
As far as this: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well you see the thing is, is that not everybody has $20 to donate to NS. And for clans? Ha "Vet" clans will almost always turn you down, usually the yare saying that they arent looking for more people or that they will contact you later, which they never do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, I assume you have a job? If not, you really shouldn't be spending your time playing NS. Go get one. If you do, then try cutting out three hours of your wonderful NS time and put in some overtime... Or deliver papers. Or anything, because, by golly, we all <i>know</i> you have free time. And there, voila, $20. 'Nuff said.
Second, I distinctly recall people pushing for online gaming to be considered a "sport" (irrelevant if I agree or disagree with that assertion). If so, it would seem logical it would follow along sports hierarchies... Anyone can make a team. You can have pugs (equivalent: pickup soccer/basketball in the park?) if you want. You can play in amateur leagues, or even sub-pro or low level pro leagues. But, it's generally really hard for a new team to break into that top group... Not because they aren't good enough, but because it's just plain hard to beat the established bunch, who can get the top players, have the time, energy, etc to devote, and are just plain better (team-wise, not neccessarily individually).
So, then, of course, you're stuck with trying to join one... However, you're right, you can't go knocking at their door asking to join. If a top clan needs a new player, they <i>ask</i>... Few (read: no) pro leagues I can think of hold open tryouts for their main team. At best, you can get yourself a slot in a farm team... Maybe, one day, you'll see farm clans. But, until then, it makes sense that they <i>request</i> players. Supply and demand. And if you want in, just make yourself <i>that</i> good. Otherwise, you don't belong.
Please consider the above two separate posts... Don't try to attack the first bunches logic with flaws in the second, etc... One's a reply on a fairly separate topic from the other.
<!--QuoteBegin--Spazmatic+Dec 14 2003, 09:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spazmatic @ Dec 14 2003, 09:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its because ths issues are the same. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bah, gonna draw my half-off topic post into this mess already? Bah bah bah. Fine, I'll bite.
The issues aren't the same... One is, one isn't. For 2.0, there were two big problems: Absence of pub-level (skill-wise) players in the test, and general resentment. PTs represented a very small group of less-than-stellar players for the test, but, of course, the problem was, they were still a select group with stronger cooperative tendencies and above average, if not shockingly sick, skill. Now you have Constellation members, who, while a small group, only have one major difference with everyone else: they love NS enough to put in $20. While that means they are <i>probably</i> most a <i>bit</i> better than normal, they're not far off from the normal mix. It seems to me, at least, that they've fixed that particular problem... NS isn't meant to be balanced for six guys named "NSPlayer" to have a good chance against six guys with "pandas|" at the front of their name, but it is meant to provide interesting, exciting gameplay for a mixed group on a pub, and that seems to be exactly what they have available to them.
As far as general resentment, bleh. If you'll recall the 2.01 testing, it was a <i>mess</i>. First, God knows how many players were lost because they were too freakin' stupid to understand beta testing meant their would be experimentation... Second, it was next to impossible to post anything productive... By the time time I'd finish writing a list of bugs I'd found and some light opinions on balance, there were 35 angry flames along the lines of "OMGZ!!!!11 FLAYRA IS TEH STUPID!!!!1 WHY DiD U DO xxxxxxxxx?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->!!11" (with worse formatting). I can only imagine the horrors as the dev team tried to sort through that gibberish for constructive public opinions. Simply put, duh you want to play, but I really don't think it's for the best... In fact, it's been shown to be so.
I also remember the rampant cries of inbalance even as we got closer to balance, as favorite tactics no longer worked, and new ones were required. I remember cursing galore on server after server as people whined and whined... I remember people complaining that, now that they had a chance to test, that no one was listening to <i>their</i> opinions! I remember people asking for Flayra to log on and use the devtools to test this, or do that (okay, I can only remember that happening once). T'was a mess, a mess that cost players, slowed development, and probably killed thousands of innocent brain cells.
Obviously, in a perfect world, everyone would get to play anything they wanted, and the dev team would get perfect reactions that perfectly reflected reality. We don't live in a perfect world.
That's as far as that goes.
As far as this: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well you see the thing is, is that not everybody has $20 to donate to NS. And for clans? Ha "Vet" clans will almost always turn you down, usually the yare saying that they arent looking for more people or that they will contact you later, which they never do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, I assume you have a job? If not, you really shouldn't be spending your time playing NS. Go get one. If you do, then try cutting out three hours of your wonderful NS time and put in some overtime... Or deliver papers. Or anything, because, by golly, we all <i>know</i> you have free time. And there, voila, $20. 'Nuff said.
Second, I distinctly recall people pushing for online gaming to be considered a "sport" (irrelevant if I agree or disagree with that assertion). If so, it would seem logical it would follow along sports hierarchies... Anyone can make a team. You can have pugs (equivalent: pickup soccer/basketball in the park?) if you want. You can play in amateur leagues, or even sub-pro or low level pro leagues. But, it's generally really hard for a new team to break into that top group... Not because they aren't good enough, but because it's just plain hard to beat the established bunch, who can get the top players, have the time, energy, etc to devote, and are just plain better (team-wise, not neccessarily individually).
So, then, of course, you're stuck with trying to join one... However, you're right, you can't go knocking at their door asking to join. If a top clan needs a new player, they <i>ask</i>... Few (read: no) pro leagues I can think of hold open tryouts for their main team. At best, you can get yourself a slot in a farm team... Maybe, one day, you'll see farm clans. But, until then, it makes sense that they <i>request</i> players. Supply and demand. And if you want in, just make yourself <i>that</i> good. Otherwise, you don't belong.
Please consider the above two separate posts... Don't try to attack the first bunches logic with flaws in the second, etc... One's a reply on a fairly separate topic from the other.
Thank you for your time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Like i said, elitists. If you don't have cash, or if you don't rub elbows with all of the other top dogs/elite, clanners you aren't accepted. Which I find to be utter crap. I think the Vet program just seprerates the average pubber(who at times is more skilled and more friendlier than the guys in the Program) from the oh-so-privliged Beta testers. However I don't mean to diss the Constealation Program, I think that is a great idea. Helping the Devs finacially and being rewared for it(although I believe that Flarya said multiple times that the Consteallation members would gain no benifit from donating).
Although I guess you are right about the same issues thing. I was to hasty in my posting.
<!--QuoteBegin--Boy who lost his wings+Dec 14 2003, 09:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Boy who lost his wings @ Dec 14 2003, 09:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Spazmatic+Dec 14 2003, 09:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spazmatic @ Dec 14 2003, 09:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its because ths issues are the same. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bah, gonna draw my half-off topic post into this mess already? Bah bah bah. Fine, I'll bite.
The issues aren't the same... One is, one isn't. For 2.0, there were two big problems: Absence of pub-level (skill-wise) players in the test, and general resentment. PTs represented a very small group of less-than-stellar players for the test, but, of course, the problem was, they were still a select group with stronger cooperative tendencies and above average, if not shockingly sick, skill. Now you have Constellation members, who, while a small group, only have one major difference with everyone else: they love NS enough to put in $20. While that means they are <i>probably</i> most a <i>bit</i> better than normal, they're not far off from the normal mix. It seems to me, at least, that they've fixed that particular problem... NS isn't meant to be balanced for six guys named "NSPlayer" to have a good chance against six guys with "pandas|" at the front of their name, but it is meant to provide interesting, exciting gameplay for a mixed group on a pub, and that seems to be exactly what they have available to them.
As far as general resentment, bleh. If you'll recall the 2.01 testing, it was a <i>mess</i>. First, God knows how many players were lost because they were too freakin' stupid to understand beta testing meant their would be experimentation... Second, it was next to impossible to post anything productive... By the time time I'd finish writing a list of bugs I'd found and some light opinions on balance, there were 35 angry flames along the lines of "OMGZ!!!!11 FLAYRA IS TEH STUPID!!!!1 WHY DiD U DO xxxxxxxxx?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->!!11" (with worse formatting). I can only imagine the horrors as the dev team tried to sort through that gibberish for constructive public opinions. Simply put, duh you want to play, but I really don't think it's for the best... In fact, it's been shown to be so.
I also remember the rampant cries of inbalance even as we got closer to balance, as favorite tactics no longer worked, and new ones were required. I remember cursing galore on server after server as people whined and whined... I remember people complaining that, now that they had a chance to test, that no one was listening to <i>their</i> opinions! I remember people asking for Flayra to log on and use the devtools to test this, or do that (okay, I can only remember that happening once). T'was a mess, a mess that cost players, slowed development, and probably killed thousands of innocent brain cells.
Obviously, in a perfect world, everyone would get to play anything they wanted, and the dev team would get perfect reactions that perfectly reflected reality. We don't live in a perfect world.
That's as far as that goes.
As far as this: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well you see the thing is, is that not everybody has $20 to donate to NS. And for clans? Ha "Vet" clans will almost always turn you down, usually the yare saying that they arent looking for more people or that they will contact you later, which they never do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, I assume you have a job? If not, you really shouldn't be spending your time playing NS. Go get one. If you do, then try cutting out three hours of your wonderful NS time and put in some overtime... Or deliver papers. Or anything, because, by golly, we all <i>know</i> you have free time. And there, voila, $20. 'Nuff said.
Second, I distinctly recall people pushing for online gaming to be considered a "sport" (irrelevant if I agree or disagree with that assertion). If so, it would seem logical it would follow along sports hierarchies... Anyone can make a team. You can have pugs (equivalent: pickup soccer/basketball in the park?) if you want. You can play in amateur leagues, or even sub-pro or low level pro leagues. But, it's generally really hard for a new team to break into that top group... Not because they aren't good enough, but because it's just plain hard to beat the established bunch, who can get the top players, have the time, energy, etc to devote, and are just plain better (team-wise, not neccessarily individually).
So, then, of course, you're stuck with trying to join one... However, you're right, you can't go knocking at their door asking to join. If a top clan needs a new player, they <i>ask</i>... Few (read: no) pro leagues I can think of hold open tryouts for their main team. At best, you can get yourself a slot in a farm team... Maybe, one day, you'll see farm clans. But, until then, it makes sense that they <i>request</i> players. Supply and demand. And if you want in, just make yourself <i>that</i> good. Otherwise, you don't belong.
Please consider the above two separate posts... Don't try to attack the first bunches logic with flaws in the second, etc... One's a reply on a fairly separate topic from the other.
Thank you for your time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like i said, elitists. If you don't have cash, or if you don't rub elbows with all of the other top dogs/elite, clanners you aren't accepted. Which I find to be utter crap. I think the Vet program just seprerates the average pubber(who at times is more skilled and more friendlier than the guys in the Program) from the oh-so-privliged Beta testers. However I don't mean to diss the Constealation Program, I think that is a great idea. Helping the Devs finacially and being rewared for it(although I believe that Flarya said multiple times that the Consteallation members would gain no benifit from donating).
Although I guess you are right about the same issues thing. I was to hasty in my posting. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then that makes you just as bad as the allegede eliteists. You don't even know me and you are judging me. Its not even difficult to get to playtest. Join a clan, Make a clan, donate 20 bucks, be a super active community member and contribute and become a playtester, it is NOT hard. Please get to know people on a personal level before judging someone by a tiny icon. Please! <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Dec 14 2003, 09:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Dec 14 2003, 09:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Boy who lost his wings+Dec 14 2003, 09:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Boy who lost his wings @ Dec 14 2003, 09:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Spazmatic+Dec 14 2003, 09:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spazmatic @ Dec 14 2003, 09:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its because ths issues are the same. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bah, gonna draw my half-off topic post into this mess already? Bah bah bah. Fine, I'll bite.
The issues aren't the same... One is, one isn't. For 2.0, there were two big problems: Absence of pub-level (skill-wise) players in the test, and general resentment. PTs represented a very small group of less-than-stellar players for the test, but, of course, the problem was, they were still a select group with stronger cooperative tendencies and above average, if not shockingly sick, skill. Now you have Constellation members, who, while a small group, only have one major difference with everyone else: they love NS enough to put in $20. While that means they are <i>probably</i> most a <i>bit</i> better than normal, they're not far off from the normal mix. It seems to me, at least, that they've fixed that particular problem... NS isn't meant to be balanced for six guys named "NSPlayer" to have a good chance against six guys with "pandas|" at the front of their name, but it is meant to provide interesting, exciting gameplay for a mixed group on a pub, and that seems to be exactly what they have available to them.
As far as general resentment, bleh. If you'll recall the 2.01 testing, it was a <i>mess</i>. First, God knows how many players were lost because they were too freakin' stupid to understand beta testing meant their would be experimentation... Second, it was next to impossible to post anything productive... By the time time I'd finish writing a list of bugs I'd found and some light opinions on balance, there were 35 angry flames along the lines of "OMGZ!!!!11 FLAYRA IS TEH STUPID!!!!1 WHY DiD U DO xxxxxxxxx?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->!!11" (with worse formatting). I can only imagine the horrors as the dev team tried to sort through that gibberish for constructive public opinions. Simply put, duh you want to play, but I really don't think it's for the best... In fact, it's been shown to be so.
I also remember the rampant cries of inbalance even as we got closer to balance, as favorite tactics no longer worked, and new ones were required. I remember cursing galore on server after server as people whined and whined... I remember people complaining that, now that they had a chance to test, that no one was listening to <i>their</i> opinions! I remember people asking for Flayra to log on and use the devtools to test this, or do that (okay, I can only remember that happening once). T'was a mess, a mess that cost players, slowed development, and probably killed thousands of innocent brain cells.
Obviously, in a perfect world, everyone would get to play anything they wanted, and the dev team would get perfect reactions that perfectly reflected reality. We don't live in a perfect world.
That's as far as that goes.
As far as this: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well you see the thing is, is that not everybody has $20 to donate to NS. And for clans? Ha "Vet" clans will almost always turn you down, usually the yare saying that they arent looking for more people or that they will contact you later, which they never do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, I assume you have a job? If not, you really shouldn't be spending your time playing NS. Go get one. If you do, then try cutting out three hours of your wonderful NS time and put in some overtime... Or deliver papers. Or anything, because, by golly, we all <i>know</i> you have free time. And there, voila, $20. 'Nuff said.
Second, I distinctly recall people pushing for online gaming to be considered a "sport" (irrelevant if I agree or disagree with that assertion). If so, it would seem logical it would follow along sports hierarchies... Anyone can make a team. You can have pugs (equivalent: pickup soccer/basketball in the park?) if you want. You can play in amateur leagues, or even sub-pro or low level pro leagues. But, it's generally really hard for a new team to break into that top group... Not because they aren't good enough, but because it's just plain hard to beat the established bunch, who can get the top players, have the time, energy, etc to devote, and are just plain better (team-wise, not neccessarily individually).
So, then, of course, you're stuck with trying to join one... However, you're right, you can't go knocking at their door asking to join. If a top clan needs a new player, they <i>ask</i>... Few (read: no) pro leagues I can think of hold open tryouts for their main team. At best, you can get yourself a slot in a farm team... Maybe, one day, you'll see farm clans. But, until then, it makes sense that they <i>request</i> players. Supply and demand. And if you want in, just make yourself <i>that</i> good. Otherwise, you don't belong.
Please consider the above two separate posts... Don't try to attack the first bunches logic with flaws in the second, etc... One's a reply on a fairly separate topic from the other.
Thank you for your time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like i said, elitists. If you don't have cash, or if you don't rub elbows with all of the other top dogs/elite, clanners you aren't accepted. Which I find to be utter crap. I think the Vet program just seprerates the average pubber(who at times is more skilled and more friendlier than the guys in the Program) from the oh-so-privliged Beta testers. However I don't mean to diss the Constealation Program, I think that is a great idea. Helping the Devs finacially and being rewared for it(although I believe that Flarya said multiple times that the Consteallation members would gain no benifit from donating).
Although I guess you are right about the same issues thing. I was to hasty in my posting. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then that makes you just as bad as the allegede eliteists. You don't even know me and you are judging me. Its not even difficult to get to playtest. Join a clan, Make a clan, donate 20 bucks, be a super active community member and contribute and become a playtester, it is NOT hard. Please get to know people on a personal level before judging someone by a tiny icon. Please! <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What i'm saying is that 1)either make it open, or 2) openly say that "we aren't letting you in because we think we are better than you", or 3) don't even tell us, people don't like to hear about stuff that they can't have because they aren't accepted/know by they top guns.
By keeping the beta semi limited it ensures that only serious people get access to play.
There were bugs that would crash any normal public server. But the smaller size of the playtesting community allowed for a show of maturity that prevented people from constantly crashing servers.
I was as anti-private beta as you can get. However, after witnessing how things are actually handled. I changed my mind.
<!--QuoteBegin--Boy who lost his wings+Dec 14 2003, 09:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Boy who lost his wings @ Dec 14 2003, 09:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Like i said, elitists. If you don't have cash, or if you don't rub elbows with all of the other top dogs/elite, clanners you aren't accepted. Which I find to be utter crap. I think the Vet program just seprerates the average pubber(who at times is more skilled and more friendlier than the guys in the Program) from the oh-so-privliged Beta testers. However I don't mean to diss the Constealation Program, I think that is a great idea. Helping the Devs finacially and being rewared for it(although I believe that Flarya said multiple times that the Consteallation members would gain no benifit from donating).
Although I guess you are right about the same issues thing. I was to hasty in my posting. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then by all means, form your own vet clan.
At this moment ANYONE CAN. I hardly think that by allowing EVERYONE that they are being exclusive.
<!--QuoteBegin--wizard@psu+Dec 14 2003, 09:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Dec 14 2003, 09:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Boy who lost his wings+Dec 14 2003, 09:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Boy who lost his wings @ Dec 14 2003, 09:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Like i said, elitists. If you don't have cash, or if you don't rub elbows with all of the other top dogs/elite, clanners you aren't accepted. Which I find to be utter crap. I think the Vet program just seprerates the average pubber(who at times is more skilled and more friendlier than the guys in the Program) from the oh-so-privliged Beta testers. However I don't mean to diss the Constealation Program, I think that is a great idea. Helping the Devs finacially and being rewared for it(although I believe that Flarya said multiple times that the Consteallation members would gain no benifit from donating).
Although I guess you are right about the same issues thing. I was to hasty in my posting. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then by all means, form your own vet clan.
At this moment ANYONE CAN. I hardly think that by allowing EVERYONE that they are being exclusive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> darnit I think I will.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Like i said, elitists. If you don't have cash, or if you don't rub elbows with all of the other top dogs/elite, clanners you aren't accepted. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, Constellation members are elitist High nosed rich folks Who Buy theyre power! Some of them Might even be THOUSANDAIRES! I mean, $20 Is alot of money! Id have to work a Whole 2 hours to make that kinda money!
Seriously now, If you wanna play That Badly, Either cough up the cash, or quit whining. $20 isnt gonna break your bank account.
<!--QuoteBegin--BrigadierWolf+Dec 14 2003, 10:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BrigadierWolf @ Dec 14 2003, 10:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Like i said, elitists. If you don't have cash, or if you don't rub elbows with all of the other top dogs/elite, clanners you aren't accepted. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, Constellation members are elitist High nosed rich folks Who Buy theyre power! Some of them Might even be THOUSANDAIRES! I mean, $20 Is alot of money! Id have to work a Whole 2 hours to make that kinda money!
Seriously now, If you wanna play That Badly, Either cough up the cash, or quit whining. $20 isnt gonna break your bank account. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yah ok, no. I can't get a job at my age and even if I could, my parents forbade me from getting a job when I have school, becase they think it will effect my grades.
Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
Despite the cruel and unusual punishment of not being a playtester, somehow, amazingly I am still able to enjoy playing, and in fact don't resent people who are more skilled than me, or feel robbed or cheated of some birthright to playtest NS. Imagine that.
The line has to be drawn somewhere between "playtesting" and "release". If the playtest criteria is too stringent, everybody will whine "elitism", or "why is this release taking so long". If it is too broad it will be "omg, this is such a buggy release I am going to cry in my pillow now". They have to make the call somewhere and if you happen to be in the tiny percentage of too-young-to-use-paypal-don't-have-a-job-can't-find-people-to-form-a-clan, well, I guess that sucks for you. Life is tough, huh?
That said, I <i>would</i> like if releases were smaller and more frequent just to add to the variety of the game and to not keep people holding their breaths forever. But that has nothing to do with elitism or anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--Aaron+Dec 14 2003, 10:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aaron @ Dec 14 2003, 10:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Despite the cruel and unusual punishment of not being a playtester, somehow, amazingly I am still able to enjoy playing, and in fact don't resent people who are more skilled than me, or feel robbed or cheated of some birthright to playtest NS. Imagine that.
The line has to be drawn somewhere between "playtesting" and "release". If the playtest criteria is too stringent, everybody will whine "elitism", or "why is this release taking so long". If it is too broad it will be "omg, this is such a buggy release I am going to cry in my pillow now". They have to make the call somewhere and if you happen to be in the tiny percentage of too-young-to-use-paypal-don't-have-a-job-can't-find-people-to-form-a-clan, well, I guess that sucks for you. Life is tough, huh?
That said, I <i>would</i> like if releases were smaller and more frequent just to add to the variety of the game and to not keep people holding their breaths forever. But that has nothing to do with elitism or anything. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Enjoyment, yes. I want to see more people that just the,once again, elitists being given special priviliges.
If you are unable to donate and become a constellation member, simply get some of your friends together and form a clan. Enter this clan into the ATI tournament, and you will soon be playing 3.0. If you can make a clan and manage to get 4 scrims a week in, you can get and hold your veteran status easily. I guarantee you that a whole lot of the new veteran clans (some of which are full of people with very negative attitudes) will be losing their veteran status when the scrim requirement kicks in.
If your problem is merely that the veterans, constellation members, and playtesters are going to be getting better then the rest of the public players when 3.0 is released, I don't see how you figure. All you have to learn for 3.0 is the new lerk flight model, focus, and how to use the hand grenade. The core skills, such as aim, dodging, area control, ambushing, and teamwork carries over unchanged from 2.0, and these are the traits that decide who is skilled and who is not.
Practice your core skills in 2.01 while the beta testing is going on, and you will have no less of an advantage then any of the beta testers do.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mendevel+Dec 15 2003, 12:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendevel @ Dec 15 2003, 12:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If core skills were all that mattered then any quake player could come in and make with the ownage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And..?
The beta's are practically public, u can either become a constelation member, or have your clan apply for Vets status, i believe any and all active clans are welcome. Also, being a closed better the standard of play is generally much higher in the beta tests, its great being able to play fair / balanced games without idiot newbies there ruining it. Would suck if your trying to balance 3.0 and then some retard who has never commanded jumps in the CC.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mendevel+Dec 14 2003, 11:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendevel @ Dec 14 2003, 11:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ns_rebirth anyone?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's <i>co_</i>rebirth btw <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> . The thing about people getting better as they beta test is: If you're in a competitive situation (ie a clan) that would compell you to be against this idea....you would just join the open vet program. I mean that's why it's open after all. If you're not a clanner on the other hand, for whatever reason, I don't see why somebody getting better bugs you. You can always catch up and own em later <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> .
Somewhere earlier it was said "And I don't think you will ever find an true NSPlayer with constallation, nor any other total nub. Ba-da-tshh !" You're telling me you want the next version of NS to be balanced by NSPlayer? <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
like i said earlier, our clan submitted to playtest and enter the ATI tournament over a week ago, and have recieved NO confirmation, NO emails of any kind, and gone completely un-noticed.
iv been in this community for over a year, i have skills and knowledge of the game to prove it, but lack of being in a good clan gets me absolutely nothing? no say in anything? no rewards for being almost completely dedicated to this one game for over a year?
<!--QuoteBegin--Boy who lost his wings+Dec 14 2003, 09:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Boy who lost his wings @ Dec 14 2003, 09:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Like i said, elitists. If you don't have cash, or if you don't rub elbows with all of the other top dogs/elite, clanners you aren't accepted. Which I find to be utter crap. I think the Vet program just seprerates the average pubber(who at times is more skilled and more friendlier than the guys in the Program) from the oh-so-privliged Beta testers. However I don't mean to diss the Constealation Program, I think that is a great idea. Helping the Devs finacially and being rewared for it(although I believe that Flarya said multiple times that the Consteallation members would gain no benifit from donating). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What a pile of crap this guy speaks.
If you cant afford a meager $20, then you can always get a clan, i dont remember seeing anywhere in the vets program 'only pr0 clans are accepted'
any newbie team can get in, just so long as your active, i've seen some appauling veteran teams who i would consider awfull at NS, but their there and they do a good job of balancing the game at their level, not everyone can be brilliant. The vet program does seperate your average public player who just plays ns 1 hour a day for some amusement, from other people who are in clans and leagues and people who donate to help game development. If your not in a clan, then i dont think you take this game to seriusly (or at least as much to be concerned that beta testers should get a 1 month advantage over you), and if the case is that you do take this game seriusly then you can surely work 2-3 hours of overtime to earn that elusive $20, or you can get 5 friends and apply for a place in the vet program, you will be accepted so long as you keep active.
- if you have not heard back from the vet program then drop a PM to Hambone or Elven on Gamesnet.
All clans can go and become vets, and get to playtest 3.0.... So uh... make a team.. get to be in beta... it doesn't really mean top players of NS anymore, just means, people who are in clans which are active and that can help try and balance out 3.0.
<!--QuoteBegin--Zyco+Dec 15 2003, 12:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zyco @ Dec 15 2003, 12:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> like i said earlier, our clan submitted to playtest and enter the ATI tournament over a week ago, and have recieved NO confirmation, NO emails of any kind, and gone completely un-noticed.
iv been in this community for over a year, i have skills and knowledge of the game to prove it, but lack of being in a good clan gets me absolutely nothing? no say in anything? no rewards for being almost completely dedicated to this one game for over a year? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Patience is a virtue.
Well, you know, I'VE BEEN HERE SINCE HALLOWEEN I SHOULD GET DEVELOPER STATUS RIGHT?
Say that Flayra decided to open the beta to everyone a few weeks ago. In one of the most recent builds, the server would crash every time someone killed a gestating egg. Now if this happened all the time, absolutely no new players would want to play NS because the constant crashing would take the fun out of the game. Its not all fun and games testing something that is not finished.
Comments
Even after all this time, the forums look exactly the same. Same discussions (with minor tweaks since, apparently, clan testing was expanded and Constellation members are now testers too? which is awesome, since Constellation members <i>should</i> be rewarded), same complaints, heck, even the same strategies in the strategy forums. I remember seeing a thousand threads like this during 2.0 testing, and, in fact, this one even <i>sounds</i> the same... Just thought I'd note that it's nice to know that people will always have the same complaints throughout all time, even if testing is opened up a lot more. Feels just like home. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Even after all this time, the forums look exactly the same. Same discussions (with minor tweaks since, apparently, clan testing was expanded and Constellation members are now testers too? which is awesome, since Constellation members <i>should</i> be rewarded), same complaints, heck, even the same strategies in the strategy forums. I remember seeing a thousand threads like this during 2.0 testing, and, in fact, this one even <i>sounds</i> the same... Just thought I'd note that it's nice to know that people will always have the same complaints throughout all time, even if testing is opened up a lot more. Feels just like home. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its because ths issues are the same.
Posted: Dec 14 2003, 06:37 PM
Is that sarcasm?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it is not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->uranium - 235
Posted: Dec 14 2003, 06:39 PM
You'd only appreciate the irony because about a month ago CWAG was as anti-vet-program as you could get. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is true, but I was ignorant. I get to see the inner workings and how things get fixed and tested, which dispelled most of the rumors I used to believe
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ThE HeRo
Posted: Dec 14 2003, 07:15 PM
Who needs to be taught NS? I had to learn on my own, no one helped me. No one knew what they were doing. Don't expect people to hold your hand all the time, some people do, and that's why they are the way they are. Whiners. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I think this is the way veterans should be picked. The people who have spent the most time in the most inadequite situations who rose to the challenge and were succesfull..
That brings me to my last point. I used to think "Alll vets are bad" Well, its not true. There are as many nice vets are their are nice people in general. There are always gonna be bad apples in life and a tiny pixelated medal and a title on a forum dosen't affect my demenor, neither should it affect anyone...but sometimes it does. Thats just life. You take the good with the bad. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Bah, gonna draw my half-off topic post into this mess already? Bah bah bah. Fine, I'll bite.
The issues aren't the same... One is, one isn't. For 2.0, there were two big problems: Absence of pub-level (skill-wise) players in the test, and general resentment. PTs represented a very small group of less-than-stellar players for the test, but, of course, the problem was, they were still a select group with stronger cooperative tendencies and above average, if not shockingly sick, skill. Now you have Constellation members, who, while a small group, only have one major difference with everyone else: they love NS enough to put in $20. While that means they are <i>probably</i> most a <i>bit</i> better than normal, they're not far off from the normal mix. It seems to me, at least, that they've fixed that particular problem... NS isn't meant to be balanced for six guys named "NSPlayer" to have a good chance against six guys with "pandas|" at the front of their name, but it is meant to provide interesting, exciting gameplay for a mixed group on a pub, and that seems to be exactly what they have available to them.
As far as general resentment, bleh. If you'll recall the 2.01 testing, it was a <i>mess</i>. First, God knows how many players were lost because they were too freakin' stupid to understand beta testing meant their would be experimentation... Second, it was next to impossible to post anything productive... By the time time I'd finish writing a list of bugs I'd found and some light opinions on balance, there were 35 angry flames along the lines of "OMGZ!!!!11 FLAYRA IS TEH STUPID!!!!1 WHY DiD U DO xxxxxxxxx?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->!!11" (with worse formatting). I can only imagine the horrors as the dev team tried to sort through that gibberish for constructive public opinions. Simply put, duh you want to play, but I really don't think it's for the best... In fact, it's been shown to be so.
I also remember the rampant cries of inbalance even as we got closer to balance, as favorite tactics no longer worked, and new ones were required. I remember cursing galore on server after server as people whined and whined... I remember people complaining that, now that they had a chance to test, that no one was listening to <i>their</i> opinions! I remember people asking for Flayra to log on and use the devtools to test this, or do that (okay, I can only remember that happening once). T'was a mess, a mess that cost players, slowed development, and probably killed thousands of innocent brain cells.
Obviously, in a perfect world, everyone would get to play anything they wanted, and the dev team would get perfect reactions that perfectly reflected reality. We don't live in a perfect world.
That's as far as that goes.
As far as this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well you see the thing is, is that not everybody has $20 to donate to NS. And for clans? Ha "Vet" clans will almost always turn you down, usually the yare saying that they arent looking for more people or that they will contact you later, which they never do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, I assume you have a job? If not, you really shouldn't be spending your time playing NS. Go get one. If you do, then try cutting out three hours of your wonderful NS time and put in some overtime... Or deliver papers. Or anything, because, by golly, we all <i>know</i> you have free time. And there, voila, $20. 'Nuff said.
Second, I distinctly recall people pushing for online gaming to be considered a "sport" (irrelevant if I agree or disagree with that assertion). If so, it would seem logical it would follow along sports hierarchies... Anyone can make a team. You can have pugs (equivalent: pickup soccer/basketball in the park?) if you want. You can play in amateur leagues, or even sub-pro or low level pro leagues. But, it's generally really hard for a new team to break into that top group... Not because they aren't good enough, but because it's just plain hard to beat the established bunch, who can get the top players, have the time, energy, etc to devote, and are just plain better (team-wise, not neccessarily individually).
So, then, of course, you're stuck with trying to join one... However, you're right, you can't go knocking at their door asking to join. If a top clan needs a new player, they <i>ask</i>... Few (read: no) pro leagues I can think of hold open tryouts for their main team. At best, you can get yourself a slot in a farm team... Maybe, one day, you'll see farm clans. But, until then, it makes sense that they <i>request</i> players. Supply and demand. And if you want in, just make yourself <i>that</i> good. Otherwise, you don't belong.
Please consider the above two separate posts... Don't try to attack the first bunches logic with flaws in the second, etc... One's a reply on a fairly separate topic from the other.
Thank you for your time.
Bah, gonna draw my half-off topic post into this mess already? Bah bah bah. Fine, I'll bite.
The issues aren't the same... One is, one isn't. For 2.0, there were two big problems: Absence of pub-level (skill-wise) players in the test, and general resentment. PTs represented a very small group of less-than-stellar players for the test, but, of course, the problem was, they were still a select group with stronger cooperative tendencies and above average, if not shockingly sick, skill. Now you have Constellation members, who, while a small group, only have one major difference with everyone else: they love NS enough to put in $20. While that means they are <i>probably</i> most a <i>bit</i> better than normal, they're not far off from the normal mix. It seems to me, at least, that they've fixed that particular problem... NS isn't meant to be balanced for six guys named "NSPlayer" to have a good chance against six guys with "pandas|" at the front of their name, but it is meant to provide interesting, exciting gameplay for a mixed group on a pub, and that seems to be exactly what they have available to them.
As far as general resentment, bleh. If you'll recall the 2.01 testing, it was a <i>mess</i>. First, God knows how many players were lost because they were too freakin' stupid to understand beta testing meant their would be experimentation... Second, it was next to impossible to post anything productive... By the time time I'd finish writing a list of bugs I'd found and some light opinions on balance, there were 35 angry flames along the lines of "OMGZ!!!!11 FLAYRA IS TEH STUPID!!!!1 WHY DiD U DO xxxxxxxxx?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->!!11" (with worse formatting). I can only imagine the horrors as the dev team tried to sort through that gibberish for constructive public opinions. Simply put, duh you want to play, but I really don't think it's for the best... In fact, it's been shown to be so.
I also remember the rampant cries of inbalance even as we got closer to balance, as favorite tactics no longer worked, and new ones were required. I remember cursing galore on server after server as people whined and whined... I remember people complaining that, now that they had a chance to test, that no one was listening to <i>their</i> opinions! I remember people asking for Flayra to log on and use the devtools to test this, or do that (okay, I can only remember that happening once). T'was a mess, a mess that cost players, slowed development, and probably killed thousands of innocent brain cells.
Obviously, in a perfect world, everyone would get to play anything they wanted, and the dev team would get perfect reactions that perfectly reflected reality. We don't live in a perfect world.
That's as far as that goes.
As far as this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well you see the thing is, is that not everybody has $20 to donate to NS. And for clans? Ha "Vet" clans will almost always turn you down, usually the yare saying that they arent looking for more people or that they will contact you later, which they never do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, I assume you have a job? If not, you really shouldn't be spending your time playing NS. Go get one. If you do, then try cutting out three hours of your wonderful NS time and put in some overtime... Or deliver papers. Or anything, because, by golly, we all <i>know</i> you have free time. And there, voila, $20. 'Nuff said.
Second, I distinctly recall people pushing for online gaming to be considered a "sport" (irrelevant if I agree or disagree with that assertion). If so, it would seem logical it would follow along sports hierarchies... Anyone can make a team. You can have pugs (equivalent: pickup soccer/basketball in the park?) if you want. You can play in amateur leagues, or even sub-pro or low level pro leagues. But, it's generally really hard for a new team to break into that top group... Not because they aren't good enough, but because it's just plain hard to beat the established bunch, who can get the top players, have the time, energy, etc to devote, and are just plain better (team-wise, not neccessarily individually).
So, then, of course, you're stuck with trying to join one... However, you're right, you can't go knocking at their door asking to join. If a top clan needs a new player, they <i>ask</i>... Few (read: no) pro leagues I can think of hold open tryouts for their main team. At best, you can get yourself a slot in a farm team... Maybe, one day, you'll see farm clans. But, until then, it makes sense that they <i>request</i> players. Supply and demand. And if you want in, just make yourself <i>that</i> good. Otherwise, you don't belong.
Please consider the above two separate posts... Don't try to attack the first bunches logic with flaws in the second, etc... One's a reply on a fairly separate topic from the other.
Thank you for your time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like i said, elitists. If you don't have cash, or if you don't rub elbows with all of the other top dogs/elite, clanners you aren't accepted. Which I find to be utter crap. I think the Vet program just seprerates the average pubber(who at times is more skilled and more friendlier than the guys in the Program) from the oh-so-privliged Beta testers. However I don't mean to diss the Constealation Program, I think that is a great idea. Helping the Devs finacially and being rewared for it(although I believe that Flarya said multiple times that the Consteallation members would gain no benifit from donating).
Although I guess you are right about the same issues thing. I was to hasty in my posting.
Max
Bah, gonna draw my half-off topic post into this mess already? Bah bah bah. Fine, I'll bite.
The issues aren't the same... One is, one isn't. For 2.0, there were two big problems: Absence of pub-level (skill-wise) players in the test, and general resentment. PTs represented a very small group of less-than-stellar players for the test, but, of course, the problem was, they were still a select group with stronger cooperative tendencies and above average, if not shockingly sick, skill. Now you have Constellation members, who, while a small group, only have one major difference with everyone else: they love NS enough to put in $20. While that means they are <i>probably</i> most a <i>bit</i> better than normal, they're not far off from the normal mix. It seems to me, at least, that they've fixed that particular problem... NS isn't meant to be balanced for six guys named "NSPlayer" to have a good chance against six guys with "pandas|" at the front of their name, but it is meant to provide interesting, exciting gameplay for a mixed group on a pub, and that seems to be exactly what they have available to them.
As far as general resentment, bleh. If you'll recall the 2.01 testing, it was a <i>mess</i>. First, God knows how many players were lost because they were too freakin' stupid to understand beta testing meant their would be experimentation... Second, it was next to impossible to post anything productive... By the time time I'd finish writing a list of bugs I'd found and some light opinions on balance, there were 35 angry flames along the lines of "OMGZ!!!!11 FLAYRA IS TEH STUPID!!!!1 WHY DiD U DO xxxxxxxxx?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->!!11" (with worse formatting). I can only imagine the horrors as the dev team tried to sort through that gibberish for constructive public opinions. Simply put, duh you want to play, but I really don't think it's for the best... In fact, it's been shown to be so.
I also remember the rampant cries of inbalance even as we got closer to balance, as favorite tactics no longer worked, and new ones were required. I remember cursing galore on server after server as people whined and whined... I remember people complaining that, now that they had a chance to test, that no one was listening to <i>their</i> opinions! I remember people asking for Flayra to log on and use the devtools to test this, or do that (okay, I can only remember that happening once). T'was a mess, a mess that cost players, slowed development, and probably killed thousands of innocent brain cells.
Obviously, in a perfect world, everyone would get to play anything they wanted, and the dev team would get perfect reactions that perfectly reflected reality. We don't live in a perfect world.
That's as far as that goes.
As far as this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well you see the thing is, is that not everybody has $20 to donate to NS. And for clans? Ha "Vet" clans will almost always turn you down, usually the yare saying that they arent looking for more people or that they will contact you later, which they never do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, I assume you have a job? If not, you really shouldn't be spending your time playing NS. Go get one. If you do, then try cutting out three hours of your wonderful NS time and put in some overtime... Or deliver papers. Or anything, because, by golly, we all <i>know</i> you have free time. And there, voila, $20. 'Nuff said.
Second, I distinctly recall people pushing for online gaming to be considered a "sport" (irrelevant if I agree or disagree with that assertion). If so, it would seem logical it would follow along sports hierarchies... Anyone can make a team. You can have pugs (equivalent: pickup soccer/basketball in the park?) if you want. You can play in amateur leagues, or even sub-pro or low level pro leagues. But, it's generally really hard for a new team to break into that top group... Not because they aren't good enough, but because it's just plain hard to beat the established bunch, who can get the top players, have the time, energy, etc to devote, and are just plain better (team-wise, not neccessarily individually).
So, then, of course, you're stuck with trying to join one... However, you're right, you can't go knocking at their door asking to join. If a top clan needs a new player, they <i>ask</i>... Few (read: no) pro leagues I can think of hold open tryouts for their main team. At best, you can get yourself a slot in a farm team... Maybe, one day, you'll see farm clans. But, until then, it makes sense that they <i>request</i> players. Supply and demand. And if you want in, just make yourself <i>that</i> good. Otherwise, you don't belong.
Please consider the above two separate posts... Don't try to attack the first bunches logic with flaws in the second, etc... One's a reply on a fairly separate topic from the other.
Thank you for your time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like i said, elitists. If you don't have cash, or if you don't rub elbows with all of the other top dogs/elite, clanners you aren't accepted. Which I find to be utter crap. I think the Vet program just seprerates the average pubber(who at times is more skilled and more friendlier than the guys in the Program) from the oh-so-privliged Beta testers. However I don't mean to diss the Constealation Program, I think that is a great idea. Helping the Devs finacially and being rewared for it(although I believe that Flarya said multiple times that the Consteallation members would gain no benifit from donating).
Although I guess you are right about the same issues thing. I was to hasty in my posting. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then that makes you just as bad as the allegede eliteists. You don't even know me and you are judging me. Its not even difficult to get to playtest. Join a clan, Make a clan, donate 20 bucks, be a super active community member and contribute and become a playtester, it is NOT hard. Please get to know people on a personal level before judging someone by a tiny icon. Please! <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Bah, gonna draw my half-off topic post into this mess already? Bah bah bah. Fine, I'll bite.
The issues aren't the same... One is, one isn't. For 2.0, there were two big problems: Absence of pub-level (skill-wise) players in the test, and general resentment. PTs represented a very small group of less-than-stellar players for the test, but, of course, the problem was, they were still a select group with stronger cooperative tendencies and above average, if not shockingly sick, skill. Now you have Constellation members, who, while a small group, only have one major difference with everyone else: they love NS enough to put in $20. While that means they are <i>probably</i> most a <i>bit</i> better than normal, they're not far off from the normal mix. It seems to me, at least, that they've fixed that particular problem... NS isn't meant to be balanced for six guys named "NSPlayer" to have a good chance against six guys with "pandas|" at the front of their name, but it is meant to provide interesting, exciting gameplay for a mixed group on a pub, and that seems to be exactly what they have available to them.
As far as general resentment, bleh. If you'll recall the 2.01 testing, it was a <i>mess</i>. First, God knows how many players were lost because they were too freakin' stupid to understand beta testing meant their would be experimentation... Second, it was next to impossible to post anything productive... By the time time I'd finish writing a list of bugs I'd found and some light opinions on balance, there were 35 angry flames along the lines of "OMGZ!!!!11 FLAYRA IS TEH STUPID!!!!1 WHY DiD U DO xxxxxxxxx?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->!!11" (with worse formatting). I can only imagine the horrors as the dev team tried to sort through that gibberish for constructive public opinions. Simply put, duh you want to play, but I really don't think it's for the best... In fact, it's been shown to be so.
I also remember the rampant cries of inbalance even as we got closer to balance, as favorite tactics no longer worked, and new ones were required. I remember cursing galore on server after server as people whined and whined... I remember people complaining that, now that they had a chance to test, that no one was listening to <i>their</i> opinions! I remember people asking for Flayra to log on and use the devtools to test this, or do that (okay, I can only remember that happening once). T'was a mess, a mess that cost players, slowed development, and probably killed thousands of innocent brain cells.
Obviously, in a perfect world, everyone would get to play anything they wanted, and the dev team would get perfect reactions that perfectly reflected reality. We don't live in a perfect world.
That's as far as that goes.
As far as this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well you see the thing is, is that not everybody has $20 to donate to NS. And for clans? Ha "Vet" clans will almost always turn you down, usually the yare saying that they arent looking for more people or that they will contact you later, which they never do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, I assume you have a job? If not, you really shouldn't be spending your time playing NS. Go get one. If you do, then try cutting out three hours of your wonderful NS time and put in some overtime... Or deliver papers. Or anything, because, by golly, we all <i>know</i> you have free time. And there, voila, $20. 'Nuff said.
Second, I distinctly recall people pushing for online gaming to be considered a "sport" (irrelevant if I agree or disagree with that assertion). If so, it would seem logical it would follow along sports hierarchies... Anyone can make a team. You can have pugs (equivalent: pickup soccer/basketball in the park?) if you want. You can play in amateur leagues, or even sub-pro or low level pro leagues. But, it's generally really hard for a new team to break into that top group... Not because they aren't good enough, but because it's just plain hard to beat the established bunch, who can get the top players, have the time, energy, etc to devote, and are just plain better (team-wise, not neccessarily individually).
So, then, of course, you're stuck with trying to join one... However, you're right, you can't go knocking at their door asking to join. If a top clan needs a new player, they <i>ask</i>... Few (read: no) pro leagues I can think of hold open tryouts for their main team. At best, you can get yourself a slot in a farm team... Maybe, one day, you'll see farm clans. But, until then, it makes sense that they <i>request</i> players. Supply and demand. And if you want in, just make yourself <i>that</i> good. Otherwise, you don't belong.
Please consider the above two separate posts... Don't try to attack the first bunches logic with flaws in the second, etc... One's a reply on a fairly separate topic from the other.
Thank you for your time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like i said, elitists. If you don't have cash, or if you don't rub elbows with all of the other top dogs/elite, clanners you aren't accepted. Which I find to be utter crap. I think the Vet program just seprerates the average pubber(who at times is more skilled and more friendlier than the guys in the Program) from the oh-so-privliged Beta testers. However I don't mean to diss the Constealation Program, I think that is a great idea. Helping the Devs finacially and being rewared for it(although I believe that Flarya said multiple times that the Consteallation members would gain no benifit from donating).
Although I guess you are right about the same issues thing. I was to hasty in my posting. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then that makes you just as bad as the allegede eliteists. You don't even know me and you are judging me. Its not even difficult to get to playtest. Join a clan, Make a clan, donate 20 bucks, be a super active community member and contribute and become a playtester, it is NOT hard. Please get to know people on a personal level before judging someone by a tiny icon. Please! <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What i'm saying is that 1)either make it open, or 2) openly say that "we aren't letting you in because we think we are better than you", or 3) don't even tell us, people don't like to hear about stuff that they can't have because they aren't accepted/know by they top guns.
You can just take your damn clan, send in an email with your WONID, Forum Names, and some other stuff to HAMBONE, and
BOOM
YOU ARE INSTANTLY IN THE BETA TEST, JUST LIKE THAT!
I mean, how is that elitist? ANYONE can beta test, ANYONE!
There were bugs that would crash any normal public server. But the smaller size of the playtesting community allowed for a show of maturity that prevented people from constantly crashing servers.
I was as anti-private beta as you can get. However, after witnessing how things are actually handled. I changed my mind.
Like i said, elitists. If you don't have cash, or if you don't rub elbows with all of the other top dogs/elite, clanners you aren't accepted. Which I find to be utter crap. I think the Vet program just seprerates the average pubber(who at times is more skilled and more friendlier than the guys in the Program) from the oh-so-privliged Beta testers. However I don't mean to diss the Constealation Program, I think that is a great idea. Helping the Devs finacially and being rewared for it(although I believe that Flarya said multiple times that the Consteallation members would gain no benifit from donating).
Although I guess you are right about the same issues thing. I was to hasty in my posting. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then by all means, form your own vet clan.
At this moment ANYONE CAN. I hardly think that by allowing EVERYONE that they are being exclusive.
Like i said, elitists. If you don't have cash, or if you don't rub elbows with all of the other top dogs/elite, clanners you aren't accepted. Which I find to be utter crap. I think the Vet program just seprerates the average pubber(who at times is more skilled and more friendlier than the guys in the Program) from the oh-so-privliged Beta testers. However I don't mean to diss the Constealation Program, I think that is a great idea. Helping the Devs finacially and being rewared for it(although I believe that Flarya said multiple times that the Consteallation members would gain no benifit from donating).
Although I guess you are right about the same issues thing. I was to hasty in my posting. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then by all means, form your own vet clan.
At this moment ANYONE CAN. I hardly think that by allowing EVERYONE that they are being exclusive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
darnit I think I will.
Yes, Constellation members are elitist High nosed rich folks Who Buy theyre power! Some of them Might even be THOUSANDAIRES! I mean, $20 Is alot of money! Id have to work a Whole 2 hours to make that kinda money!
Seriously now, If you wanna play That Badly, Either cough up the cash, or quit whining. $20 isnt gonna break your bank account.
Yes, Constellation members are elitist High nosed rich folks Who Buy theyre power! Some of them Might even be THOUSANDAIRES! I mean, $20 Is alot of money! Id have to work a Whole 2 hours to make that kinda money!
Seriously now, If you wanna play That Badly, Either cough up the cash, or quit whining. $20 isnt gonna break your bank account. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yah ok, no. I can't get a job at my age and even if I could, my parents forbade me from getting a job when I have school, becase they think it will effect my grades.
The line has to be drawn somewhere between "playtesting" and "release". If the playtest criteria is too stringent, everybody will whine "elitism", or "why is this release taking so long". If it is too broad it will be "omg, this is such a buggy release I am going to cry in my pillow now". They have to make the call somewhere and if you happen to be in the tiny percentage of too-young-to-use-paypal-don't-have-a-job-can't-find-people-to-form-a-clan, well, I guess that sucks for you. Life is tough, huh?
That said, I <i>would</i> like if releases were smaller and more frequent just to add to the variety of the game and to not keep people holding their breaths forever. But that has nothing to do with elitism or anything.
The line has to be drawn somewhere between "playtesting" and "release". If the playtest criteria is too stringent, everybody will whine "elitism", or "why is this release taking so long". If it is too broad it will be "omg, this is such a buggy release I am going to cry in my pillow now". They have to make the call somewhere and if you happen to be in the tiny percentage of too-young-to-use-paypal-don't-have-a-job-can't-find-people-to-form-a-clan, well, I guess that sucks for you. Life is tough, huh?
That said, I <i>would</i> like if releases were smaller and more frequent just to add to the variety of the game and to not keep people holding their breaths forever. But that has nothing to do with elitism or anything. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Enjoyment, yes. I want to see more people that just the,once again, elitists being given special priviliges.
If your problem is merely that the veterans, constellation members, and playtesters are going to be getting better then the rest of the public players when 3.0 is released, I don't see how you figure. All you have to learn for 3.0 is the new lerk flight model, focus, and how to use the hand grenade. The core skills, such as aim, dodging, area control, ambushing, and teamwork carries over unchanged from 2.0, and these are the traits that decide who is skilled and who is not.
Practice your core skills in 2.01 while the beta testing is going on, and you will have no less of an advantage then any of the beta testers do.
err what?
If core skills were all that mattered then any quake player could come in and make with the ownage.
And..?
That's <i>co_</i>rebirth btw <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> . The thing about people getting better as they beta test is: If you're in a competitive situation (ie a clan) that would compell you to be against this idea....you would just join the open vet program. I mean that's why it's open after all. If you're not a clanner on the other hand, for whatever reason, I don't see why somebody getting better bugs you. You can always catch up and own em later <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> .
Somewhere earlier it was said "And I don't think you will ever find an true NSPlayer with constallation, nor any other total nub. Ba-da-tshh !"
You're telling me you want the next version of NS to be balanced by NSPlayer? <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
iv been in this community for over a year, i have skills and knowledge of the game to prove it, but lack of being in a good clan gets me absolutely nothing? no say in anything? no rewards for being almost completely dedicated to this one game for over a year?
What a pile of crap this guy speaks.
If you cant afford a meager $20, then you can always get a clan, i dont remember seeing anywhere in the vets program 'only pr0 clans are accepted'
any newbie team can get in, just so long as your active, i've seen some appauling veteran teams who i would consider awfull at NS, but their there and they do a good job of balancing the game at their level, not everyone can be brilliant. The vet program does seperate your average public player who just plays ns 1 hour a day for some amusement, from other people who are in clans and leagues and people who donate to help game development. If your not in a clan, then i dont think you take this game to seriusly (or at least as much to be concerned that beta testers should get a 1 month advantage over you), and if the case is that you do take this game seriusly then you can surely work 2-3 hours of overtime to earn that elusive $20, or you can get 5 friends and apply for a place in the vet program, you will be accepted so long as you keep active.
- if you have not heard back from the vet program then drop a PM to Hambone or Elven on Gamesnet.
iv been in this community for over a year, i have skills and knowledge of the game to prove it, but lack of being in a good clan gets me absolutely nothing? no say in anything? no rewards for being almost completely dedicated to this one game for over a year? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Patience is a virtue.
Well, you know, I'VE BEEN HERE SINCE HALLOWEEN I SHOULD GET DEVELOPER STATUS RIGHT?